Sorry guys, this is the only picture I can get.
Did you ever seen a dial like this one before? Look at the sub dials markings. Is this a refinished dial or is it just fake.
Sorry guys, this is the only picture I can get.
Did you ever seen a dial like this one before? Look at the sub dials markings. Is this a refinished dial or is it just fake.
Last edited by benbenny; 27th July 2021 at 21:36.
I would say a very badly refinished dial
Tricky one based on that poor quality picture. Not seen those sub dials before which could rule out a fake as they tend to copy watches rather than make things up. Looks pre-professional so would date it to the early to mid 60s if it was a genuine watch. Would be handy to know the first part of the serial number.
Seems to have a stepped dial, but the lume looks odd for sure.
What’s the back story here, is it offered for sale or has someone come across it in a family estate etc.
Without some clearer pictures it’s difficult to go any further. There are plenty of Speedmaster experts around who know far more than me.
Looks like a pile of shit to me, might be useful for parts but somehow I doubt it.
Now you have said that it will probably be one of only 3 or 4 ever made for some specific purpose and is worth an absolute shedloadOriginally Posted by walkerwek1958
Last edited by Wallasey Runner; 27th July 2021 at 20:56.
Still a pile of shit, though.
Why? It's a battered vintage watch which isn't obviously fake and could be really interesting. You can even see the missing hand tucked away at 12 o clock. It could be quite important or it could brush up a treat.
Last edited by M4tt; 27th July 2021 at 21:10.
Archie..?? Is that you?
I t reminds me of the radial dial stuff, although I've not seen a dial like that before. The subdial geometry looks right, as does the Omega, So I think it's possibly both real and interesting. If it is something out of the ordinary, and you can work out what, then it could be a bit special. A photo of the back perhaps?
Yes the lume looks also strange to me. I dont think its lume att all, but hard to say from this picture. If you look closely it seems that the hands are also missing the lume? Is it maybe a issue to the Navy submariners? I do know that watches with radium were not allowed in submariners and were therefore issues without any lume? just guessing
Im guessing old redial . OMEGA font looks off , need to check but shouldnt that be a flat topped A ?
It might be a prototype?!
Last edited by Kirk280; 27th July 2021 at 22:30.
Junk, prototype junk.......
When you look long into an abyss, the abyss looks long into you.........
An original Omega prototype is unlikely to be called 'junk' by the likes of Phillips' auction house
Even if it does look a bit tatty...and the bezel having the ultra rare 'CON' format (crud over ninety)
I think he was noting the irony of the tension between juxtaposition of junk and prototype.An original Omega prototype is unlikely to be called 'junk' by the likes of Phillips' auction house
Even if it does look a bit tatty...and the bezel having the ultra rare 'CON' format (crud over ninety)
I can't claim a great deal of credit, it's built on something I read on the Space Watches Facebook Group a while back and had been meaning to dig into a bit further.
Don't just do something, sit there. - TNH
Interesting theories and informative facts. No I do not own this watch, Ive been offered this and thought I share this with the community to get more info to decide if I should make an offer. I did managed to get a few more pictures. Its a 105.012 from circa 65-67 I guess
Where is Padders when you need him?:-)
Do you mean me old chap? I posted further up. I don't think I was too far off with my suppositions in case you were being arch
There is a few grand of value in the case, movement, crown and dial blank here. I can't see why he is hiding the bracelet other than to show the clasp marks which tell you nothing so it might be best to assign nothing there. It looks like it is US sale only which will rule many out here.
As already stated, unless you have a DON bezel and narrow T stepped Pro dial sitting around (don't we all) I would suggest this isn't a viable project watch, that is unless you want a complete redial candidate. It could cost upwards of £6K to replace the bezel and dial.
Last edited by Padders; 29th July 2021 at 16:19.
321 movement, case, bracelet, looks like original hands with spearpoint chrono - that will do very well I imagine, marry it to a nice dial and DON insert with right font and you would have a nice watch post service of course..
Not really understanding the market, I can't understand why that's already reached the price it has.
Looking at the movement pictures, there looks to be a lot of dirt (or maybe swarf) in there and a lot of the screws look pretty mistreated.
M
Breitling Cosmonaute 809 - What's not to like?
It's pretty simple. When Buzz Aldrin walked on the moon, this is the exact and precise model of Speedmaster he wore, from the same year and with a serial number less than 2000 away from the watch issued to Armstrong. It wouldn't say 'professional' on the dial for the same reason that the Accutrons you really want don't say Astronaut.
Frankly, if this hadn't been advertised quite so heavily and was available in the UK, I'd be plotting a bid significantly higher than this, because I was just old enough to literally wet myself when Aldrin went on his first spacewalk. I'd wet myself to get one of these. Aldrin may have got the glory, but apart from this one, I have all the other watches that Armstrong wore into space (even the AllProof) in their period versions. I can't justify paying cost, but a cheeky bargain? for that, even I'd consider a careful redial, because there's no way on God's earth I'd sell it. I think the movement looks as good as I'd expect and I have a couple of 320s I'd happily sacrifice to revive this.
For me, the value isn't in the watch, it's in my imagination. I'll pay good money to be as close to the real thing as I can get. This is as close to the real thing as you can realistically get. Perhaps more to the point, while it might be nice to have a watch from a hundred years ago that looks shiny, there's something great about a watch that has been worn away by use but which can still be brought back to life and worn again. It's not about value or authenticity, it's about a connection. Every watch has a history. Some have an explicit history, but a lot have an implicit history revealed by wear and service marks. I value that. That most people don't just makes it easier to scratch that itch.
Last edited by M4tt; 29th July 2021 at 23:37.
Think we were chipped off the same block when it comes to Speedmasters, a lot of people don't get the fascination buts thats fine, if everyone thought like us the prices would be even more crazy!
I have a Speedy that came off the production line 18 days before Gene Cernan's 105.003, its no big deal but its a nice thought my watch is reasonably close to this iconic Speedmaster, would love to know the serial numbers/production dates of the other Gemini watches..
No idea what it's worth or where it'll finish, but I reckon you could have it serviced by an accredited independent and fitted with a new dial, hands and insert for under 2k.
The Superluminova and shiny insert with the dot in the wrong place might grate, but they'd tide you over while searching for the original parts and the service dial etc will have retained the majority of what they cost when you've found the original replacements.
It could be a cheap way into a nice 321 if you've got the patience.
I find it hard to imagine that anyone who collects watches doesn't have at least a bit of that. It's hard to approach the Speedmaster neutrally. I'm not always aware of the moon, but sometimes it's suddenly there, just floating serenely in space. That we swerved a nuclear war and, at least partly, went there instead, still blows my mind.
Both the Accutrons and the Speedmasters were part of that and even if they were awful, which they are not, I'd still want them! The Speedmaster was developed from a thirties Lemania Calibre and lord there are some bodges in there. The number of cogs and wheels between the hour hand and the minute hand, is hilarious and in the later models, having a watch that ticks six times a second on a dial that has five graduations per second means this is a watch that will never hit the markers, however, any Moonwatch was an early grail and a watch like this one will always grab my attention, which is why I've spent enough time staring to be able to just have a feeling, and trust it.
In fact, while this:
https://www.intlwatchleague.com/show...hlight=everest
Isn't actually about the Speedmaster per se, it gives a sense of how obsessed I might be on a bad day. Later in the thread I get pushed hard by someone who deserved to be right!
Last edited by M4tt; 30th July 2021 at 08:07.
But it would. The models with twisted lugs all say Professional on the dial including the watches taken to the moon. A straight lug Ed White was worn on the moon too, that has no Pro text.
Last edited by Padders; 30th July 2021 at 11:25.
That's two errors cleared up. Thanks.
Although the internet is plastered with reports that Armstrong wore Mattern's Wittnauer 'Allproof', the watch Armstrong is wearing in this Gemini VIII image certainly doesn't look like one.
Mattern's diary entry indicates a Longines-Wittnauer Lindbergh Hour Angle.
https://www.aahs-online.org/tocb.php?year=1998
The Diary of Jimmie Mattern, Pioneer Airman (Part V)
I was more than pleased when Neil Armstrong and David Scott asked to take something of mine with them on Gemini space docking flight, in which they attempt to dock with the Aegena Capsule. I gave a them watch to carry with them. It was one I had worn on my Round-The-World Flight in 1933. It had been designed by Lindbergh for global flying times. When things went wrong on the Aegena docking, Neil and Dave had to abort and make an emergency landing in the Pacific. Soon Life magazine had an article about the flight in which they stated: "The only thing still working in the whole NASA program was Jimmie Mattern's watch".
Don't just do something, sit there. - TNH
Although the internet is plastered with reports that Armstrong wore Mattern's Wittnauer 'Allproof', the watch Armstrong is wearing in this Gemini VIII image certainly doesn't look like one.
Mattern's diary entry indicates a Longines-Wittnauer Lindbergh Hour Angle.
https://www.aahs-online.org/tocb.php?year=1998
The Diary of Jimmie Mattern, Pioneer Airman (Part V)
I was more than pleased when Neil Armstrong and David Scott asked to take something of mine with them on Gemini space docking flight, in which they attempt to dock with the Aegena Capsule. I gave a them watch to carry with them. It was one I had worn on my Round-The-World Flight in 1933. It had been designed by Lindbergh for global flying times. When things went wrong on the Aegena docking, Neil and Dave had to abort and make an emergency landing in the Pacific. Soon Life magazine had an article about the flight in which they stated: "The only thing still working in the whole NASA program was Jimmie Mattern's watch".
Excellent, thanks. I bought the story based upon this image from recovery which appears consistent with an allproof:
But between the diary entry and the other photo, it's clearly not. One step forward, one step back. Thanks for the correction. I'm a bit disappointed as the idea of the teeny allproof in space always tickled me
The Wittnauer is there, Armstrong wore a watch on both wrists.Excellent, thanks. I bought the story based upon this image from recovery which appears consistent with an allproof:
But between the diary entry and the other photo, it's clearly not. One step forward, one step back. Thanks for the correction. I'm a bit disappointed as the idea of the teeny allproof in space always tickled me
You can look up all the Gemini 8 pre-launch photos (online) and there are very clear ones on the walk to/from the transfer vehicle to the launch pad. He clearly wears a Speedie over his glove cuff on the left side, and a much smaller white-dialled watch on the right.
I was the one who found the above photo in high def and posted it up on the WUS Space Topics forum (and the ATG forum) about 12 or 13 years ago, so I looked up all the photos.
Can't find the link here, but you can see on this photo he has a Speedie LEFT wrist, and an assitional velcro strap on the right.
And the watch above (in the splashdown photo) is (as you would clearly identify) not black dialled.
Now, whether the watch given by Mattern to Armstrong was actually the one he wore attempting his round the world flight that ended in a disastrous crash mid-Siberia, well, that is another matter, but the fact that Armstrong wore a Mattern watch on the right wrist is beyond dispute
D
I've been on Omega forum for quite a while and you'd be amazed at what parts some of the Speedmaster enthusiasts have squirreled away. I'd bet this ends up with one of them. Let's not forget that the bracelet alone is worth a few hundred.
Last edited by Scepticalist; 31st July 2021 at 08:25.
Exactly. Any vintage collector worth their salt will have stuff squirreled away and there's a good chance the individual is out there with everything needed to get this into shape. I won't, for example, be participating in the Covid 19 £50 Ebay challenge as I spent the allotted funds on a loose UG microtor movement last night after possibly too much Rioja.
In the Sotadic Zone, apparently.
Exactly. Any vintage collector worth their salt will have stuff squirreled away and there's a good chance the individual is out there with everything needed to get this into shape. I won't, for example, be participating in the Covid 19 £50 Ebay challenge as I spent the allotted funds on a loose UG microtor movement last night after possibly too much Rioja
I like the cut o' your jib.
F.T.F.A.
Surely that's an entry in itself? Does it tick?Exactly. Any vintage collector worth their salt will have stuff squirreled away and there's a good chance the individual is out there with everything needed to get this into shape. I won't, for example, be participating in the Covid 19 £50 Ebay challenge as I spent the allotted funds on a loose UG microtor movement last night after possibly too much Rioja
Unfortunately not - slightly over on price and also postage.
In the Sotadic Zone, apparently.
I enjoy a project but this is too far gone for me . I have seen crazy prices acheived for watches that are in this condition
The terrible pictures don't help, why not a picture of the bracelet?
Is the crown wonky?
I think project watches can often fetch more they are worth. People can get excited about them.
They can often spend more money (and have something not original) than buying a decent one to start with.
Cheers,
Neil.
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