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Thread: Tile pedestals for patio slabs

  1. #1

    Tile pedestals for patio slabs

    Hi, i just wondered if anyone has any experience of using these? I’m getting some eye watering quotes to lay down a large porcelain patio, and c.60% of it is labour. I’m a keen diyer so was wandering if anyone had any first hand experience of using these.

    https://www.tilemountain.co.uk/p/asp...l-50-70mm.html

    Seems like one office I work at has these or similar out front and the slabs have held up for years. Are they a pain in the back side though, and any negatives I’m not seeing?

    Thanks

  2. #2
    Master
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    I thought patio slabs had to be laid on a full bed?
    I’m not a builder, I’m actually crap at DIY but I’m sure I’ve read that somewhere.

  3. #3
    Master Maysie's Avatar
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    Personally I would not use these as I would want my tiles to be fully supported across their entire area, ie on a full bed of mortar/adhesive and appropriate subbase.

    Unless the tiles/slabs are 'designed' to be supported just at their 4 corners (with intermediate supports where required), ie capable of spanning over the void crated below, then I think you are far more likely to get damage - particularly on large format tiles which seems to be what they are suggesting they are for.
    Happy to be corrected, but these do not seems to be fit for purpose and look as though they will cost more than a full bed solution would anyway.
    Last edited by Maysie; 8th August 2021 at 13:43.

  4. #4
    Journeyman jakesblue's Avatar
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    Tile pedestals for patio slabs

    Not had experience with those platforms but I doubt even using them would significantly reduce the labour costs. The base is pretty quick, it’s often the finishing that takes the time. A friend of mine recently used this and he now swears by it, really quick and cheap to do and great outcome: https://www.tradebuildingproducts.co...SAAEgLNd_D_BwE


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  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by jaytip View Post
    I thought patio slabs had to be laid on a full bed?
    They always have done (by professionals), either onto a cement bound bed 20-40mm thick, or coarse grit bed 40mm thick. I would be very wary of this:


    especially as the base doesan't even look wacked down.

    R
    Ignorance breeds Fear. Fear breeds Hatred. Hatred breeds Ignorance. Break the chain.

  6. #6
    Master bomberman's Avatar
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    As mentioned above, these stilts are purely for DIY on top of MOT base.
    I personally would avoid them and go with a tried and test method of laying a patio if your staying where you are for the long term.

    B

  7. #7
    I have used something similar on a bitumen roof, but it was for 50mm thick slabs they worked well but are tedious to lay for levels etc. Not sure I would want them for porcelain tiles, I think they need a full bed.

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  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by jakesblue View Post
    Not had experience with those platforms but I doubt even using them would significantly reduce the labour costs. The base is pretty quick, it’s often the finishing that takes the time. A friend of mine recently used this and he now swears by it, really quick and cheap to do and great outcome: https://www.tradebuildingproducts.co...SAAEgLNd_D_BwE


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    Can’t see there’s any finishing with these.

  9. #9
    Master draftsmann's Avatar
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    They are excellent for use on flat load-bearing roofs. I’ve used them in Malta where practically all roofs are intended to be walked on. They facilitate a void which keeps the main roof slab cooler- a real advantage in a hot country- and also protect the waterproof membrane from the harsh sun.

    I'm not sure why anyone would use a system like this for slabs being laid on a hardcore base though.

  10. #10
    Grand Master oldoakknives's Avatar
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    Looks like hard work. If you're going to get the ground level first why bother with those?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e_WlQNltlx8
    Started out with nothing. Still have most of it left.

  11. #11
    Master
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    Totally different tangent here, if you are proposing a diy approach with porcelain tiles have you considered the cost of a diamond cutter. I looked at laying porcelain as a simple patio. However a bit of research on utube showed there is a skill and cost in using the diamond cutters to get a clean cut.

    You maybe able to hire one though :)

    Steve

  12. #12
    Master davida's Avatar
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    If you’re laying porcelain tiles, best method is to first lay a screed base and then use a good quality outdoor tile adhesive.

    - - - Updated - - -

    If you’re laying porcelain tiles, best method is to first lay a screed base and then use a good quality outdoor tile adhesive.

  13. #13
    Master
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    Personally, unless there were reasons to need a gap between the slabs and ground or the ground was very uneven, I'd do it the traditional way - we are having 3 separate patios done at the moment and the cost is eye watering (even at 'mates rates'). Our original patio sloped quite dramatically across the width of the house so it's being leveled and sloped away from the house using traditional methods with no issue.

    The supports from the OP are meant to be used in conjunction with other flat headed supports like so...


    If you still want to go with pedestals then maybe the self leveling type would be easier (as noted in the original links comments)

    https://www.wallbarn.com/pedestals-2/balance/

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by julian2002 View Post
    Personally, unless there were reasons to need a gap between the slabs and ground or the ground was very uneven, I'd do it the traditional way - we are having 3 separate patios done at the moment and the cost is eye watering (even at 'mates rates'). Our original patio sloped quite dramatically across the width of the house so it's being leveled and sloped away from the house using traditional methods with no issue.

    The supports from the OP are meant to be used in conjunction with other flat headed supports like so...


    If you still want to go with pedestals then maybe the self leveling type would be easier (as noted in the original links comments)

    https://www.wallbarn.com/pedestals-2/balance/
    So a <5 sq metre needs 37 of those at a cost of about £200, whereas the cost of a concrete base would be about £140.

    R
    Ignorance breeds Fear. Fear breeds Hatred. Hatred breeds Ignorance. Break the chain.

  15. #15
    Thanks for the opinions. I have around 80sqm to do and priced these up at around £1200 for the pedestals (based on 60 cm sq tiles). I’m getting quotes to lay the 20mm porcelain at around £12k which includes c.£4K for the porcelain, £1k for sand and cement etc, so around £7k in labour. I was just curious if I could achieve the same but do it slowly as diy. For info I already have a 5 inch or so whacked type 1 base. I also have a 305mm diamond disc cutter. The temptation to DIY is strong but it looks like not many fancy these as a solution.

  16. #16
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    Tile pedestals for patio slabs

    Quote Originally Posted by tz-uk73 View Post
    Thanks for the opinions. I have around 80sqm to do and priced these up at around £1200 for the pedestals (based on 60 cm sq tiles). I’m getting quotes to lay the 20mm porcelain at around £12k which includes c.£4K for the porcelain, £1k for sand and cement etc, so around £7k in labour. I was just curious if I could achieve the same but do it slowly as diy. For info I already have a 5 inch or so whacked type 1 base. I also have a 305mm diamond disc cutter. The temptation to DIY is strong but it looks like not many fancy these as a solution.
    I would avoid porcelain. When we had our patio laid it took the builders forever to cut the tiles, even with the right tools. The other issue I have is that the mud just sits on the top, I feel they’re probably better suited for a Mediterranean climate, not a wet English winter (or Summer!)

    When it’s clean it does look amazing though. I laid the spares we had on a hardcore base myself to create a BBQ area. Took me and my Dad about a full day. Can’t say it’s perfect but does the job.

    Just remember to prime before laying or they won’t stick.

    Also, we did it about 3-4 years ago with the extension when building prices weren’t crazy, think it cost us under2k all in.





    Last edited by Rodder; 9th August 2021 at 18:24.

  17. #17
    Also, how could you point in between the tiles? Whatever you used would just fall through.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by tz-uk73 View Post
    Thanks for the opinions. I have around 80sqm to do and priced these up at around £1200 for the pedestals (based on 60 cm sq tiles). I’m getting quotes to lay the 20mm porcelain at around £12k which includes c.£4K for the porcelain, £1k for sand and cement etc, so around £7k in labour. I was just curious if I could achieve the same but do it slowly as diy. For info I already have a 5 inch or so whacked type 1 base. I also have a 305mm diamond disc cutter. The temptation to DIY is strong but it looks like not many fancy these as a solution.
    £7k labour for 80sqm? I'm in the wrong job. Unless it's a ridiculous shape or tiny tiles that's only a weeks work surely?

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by watchlovr View Post
    Also, how could you point in between the tiles? Whatever you used would just fall through.
    You don't.

  20. #20
    I would seriously not bother with these. My advice is to bite the bullet and to get it done the proper way. I feel that you will regret it further down the line using these.


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  21. #21
    Don't think we should say the traditional UK home patio method is the only proper way.

    Pedestal systems are used in large commercial projects, eg https://www.pedestal-eternoivica.com...a?cat=walkways

  22. #22
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    Tile pedestals for patio slabs

    Quote Originally Posted by Kingstepper View Post
    Don't think we should say the traditional UK home patio method is the only proper way.

    Pedestal systems are used in large commercial projects, eg https://www.pedestal-eternoivica.com...a?cat=walkways
    I think the UK and Europe have some pretty amazing Medieval piazzas that have lasted well over 500 years.

    I wonder if the system you’ve linked will last as long?
    Last edited by Rodder; 9th August 2021 at 22:57.

  23. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Rodder View Post
    I think the UK and Europe have some pretty amazing Medieval piazzas that have lasted well over 500 years.

    I wonder if the system you’ve linked will last as long?
    Maybe not but if they're deemed okay for large public spaces they should last long enough in a back garden.

    Just don't think people here should be so dismissive of the concept. Doubt most of our houses will last 500 years either.

  24. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Scepticalist View Post
    £7k labour for 80sqm? I'm in the wrong job. Unless it's a ridiculous shape or tiny tiles that's only a weeks work surely?
    Yep, and that’s exc vat. 60 cm square tiles and a rectangular shape on an already whacked type 1 base.

  25. #25
    Grand Master oldoakknives's Avatar
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    I’m struggling to see what the advantages of these pedestal things are?
    Started out with nothing. Still have most of it left.

  26. #26
    Pedestals are normally only used (as someone mentioned above) for paving on roofs, decks, balconies, terraces & the like where a conventional sand or mortar bed would not work, this pedestal system protects the bitumen / waterproofing below and allows pedestrian access thereon while still allowing the waterproofing on the deck / roof to perform as it is intended. The East Asian commercial job in the link above too is paving on a deck.

    Use of pedestals is not commercially viable for paving surfaces on the 'ground'. Sand or mortar bed will always be more economic.

  27. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by tz-uk73 View Post
    Yep, and that’s exc vat. 60 cm square tiles and a rectangular shape on an already whacked type 1 base.
    Porcelain paving is tricky to lay as there is very little room for error, if you want to diy it, get some sandstone and have a crack - cutting porcelain is tricky and it also needs to be stuck down with an adhesive primer to the sub base - which should be a full bed of sharp sand and cement, can add a bit of plastering sand in to make it more sticky if that’s your thing.

    If the guys doing it are legitimate it’s a skilled job which should command decent money, is £8400 a bit steep - yes probably, but there is a lot of building work on at the moment so people can charge more as the demand is higher (sounds familiar!)

  28. #28
    Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr G Imp View Post

    If the guys doing it are legitimate it’s a skilled job which should command decent money, is £8400 a bit steep - yes probably, but there is a lot of building work on at the moment so people can charge more as the demand is higher (sounds familiar!)
    I know I shouldn’t but even at £50/hour that’s 2 guys for 2 weeks plus

  29. #29
    I think it was around 20 something days work for him and a labourer in the quote.

  30. #30
    Grand Master Chris_in_the_UK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tz-uk73 View Post
    I think it was around 20 something days work for him and a labourer in the quote.
    He is lifting your leg big time - it's only 80 square metres.
    When you look long into an abyss, the abyss looks long into you.........

  31. #31
    Master
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    2 square meters a day each 😂

  32. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by Chris_in_the_UK View Post
    He is lifting your leg big time - it's only 80 square metres.
    There was a small wall around the permitter and everything has to be lugged from the front to the back but yes, I tend to agree hence why looking for a diy alternative (which doesn’t seem to be these) or an opinion on pricing which seems to back up my instinct. I think they’re all just so busy down here they calculate a price and add 20-30% and if you say yes you buy them a week in the sun on top.

  33. #33
    FWIW, this is c. 40m of alleyways and for all materials and labour the total cost was £3146, laid on a existing base.

    I just called the installer and asked how much it would have cost had it been a straight-forward patio without any drain-cover inserts and he reckoned about £2600.









    R
    Ignorance breeds Fear. Fear breeds Hatred. Hatred breeds Ignorance. Break the chain.

  34. #34
    Grand Master hogthrob's Avatar
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    Here's Paving Experts opinion:

    Then, just when you think all the surprises are over, they save the biggest, and possibly the most welcome, for last. Pedestals. Yep….I said Pedestals.

    For those unfamiliar with the concept, pedestals are adjustable plastic supports on which paving is laid, usually over roof terraces or balconies and the like. They’ve been knocking around for decades with rather limited appeal - the aforementioned hi-rise applications – but the advent of porcelain and its ilk has seen an explosion in interest as a possible alternative installation method.

    Used correctly, they are a great idea, but they do need careful installation, which, in my not-so-humble opinion means they MUST have a firm and stable base, preferably concrete. There is potential, as Bradstone have correctly identified, for use as an overlay method, enabling porcelain or similar to be laid over the top of existing paving without the need to dig it all out, lay a sub-base, bed on mortar and all that.
    https://www.pavingexpert.com/news424

  35. #35
    Master
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    Out of interest, what is it that makes porcelain so expensive to lay? Just the cutting difficulty?
    I was thinking about a small 20 sq m patio and naively assumed it was only the product that was expensive and that the installation would be roughly the same price as any other boggo patio slabs of a similar dimension

  36. #36
    Master murkeywaters's Avatar
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    I have used porcelain to tile a kitchen floor and now done the walls in two bathrooms with it, every time I promise never to use it again.

    The floor tiles had to be sealed with an expensive sealer, all porcelain is a bugger to cut so god knows what 20mm is like.

    As far as the quote goes, it’s probably best to get a few and find an average, at least you will see it’s either one builder trying it on or no one wants to deal with that much porcelain.

    Personally I would pick another material that is cheaper and easier to work with, if you start the pedestal method yourself I can pretty much guarantee you’ll wish you never started..

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