Pre-wiring for an electric car charger, any tips?

[Boss13]

I installed a 10 mm three core Swa ready for a future charger.

Was planning to do this but someone mentioned having too large a cable if not required is also not recommended as may play tricks with the breaker. Not sure if that is true.

Regarding the cat 5 it really confused me as it goes nowhere near the router but apparently it is required. Still haven’t got my head around it but they apparently fit something on the consumer unit side of the cable. Units have WiFi.

[Pennywise]

Was planning to do this but someone mentioned having too large a cable if not required is also not recommended as may play tricks with the breaker. Not sure if that is true.

Regarding the cat 5 it really confused me as it goes nowhere near the router but apparently it is required. Still haven’t got my head around it but they apparently fit something on the consumer unit side of the cable. Units have WiFi.

The cable size doesn’t affect the breaker, if anything it’ll make it trip faster under fault conditions as you’ll be reducing your overall ZS value.

The CAT 5 is for the CT clamp meter which fits around the main incoming head meter tails, this allows the charger to see how much power the rest of your house is drawing, if it see’s that there could be an overload of the total supply it’ll drop the car charger down to a lower charge rate until the total house load drops.


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[Boss13]

Great thanks for the info.

So in theory installing 10mm if you only need 2.5mm is zero problem except the cost? For appliances in general not just the charger!?

Edit: does the cat 5 need to go from car charger to consumer unit or car charger to the meter? Our meter is on an outside wall opposite side of house. Consumer unit is in centre of house.

[steptoe]

Put solar panels on your roof as well.

(With Dutch prices in mind), you'll pay and arm and a leg (more) when you hook an electric car on the charger at home.

It’s really cheap if you charge off peak on the cheap rate tariffs over here Menno.

I’ve posted this previously .. very soon the government will be in a position to tax you on the electricity used to charge your EV, no matter how it’s produced (solar panels etc)....
Anyone heard of the ‘Automated and Electric Vehicles Act 2018’. Some of the act came into force in April. It is now illegal to sell a car charging point that cannot send and receive data.... the devil is in the detail. At the moment there is no way of knowing how you use your electricity, heating, lighting or charging your car. The car charging point will let ‘someone’ know how much electricity is being consumed by your car (even if you produce all the electricity yourself). This means the electric used to power your car could be taxed.... why else would they want to know this very specific usage. They’ll need to replace the fuel duty lost on fossil fuels somehow.

[Chris_in_the_UK]

I’ve posted this previously .. very soon the government will be in a position to tax you on the electricity used to charge your EV, no matter how it’s produced (solar panels etc)....
Anyone heard of the ‘Automated and Electric Vehicles Act 2018’. Some of the act came into force in April. It is now illegal to sell a car charging point that cannot send and receive data.... the devil is in the detail. At the moment there is no way of knowing how you use your electricity, heating, lighting or charging your car. The car charging point will let ‘someone’ know how much electricity is being consumed by your car (even if you produce all the electricity yourself). This means the electric used to power your car could be taxed.... why else would they want to know this very specific usage. They’ll need to replace the fuel duty lost on fossil fuels somehow.

I did suggest earlier that the loss of ICE fuel duty would come back to EV usage.....

[Kingstepper]

I’ve posted this previously .. very soon the government will be in a position to tax you on the electricity used to charge your EV, no matter how it’s produced (solar panels etc)....
Anyone heard of the ‘Automated and Electric Vehicles Act 2018’. Some of the act came into force in April. It is now illegal to sell a car charging point that cannot send and receive data.... the devil is in the detail. At the moment there is no way of knowing how you use your electricity, heating, lighting or charging your car. The car charging point will let ‘someone’ know how much electricity is being consumed by your car (even if you produce all the electricity yourself). This means the electric used to power your car could be taxed.... why else would they want to know this very specific usage. They’ll need to replace the fuel duty lost on fossil fuels somehow.

Couple of issues I’ve thought of: -

The householder will be paying for the electricity - will they have to identify and apportion the cost to individual cars or can they somehow be identified by the system?

How will the system cope with so-called granny chargers?

[Tooks]

I’ve posted this previously .. very soon the government will be in a position to tax you on the electricity used to charge your EV, no matter how it’s produced (solar panels etc)....
Anyone heard of the ‘Automated and Electric Vehicles Act 2018’. Some of the act came into force in April. It is now illegal to sell a car charging point that cannot send and receive data.... the devil is in the detail. At the moment there is no way of knowing how you use your electricity, heating, lighting or charging your car. The car charging point will let ‘someone’ know how much electricity is being consumed by your car (even if you produce all the electricity yourself). This means the electric used to power your car could be taxed.... why else would they want to know this very specific usage. They’ll need to replace the fuel duty lost on fossil fuels somehow.

You’ve posted this before, and it’s still wrong.

The requirement to have a data connection fitted in conjunction with your vehicle charging equipment only applies to those where your taking a grant to part fund it.

This isn’t new, whilst they dropped the requirement for a while, it was also a condition when they launched the OLEV Grant back in the day.

I can go and buy an EVSE privately today and fit it and it does not need a data connection, legally or otherwise.

Now, of course the Govt are going to tax electricity used for road travel at some point, it’d be daft to assume otherwise, and it’s already done via public charge points at the full VAT rate. For now, they’re trying to encourage people to switch to EVs so I think it’ll be a while before they start punishing EV adoption.

Far more likely they’ll start to raise taxation on fossil fuels once alternative options are in place.

[steptoe]

You’ve posted this before, and it’s still wrong.

The requirement to have a data connection fitted in conjunction with your vehicle charging equipment only applies to those where your taking a grant to part fund it.

But it's not wrong, is it. It's not misinformation.
If you want a grant you have to have the the charger fitted that sends/transmits data.

You may be able to go independent, pay the whole cost of the charger and installment, for the moment, but do you not think they'll change that retrospectively when they start to charge for the electricity used solely in EV's .

All i'm doing is pointing out the current statutory rules regarding charging points (which never gets mentioned), and the potential costs down the line and how they'll be extracted from EV users, regardless of how you make (solar panels) and store electricty (power walls etc).

Forewarned is forearmed.

[steptoe]

Couple of issues I’ve thought of: -

The householder will be paying for the electricity - will they have to identify and apportion the cost to individual cars or can they somehow be identified by the system?

How will the system cope with so-called granny chargers?

At the moment it's the EV charging point that provides the information.
Much like a smart meter currently provides the information to the supplier (if you're lucky :D).
I have no idea if they will be capable of identifying individual vehicles in the future.

[Captain Morgan]

The onboard charger is a maximum of 7kw and the consumer unit has a 32amp trip, why are you so sure that the battery will somehow be over charged such that it’s going to bypass all the fail safes and spontaneously combust?

The failsafes are, battery temperature and voltage thresholds, my comments are concerned with fault conditions, as I said earlier cars will catch fire, I haven’t got the MTBF data but I could get it, if they were completely safe they the aircraft rules would be different.

You are aware that petrol is combustible and that ice fires happen today?

[Tooks]

But it's not wrong, is it. It's not misinformation.
If you want a grant you have to have the the charger fitted that sends/transmits data.

You may be able to go independent, pay the whole cost of the charger and installment, for the moment, but do you not think they'll change that retrospectively when they start to charge for the electricity used solely in EV's .

All i'm doing is pointing out the current statutory rules regarding charging points (which never gets mentioned), and the potential costs down the line and how they'll be extracted from EV users, regardless of how you make (solar panels) and store electricty (power walls etc).

Forewarned is forearmed.

You said ‘it is now illegal to sell a car charging point that cannot send and receive data’.

That’s just incorrect I’m afraid.

It’s not just a case of you ‘may’ be able to go independent around your EVSE install, you can, and for the same or lower cost than taking the grant.

There are long lead times on grant funded installs, and the installers don’t get paid for months, I contacted a local electrician who sourced and supplied everything I needed and for a few hundred quid less than a grant install.

Everybody knows that increased EV taxation will happen, if the only reason anybody is thinking of switching to an EV is to save money, then they’re right to think a bit more long term.

There’s enough misinformation and scaremongering around about EVs, we don’t need any more please.

[Tooks]

Couple of issues I’ve thought of: -

The householder will be paying for the electricity - will they have to identify and apportion the cost to individual cars or can they somehow be identified by the system?

How will the system cope with so-called granny chargers?

I think it’s fair to say that we don’t yet know when, how or how much EVs will be taxed down the line. But, it’s fair to assume they will be.

Each EV does have a unique identifier that is exchanged with EVSE charging stations, but not dumb 3 pin sockets, so it should be possible to identify individual vehicles in the way you describe.

I’d have thought the easiest way would be to go to road pricing using the extensive ANPR system, then variable rates could be charged for vehicles dependent on fuel type and time of day/location etc. Those who use the roads more then pay more.

That would be sensible, which means it’ll probably never happen.

The Government will need to be in carrot mode for EVs for a while yet I’d have thought, if the feedback on here is anything to by anyway.

[steptoe]

You said ‘it is now illegal to sell a car charging point that cannot send and receive data’.

That’s just incorrect I’m afraid.

.

It's not. It's been in legislation since April of this year.

Who inforces it i don't know.

[Dave+63]

I think it’s fair to say that we don’t yet know when, how or how much EVs will be taxed down the line. But, it’s fair to assume they will be.

Everybody with half a brain knows that EVs will be taxed, probably at least as much as ICE are today.


’

I’d have thought the easiest way would be to go to road pricing using the extensive ANPR system, then variable rates could be charged for vehicles dependent on fuel type and time of day/location etc. Those who use the roads more then pay more.

Far easier I would have thought, to use the telematics are fitted to all new cars these days. These apps where we can see things about our cars aren’t really fit our benefit although they are promoted as such.

[Tooks]

It's not. It's been in legislation since April of this year.

Who inforces it i don't know.

Stop it, please.

The data connection requirement is just a condition of the grant.

Nobody needs to enforce anything for privately funded installs, as it’s not illegal.

https://www.zap-map.com/grant-backed...must-be-smart/

I happen to think ‘smart chargers’ are a good thing, but they are categorically not a legal requirement and you can fit a ‘dumb’ charger if that’s your preference.

[bomberman]

As some have mentioned above, this is part of the OLEV scheme:

https://www.ohme-ev.com/olev-guide

The government announced that from July 2019, all new EV chargepoints being installed must use innovative ‘smart’ technology. This means they must be able to be remotely accessed, and capable of receiving, interpreting and reacting to a signal. Smart charging helps reduce demand on the grid by allowing EV drivers to charge at off-peak hours, often at a better rate.

B

[adrianw]

You are aware that petrol is combustible and that ice fires happen today?

Are you aware that petrol fires can be put out, I think you missed my point.

[Captain Morgan]

Are you aware that petrol fires can be put out, I think you missed my point.

If you meant that ev battery fires were more difficult to address than ice fires but didn’t state that, I think you made your point poorly.

You might be interested to know there are options to deal with battery fires, this being one.

[adrianw]

If you meant that ev battery fires were more difficult to address than ice fires but didn’t state that, I think you made your point poorly.

You might be interested to know there are options to deal with battery fires, this being one.

My point was, people are charging and storing electric cars in integral garages, people have never stored batteries in their houses in these volumes before and are unaware of the huge risks. if the batteries do catch alight under fault conditions it would be impossible to extinguish, with a petrol fire at least they can use foam if they are quick enough, We have an I-pace, it doesn't go near the house to charge.

I import lithium batteries in large quantities and export devices incorporating them, here are the rules for aircraft, have a read https://www.iata.org/contentassets/0...ument-2020.pdf

There are going to be accidents, the rules are not keeping up with technology.

[jaytip]

How many accidents of this type have been recorded so far?

[Chris_in_the_UK]

If you meant that ev battery fires were more difficult to address than ice fires but didn’t state that, I think you made your point poorly.

You might be interested to know there are options to deal with battery fires, this being one.

Lighting a fire under an EV which then involves the vehicle is very different to a runaway battery fire - vehicle fires represent a serious hazard to the emergency services.

[Captain Morgan]

My point was, people are charging and storing electric cars in integral garages, people have never stored batteries in their houses in these volumes before and are unaware of the huge risks. if the batteries do catch alight under fault conditions it would be impossible to extinguish, with a petrol fire at least they can use foam if they are quick enough, We have an I-pace, it doesn't go near the house to charge.

I import lithium batteries in large quantities and export devices incorporating them, here are the rules for aircraft, have a read https://www.iata.org/contentassets/0...ument-2020.pdf

There are going to be accidents, the rules are not keeping up with technology.

I acknowledge that a ev fire in a garage is likely to be devastating and if this was your point I agree, although it wasn’t clear from your earlier posts. I think it’s difficult to estimate any difference in risk between ice and ev fires though I suspect statistically less ice cars would ‘spontaneously combust’ in the middle of the night.

If I had a ev would I charge it in the garage, no, I don’t have the room to for one, but our drive is so small that I suspect if a charging fault caused fire occurred it might make little difference.

I don’t keep a fire extinguisher in the car, I do in the home, I wonder how many have neither?

That said I couldn’t find any meaningful stats on ev fires while charging so it’s difficult to quantity the size of risk we are discussing, the information I’v seen indicates it’s quite hard work to get the battery packs to ignite. I agree if they do they are currently more difficult to deal with that a ice fire. It is another area where we play catch up as technology shifts.

For me it’s about understanding the size of, increase of or change in nature that this new tech brings.

[Dave+63]

All the research into EV battery fires due to thermal runaway are concerned with ultra rapid charging, slow charging at home at a maximum of 7kw isn’t going to cause thermal runaway as the batteries won’t get that hot.

If, somehow, the charger failed and caused the battery to draw more current, the 32amp breaker should trip (just over 7kw). If this failed too, the main 100 amp breaker should trip (approx 22kw). Neither of these power draws are enough to cause thermal runaway in a battery pack.

In my case, and I charge outside anyway at the garage 50yards from the house, I’ve a 32amp trip on the garage consumer, a 50amp main trip on the garage consumer, another 50amp trip at the house consumer and the main 100amp breaker.

I’m pretty confident that my battery pack won’t spontaneously combust.

[Captain Morgan]

Lighting a fire under an EV which then involves the vehicle is very different to a runaway battery fire - vehicle fires represent a serious hazard to the emergency services.

I think you might have missed my point, runaway battery fires are difficult to recreate, as I understood the oil fire under the car in my video was to get the packs to a point they simulate a runaway battery fire.

The smother blankets are one of the ways of dealing with them by denying the fire oxygen and a safer way for emergency services to deal with them.

Edit: having rewatched the video it clearly states the point where thermal runaway is occurring before the blanket is applied and also shows where it reoccurs when removed.

[bomberman]

Quick Google search shows some stats.

https://insideevs.com/news/501729/nu...le-fires-2020/

https://www.fleetnews.co.uk/news/man...t-rate-for-evs

B

[Captain Morgan]

Quick Google search shows some stats.

https://insideevs.com/news/501729/nu...le-fires-2020/

https://www.fleetnews.co.uk/news/man...t-rate-for-evs

B

TBF I found the latter link but they want me to deselect cookies from each of there ad providers individually, so they were discounted

[Captain Morgan]

Lighting a fire under an EV which then involves the vehicle is very different to a runaway battery fire - vehicle fires represent a serious hazard to the emergency services.

I think you might have missed my point, runaway battery fires are difficult to recreate, as I understood the oil fire under the car in my video was to get the packs to a point they simulate a runaway battery fire.

The smother blankets are one of the ways of dealing with them by denying the fire oxygen and a safer way for emergency services to deal with them.

Edit: having rewatched the video it clearly states the point where thermal runaway is occurring before the blanket is applied and also shows where it reoccurs when removed.

Just checking if you’ve re-watched the video showing it’s recreating runaway batteries yet?

[Montybaber]

Do most chargers include PEN fault detection devices now?

[jaytip]

I don’t want to start a dedicated thread, so I’ll just slightly hijack this one (sorry)
Can any of the EV owners on here recommend a charging unit? I want a tethered 7 kWh charger. Truth is I have no idea of cost or who the better companies are.
I’m taking delivery of an EV in a week or so, so I need to pull my finger out on this one.

[Dave+63]

You’re better off with untethered as that will allow any EV to charge. Whilst type 2 seems to be standard these days, it may not always be so.

I have a tethered charger for the Nissan but will need to replace it if I change or add another vehicle as it’s a type 1.

I do have an untethered charge point ready to fit when necessary.

[jaytip]

You’re better off with untethered as that will allow any EV to charge. Whilst type 2 seems to be standard these days, it may not always be so.

I have a tethered charger for the Nissan but will need to replace it if I change or add another vehicle as it’s a type 1.

I do have an untethered charge point ready to fit when necessary.

I just preferred the idea of tethered as it saves faffing about getting charging leads out of the boot every time.

[Tooks]

I don’t want to start a dedicated thread, so I’ll just slightly hijack this one (sorry)
Can any of the EV owners on here recommend a charging unit? I want a tethered 7 kWh charger. Truth is I have no idea of cost or who the better companies are.
I’m taking delivery of an EV in a week or so, so I need to pull my finger out on this one.

I think there’s quite a lead time on the partially grant funded ones at the moment, I’m pretty sure you’ll struggle to get one installed before your car arrives.

You could buy an EVSE privately, and get it installed by an electrician to the code perhaps?

Or get them to install a 32A commando socket and then buy an Ohme unit?

[jaytip]

I think there’s quite a lead time on the partially grant funded ones at the moment, I’m pretty sure you’ll struggle to get one installed before your car arrives.

You could buy an EVSE privately, and get it installed by an electrician to the code perhaps?

Or get them to install a 32A commando socket and then buy an Ohme unit?

I may have to the second route if I want something installed faster as I don’t have a smart meter fitted at home. Although having said that, I believe I need a smart meter in order to take advantage of an EV tariff if I’m not mistaken.

[Tooks]

I may have to the second route if I want something installed faster as I don’t have a smart meter fitted at home. Although having said that, I believe I need a smart meter in order to take advantage of an EV tariff if I’m not mistaken.

Not necessarily, a smart meter might be a condition of the electricity tariff you’re on (Octopus want you on one to get the cheapest rates) but if you’ve got an off peak tariff period such as economy 7 or Octopus Go, then a smart EVSE like the Ohme box can do something similar as well.

Or, you can set a charging schedule using the car (assuming Skoda have sorted that) to charge at the off peak hours.

I don’t have a great 3G/4G signal where I live, so I use my Ohme box as a ‘dumb’ charger, but it’s capable of a lot.

Personally, and because we use a lot of electricity during the day, I just went for the cheapest 24/7 tariff I could find then I can charge both our EVs whenever I want which is more difficult to do in the small off peak window.

[stuie-t]

I have a tethered pod point charging point at my house, I also didn’t want the faff of getting the charging cables out each time we wanted to charge either of our EVs. If you get a type 2 plug that will deal with most new EVs now. They will quote you 6 weeks or so for an install but will do it sooner if you have a car coming.


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