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Thread: SS Audemars Piguet or PM Rolex?

  1. #1

    SS Audemars Piguet or PM Rolex?

    I put my name down for a Royal Oak a few months ago and popped in again the other week to try one on (sadly destined for someone else) and a few other pieces. It is a beautiful watch and felt great in my wrist, just a snip at £21k!

    I was browsing TZ the other night and saw a lovely WG Daytona for about £28k and it got me thinking, I could get a WG Daytona for £7k more than the AP.

    I’ve also got a soft spot for the WG YM on Oysterflex.

    I currently only have a SS GMT.

    My heart is saying AP all the way (if I ever do get the call which could be unlikely) because I love the brand and the watch as a whole, the downsides being the service costs and the fact it won’t be as hard wearing as a Rolex.

    My head says the Rolex is a better buy because it will feel a bit more ‘special’ being PM.

    Thoughts?

  2. #2
    Craftsman
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    PM Rolex generally seem very good value compared to their stainless stell counterparts however personally I'd still go for the AP. Obviously it's all subjective but to me it just feels in a different league.

  3. #3
    Grand Master MartynJC (UK)'s Avatar
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    Go with your heart (especially if you don't plan to sell). You may not want to wear a PM Rolex in public..
    “ Ford... you're turning into a penguin. Stop it.” HHGTTG

  4. #4
    Grand Master wileeeeeey's Avatar
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    I went through this a few weeks ago and went with the YM42 on Oysterflex. I really like it and I'm happy with my choice but I do wonder if it's like getting a very high spec Golf for BMW money.

    I'm now trying to figure out how to get the AP too...

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by wileeeeeey View Post
    I went through this a few weeks ago and went with the YM42 on Oysterflex. I really like it and I'm happy with my choice but I do wonder if it's like getting a very high spec Golf for BMW money.

    I'm now trying to figure out how to get the AP too...
    We have similar tastes it would seem! It may come down to my impatience as whilst I seem to have some rapport with AP I know the call won’t come soon.

    I get the car analogy although it’s gold and a very good looking piece.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by MartynJC (UK) View Post
    Go with your heart (especially if you don't plan to sell). You may not want to wear a PM Rolex in public..
    I’m not sure a WG Rolex is any more attention grabbing than a BLRO. I’m pretty sure all the scrotres know AP these days!

  7. #7
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    Out of the two I’d go for the AP (if you can get one at retail) as I’ve never been a fan of white gold.

    I’ve recently been weighing up a similar dilemma…sell my AP RO 37mm and put towards a YG sub. I’ve decided to keep the AP and every time I put it on I know I’ve made the right decision, the quality and finishing is miles above Rolex and just feels so special. Yes the Daytona js nice, and the weight of WG would feel good, but I feel is a bit bland compared to the RO. All subjective of course and what ever you choose you will still have a nice watch.


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  8. #8
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    There are a certain kind of ‘easy’ story which can be knocked out to fill airtime with no real effort. I know, it was my job. Easy Peasy. The police don’t care, most thieves can’t tell genuine thefts from cheap counterfeits. You can write garbage like this every few weeks. No one will contradict you.
    Next, add scare tales about thieves on bikes following the rich. Or peopke wearing obvious clothes. Then people driving convertibles, and anything else you fancy.
    Then, interview a happy policeman and afriebdly jeweller, bingo, a nice easy story. If you think about it, why would you steal a watch….with the high risks of sale…when stealing any wallet would be far better bet. But ‘thieves target handbags’ just doesn’t sound as interesting. That’s the media. Call me cynical. But I know….it’s just lazy journalism.
    As far as I’m concerned…the rule is, be discrete. Don’t attract attention. A Tesco shopping bag is a better bet than an expensive handbag.
    Last edited by paskinner; 30th July 2021 at 01:31.

  9. #9
    Master paneristi372's Avatar
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    Its a position I have been in a few times. My grail of grails is the full bracelet White Gold Daytona with grey slate dial and Arabic numerals, often only seen on leather strap though. I have come very close to getting one a couple of times and trading my AP RO in but ultimately I have always kept the RO as when it came to it I just couldn't bring myself to part with it again. In 2009 I traded my 15300 RO for a 11613LB thought I did well getting £1000 my way!!!

    Ultimately the AP is now strangely sentimental after initially purchasing my first at retail £6350 from a jeweller in Blackburn back in 2007 (Sold a 16600 SD, a Submariner Non Date 14060 and a Submariner Date 168000) I got another last year and when I wear it I do love it.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by thestore View Post
    I’m not sure a WG Rolex is any more attention grabbing than a BLRO. I’m pretty sure all the scrotres know AP these days!
    It never makes sense, it’s not believable. Why would a thief risk a direct confrontation and then be left with a watch (counterfeit) to sell to dodgy people? Far better to steal a wallet….money, cards, no resale. That’s what’s being targeted, wealthy looking tourists, Just don’t make yourself a target .
    Or, to put it another way. The target isn’t your watch….the target is you.
    Last edited by paskinner; 30th July 2021 at 09:01.

  11. #11
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    What’s the availability of a PM Rolex?

    Unless you have a great relationship with the AP AD it might take a while to get the AP. In the meantime buy the Rolex and once you get the call for the AP you could offload the Rolex ?

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by gaurav_tzuk View Post
    What’s the availability of a PM Rolex?

    Unless you have a great relationship with the AP AD it might take a while to get the AP. In the meantime buy the Rolex and once you get the call for the AP you could offload the Rolex ?
    I haven’t actually enquired but I suspect I could get a WG YM within a reasonable time frame. I suspect I might take a bit of a bath doing that though?

  13. #13

    Quote Originally Posted by thestore View Post
    I haven’t actually enquired but I suspect I could get a WG YM within a reasonable time frame. I suspect I might take a bit of a bath doing that though?

    Affirmative on both fronts.

  14. #14

    Quote Originally Posted by Gerald Genta View Post
    PM Rolex generally seem very good value compared to their stainless stell counterparts however personally I'd still go for the AP. Obviously it's all subjective but to me it just feels in a different league.

    100% agree.

    AP are in a totally different bracket for every frame of reference.

  15. #15
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    If there was no internet telling you blurb and residuals and no adverts selling you a dream of making you something you are not then which would you buy?

    They are both great, crowns dont fall out of Rolex regularly though!
    RIAC

  16. #16
    Grand Master abraxas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gareth-W View Post
    100% agree.

    AP are in a totally different bracket for every frame of reference.
    +1

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by 100thmonkey View Post
    If there was no internet telling you blurb and residuals and no adverts selling you a dream of making you something you are not then which would you buy?

    They are both great, crowns dont fall out of Rolex regularly though!
    To be slightly controversial, possible one of these:

    https://www.watches-of-switzerland.c...SABEgL7kvD_BwE

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by thestore View Post
    To be slightly controversial, possible one of these:

    https://www.watches-of-switzerland.c...SABEgL7kvD_BwE

    Should have gone to specsavers mate
    RIAC

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by 100thmonkey View Post
    Should have gone to specsavers mate
    Haha I tried one on at an airport and thought it was pretty nice. A bit of a poor mans AP though.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by thestore View Post
    I haven’t actually enquired but I suspect I could get a WG YM within a reasonable time frame. I suspect I might take a bit of a bath doing that though?
    I’m by no means an expert but I don’t think it will be that much unless price of commodities tanks. List is 23,100 and quick scan on Chrono24 shows cheapest at 22.5k. Even if you get 90% back it’s still worth it if it means you get to wear it for a few years?

  21. #21
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    I think i’d go AP here, the fact you’ve been on a waiting list for one it seems that’s the one your heart was set on, the WG daytona seems like a compromise


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  22. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by gaurav_tzuk View Post
    I’m by no means an expert but I don’t think it will be that much unless price of commodities tanks. List is 23,100 and quick scan on Chrono24 shows cheapest at 22.5k. Even if you get 90% back it’s still worth it if it means you get to wear it for a few years?

    I'd agree, buy it if you like it and want it.

    Just don't expect to get back you've paid unless there are at least 1-2 price increases or Rolex discontinue the YM range........Trade resellers pay £19,000-£20,000 for brand new YM42 WG I understand from 2 friends that have sold theirs in the last 8 months.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by thestore View Post
    Haha I tried one on at an airport and thought it was pretty nice. A bit of a poor mans special needs AP though.

    Fixed that for you mate....

  23. #23
    Master numberjack's Avatar
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    Funny how the market has changed so much , before they increased the prices you could hardly give away an AP on here.
    Now at over 20 k for a steel watch I’d 100 % go Pm Rolex as reliably and service issues with AP would concern me .

  24. #24
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    Hard to compare as totally different offerings price wise, especially if you were comparing both as new then the difference is 50%.

    AP though is hard to beat. My RO (silver dial) has got more comments (in a positive way) than all my other watches put together from non watch people.

    I’m wearing a WG sub today and there is something special about white gold in a way that’s hard to explain.

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by numberjack View Post
    Funny how the market has changed so much , before they increased the prices you could hardly give away an AP on here.
    Now at over 20 k for a steel watch I’d 100 % go Pm Rolex as reliably and service issues with AP would concern me .
    But what PM Rolex can you get for £20k? RG YM That’s about it isn’t it? Most are much more £££

    I’ve had the RG YM before but for the money much prefer the AP.


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  26. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by numberjack View Post
    Funny how the market has changed so much , before they increased the prices you could hardly give away an AP on here.
    Now at over 20 k for a steel watch I’d 100 % go Pm Rolex as reliably and service issues with AP would concern me .

    AP have (for them) successfully changed their entire business model and it's paying dividends. I do remember the days that I was offered a new Black dial 15400 by an AD (not Boutique of course) for 12.5% off list and just pre a price increase too.....but like anything else it the past once that has gone, it's gone for good.

  27. #27
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    The Rolex is about as perfectly engineered as as any modern mass produced watch. The PM versions represent relatively good value for money. The warranty is bullet proof. Timekeeping is likely to be excellent. I can’t fault it really apart from the micro-scratches that it will attract if you so much as look at it.

    The AP is a less well engineered mass produced product but some crude polishing applied to the bridges might let you fool yourself into believing it represents haut-horlogerie. You could also impress un-informed people by telling them that it is so much better than a common Rolex, if that’s your thing. On the downside, it is made from the same stuff as cheap cutlery but commands a silly price.

    I think it comes down to looks really. Both are Jewellery items after all. To my eyes the Rolex is beautiful. The Royal Oak looks great in the 39mm version but that sku has a crap movement by modern standards. The 41mm version has a good movement but looks ungainly. Purely subjective obviously.

  28. #28

    Smile

    Quote Originally Posted by Satori View Post
    The Rolex is about as perfectly engineered as as any modern mass produced watch. The PM versions represent relatively good value for money. The warranty is bullet proof. Timekeeping is likely to be excellent. I can’t fault it really apart from the micro-scratches that it will attract if you so much as look at it.

    The AP is a less well engineered mass produced product but some crude polishing applied to the bridges might let you fool yourself into believing it represents haut-horlogerie. You could also impress un-informed people by telling them that it is so much better than a common Rolex, if that’s your thing. On the downside, it is made from the same stuff as cheap cutlery but commands a silly price.

    I think it comes down to looks really. Both are Jewellery items after all. To my eyes the Rolex is beautiful. The Royal Oak looks great in the 39mm version but that sku has a crap movement by modern standards. The 41mm version has a good movement but looks ungainly. Purely subjective obviously.

    As opposed to “subjective” I’m going with “comical”

    Thanks for that Friday funny chap…..

  29. #29
    Master numberjack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Satori View Post
    The Rolex is about as perfectly engineered as as any modern mass produced watch. The PM versions represent relatively good value for money. The warranty is bullet proof. Timekeeping is likely to be excellent. I can’t fault it really apart from the micro-scratches that it will attract if you so much as look at it.

    The AP is a less well engineered mass produced product but some crude polishing applied to the bridges might let you fool yourself into believing it represents haut-horlogerie. You could also impress un-informed people by telling them that it is so much better than a common Rolex, if that’s your thing. On the downside, it is made from the same stuff as cheap cutlery but commands a silly price.

    I think it comes down to looks really. Both are Jewellery items after all. To my eyes the Rolex is beautiful. The Royal Oak looks great in the 39mm version but that sku has a crap movement by modern standards. The 41mm version has a good movement but looks ungainly. Purely subjective obviously.
    Harsh on AP there I would think ?
    Some valid observations but lost all credibility with crap movement comment

  30. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Satori View Post
    The Rolex is about as perfectly engineered as as any modern mass produced watch. The PM versions represent relatively good value for money. The warranty is bullet proof. Timekeeping is likely to be excellent. I can’t fault it really apart from the micro-scratches that it will attract if you so much as look at it.

    The AP is a less well engineered mass produced product but some crude polishing applied to the bridges might let you fool yourself into believing it represents haut-horlogerie. You could also impress un-informed people by telling them that it is so much better than a common Rolex, if that’s your thing. On the downside, it is made from the same stuff as cheap cutlery but commands a silly price.

    I think it comes down to looks really. Both are Jewellery items after all. To my eyes the Rolex is beautiful. The Royal Oak looks great in the 39mm version but that sku has a crap movement by modern standards. The 41mm version has a good movement but looks ungainly. Purely subjective obviously.
    Genuine question, how many models of a watch need to be made to be defined as mass produced?

  31. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Satori View Post
    The Rolex is about as perfectly engineered as as any modern mass produced watch. The PM versions represent relatively good value for money. The warranty is bullet proof. Timekeeping is likely to be excellent. I can’t fault it really apart from the micro-scratches that it will attract if you so much as look at it.

    The AP is a less well engineered mass produced product but some crude polishing applied to the bridges might let you fool yourself into believing it represents haut-horlogerie. You could also impress un-informed people by telling them that it is so much better than a common Rolex, if that’s your thing. On the downside, it is made from the same stuff as cheap cutlery but commands a silly price.

    I think it comes down to looks really. Both are Jewellery items after all. To my eyes the Rolex is beautiful. The Royal Oak looks great in the 39mm version but that sku has a crap movement by modern standards. The 41mm version has a good movement but looks ungainly. Purely subjective obviously.
    The production levels of Rolex PM watches will be exponential to the total AP output, mass production…wow, so far off it’s comical


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  32. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by peterdo View Post
    The production levels of Rolex PM watches will be exponential to the total AP output, mass production…wow, so far off it’s comical

    AP produce 40,000 watches a year. There are millions out there. Sounds like mass production to me.



    Mitch

  33. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mitch View Post
    AP produce 40,000 watches a year. There are millions out there. Sounds like mass production to me.



    Mitch
    If you think 40,000 watches a year makes AP mass production, then you should look up the rest of the industry for context


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  34. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by Mitch View Post
    AP produce 40,000 watches a year. There are millions out there. Sounds like mass production to me.



    Mitch
    Same question to you, how many watches a year need to be made for it to be considered mass production? To me Rolex probably is not AP.

  35. #35
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    There aren’t millions out there though are there? If we accept that Rolex make somewhere between 800,000 and 1,000,000 watches a year then there are millions out there. Still a shortfall though as demand is clearly 5X or 10X that.

    AP made 37,000 watches last year and 45,000 the year before (AP House told me that). It was reduced because of COVID. The year before that it was 40,000 if you google it. Production has been increasing year on year and taking out the drop last year the most they’ve ever made was 45,000. Production has been steadily increasing in the last couple of decades as AP have grown. Production was tiny compared to what it is today. If you said they had averaged 20,000 a year over the last 50 years it would only be 1,000,000 total plus whatever they made before that. I’d be fairly confident that they haven’t averaged those figures those. Far less I’d say.

    You could argue that 1,000,000 or say double it 2,000,000 is mass produced. You could also argue that it’s tiny in comparison to its peers. If there’s 8 billion people on the planet, 0.1% would be 8 million so let’s say they’ve made 2,000,000 that’s 0.025% maximum. Considering many AP owners seem to have multiple watches my guess is 0.01% maximum. Most people haven’t heard of the brand and don’t know anyone who owns one.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mitch View Post
    AP produce 40,000 watches a year. There are millions out there. Sounds like mass production to me.

    Mitch
    I wouldn’t waste your time replying to such rubbish. Probably trolling for reaction which he’s got.

    Quote Originally Posted by numberjack View Post
    Harsh on AP there I would think ?
    Some valid observations but lost all credibility with crap movement comment

  36. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by peterdo View Post
    If you think 40,000 watches a year makes AP mass production, then you should look up the rest of the industry for context

    I have a car, which is one of 315 made over three years, it was still made in a factory though, on a production line.

    AP make 40,000 a year and deliberately restrict their production line to this amount. Their factory production line could churn out far more if they wanted to. They could double their production if they wanted to but the watches would still be made the same way as their current ones. How long have AP been producing watches for? Over a hundred years?

    These are not hand made specialist items, they are production line made items, just like Rolex actually, who just choose to have bigger production lines, whilst still deliberately restricting total numbers.



    Mitch
    Last edited by Mitch; 31st July 2021 at 15:56.

  37. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mitch View Post
    I have a car, which is one of 315 made over three years, it was still made in a factory though, on a production line.

    AP make 40,000 a year and deliberately restrict their production line to this amount. Their factory production line could churn out far more if they wanted to. They could double their production if they wanted to but the watches would still be made the same way as their current ones. How long have AP been producing watches for? Over a hundred years?

    These are not hand made specialist items, they are production line made items, just like Rolex actually, who just choose to have bigger production lines, whilst still deliberately restricting total numbers.



    Mitch
    You are of course, completely wrong which you probably already know.

  38. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by Hooshabak View Post
    You are of course, completely wrong which you probably already know.
    Well tell me, seer of seers, where I am wrong? Are you saying AP don't make their watches on a factory production line?

    Some manufacturers choose to produce more on their factory production lines because they know they can sell them and they want to deal in volume. Some produce less because they can't sell so many or they choose to produce less because of marketing.

    They are all basically made the same way though, on a factory production line.



    Mitch

  39. #39
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    If you can make 315 of something, you can probably make 23,150 of them if you increased your capacity

    Your argument is a nonsense


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  40. #40
    Grand Master MartynJC (UK)'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by numberjack View Post
    Harsh on AP there I would think ?
    Some valid observations but lost all credibility with crap movement comment
    Agreed - I have the chap already on my ignore list - but I keep seeing his crass comments quoted, so no getting away from them.
    “ Ford... you're turning into a penguin. Stop it.” HHGTTG

  41. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by thestore View Post
    My heart is saying AP all the way (if I ever do get the call which could be unlikely) because I love the brand and the watch as a whole, the downsides being the service costs and the fact it won’t be as hard wearing as a Rolex.

    My head says the Rolex is a better buy because it will feel a bit more ‘special’ being PM.

    Thoughts?
    If you’re dropping that sort of money on a watch, the head is already second place! If you don’t get what your heart says, you’ll always regret not doing.

    Who knows what happens medium/ long term to prices but the AP are clearly more exclusive. Don’t think I’ve ever seen one in the flesh - either in an AD or anywhere else.

  42. #42
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    Make sure you try on the AP first. They aren't (IMHO) really that well finished (sorry guys). The Minase Divido at around £4.7k has a better bracelet than the RO. At that money the VC Overseas for me as it's much less Stormzy. However of course that not withstanding go for the one you like more - bear in mind AP servicing is expensive and the edges of the bezel are easy to ding - a new bezel won't be cheap.

  43. #43
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    Never handled an AP either, but just on appearance alone I prefer the PM Rolex models. A few years back steel was king and PM didn’t get a look in, but some of the WG models look great, especially the GMT with the meteorite dial if you can find one and afford it and the blue dial Daytona. I think I would want the WG bracelet as well rather than an Oysterflex strap.

    Less convinced about yellow gold or whatever name Rolex call theirs these days, but that’s just my opinion.

  44. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by David_D View Post
    Who knows what happens medium/ long term to prices but the AP are clearly more exclusive. Don’t think I’ve ever seen one in the flesh - either in an AD or anywhere else.
    Ah exclusive!

    Well more exclusive than they were until a couple of years ago?

    I remember walking into Harrods and Selfridges in 2017 and previous years and trying on numerous RO models. I haven’t since December 2017 as I decided I wasn’t really interested in buying one.

  45. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by ryanb741 View Post
    Make sure you try on the AP first. They aren't (IMHO) really that well finished (sorry guys). The Minase Divido at around £4.7k has a better bracelet than the RO. At that money the VC Overseas for me as it's much less Stormzy. However of course that not withstanding go for the one you like more - bear in mind AP servicing is expensive and the edges of the bezel are easy to ding - a new bezel won't be cheap.
    I’ve got a AP RO chrono and the VC Overseas, honestly, the finishing doesn’t compare in any way, and I absolutely love the VC but for different reasons e.g. the strap change mechanism, case back, use of Maltese cross through design

    The AP retains its heritage, you can tell when handling it that it’s been pretty much hand finished throughout the process and it feels really special to wear.

    Both are blue dials, I bought the AP in March 2019, the VC December 2019, both new are like hens teeth and the AP now boutique only, think the VC may have gone the same way


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  46. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by gbn13 View Post
    Ah exclusive!

    Well more exclusive than they were until a couple of years ago?
    Not bothered one way or the other but the production numbers quoted show the AP to be more exclusive.

  47. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mitch View Post

    They are all basically made the same way though, on a factory production line.



    Mitch
    Regardless whether they’re done on a production line or not It’s clear you’ve never seen an AP being made as you are opening your mouth and letting your brains fall out

  48. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by peterdo View Post
    If you can make 315 of something, you can probably make 23,150 of them if you increased your capacity

    Your argument is a nonsense
    No, you are just emphasising my point.

    Factory production line made items are basically all made the same way, actual numbers produced don't alter that fact.



    Mitch

  49. #49
    I have a WG Daytona and a SS AP RO Chrono. And while the Daytona is lovely and one of my favourite watches, its is not worthy to touch the helm of the AP's garment. The AP is on another level design wise. And because the design of the AP is so complex the level of finish is far far better. The SC 116509 Daytona is great value but a RO at retail is another level value wise.

  50. #50
    Craftsman
    Join Date
    Jan 2017
    Location
    Glasgow
    Posts
    735
    Quote Originally Posted by Mitch View Post
    No, you are just emphasising my point.

    Factory production line made items are basically all made the same way, actual numbers produced don't alter that fact.



    Mitch
    You don’t think your car was made in a factory, or the parts that built it?!

    Your poor definition of mass production and unwillingness to define what meets that criteria is telling…


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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