closing tag is in template navbar
Time Factors Watches



TZ-UK Fundraiser
Page 2 of 2 FirstFirst 12
Results 51 to 66 of 66

Thread: is it fake? 1960s Omega Speedmaster - did you ever seen a dial like this?

  1. #51
    Master
    Join Date
    Sep 2014
    Location
    Birmingham
    Posts
    2,852
    Quote Originally Posted by M4tt View Post
    It's pretty simple. When Buzz Aldrin walked on the moon, this is the exact and precise model of Speedmaster he wore, from the same year and with a serial number less than 2000 away from the watch issued to Armstrong. It wouldn't say 'professional' on the dial for the same reason that the Accutrons you really want don't say Astronaut.
    But it would. The models with twisted lugs all say Professional on the dial including the watches taken to the moon. A straight lug Ed White was worn on the moon too, that has no Pro text.
    Last edited by Padders; 30th July 2021 at 11:25.

  2. #52
    Grand Master
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Location
    Wakefield, West Yorkshire
    Posts
    20,057
    As a child in the 60s I was obsessed with space exploration, I was 11 when the first moonwalk happened in ‘69 and I remember it well. There was a sense of anticlimax afterwards and I don’t think subsequent missions caught the publics imagination in the same way. Obviously Omega enjoyed the kudos of being associated with the space programme via the Speedmaster and rightly so, first watch on the moon is an accolade they deserve, but I don’t think they made such a big deal about it at the time as they have in later years. Indeed, I have a 2 page magazine ad from 1970 that features a few Omega watches (Flightmaster, Seamaster chronometer, Flightmaster, Speedy mk11) the moon landing connection is mentioned but it isn’t the main thrust of the ad which seeks to promote all the range equally.

    I’m definitely in the ‘don’t get it’ camp with vintage Speedmasters, unless you own one of the examples that actually went into space the link is meaningless. I like the earlier Ed White versions because I prefer the lug design and the watch is slightly smaller, but that’s as far as it goes, the space connection means nothing. If I stumbled across a cheap scruffy 60s Speedy with 321 movement I’d happily buy it and sell it for a big profit to some dreamer who gets excited by them, they’re just tatty old watches and I see no appeal in owning a tatty watch.

    NASA put a man on the moon, not Omega, it was 50+ years ago, it was a big deal at the time but the world has moved on and it’s now confined to history. I like the Speedy moonwatch, it’s a horological anachronism but it has a certain charm, a newish example of essentially the same watch as the 60s version can be bought for a couple of grand and on that basis I can’t see the point in buying an old scruffy one. OK, the bezel might have a dot over 90(wow!) and the edge of the dial’s slightly different, but other than that it’s the same beast!

    The Speedy collectors market baffles me, I think its been fuelled by a few nerds who couldn't afford vintage Rolex subs when they became too expensive and somehow it’s snowballed from there.........makes no sense to me.
    Last edited by walkerwek1958; 30th July 2021 at 11:17.

  3. #53
    Grand Master
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    Sussex
    Posts
    10,302
    Blog Entries
    1
    Quote Originally Posted by Padders View Post
    But it would. The models with twisted lugs all say Professional on the dial including the watches taken to the moon. A straight lug Ed White was worn on the moon too, that has no Pro text.
    That's two errors cleared up. Thanks.

  4. #54
    Grand Master Mr Curta's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Location
    Mainly UK
    Posts
    13,758
    Quote Originally Posted by M4tt View Post
    ...Aldrin may have got the glory, but apart from this one, I have all the other watches that Armstrong wore into space (even the AllProof) in their period versions.
    Although the internet is plastered with reports that Armstrong wore Mattern's Wittnauer 'Allproof', the watch Armstrong is wearing in this Gemini VIII image certainly doesn't look like one.




    Mattern's diary entry indicates a Longines-Wittnauer Lindbergh Hour Angle.

    https://www.aahs-online.org/tocb.php?year=1998

    The Diary of Jimmie Mattern, Pioneer Airman (Part V)

    I was more than pleased when Neil Armstrong and David Scott asked to take something of mine with them on Gemini space docking flight, in which they attempt to dock with the Aegena Capsule. I gave a them watch to carry with them. It was one I had worn on my Round-The-World Flight in 1933. It had been designed by Lindbergh for global flying times. When things went wrong on the Aegena docking, Neil and Dave had to abort and make an emergency landing in the Pacific. Soon Life magazine had an article about the flight in which they stated: "The only thing still working in the whole NASA program was Jimmie Mattern's watch".
    Inform - Educate - Entertain

  5. #55
    Grand Master
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    Sussex
    Posts
    10,302
    Blog Entries
    1
    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Curta View Post
    Although the internet is plastered with reports that Armstrong wore Mattern's Wittnauer 'Allproof', the watch Armstrong is wearing in this Gemini VIII image certainly doesn't look like one.




    Mattern's diary entry indicates a Longines-Wittnauer Lindbergh Hour Angle.

    https://www.aahs-online.org/tocb.php?year=1998

    The Diary of Jimmie Mattern, Pioneer Airman (Part V)

    I was more than pleased when Neil Armstrong and David Scott asked to take something of mine with them on Gemini space docking flight, in which they attempt to dock with the Aegena Capsule. I gave a them watch to carry with them. It was one I had worn on my Round-The-World Flight in 1933. It had been designed by Lindbergh for global flying times. When things went wrong on the Aegena docking, Neil and Dave had to abort and make an emergency landing in the Pacific. Soon Life magazine had an article about the flight in which they stated: "The only thing still working in the whole NASA program was Jimmie Mattern's watch".

    Excellent, thanks. I bought the story based upon this image from recovery which appears consistent with an allproof:


    But between the diary entry and the other photo, it's clearly not. One step forward, one step back. Thanks for the correction. I'm a bit disappointed as the idea of the teeny allproof in space always tickled me

  6. #56
    Master
    Join Date
    Jun 2015
    Location
    Edinburgh
    Posts
    2,333
    Blog Entries
    1
    Quote Originally Posted by snowman View Post
    Not really understanding the market, I can't understand why that's already reached the price it has.

    Looking at the movement pictures, there looks to be a lot of dirt (or maybe swarf) in there and a lot of the screws look pretty mistreated.

    M
    I've been on Omega forum for quite a while and you'd be amazed at what parts some of the Speedmaster enthusiasts have squirreled away. I'd bet this ends up with one of them. Let's not forget that the bracelet alone is worth a few hundred.
    Last edited by Scepticalist; 31st July 2021 at 08:25.

  7. #57
    Grand Master Carlton-Browne's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Berlin, London and sometimes Dublin
    Posts
    13,628
    Quote Originally Posted by Scepticalist View Post
    I've been on Omega forum for quite a while and you'd be amazed at what parts some of the Speedmaster enthusiasts have squirreled away. I'd bet this ends up with one of them. Let's not forget that the bracelet alone is worth a few hundred.
    Exactly. Any vintage collector worth their salt will have stuff squirreled away and there's a good chance the individual is out there with everything needed to get this into shape. I won't, for example, be participating in the Covid 19 50 Ebay challenge as I spent the allotted funds on a loose UG microtor movement last night after possibly too much Rioja .
    Die Zeit verwandelt uns nicht, sie entfaltet uns nur.

  8. #58
    Grand Master magirus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2003
    Location
    Up North hinny
    Posts
    36,816
    Quote Originally Posted by Carlton-Browne View Post
    Exactly. Any vintage collector worth their salt will have stuff squirreled away and there's a good chance the individual is out there with everything needed to get this into shape. I won't, for example, be participating in the Covid 19 50 Ebay challenge as I spent the allotted funds on a loose UG microtor movement last night after possibly too much Rioja .

    I like the cut o' your jib.

  9. #59
    Grand Master
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    Sussex
    Posts
    10,302
    Blog Entries
    1
    Quote Originally Posted by Carlton-Browne View Post
    Exactly. Any vintage collector worth their salt will have stuff squirreled away and there's a good chance the individual is out there with everything needed to get this into shape. I won't, for example, be participating in the Covid 19 50 Ebay challenge as I spent the allotted funds on a loose UG microtor movement last night after possibly too much Rioja .
    Surely that's an entry in itself? Does it tick?

  10. #60
    Master sweets's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Bristol - UK
    Posts
    5,081
    Quote Originally Posted by M4tt View Post
    Excellent, thanks. I bought the story based upon this image from recovery which appears consistent with an allproof:


    But between the diary entry and the other photo, it's clearly not. One step forward, one step back. Thanks for the correction. I'm a bit disappointed as the idea of the teeny allproof in space always tickled me
    The Wittnauer is there, Armstrong wore a watch on both wrists.
    You can look up all the Gemini 8 pre-launch photos (online) and there are very clear ones on the walk to/from the transfer vehicle to the launch pad. He clearly wears a Speedie over his glove cuff on the left side, and a much smaller white-dialled watch on the right.
    I was the one who found the above photo in high def and posted it up on the WUS Space Topics forum (and the ATG forum) about 12 or 13 years ago, so I looked up all the photos.
    Can't find the link here, but you can see on this photo he has a Speedie LEFT wrist, and an assitional velcro strap on the right.



    And the watch above (in the splashdown photo) is (as you would clearly identify) not black dialled.
    Now, whether the watch given by Mattern to Armstrong was actually the one he wore attempting his round the world flight that ended in a disastrous crash mid-Siberia, well, that is another matter, but the fact that Armstrong wore a Mattern watch on the right wrist is beyond dispute

    D

  11. #61
    Grand Master Carlton-Browne's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Berlin, London and sometimes Dublin
    Posts
    13,628
    Quote Originally Posted by M4tt View Post
    Surely that's an entry in itself? Does it tick?
    Unfortunately not - slightly over on price and also postage.
    Die Zeit verwandelt uns nicht, sie entfaltet uns nur.

  12. #62
    Grand Master Mr Curta's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Location
    Mainly UK
    Posts
    13,758
    Quote Originally Posted by sweets View Post
    The Wittnauer is there, Armstrong wore a watch on both wrists.
    I don't think that anybody is disputing that. The question regards the common assumption that it was an Allproof, which has grown legs due to numerous internet articles.

    Here's the full NASA Gemini VIII image that I posted a crop of earlier.

    Inform - Educate - Entertain

  13. #63
    Grand Master
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    Sussex
    Posts
    10,302
    Blog Entries
    1
    I'm convinced, it's just unfortunate that the splashdown picture clearly has the watch partially occluded by folds of fabric and thus looking just as an Allproof would look relative to the strap. However, the images provided and the diary entry has to put this to bed permanently. More to the point, it is precisely this sort of careful revision based upon research that moves us forward from internet echo chambers, so all credit to Curta for working it out and sharing it.
    Last edited by M4tt; 31st July 2021 at 19:07.

  14. #64
    Grand Master Mr Curta's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Location
    Mainly UK
    Posts
    13,758
    I can't claim a great deal of credit, it's built on something I read on the Space Watches Facebook Group a while back and had been meaning to dig into a bit further.
    Inform - Educate - Entertain

  15. #65
    Grand Master
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    Sussex
    Posts
    10,302
    Blog Entries
    1
    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Curta View Post
    I can't claim a great deal of credit, it's built on something I read on the Space Watches Facebook Group a while back and had been meaning to dig into a bit further.
    Still cool, you should work it up into a proper post - something like this deserves to be spread properly. As I don't do facebook, I'd have missed it. My biggest problem with it is I have read some of the stuff Lindbergh wrote and he's a grade A scumbag which would put me right off anything he had anything to do with. I know that's not rational, but a straight Weems would be so much better.

  16. #66
    Master sweets's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Bristol - UK
    Posts
    5,081
    I may well have been part of that leg growing (See HERE from 2007, my post is #10). The simple chain of logic reads
    Armstrong wanted to take along something of Mattern's, as he was a hero of Amrstrong's.
    Mattern himself gave Amrstrong his watch to take.
    Mattern's only watch of record was an Allproof, Wittnauer made hay in terms of the marketing for quite a while afterwards, with letters written by Mattern praising its ability to wothstand anything.
    So this link has been assumed.
    However, it is certianly true that 30+ years after that flight, Mattern may well have provided Armstrong with a later watch. It certainly looks it.

    Mea culpa

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

Do Not Sell My Personal Information