closing tag is in template navbar
timefactors watches



TZ-UK Fundraiser
Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 50 of 64

Thread: Car detailing products - smoke and mirrors?

  1. #1
    Craftsman
    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Location
    Doncaster
    Posts
    975

    Car detailing products - smoke and mirrors?

    Iíve always been one for keeping my cars in top condition. Iíve had well over 100 cars since I started driving so I know my way round with a bucket and sponge (microfibre mit). I do wonder however whether keen owners have got caught up in the hype around the various nano, hydrophic, ceramic etc products. I dropped by Halfords today who seem to have a huge array of ďdetailingĒ products. It is very easy to pay £20 for a 500ml bottle of something/anything that makes nice beads on your bonnet when you wet it.
    Hydrophobia is the lastest word, along with nanoÖ.no idea.

    Once youíve applied whatever phobic substance they then sell you a spray to apply to the car after washing and before rinsing to promote better water dispersal £18.

    Then you look for a bucket £22! A big duster, admittedly it looks good enough to sleep under but £24. A brush that you can buy from Home Bargains on the hardware section for £3Ö.£14!

    I do wonder whether folk have been caught in the Hype and whether a good coat of a reasonable wax once a month would really achieve the same result.

  2. #2
    Grand Master
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Location
    Wakefield, West Yorkshire
    Posts
    20,944
    Definitely smoke and mirrors, I started smelling bullshit 20+ years ago with car care products. At some point in the recent past, cleaning and polishing your car was transformed into Ďdetailingí and an industry has built up around it.

  3. #3
    You are better off going to a proper car detailing company and getting a professional ceramic coating - not cheap though :)

  4. #4
    A guy I know who runs his own car repair business swears by cheap hair conditioner for detailing/washing his cars and he specifies it has to be the cheap conditioner (quid a bottle).

  5. #5
    I always wonder what roads people who are into car detailing drive on. I can spend an hour or two applying various snow foams to a car, cleaning the wheels, a bit of wax, maybe a hydrophobic coating - drive the car for 20 or 30 miles on the road and voila, most of my efforts have disappeared and the car is filthy again. I wash our 3 cars about once a month, probably because I quite enjoy the process and I can spot stone chips/scratched alloys and apply a bit of touch up paint or clear lacquer to prevent it getting worse. I also check the tyre pressures, clear out any leaves and top up any fluids. But the actually Ďkeeping the car cleaní bit - particularly in Autumn and Winter - seems a bit pointless frankly!!


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  6. #6
    I have read some products are made by one manufacturer but then packaged up differently at different price points. However, I do not know which manufacturer or associated brands.

    There are very good products at reasonable prices such as Bilt Hamber or Autosmart. For Autoglym you can contact local reps who can supply products in bulk sizes eg 2.5ltr shampoo at a good price.

    There are a lot of products within a brand eg Autoglym that seemingly do the same thing eg aqua wax and rapid wax.

  7. #7
    Craftsman
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Location
    Dublin/London
    Posts
    871
    Iím very much into it. There is a lot of smoke and mirror as well as hype around the latest and greatest (which is mostly BS) but there is definitely a lot of innovation in the last few years. Ceramic coatings have moved the game along and there are products out there that can add shine and water behaviour with very little effort which is a big appeal.

    I used to wax my car on a monthly basis but now I normally just apply a spray on sio2 coating every 2 or 3 washes. Gyeon wet coat and gtechniq easy coat in particular can leave your car looking great with nothing more than a spray on and rinse with a hose. Easy coat comes up on Amazon a good bit for £4.79

  8. #8
    Craftsman
    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Location
    Doncaster
    Posts
    975
    Snow foam is a case in point. What a marketing success. You sell a thick soapy detergent, then a bottle and spout (anything up to £50) it puts thick suds onto your car. Makes great photos but thatís about it, certainly doesnít wash the car on its own

  9. #9
    Grand Master
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Location
    Wakefield, West Yorkshire
    Posts
    20,944
    Expensive Ďceramicí coating vs stone chipping........only one winner!

    I rarely bother cleaning my everyday car, especially in winter, itís a futile waste of time. Rinse it with the hosepipe to wet the dirt, wash with warm water containing a few spots of washing up liquid using a sponge to float the dirt off, rinse with the hosepipe, clean the wheels with a brush and water/ detergent.....job done. Treat it to a wax polish once/ year. Canít see the point in doing any more, having a perfect- looking car doesnít matter enough to justify the effort to me. I keep the interior clean and tidy, canít stand dirty car interiors, but I donít get obsessive over it. A quick clean with Mr Sheen and a clean duster will suffice, with a damp cloth to remove any muddy marks.

    Car detailing = OCD , I spend a bit more time on my classic MGB but I donít get too carried away. You waste a lot if money on car care products.

  10. #10
    Master Harry Smith's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2017
    Location
    Wolverhampton
    Posts
    3,772
    Go to a big car auction and see what products they use to shine up their sale cars. When I used to clean bikes for sale Pledge furniture polish gave a nice shine.

  11. #11
    Master
    Join Date
    Sep 2003
    Location
    Auckland, NZ
    Posts
    2,071
    Quote Originally Posted by Ashtons99 View Post
    Snow foam is a case in point. What a marketing success. You sell a thick soapy detergent, then a bottle and spout (anything up to £50) it puts thick suds onto your car. Makes great photos but thatís about it, certainly doesnít wash the car on its own
    I'm not sure what snow foam you're using. No one claims it will clean your car, AFAIK. However, after using Bilt Hamber Auto Foam, there are occasions where I can almost get away without contact washing. And any contact washing I do, is very minimal.

    Rob.

  12. #12
    Master
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    Glos.
    Posts
    1,478
    No amount of cleaning polishing waxing will stop a stone chip etc in fact it will just make it stand out more.
    I used to spend hours snowfoaming/washing/clay bar/polishing/waxing, then hopefully just a wash every week and a top up of wax every few weeks, before repeating the whole process every few months.
    Obviously there are numerous products out there for different parts of the vehicle, trim/wheels/engine bay etc, it's just a matter of finding one that suits your needs.
    Then of course there's the time factor, quite easily spend a day doing the above, not everyone has that amount of time, or the inclination, that's where the cleaning people come in, from your local car wash, ( they have got a lot better and do use decent products), to the detailers, ( who should use the best products to suit your car ).
    To me it's a personal thing, if you've spent decent money buying your car then I think you'd want to keep it looking nice.


    Sent from my SM-T590 using TZ-UK mobile app

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Ashtons99 View Post
    Snow foam is a case in point. What a marketing success. You sell a thick soapy detergent, then a bottle and spout (anything up to £50) it puts thick suds onto your car. Makes great photos but that’s about it, certainly doesn’t wash the car on its own
    My car is ceramic coated, all I have to do is snow foam it, rinse it off and dry it with a towel, I use BH snow foam, you can see the dirt dripping on to the floor.
    Last edited by adrianw; 5th August 2021 at 09:26.

  14. #14
    Craftsman
    Join Date
    Feb 2014
    Location
    London, UK
    Posts
    466
    I think the point some are missing is that it's a hobby. People do it because they enjoy it and don't mind spending a little on it and like most things, there are diminishing returns for your £££s.

    A bit like asking why buy a vintage Rolex/Omega etc when you can buy a Casio for £10 that will tell the time better!

  15. #15
    Journeyman
    Join Date
    Apr 2020
    Location
    Marlborough, Wiltshire
    Posts
    58
    I am guilt of getting caught up in this and if you are not careful, you can spend thousands on stuff!

    I have buckets, grit guards, wheel woollies and all manner of Dodo Juice, Auto Finesse products. Its like a whores make up table in my garage. (Even that made me smile).

    My conclusion is to keep the car clean and well waxed. I have found Auto Finesse products to be really good value for money and easy to apply. An application of this stuff, helps the dirt to be washed away at the next wash. You are never going to stop the car getting dirty, that is just life, but you can protect the car underneath.

    Ceramic coating seems to the thing just now - but I have stuck with a good quality spray on wax and just enjoy my time with the car.

  16. #16
    When Iíve got the time, the stages I go through with a new car to me is usually wash, clay bar to remove physical contaminants, polish with a dual action, wax with something like an old school Collinite wax and maybe a sealant.

  17. #17
    Grand Master Neil.C's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2003
    Location
    SE England
    Posts
    26,041
    Just thinking of washing a car is a drudgery to me.

    I don't think my wife's car has been cleaned for six months.

    Not clever, just more interesting things to do.

    How people make a hobby out of it is beyond me.
    Cheers,
    Neil.

    My Speedmaster website:

    http://www.freewebs.com/neil271052

  18. #18
    Grand Master
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    Somerset (U.k )
    Posts
    11,745
    Blog Entries
    1
    I spent 3 days detailing my car this week

    Monday - wiped down the interior

    Tuesday - day off

    Wednesday - Hoovered and moped the floor

    Thursday - Took it to the car wash

    Job done
    Cheers,

    Ben



    ..... for I have become the Jedi of flippers


    " an extravagance is anything you buy that is of no earthly use to your wife "

  19. #19
    Grand Master Seamaster73's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Location
    55įN
    Posts
    16,061
    Quote Originally Posted by Neil.C View Post
    Just thinking of washing a car is a drudgery to me. I don't think my wife's car has been cleaned for six months. Not clever, just more interesting things to do. How people make a hobby out of it is beyond me.
    Couldnít agree more.

    When I was seventeen and had my first car I used to go in for all that carry-on. Not since. Now I wait until I can barely see out of the windows before I take the thing round the corner where a bunch of cheerful immigrants give it a once over for a fiver.

    Lifeís too short.

  20. #20
    Master
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    Berkshire
    Posts
    5,562
    Happy to spend a day deep cleaning a car. Equally really enjoy spending a weekend on it, deep clean, clay etc day 1, then the following morning mask it up & hit with the DA.

    Current car is at the end of 5yrs ceramic. Canít decide whether to try and remove myself / hand to the professionals.

  21. #21
    Craftsman
    Join Date
    Aug 2016
    Location
    South Derbyshire
    Posts
    719
    As an aside, rinsing a car with rain water after washing means you donít need to leather it to remove the deposits from tap water. I do mine when rain is falling or imminent. We also have a water butt to use. Neighbours think Iím odd, but hey ho, each to their own


    Sent from my iPhone using TZ-UK mobile app

  22. #22
    When I buy a new car I like to clean it myself to keep the swirlies off. Then after about 4 washes (about a year) I start taking it to the Polish guys round the back of the filling station.

    I like to foam the car, because it's fun. The current Meguiares stuff seems to work as well as the autoglym it replaced and the turtle wax that replaced.

    I guess I'm just too lazy, and not interested in cars to do any more.

  23. #23
    Master
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    Berkshire
    Posts
    5,562

    Car detailing products - smoke and mirrors?

    Quote Originally Posted by ALindsay View Post
    As an aside, rinsing a car with rain water after washing means you donít need to leather it to remove the deposits from tap water. I do mine when rain is falling or imminent. We also have a water butt to use. Neighbours think Iím odd, but hey ho, each to their own


    Sent from my iPhone using TZ-UK mobile app
    Donít get that, given my clean car ends up dirty from dusty rain. I use a 0ppm water filter to rinse the car off, that is proper zero touch drying.

    Chap who bought my S2000 mentioned as he was leaving that he uses water butt water, felt sad for my car given all the minerals, dirt & other stuff from roof / gutter residuals added to the water

    Guessing it all settles to the bottom of the butt.

  24. #24
    Well I am going to give stuff a wirlÖ

    SHINE ARMOR Fortify Quick Coat Ceramic Coating Car Wax - 3 in 1 Hydrophobic Car Polish

    https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/...?ie=UTF8&psc=1

    And I also bought a cordless car polisher/buffer.

    I will say that one of my best purchase for washing the car, was this jet washer from Amazon, along with car washing mittens.

    PAXCESS Electric High Pressure Washer, Jet Washer 1800W 130Bar High Power Jet Wash Car Washing Machine

    https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/...?ie=UTF8&psc=1

  25. #25
    Master
    Join Date
    Mar 2016
    Location
    Lake District
    Posts
    2,275
    Quote Originally Posted by Ashtons99 View Post
    Snow foam is a case in point. What a marketing success. You sell a thick soapy detergent, then a bottle and spout (anything up to £50) it puts thick suds onto your car. Makes great photos but thatís about it, certainly doesnít wash the car on its own
    Snow foam is great, it's not meant to wash the car on its own but removes contaminants so when you do wash it there's less chance of swirls as most of the grime has already gone. I used to be into detailing but don't seem to have the time nowadays which is a shame as I do actually enjoy it. Cars that have been detailed correctly are so much easier to keep clean during a normal wash and, imo, look miles better.
    Saying all that there is a lot of marketing BS😁

    Boot lid and side shot of my M3 after detailing:


  26. #26
    Master
    Join Date
    Dec 2014
    Location
    Unknown
    Posts
    3,979
    Blog Entries
    1
    I keep the windows, lights and reg plate clean. Otherwise only clean when using the car makes me mucky.

  27. #27
    Journeyman
    Join Date
    Feb 2016
    Location
    Worcester
    Posts
    197
    Just got mine ceramic coated. First time Iíve done that and Iím impressed with the results


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  28. #28
    Craftsman
    Join Date
    Aug 2016
    Location
    South Derbyshire
    Posts
    719
    Quote Originally Posted by Mj2k View Post
    Donít get that, given my clean car ends up dirty from dusty rain. I use a 0ppm water filter to rinse the car off, that is proper zero touch drying.

    Chap who bought my S2000 mentioned as he was leaving that he uses water butt water, felt sad for my car given all the minerals, dirt & other stuff from roof / gutter residuals added to the water

    Guessing it all settles to the bottom of the butt.
    What can I say, works for me and is free with no risk involved. Maybe depends on where you live ref. airborne pollutants. First tried it after reading a recommendation by Honest John in the press. Our water butt water comes out nice and clean as any crap will settle below the tap point.


    Sent from my iPhone using TZ-UK mobile app

  29. #29
    Craftsman
    Join Date
    Jul 2014
    Location
    pride of the north
    Posts
    728
    Quote Originally Posted by Darkeeboy View Post
    Just got mine ceramic coated. First time Iíve done that and Iím impressed with the results


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    Snap, when I picked mine up it looked amazing, only 1 month down the line but still looks gorgeous

  30. #30
    Craftsman
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Location
    Hertfordshire UK
    Posts
    849
    Can fully appreciate, car detailing certainly isnít for everyone.

    I get a real sense of satisfaction out of cleaning and a spot of detailing. A few treatments including Claying, machine polish, and a spray on ceramic coating etc. certainly made a difference as the previous owner clearly couldnít be arsed.

    With good coatings, the car stays cleaner even in rainy conditions and is subsequently easier to clean.

  31. #31
    Autoglym and done for me. Mostly Snow Foam, Shampoo, Fast Glass, SRP, Wheel Cleaner, Tyre Dressing, Wheel Sealer, Carnuba. Aqua Wax sometimes too. Yet to find a product that didnít impress, which I canít say any time I look elsewhereÖ.

  32. #32
    Master Mouse's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2014
    Location
    Lincs, UK
    Posts
    2,801
    I've always been a big fan of Autoglym and Bilt Hamber products. Also, living in a fairly hard water area, using a water filter in the hose line has been the best thing ever. But now my back has cried enough and so I've just taken on the services of a professional valeter. So far, he's done an exterior detail, correction and ceramic treatment......and the car looks way better than I ever managed!

    Hopefully the ceramic will keep the bodywork in good shape now. Unfortunately, we live across the road from some large trees - and, yep, one is the dreaded Lime, so during the summer the car is never spotless for more than a few days. And that's not including the local pigeon squadron who love to use the roof of our car for range practice
    Last edited by Mouse; 5th August 2021 at 22:18.

  33. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by Mj2k View Post
    Donít get that, given my clean car ends up dirty from dusty rain. I use a 0ppm water filter to rinse the car off, that is proper zero touch drying.

    Chap who bought my S2000 mentioned as he was leaving that he uses water butt water, felt sad for my car given all the minerals, dirt & other stuff from roof / gutter residuals added to the water

    Guessing it all settles to the bottom of the butt.
    I am a 2 bucket wash and occasional clay bar & wax every 6 months "detailer", I do use a DI vessel which is the best thing i have bought for cleaning the car. i washed my sisters car the other day and as she doesn't have an outside tap used the water but. The water did look green against her white car but it rinsed off and dried nicely - wouldn't use it unless i had to, but was actually ok.

  34. #34
    Hate it with a passion. It's like hoovering, you do it and 3 months later it needs doing again. What's more I'm crap at it. It usually ends up looking worse than when I started. No amount of fancy products is going to change that.

    I do like a clean and shiny car though.

  35. #35
    Grand Master Mr Curta's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Location
    Mainly UK
    Posts
    15,154
    Paging Suds, your thread is here
    Inform - Educate - Entertain

  36. #36
    Brilliant thread. Some of the comments really made me laugh. I drive a black car and seconds after washing it, I can see dust and when driven, it's game over.

    The worse thing is if you wash the car, go in for a cuppa, come back out and see a huge bird shite on the car. It's like they've been watching and getting one ready...
    Last edited by Tony-GB; 6th August 2021 at 06:14.

  37. #37
    Master
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Location
    By the TOLL Road
    Posts
    4,116
    Blog Entries
    1
    Quote Originally Posted by Rob (NZ) View Post
    I'm not sure what snow foam you're using. No one claims it will clean your car, AFAIK. However, after using Bilt Hamber Auto Foam, there are occasions where I can almost get away without contact washing. And any contact washing I do, is very minimal.

    Rob.
    Exactly this. I use snow foam only when the car is really dirty it does loosen the dirt bird muck etc so making it easier to clean.

  38. #38
    Master
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Location
    By the TOLL Road
    Posts
    4,116
    Blog Entries
    1
    Quote Originally Posted by Neil.C View Post
    Just thinking of washing a car is a drudgery to me.

    I don't think my wife's car has been cleaned for six months.

    Not clever, just more interesting things to do.

    How people make a hobby out of it is beyond me.
    Because a lot of people take pride in what they drive

  39. #39
    Craftsman
    Join Date
    Jun 2014
    Location
    Yorkshire
    Posts
    837
    I gave up taking mine to any of the local £6 foreign car washes, it was costing me a wheel rebalance every couple of months as they kept power washing the balance weights off. Iíve used BH snow foam for years on my bike and sureflex HD which is great.


    Sent from my iPhone using TZ-UK mobile app

  40. #40
    Craftsman
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Location
    Hertfordshire UK
    Posts
    849
    Quote Originally Posted by aa388 View Post
    I gave up taking mine to any of the local £6 foreign car washes, it was costing me a wheel rebalance every couple of months as they kept power washing the balance weights off.
    TZ-UK mobile app
    No surprise there. They're all about speed which is also why they use some harsh chemicals, traffic film removers, etc.

  41. #41
    Master
    Join Date
    Sep 2018
    Location
    Isle of Ynys Mon, Wales
    Posts
    2,354
    Blog Entries
    1
    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Curta View Post
    Paging Suds, your thread is here
    Ha, I've already replied in the "...never understand thread". I know an affluent chap who considers his car 'a box on wheels'- you either get it or you don't. But yes in reply to the OP I see many brands which are highly recommended by users but are in fact merely repackaged products at a higher price - but that isn't really a problem if you are a happy consumer ( I recently heard about a hobby whereby people lose hundreds of pounds when they sell their time machines). I'll get me anorak...
    Last edited by Suds; 6th August 2021 at 09:58.

  42. #42
    Master
    Join Date
    Aug 2014
    Location
    Mountsorrel uk
    Posts
    1,576
    Quote Originally Posted by Tony-GB View Post
    Brilliant thread. Some of the comments really made me laugh. I drive a black car and seconds after washing it, I can see dust and when driven, it's game over.

    The worse thing is if you wash the car, go in for a cuppa, come back out and see a huge bird shite on the car. It's like they've been watching and getting one ready...
    Iíve had 2 black cars looked fantastic after being washed, for about 20mins I have avoided them ever since

  43. #43
    Journeyman
    Join Date
    Apr 2020
    Location
    Chester
    Posts
    135
    Quote Originally Posted by Mj2k View Post
    ÖI use a 0ppm water filter to rinse the car off, that is proper zero touch drying.
    I purchased one of these earlier in the year and wish Iíd got one sooner. Weíve got two black cars and I donít have to towel them dry now. Quick rinse with the filter attached to the hose and leave to drip dry. I was sceptical before purchase but itís superb.

  44. #44
    Master
    Join Date
    Apr 2015
    Location
    Bedfordshire, UK
    Posts
    1,517
    It always struck me that 'Detailing' fell into the same category as Golf and Fishing. Basically pastimes whose primary goal is to get you away from the wife and kids for a while.

    In the past our fathers had a nice garden shed and a stack of razzles or the pub to retreat to, now the sanctity of the shed has been violated by things like barbecues, garden furniture and <shudder> craft supplies and the pubs are dying or being turned into 'spoons, we men need new escape mechanisms, hence the exploding popularity of Golf, Fishing and Detailing. The fact that it also allows men to squander their hard earned cash on overpriced accoutrements and get that short lived endorphin rush from buying the latest nano carbon fiber descaling wedge is also a big bonus.

  45. #45
    Grand Master Neil.C's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2003
    Location
    SE England
    Posts
    26,041
    Quote Originally Posted by Neil.C View Post
    Just thinking of washing a car is a drudgery to me.

    I don't think my wife's car has been cleaned for six months.

    Not clever, just more interesting things to do.

    How people make a hobby out of it is beyond me.
    Quote Originally Posted by hilly10 View Post
    Because a lot of people take pride in what they drive
    Good luck to them.
    Cheers,
    Neil.

    My Speedmaster website:

    http://www.freewebs.com/neil271052

  46. #46
    Master
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    Berkshire
    Posts
    5,562
    Quote Originally Posted by SlipperySam View Post
    I purchased one of these earlier in the year and wish Iíd got one sooner. Weíve got two black cars and I donít have to towel them dry now. Quick rinse with the filter attached to the hose and leave to drip dry. I was sceptical before purchase but itís superb.
    I have to say it is the best thing Iíve purchased for car washing. I bought my father one too as he was rubbish at drying it - he was a cynic too but loves it now.

    I always fill a watering can vs use the hose - so much wasted Ďposh waterí left in the hose lol.

    If you havenít got a TDS meter, get one as when the resin goes off, it does it rapidly. I test every use, my wife however...

  47. #47
    Master
    Join Date
    Jun 2018
    Location
    dunfermline fife
    Posts
    1,060
    Glad I live in a ďnice waterĒ area, no nasty marks left when it get left to dry, get my shampoo etc from the garage supplier in 5l containers, lasts ages works out cheap as long as the water runs off when I put the hose on before it gets washed Iím happy. I sold fancy paint protection at work, money making gimmick.

  48. #48
    Journeyman
    Join Date
    Apr 2020
    Location
    Chester
    Posts
    135
    Quote Originally Posted by Mj2k View Post
    I have to say it is the best thing Iíve purchased for car washing. I bought my father one too as he was rubbish at drying it - he was a cynic too but loves it now.

    I always fill a watering can vs use the hose - so much wasted Ďposh waterí left in the hose lol.

    If you havenít got a TDS meter, get one as when the resin goes off, it does it rapidly. I test every use, my wife however...
    I did use the watering can method to start with but then threw caution to the wind and hooked it up to the hose

    I havenít got a TDS meter. Did you get one of the eBay/Amazon ones for about £15 or something more expensive?

  49. #49
    Master
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    Berkshire
    Posts
    5,562
    Quote Originally Posted by SlipperySam View Post
    I did use the watering can method to start with but then threw caution to the wind and hooked it up to the hose

    I havenít got a TDS meter. Did you get one of the eBay/Amazon ones for about £15 or something more expensive?
    £10-15 eBay ones are fine for what you need Sam

  50. #50
    Grand Master Chris_in_the_UK's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    Norf Yorks
    Posts
    40,284
    Guys, some people do it and do it well, some do not get why and loads of people are in the middle.

    Nothing wrong with spending time doing it - no different to lots of interests.

    Personally I like my cars to look nice and I look after them in all aspects.
    When you look long into an abyss, the abyss looks long into you.........

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

Do Not Sell My Personal Information