Reply With QuoteUtter tosh!Originally Posted by oliverte
You'd be mad to pay cash for an EV. People order them because 1-2% BIK tax.
They are almost always company cars.
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Utter tosh!
I must be mad then.
Don't just do something, sit there. - TNH
Because they're still in demand and a lot of people want to go electric. Add to the the world issue with supply chains and waiting times with new cars its jacking the second hand market up. You could say the same thing for a new defender…..they're out of my price range and second hand is ridiculous. Just because of that it doesn't make them pointless or not a viable option.
Paid cash for mine. Would have much preferred it as a company car but no so luck.
Exactly. Rich man’s toy!
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The same way as any other car which you or your son can’t afford is whether that be petrol, diesel, hybrid, or unicorn juice
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Not sure that’s the case, there just aren’t many cheap used ones yet as they haven’t been purchased in big numbers for long enough. That and the peculiar market for all sorts of cars at the moment caused by global factors.
My first car was a £50 Renault 12, I couldn’t afford a new car back then either and certainly nothing remotely desirable.
Our neighbour has a Nissan Leaf, it’s 8 years old, she’s not rich.
My young niece has a 9 year old Renault Zoe, again she’s not wealthy, but you couldn’t get her out of it with a crowbar!
Sure, they’re not high performance or long range EVs, but they do exactly the job they need them to.
Thinking back to my old Renault 12, it was crap, but the joy of being mobile and being able to drive to and from work was immense. Camping trips with the girlfriend every weekend in the summer, again, great memories. Not the car, but just what it enabled.
I agree with Robdad, at the moment the numbers don't add up for those looking to buy second-hand with their own money. I'll be running my 60 plate Jag for a good while longer and enjoying it, I wince when I fill it up with diesel but I`m getting used to the cost. I do around 3000 miles/year so it gets filled once/month.......only have to wince once/month then I forget about it!
I`m struggling to picture cars parked on the road overnight with electric charging cables across the pavement........can`t see that working somehow!
For the company car/benefit in kind brigade I guess the EV argument is a no-brainer, for many of us it certainly isn`t that simple and we'll continue to run petrol/diesel motors for the foreseeable future.
I was looking at autotrader last night I bought a month old Volvo XC60 hybrid a year ago and they had older pre facelift versions with 3 times the miles mine has for what I payed a year ago so they are holding their value well
For a low annual mileage such as yours, not really worth the move until it dies and needs replacing.
Mind you, many people can’t afford a 60 plate Jag either, or fill it up, doesn’t make it a rich man’s toy either!
It won’t, and that’s why you won’t see it. There are proper kerbside solutions that have been trialled and ready for rollout once the demand is there.I`m struggling to picture cars parked on the road overnight with electric charging cables across the pavement........can`t see that working somehow!
For somebody like yourself, doing an average of 250 miles a month, you’d just charge it a couple of times a month at the supermarket or a charging hub, you wouldn’t need even kerbside charging.For the company car/benefit in kind brigade I guess the EV argument is a no-brainer, for many of us it certainly isn`t that simple and we'll continue to run petrol/diesel motors for the foreseeable future.
But yes, it was never going to be an overnight change, we’re talking decades before the majority of cars on the road are EVs of some sort.
I bought a second-hand EV with my own money and doubt whether I could be described as 'rich' in western terms. I am quite sensible though, and fairly good with figures. Of course they are not right for everybody yet but there's a sweet spot where annual mileage, daily commute distance and easy access to charging make them absolutely the best option. Loads of my colleagues have also bought their own, and I don't know anybody who regrets the move. Our vehicle fuel cost savings alone since mid-April are well over £2k, plus zero VED and about a ton less to service. There are many who it already works for.
Don't just do something, sit there. - TNH
Agreed. 100%
So on the basis it’s a rich man’s toy every car over 50k is also the same?
If you can’t afford an EV car valued 50k you won’t afford an ICE car either valued the same.
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We had these as Pool Cars in my second ever job and I was convinced that, at the time, they had the best 0-20MPH of anything on the market!
Generally crap though, I agree - We always tried to grab the one Renault 5 if we could!
M
Breitling Cosmonaute 809 - What's not to like?
Mine cost a smidge over £30k, '71' plate. I don't go in for high risk investments so could have left that in the Building Society depreciating at 10%ish in real value or used it for something that would result in long-term savings. An equivalent ICE would have been maybe £8k less so cost will be recovered in less than three years at current mileage. And I really like never having to go to a fuel station, another factor in the decision was a couple of hairy moments when all of the locals had run out of diesel and we made it home on fumes.
Oh yeah, I like the silence too. Hearing birdsong on a country drive, and music on the move has never sounded so good.
Last edited by Mr Curta; 24th September 2022 at 12:07.
Don't just do something, sit there. - TNH
Just purchased an ST3 should be with me next week, no interest in electric soulless boxes.
Watching electric motor sport is so boring like going to a concert with earphones!
Bit like F1, watchable just but nothing compares to the V10 era, ear splitting sounds that travelled through your body watching live.
This sums it up,
https://youtu.be/UpulR1SJGgM
Pretty much this...I mean 50k's decent investment, or BTL money, it was exactly the sort of money we purchased and renovated our first Spanish house for thus in a real sense a life changing sum of money or we coulda spaffed it on a dearer vehicle to impress the neighbours and stayed in Blighty???
BUT then cars don't do a lot for me personally, A to B reliably/ comfortably and reasonable economy, low maintainence costs is what I'm after. They're generally imbued imho with an unhealthy amount of bull/ status by their marketers/ Ad agencies, possibly sometimes their owners e.g. EV ''driving the future'' c'mon it's only an upgraded milk float when all's said and done, they don't take off and fly...there's plenty of 20/25 k cars, like Skoda's for instance, which when rebranded to Audi or VW are twice the price or more, to the unbothered eye they're largely the same vehicles e.g Karoq cf Audi Q3... it simply doesn't compute, make sense for me....I'd rather save the 25K and spend it on a new kitchen and bathroom...but I reckon everyone is different.
Last edited by Passenger; 24th September 2022 at 13:05.
Motorsport and personal car transport are two different things, for me anyway.
I mean, I like electric vehicles, but electric Motorsport leaves me cold.
I wouldn’t want to drive an electric F1 car any more than I’d want to commute in a Group B rally car!
For a private purchase I recokon about 50p KW is the cut over to a 50mpg ICE car. At 5p (Octopus go) for a commuter who fills each day they were very compelling company car or not and 30p less so but I think still can make sense.
Have a look at the new MG EV4 and that is a 25k car with good range and warranty and so the 50k examples are not necessarily what should be compared.
In my case, when I needed a new car and the choice is take double taxed money out of the company to pay for it or by a BEV it was a very simple choice, and whilst it may not be my first choice or car for the cost to me/my company it made great sense and a year in I am still very happy with my choice (Tesla Model S)
Last edited by MB2; 24th September 2022 at 13:37.
Cars are crazy money full stop.
I’m just saying the numbers don’t add up when everyone bangs on about how cheap they are to charge. Any benefit somewhat pales when the cars themselves are so expensive. I’m not a car enthusiast and I can’t get my head around spending £50k on a car - I suspect most EV buyers previous car was a prestige German brand/Range Rover etc in that kind of price range and they never worried about the cost of fuel anyway, let alone the environment.The same way as any other car which you or your son can’t afford is whether that be petrol, diesel, hybrid, or unicorn juice
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I’d happily buy a basic stripped down electric car with no heated seats/steering wheel/giant screen - an electric alternative to the 2CV if you like, and I’m sure that’s what most people would be happy to drive. But that’s not what the car companies are doing, they’re mostly making rich man’s toys.
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Last edited by RobDad; 24th September 2022 at 19:39.
You always need to compare like for like, then the numbers still stack up.
I have an ID.4 GTX, the closest petrol car in terms of performance and price from the same manufacturer is the Tiguan R.
The Tiguan is a couple of thousand pounds cheaper, but circa 26p per mile to fuel.
The ID.4 on our economy 7 tariff is around 5p per mile.
My wife has a Tesla M3 LR, there isn’t an ICE car for the same price and performance that gets anywhere near the running costs.
I think the problem at the moment is that a lot of the manufacturers have been aiming EVs at the premium end of the market, but things are changing. The MG4 as already mentioned looks like a relative bargain, and is no more expensive than an equivalent ICE to buy, but should be cheaper to run even with recent rises in electricity cost.
I hope people don’t think I ‘bang on’ about EVs, but I’ve had one of some sort or another since early 2014, and have experienced the pros and cons of them.
The good news, like your son has found, is that you don’t have to buy one and by the time his scirocco is dead and buried there should be some good used EVs out there for him to choose from should he feel like taking the plunge then.
There are plenty of cars on the road more expensive than mine, so not sure the rich mans toy label applies, mine works for a living helping me to earn mine! 👍🙂
Yeh I understand that and apologies for the raised eyebrows….its just that time and time again the same argument is put across. Cheap electric cars are out there..ok they don't quite have the range or luxury but if you want a stripped down EV you could have an AMI for a few grand down and about £20 a month. Its hideous mind with a 50 mile range and as long as you don't mind doing 30 mph tops. Electric cars look like they’ll play part of our future at some time and it looks increasingly likely we’ll have forget ICE vehicles. I understand they're not for everyone but they fit most peoples usage as long as you've got a home charger even more so, i just don't get the rich man toys statement as there are hundreds of cars out there now that fall in to that category. If you want all the toys, good looking car, higher power etc etc you’ll be paying more whatever your chosen means of power.
Well I am enjoying getting to know my new arrival!
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Previous car BMW ICE (Diesel), now drive a BMW iX. No at home charging so I use public chargers at 35pkWH .
I’m in london so no tax, no con charge, no ULEZ, free charging at low speed at some parking spaces and supermarkets.
I switched to a lease as opposed to a purchase to mitigate the risks of significant increases in cost of electricity, lower range, improvements in battery technology and changes in regulation.
No regrets, it’s lovely to glide places without the noise..
I didn’t mean to be disparaging with the ‘rich man’s toy’ comments. Of course there have always been expensive/luxury cars out there for those who can afford and/or value such things - also dependent on how much of your day you spend in one no doubt! I simply find it ironic that one of the main - if not the main reasons - currently for buying an electric car is the cheaper running costs, and with the cars themselves being generally at the luxury end of the market, most people buying them could afford to run a large engined ICE car. They probably spend the money they save on a few more international flights a year!! (I’m being deliberately facetious there, but it’s quite possibly true!)- I’m actually really glad to be moving into a world that’s more focussed on emissions and the environment. I don’t blame early adopters or those who have an EV and want to convert the rest of us. It’s inevitable and hopefully good for the planet and hence everyone living in it. My beef is with the car companies, not with the end consumers
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I considered that remark to be rather narrow-minded and explained the economics that made it a sensible move for us. We've spent the money we've saved on funding mental health support for our daughter due to the long waiting list for CAMHS.
Don't just do something, sit there. - TNH
'Twas ever thus. I bought a Jag hybrid because it's got 400bhp and makes me smile every time I drive it. Just that really. I'll leave the deeper thinking to others.The same way as any other car which you or your son can’t afford is whether that be petrol, diesel, hybrid, or unicorn juice
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Started out with nothing. Still have most of it left.
After four days the car was returned to him, he was told that it was a "software update issue", the sceptic in me wonders if that actually was the case.
Last edited by number2; 25th September 2022 at 07:02.
"Once is happenstance. Twice is coincidence. The third time it's enemy action."
'Populism, the last refuge of a Tory scoundrel'.
I’ve scrolled back a fair bit through this thread - it’s not one I’ve followed regularly - and can’t find any reference to your daughters health. I didn’t mean to cause any offence. My remarks aren’t aimed at any individual I assure you. I hope she’’s getting the help she needs and feeling better.
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As long as it’s fixed.
Matthews daughters health issues are documented elsewhere and not for me to comment on, but I feel that you are missing the point somewhat.
Your comments appear to show you to be envious of those who can afford to spend £50k* on a new EV. I’m not saying that’s true, just how you are coming across.
In 2015, I paid £12,400 for a twelve month old nissan EV. When it was written off at the start of Covid, I paid £9.5k for a slightly newer, lower mileage model.
In the five years I was running my guest van, the fuel savings more than covered my initial capital outlay so currently I have substantially less than nothing tied up in my vehicle even though it’s probably still worth what I paid for it.
There are cheaper second hand cars out there, just the same as ICE. You can buy one for £5-6k if you want but just as with ICE, if you want better/newer, you have to pay more.
They really are not just a rich man’s toy.
I haven’t read the whole thread and this may already been discussed, so apologies in advance. I live in Northern Ireland where the electricity sectors of the Republic of Ireland and Northern Ireland are integrated and supply 2.5 million customers from a combination of coal, peat, natural gas, wind and hydropower. In the year ended June 2022 47% of the electricity consumed in NI was from renewable sources. Currently there are no financial incentives to support further provision of renewable generation so there is little prospect of any significant increase in this sector. It follows that any significant move towards EV would have to rely on increased generation from fossil fuel generation, which would seem to achieve very little. As I’m now retiring there is no tax incentive to take into consideration so I think I’ll be sticking with the current cars for a while.
Popped into a Harvester to charge with BP Pulse last week. Clicked the more info button in the app and it just said open 24 hours, nothing else.
Got a ticket in the post yesterday for £80. Wasn't even pay and display, apparently I didn't go to the Harvester reception first to give them my number plate prior to charging? Absolutely nonsense.
It hasn't been relevant to this thread until your comment, but is hardly a secret in these parts. I'm making the point that for myself (and every other EV owner that I know), the money saved isn't being spent 'on a few more international flights a year'. Almost all of those have spent £31k or less on the vehicle, several below £20k.
Don't just do something, sit there. - TNH
It's the same in many hotel car parks with chargers although a lot do have it clearly marked. I much prefer a hotel lobby to motorway services as a place to hang out for 45mins having a coffee and using the facilities. I bet there was a teeny tiny sign up somewhere.
Don't just do something, sit there. - TNH
Did you have anything to eat or drink in the Harvester and still have the receipt?
Why I ask is a few months ago I got a similar notice through for parking in a pub carpark. I'd eaten there that day, so rang the pub and they said I should have registered my number plate on the way in. I was able to present the receipt and the charge was dropped.
I can actually sort´ve get my head around this, given time and place. Hope your wife´s knee is coming along well.
NI seems to have a carbon intensity linked to the grid of around 330g CO2 per kWh (2019 figures) so after allowing for electricity transmission and car charging losses probably equates to about 110g per mile CO2 emitted in an EV assuming 3 miles per kWh, after those losses.
A quick check of something like a Ford Focus 1.5T Ecoboost petrol emits around 235g per mile CO2, and that’s before any CO2 used to refine and transport the fuel. That’s also the ‘official’ figure, in real world use it’ll be higher, whereas I’m being pessimistic re the EV.
For the sake of argument, I’ll ignore the carbon sunk into the extraction of oil, as well as any sunk into power stations etc, as that infrastructure is required for other things anyway.
The benefit in a nation gradually moving to an electric vehicle parque is in the reduction of fossil fuels consumed, with the resultant CO2 reduction, as well as reduced emissions at the tailpipe.
EVs charging from the grid also get lower emitting as the countries electricity generation gets more and more renewable.
Sorry if that’s teaching you to suck eggs, or trying to answer a question you weren’t asking, but there is a benefit from EVs now, even if our power generation mix remains static.
Yep the Heathrow Supercharger at Heathrow Hilton Garden Inn is like that. 30 mins free charging if you validate your ticket at reception, then 2 hours free if you spend a tenner at the coffee shop or restaurants etc. Very cheap supercharging (£0.23 KW/H) and still restricted to Tesla only so always easy to get a charging spot. 250 kw/h chargers also.
Last edited by ryanb741; 25th September 2022 at 13:44.
Oh ok. For the record I’m not envious, and I’m not sure how anyone came to that conclusion. Obviously people spend a lot more time on the various fora here than I do. No idea what to make of the various comments tbh I just think EV’s are expensive and you most likely pay more for the car than you’ll save in fuel. Simple as that really. If 5 years ago you paid Tesla-type money for an ICE vehicle you probably don’t think a Tesla is expensive. And where I live you mostly see Polestars, Teslas, electric BMW’s etc - very few Leafs or Zoe’s for example. So I don’t think it makes financial sense for someone like me - or my son - quite yet. Because I’m not into cars, don’t drive that far every year and I don’t spend a huge amount of time or money on them as a result. That’s it, no mention of my family issues or taking offence as other people may not share my opinion. I do think this forum has a higher than average proportion of wealthy users judging by my decades as a member, and sometimes that skews the hive mind.
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Last edited by RobDad; 25th September 2022 at 14:09.
fwiw I didn't reach the envious conclusion.
I'll bet when I open street view later there were 100 signs and I ignored them all!
No, just sat in the car for 20 mins or so to get from 85% back up to 95% as we were flying out and wanted to leave sentry mode on. One day and 12% later sentry was turned off anyway so I'll know not to bother next time.
Can I ask, what does the car do in Sentry mode? Sounds really cool, if an unrecognised person comes near does it advise them to move back,..adopts ED 209 voice´´You have 20 seconds to comply´ sort´ve routine...
Aren´t Tesla, the Tesla owner always able to know where the car is, low jacked if thats´the right word, so I wouldn´t think there´d be much-any margin in nicking one...why the need for such a mode, given it can drain the battery...
Last edited by Passenger; 25th September 2022 at 15:00.
Sentry mode just records anyone if they're close or knock the car and flashes the lights so people stop to think. Idea is you get the number plate if someone knocks you I think.
You can't see where the car is if it's on the back of a truck. I looked a total clown when I was waiting for the car to be delivered back to me from a repair and the driver said he was 10 mins away but the app said he was over an hour away and I didn't believe him.
Location is current if driving or "as last parked" and not periodically updated until next turned on.
Huh, thanks for that, every day is a school day.
Ah, in that case you'll have to pay. Maybe consider it a reminder of what filling a tank used to feel like ;)
Did you pop into a Harvester to charge or to eat and charge whist you were eating there ?
Aah, just clocked your answer. I suppose the whole thing is designed to swerve people like yourself and Ryan (scooting to Tesco for an F.O.C top up)
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