Reply With QuoteJust finished reading this.
A manufacturer pulling the wool over their customers eyes yet again.
Good article here:
https://perezcope.com/2021/08/08/pan...6#comment-9741
Just finished reading this.
A manufacturer pulling the wool over their customers eyes yet again.
A non-manufacturer.Originally Posted by Sinnlover
Don't hold your breath for Hodinkee & Co to put up a story about this.
Mustn't bite the hand...
I thought this was common knowledge? I’m sure this has come out before.
I do love their watches, but those movements and the prices they ask. Hilarious!
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Sad to read about the decline of panerai and all the smoke and mirrors in the watch industry ,The watch media is in a very cosy relationship with the big watch makers and rarely say anything to rock the boat
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He does some amazing research, the kind of investigative stuff Hodinkee et al should be doing.
The number of times he’s caught Panerai out is unbelievable. He’s even proven they have posted pictures of fakes on their own account.
I believe they managed to get him banned from Instagram but it was later restored.
First heard about this on the time teller YT channel. I believe he contacted Panerai about this and at first they said it was all in-house, but then later changed their story and admitted it wasnt all in-house.
If you wanted to buy a well made oversized watch just get a U Boat for considerably less and save your time and energy worrying about all this stuff.
I agree. Jose's dedication and results are impressive. I do find Panerai's reaction, or perhaps lack of action/interaction a shame.
I'm a big fan of Panerai. I love the watches (after a decade or so of standing on the side lines), have nothing but nice things to say about the team at the Bond Street Boutique and their HO 'support' and the Paneristi are a great group of enthusiasts - just like TZ-UK when we're on form.
What does bother me is that Panerai don't seed to have learned from the Brooklyn Bridge fiasco. They aren't taking the piss in the same way, but I do think they have become a bit too off-brand and penny pinching. The Due collection had a lot going for it as a way to expand the appeal to those who can't carry off a conventional Panerai behemoth - however the low water resistance was so off-brand. Then the snap on case backs and spring bars... If you're doing luxury then it's the details that matter, and then the downgrading of movements: the basic 8 day in the Bettarini models isn't a patch on the P2002 based models and is very basic and crude compared to the P3000 too. Then the downgrading of the P9000 models to P900 and then a downgrading of the P9000 itself. Topped with the latest chronograph models with just 42 hours PR and leasding to the Perezcope coverage. I love the look of the new chronos but without being too snobby the movements are a deal breaker for me.
I understood that when Jean-Marc Pontroue took over as CEO his strategy was to reduce production, reduce distribution with a focus on lux brand experience and move thing up market. That's luxury in action. However, it seems that a number of cynical moves have been made and I find little interest in latest models.
The irony of the movement debate is personally I think they have put out some amazing movements in the past. The P3000, P9000, P2002 and their respective derivatives. I'm not bothered about their development/production by some other part of the group, they are Panerai exclusive movements with some great features. The most notable being the Regatta Timer and the Equation of Time. Both swanky complications in robust movements in watches that you can wear day in and day out, including sports like sailing, kayaking, snorkeling and hard core desk diving.
To me the sweet spot of Panerai is summed up by some of these...
To be fair Perezscope hates Panerai and is always looking for a mud sling at them but no denying there’s a bit of smoke and mirrors. I love them but stick to the true classics
RIAC
What I don’t understand is why don’t the turn to JLC for movement production if they are all part of the same group? If they are using Baume for case production why not use a sister company with a long history of manufacturing movements?
I love them too, but my interest is generally limited to the pre sandwich dial, 44mm models. These were unashamedly ETA movements with solid (pre-A to D series) screw-on casebacks. For me these are the true classics. I wouldn’t mind one of the pre-Vendome models either though.
Last edited by TomGW; 8th August 2021 at 21:00.
Probably some smokes and mirrors stuff by Panerai but I have zero interest in Perezcope or his Gotcha brand of reporting.
I think for the price Panerai are now demanding the smoke and mirrors shouldn’t be happening.
As for Perezscope I did read somewhere his beef with the brand is linked to being in the replica scene many years ago
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I don’t particularly like Perezscope, always seen his posts as more about serving his ego than anything else, but I don’t disagree with any of his findings. Rather than being a hater of Panerai I’ve always seen him as a genuine enthusiast of the watches who then felt badly let down when he discovered that just about everything about them was wrong. Fed up with the fake watches being traded as genuine, the fake watches being appropriated as genuine by Panerai in order to create a fake history, the lies that were then told by the brand to try and make much more of their history than ever was the case, and now the lies that they are happy to tell their customers in order to make a quick buck.
There is another brand that gets derided here for trying to create a fake history and has been caught out telling untruths about in-house movements. But Bremont have nothing on Panerai when it comes to lies. I do like some of their watches though, I had a 372 and it was an amazing piece.
That was an excellent forensic article, although I knew a fair amount of this already.
I have no problem with Valfleurier being the movement maker, either Panerai was capitalised to do in house, or it tapped into Richemont group resources.
The take home for me:
The likes of Hodinkee have a cozy relationship with the manufacturers. Seek your truth elsewhere.
In house for Richemont brands is often in-group.
Panerai in particular is quite cynical in offering less for more, with an unhealthy dose of pulling the wool over buyers eyes.
They have still delivered some great stuff, 223, 372 etc, but if I was going to get a Panerai, I would take something with the earlier 6497 and be happy
Dave
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From Rolex up a mountain, crash landing in a French field to ageing actors. This is what happens when you buy into a back story instead of just looking for what is the best made watch.
Likely to be because JLC don’t want them butchering a base movement, does Panerai have the ability to strip down and redo the movement?
While Richemont class them all under “Specialist watch makers" they really need to split them into two tiers, with Panerai in Tier 2 closer to Baume than Lange.
This was taken from an article a few years ago, so it's not a suprise that the movement is what it is. ( That should never have been a display case back)
" Another interesting dimension of conspicuous production in the watch industry is the way that large conglomerates have sought to balance brand narratives about in-house production with the economies of scale needed to produce reliable movements in a cost-effective way. A perfect example is ValFleurier, a subsidiary of Richemont that develops and manufactures movements and components for most of the group’s portfolio brands, such as Montblanc, Panerai, and Piaget. This corporate structure, which effectively outsources much of the actual watchmaking to a sister company, flies in the face of the predominant narrative that each brand is a self-sufficient manufacture."
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A most interesting article.
It was very clear from beginning P9200 is not an in-house movement
One look at Watchbase would confirm it
Panerai never claimed it was In house except one IG comment apparently
This is usual garbage from that reprehensible character
I have no idea about the veracity of it but there is some interesting stuff about Perezcope on internet. I don’t want to post it here because it almost sounds like character assassination but is not hard to find.
Assassinating the messenger will not change the message. Panerai and its friends have never attempted to deal with the messages.
Last edited by abraxas; 9th August 2021 at 10:05.
It’s well know he is a poacher turned game keeper
This gives him an insight / angle many other don’t.
He does come over as a sell promoting individual but I quite like the detail he goes in to.
It’s more interesting then “how can I get on a list” or “look at this new pretty watch I am being paid to push”
Last edited by Sinnlover; 9th August 2021 at 11:04.
I used to be a big panerai collector (it got out of control) got down to 11 now, but recently started a new list of model i was (i think it runs to another 6-7) which i'll take the next 5 years hunting down
I was never a fan of buying in the eta movements, if i'm paying at that money I want something in house. I like the p2000 family of movements and there are some serious quality in them along with the workhorse 9000 and retro mod 3000
They have made some really good complications, monopulsate chrono, rattrepante column chrono, regatta chrono, equation of time, tourbilion, minute repeater
Bonarti for all his faults at least pushed this
i don't understand going back to eta especially as the prices keep going up, it is very much less for more, I got asked my opinion about entry level which seemed like a really good idea and then they over priced it
I don't understand developing bolt on chrono units for the 9000 when you already have the 2000 family, unless it is to do with the service capacity at head office
the instagram experience pieces hold no attraction for me
I'll keep collecting the what i consider the golden period of in house pieces and wait for the next boss
The smoke and mirrors elements are disappointing, less so the movement "debacle" for me but the tampering with the history elements and marketing shams. Ditto the inability to spot fakes, and when others do, ignoring them and doubling down.
I love the watches DESPITE the brand, not because of it.
I don't have any dog in this fight, but that does sound like the sort of thing someone might circulate to discredit someone...it's poison in the WIS community, and impossible to disprove.
I think the evidence is incontrovertible if you care to look for it.
And to be fair to him, he does not refute the claim.
He was involved in the production of fakes.
I don’t condone the production of fakes but as I understand it he no longer playing in the pond, (I do wonder if he has made the owners of his fakes aware of them) but on the whole I see his approach as helpful to collectors. He is calling out the fakers, the blurring of facts, fabrication of history / marketing. He is one of the few voices that does.
Yes, you only have to look at his own page where he has been completely open about it from the start. The prices of vintage pieces were out of control so he tried three times to build himself a replica using correct parts. Whilst doing this he discovered the evidence that a great many of the vintage pieces being traded by well known and respected members of the Panerai community were, in fact, these franken fakes. He posted his evidence and was, unsurprisingly, banned by those people who were making a fortune selling fakes, probably the same people that have been on a mission to discredit him ever since.
Some dubious storytelling by Panerai.
[big aside]Although really, the whole "luxury" watch thing is one big dubious story, including and perhaps especially the constantly promoted and echoed online reverence for "in house" and "mechanical". As though in the 21st century there really are new and exciting ways to arrange a mainspring, escapement and gear train to regulate the unwinding of said spring.
All the mass-market mechanical 3-handers are more alike than different. Some improved materials and better machining, but nothing that would perplex a watchmaker from a hundred years ago. If you revere mechanical and in-house, a Seiko 5 will suffice. If you want something more accurate and better in all timekeeping respects, any quartz will do. Casio will sell you an in-house one for about £20 with a 10-year power reserve and many "complications". All the rest is storytelling.[/big aside]
There's some interesting stuff on the Perezscope site. I found the luminous material history (also referencing Panerai storytelling, but it has more of interest beyond that) most, well, illuminating.
Poison by me?
I was just reiterating something many others have pointed out before and easily found online. I first become aware of it on the Panerai Forum.
There is exactly where I am at. I love the watches and their regurgitated Rolex design. The rest is just fluff.
I think my 15yo PAM90 has an ETA movement. That’s fine with me though as it’s easy and cheap enough to be serviced by a competent watchmaker.
Just as well really, as Panerai wouldn’t entertain maintaining it anymore due to its mods.
I don’t think it is. There’s speculation he was on a fakes forum but as it’s been deleted no one actually knows.
With the proliferation of micro brands over the last few years, it’s clear a lot of the WIS community - perhaps outpriced in this hobby by stratospheric price rises (or outpriced if they intend to buy a selection of interesting watches) - have moved on from the usual storied companies and just bought designs they like with no attachment to the past - brought to them by watch enthusiasts, who have something to prove (in regard to the design and quality of their offerings) as opposed to corporations who are often cynically raising prices whilst lowering the quality (with eg cheaper movements passed off as in-house) and blurring the classic designs until they are a pale reflection of the originals. The real positive in this picture is the proliferation of interesting, different watches and different brands - it’s certainly kept my attention whilst the whole Swiss/big brand thing has got so silly it just passes me by - if it weren’t for this forum I wouldn’t have a clue what’s going on at that price level as I don’t even glance in AD windows any more
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I hope the same isn't true for JLC as its supposed to be all about the movement.
As they are now messing with VC, who knows.
VC and Le Coultre...
Honestly I think the opposite is true. When I first started using watch forums they were full of micro brands (Timefactors, Helson, MKii, RLT, Stowa, Zeno). Lots of vintage stuff and lots of unusual stuff (Strela, Russian and Chinese brands) The big brand stuff was stuff of quality people looking at the movements the build the fit and finish.
In recent times it’s “How do I get on the list” “Rolex in a shop window” “15 minutes to buy a watch” “How much is this on resale”.
No matter how many controversies come out and no matter how much the customer keeps getting turned over people seem to come back for more.
I remember buying a Tudor Black Bay from Italy before Tudor were available in the UK. People on another watch forum were telling me I was mad to spend £2000 on a watch with an ETA Movement !
I think the big somnambulistic danger here for the group isn’t actually to a brand like Panerai or Mont Blanc, but rather that the punters start to wonder, in the light of various stories, if one of the Holy Trinity hasn’t sold his halo and rigged up something with a Fray Bentos pie tin instead….
Using ETA based movements makes a huge amount of good sense. The designs are proven and well- understood, reliability shouldn’t be a problem and a well- built carefully adjusted ETA movement can perform extremely well. This isn’t what the ‘in house’ movement snobs want to hear but it’s a fact.
I like the vintage in-house movements from the 50s and 60s, I like the individuality and quirky design features, but it’s very hard to argue against the later ETA stuff. I think buyers should focus on the look and design features of the watch, like it or dislike it for those reasons and don’t get hung up about the movement.
I’m not a Panerai fan, you either like them or you don’t, and I don’t. However, for those who like them I wouldn’t be put off by the pedigree of the movement or the smoke and mirrors aspect of the ‘in house’ claims.
For me the issue isn’t that they’re using ETA movements, especially given that I’ve had nothing but good experience with ETA at all price points… my issue is that they’re being sneaky by hiding (or best part of) it.
That being said I do think that a solid gold watch with an ETA costing tens of thousands of pounds isn’t a particularly attractive proposition anyway
Exactly this. No issue with an ETA movement, the issue is in the dishonesty.
However an ETA movement in a solid gold £20k/£30k watch is downright offensive.
Agreed
Be honest and open with your customers.
Why?
An ETA based movement is likely to be more robust and reliable than an in-house development, the only thing it lacks is perceived kudos for the watch snobs.
That may well be true but at at certain level you either want a lower price tag, an in house movement, or a bought in movement from a top tier manufacturer. The Zenith Daytona and AP jumbo with JLC movement are two examples.
You'd be fine buying one of the Mercedes with a robust and reliable Renault engine? I'd be fine with a Renault engine but not at Mercedes money.
Higher price = higher expectation. This is pretty normal.
Revisiting Panerai’s PAM Of Worms
https://perezcope.com/2021/08/22/rev...-pam-of-worms/
"The whole purpose of mechanical watches is to be impertinent." ~ Lionel a Marca, CEO of Breguet
Poor by Panerai
They are to Richemont, what Hublot is to LVMH
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