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Thread: is it fake? 1960s Omega Speedmaster - did you ever seen a dial like this?

  1. #1
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    is it fake? 1960s Omega Speedmaster - did you ever seen a dial like this?

    Sorry guys, this is the only picture I can get.
    Did you ever seen a dial like this one before? Look at the sub dials markings. Is this a refinished dial or is it just fake.



    Last edited by benbenny; 27th July 2021 at 21:36.

  2. #2
    Master Sinnlover's Avatar
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    I would say a very badly refinished dial

  3. #3
    Grand Master Wallasey Runner's Avatar
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    Tricky one based on that poor quality picture. Not seen those sub dials before which could rule out a fake as they tend to copy watches rather than make things up. Looks pre-professional so would date it to the early to mid 60s if it was a genuine watch. Would be handy to know the first part of the serial number.

    Seems to have a stepped dial, but the lume looks odd for sure.

    Whatís the back story here, is it offered for sale or has someone come across it in a family estate etc.

    Without some clearer pictures itís difficult to go any further. There are plenty of Speedmaster experts around who know far more than me.

  4. #4
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    Looks like a pile of shit to me, might be useful for parts but somehow I doubt it.

  5. #5
    Grand Master Wallasey Runner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by walkerwek1958 View Post
    Looks like a pile of shit to me, might be useful for parts but somehow I doubt it.
    Now you have said that it will probably be one of only 3 or 4 ever made for some specific purpose and is worth an absolute shedload
    Last edited by Wallasey Runner; 27th July 2021 at 20:56.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wallasey Runner View Post
    Now you have said that it will probably be one of only 3 or 4 ever made for some specific purpose and is worth an absolute shedload
    Still a pile of shit, though.

  7. #7
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    I t reminds me of the radial dial stuff, although I've not seen a dial like that before. The subdial geometry looks right, as does the Omega, So I think it's possibly both real and interesting. If it is something out of the ordinary, and you can work out what, then it could be a bit special. A photo of the back perhaps?

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by walkerwek1958 View Post
    Still a pile of shit, though.
    Why? It's a battered vintage watch which isn't obviously fake and could be really interesting. You can even see the missing hand tucked away at 12 o clock. It could be quite important or it could brush up a treat.
    Last edited by M4tt; 27th July 2021 at 21:10.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wallasey Runner View Post
    Tricky one based on that poor quality picture. Not seen those sub dials before which could rule out a fake as they tend to copy watches rather than make things up. Looks pre-professional so would date it to the early to mid 60s if it was a genuine watch. Would be handy to know the first part of the serial number.

    Seems to have a stepped dial, but the lume looks odd for sure.

    Whatís the back story here, is it offered for sale or has someone come across it in a family estate etc.

    Without some clearer pictures itís difficult to go any further. There are plenty of Speedmaster experts around who know far more than me.
    Yes the lume looks also strange to me. I dont think its lume att all, but hard to say from this picture. If you look closely it seems that the hands are also missing the lume? Is it maybe a issue to the Navy submariners? I do know that watches with radium were not allowed in submariners and were therefore issues without any lume? just guessing

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by walkerwek1958 View Post
    Still a pile of shit, though.
    Archie..?? Is that you?

  11. #11
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    Im guessing old redial . OMEGA font looks off , need to check but shouldnt that be a flat topped A ?

  12. #12
    Master Kirk280's Avatar
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    It might be a prototype?!
    Last edited by Kirk280; 27th July 2021 at 22:30.

  13. #13
    Grand Master Chris_in_the_UK's Avatar
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    Junk, prototype junk.......
    When you look long into an abyss, the abyss looks long into you.........

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Chris_in_the_UK View Post
    Junk, prototype junk.......
    An original Omega prototype is unlikely to be called 'junk' by the likes of Phillips' auction house

    Even if it does look a bit tatty...and the bezel having the ultra rare 'CON' format (crud over ninety)

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    Quote Originally Posted by hughtrimble View Post
    An original Omega prototype is unlikely to be called 'junk' by the likes of Phillips' auction house

    Even if it does look a bit tatty...and the bezel having the ultra rare 'CON' format (crud over ninety)
    I think he was noting the irony of the tension between juxtaposition of junk and prototype.

  16. #16
    Grand Master Chris_in_the_UK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by M4tt View Post
    I think he was noting the irony of the tension between juxtaposition of junk and prototype.
    Correct!
    When you look long into an abyss, the abyss looks long into you.........

  17. #17
    Based on those pictures, I wouldn't want to commit either way as to genuine or not, but my instinct is saying not; mishmash of subdial fonts, none of which look right and the hour hand doesn't match the minute hand (length of lume and hand appears a tad too wide).

  18. #18
    Master Tetlee's Avatar
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    My feeling is it's a vintage fake.

  19. #19
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    Why would anyone produce a dial with 3 completely different fonts on the subdials?

    A dial refinisher may not be able to produce the exact font, so they use the closest they have available, but Iíd expect all 3 to be consistent.

    Prototype?...........does anyone really believe this?

    Itís a pile of shit, there may be some value for parts but thatís all, thatís my take on it but I find the whole scruffy vintage Speedmaster thing highly amusing. Kings new clothes syndrome.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by walkerwek1958 View Post
    Why would anyone produce a dial with 3 completely different fonts on the subdials?

    A dial refinisher may not be able to produce the exact font, so they use the closest they have available, but I’d expect all 3 to be consistent.

    Prototype?...........does anyone really believe this?

    It’s a pile of shit, there may be some value for parts but that’s all, that’s my take on it but I find the whole scruffy vintage Speedmaster thing highly amusing. Kings new clothes syndrome.
    Ok, so if it's good for parts you are acknowledging that you don't think it's a fake. I agree, it's not immediately obvious that it is. If it is, then it's not using Russian or Chinese movements and the dials have the right functions, based on the numbers.

    To me, there are two strong reasons for not thinking it's a redial - the metal Omega symbol looks fresh, and that is almost impossible to get right in a redial and, more importantly, if you look at the seconds, there are five marks per second. This is an oddity about the Speedmaster - the original Speedmaster ticked five times a second, the later beat six. Omega, in their wisdom, didn't change the dials. It seems monumentally unlikely that a redial that screwed up the fonts would use an archaic beat rate unless it was a watch that used it.

    In a chronograph there are plenty of reasons for different fonts if you want to be sure that someone is reading the correct dial at a glance. Look at some of the later Speedmasters.

    As for scruffy old Speedmasters, That a watch can be worn and loved to that level of wear is possibly the most convincing thing about it, show me a well worn fake.
    Last edited by M4tt; 28th July 2021 at 11:35.

  21. #21
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    A quick look inside would tell us all a lot more about this one, there really isn`t much to go on from the picture!

    I know little about Speedmaster fakes, I don`t get involved with the vintage Speedy thing at all.

    OP hasn`t told us where he sourced the picture, is he thinking of buying it and doesn`t want to disclose too much?

    Anyone thinking of buying this needs their head testing IMO, even if it's a genuine period watch with a badly refinished dial and horrible bezel it's still a pile of shit. The movement's hardly likely to be in decent condition so as a viable watch it makes little sense to me.

    Anyone who wants a decent early example would be better advised to look for one and pay the going rate, personally I think that's a daft thing to do too but not as daft as buying this thing.

  22. #22
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    Oh well, you are the expert.

    I think it's a pre moon Speedmaster, possibly an 105.012 65 but with an odd dial. This could be a redial, but the consistency of condition either means it was a long time ago or, more likely it was a special use. The condition of the dial would leave me quite optimistic that the Cal.321 movement would be in decent condition as far as corrosion goes. However, it's clearly been extremely well worn over decades, so it might still cost a fortune to sort wear, rather than corrosion, out. Face it, unless you like that dial, then getting an original dial would be prohibitively expensive and would drive a nail though any value, so, while it may not be a great buying proposition, While I'm no Chuck, I think it's a real mid to late sixties Speedmaster.

    There's a useful article on refinished dials here:

    https://www.hodinkee.com/articles/how-to-spot-a-redial

    It expresses my philosophy on ebay perfectly...
    Last edited by M4tt; 28th July 2021 at 11:45.

  23. #23
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    Load of shite dial and bezel. Might, just might have a 321 movement inside though if geniune which means it has parts value. I suppose the stepped dial has value as a redial blank if it is in fact geniune. The hour hand is wrong for any 321 Speedmaster, though the spear chrono might be right.

    The theories about submarines and deliberately missing lume are pretty preposterous, especially since every Pro had tritium not radium lume AFAIK. The last radium dial model was the 2998 straight lug, or very possibly the 105.002-62.
    Last edited by Padders; 28th July 2021 at 11:39.

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Padders View Post
    Load of shite dial and bezel. Might, just might have a 321 movement inside though if geniune which means it has parts value. I suppose the stepped dial has value as a redial blank if it is in fact geniune. The hour hand is wrong for any 321 Speedmaster, though the spear chrono might be right.

    The theories about submarines and deliberately missing lume are pretty preposterous, especially since every Pro had tritium not radium lume AFAIK. The last radium dial model was the 2998 straight lug, or very possibly the 105.002-62.
    I see your point, comparing it to my Speedmaster, The stem before the lume is a bit too long - like the Reduced. Good spot. However, given the quality of the image, it could just be that the lume is intact there?

  25. #25
    Master sweets's Avatar
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    This is a hashed up dial reprint, surely.
    The 3 and 9 sub-dials match for font (if not for size), with a relatively old font and rail scales, probably a 50's design, a cliche the printer had from something else, but it was a 2-sub-dial chrono, so they have had to generate another one for the 12-hr sub-dial at 6, and have just found a totally different-fonted sub-dial knocking about in their cliche bin.

    There is no way Omega would have used these different scales, especially as they date from totally different design "periods".

    Dial printers seem to do this all the time, use inappropriate designs, fonts or scales. I remember commenting on one Brendan had printed here before (may be G-P chrono, can't quite recall). The fonts were nothing like the original, it looked dreadful to me.

    So i suspect that a perfectly fine (albeit damaged, faded or corroded) Speedie dial lurks beneath that bad re-print.

    The different sized centre bosses on the sub dial hands also indicate it has been messed with before.
    As well as no balls on the cock'n'balls 12 marker.

    For my money it is merely a bad dial reprint.

  26. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Padders View Post
    Load of shite dial and bezel. Might, just might have a 321 movement inside though if geniune which means it has parts value. I suppose the stepped dial has value as a redial blank if it is in fact geniune. The hour hand is wrong for any 321 Speedmaster, though the spear chrono might be right.

    The theories about submarines and deliberately missing lume are pretty preposterous, especially since every Pro had tritium not radium lume AFAIK. The last radium dial model was the 2998 straight lug, or very possibly the 105.002-62.
    I see your point, comparing it to my Speedmaster, The stem before the lume is a bit too long - like the Reduced. Good spot. However, given the quality of the image, it could just be that the lume is intact there?

  27. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by sweets View Post
    This is a hashed up dial reprint, surely.
    The 3 and 9 sub-dials match for font (if not for size), with a relatively old font and rail scales, probably a 50's design, a cliche the printer had from something else, but it was a 2-sub-dial chrono, so they have had to generate another one for the 12-hr sub-dial at 6, and have just found a totally different-fonted sub-dial knocking about in their cliche bin.

    There is no way Omega would have used these different scales, especially as they date from totally different design "periods".

    Dial printers seem to do this all the time, use inappropriate designs, fonts or scales. I remember commenting on one Brendan had printed here before (may be G-P chrono, can't quite recall). The fonts were nothing like the original, it looked dreadful to me.

    So i suspect that a perfectly fine (albeit damaged, faded or corroded) Speedie dial lurks beneath that bad re-print.

    The different sized centre bosses on the sub dial hands also indicate it has been messed with before.
    As well as no balls on the cock'n'balls 12 marker.

    For my money it is merely a bad dial reprint.
    That's me convinced. Cheers

  28. #28
    I vote original dial thatís been repainted

  29. #29
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    Interesting theories and informative facts. No I do not own this watch, Ive been offered this and thought I share this with the community to get more info to decide if I should make an offer. I did managed to get a few more pictures. Its a 105.012 from circa 65-67 I guess






  30. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by M4tt View Post

    There's a useful article on refinished dials here:

    https://www.hodinkee.com/articles/how-to-spot-a-redial

    It expresses my philosophy on ebay perfectly...
    Interesting article, although I’m not a Hodinkee fan. The obsession with originality has gone way too far in my opinion, this was written in 2016 and it’s debatable whether such articles inform or influence, the originality obsession is like a snowball rolling downhill and the internet certainly gives it a huge shove with stuff like this. The gospel according to Hodinkee becomes accepted wisdom and prices are heavily influenced by originality or perceived originality even if the watch looks like the proverbial pile of shit.......it’s original shit so it must be worth a lot!

    The spin- off is what I call perceived aesthetic desirability, it becomes hip and cool to wear a scruffy watch simply because it’s original and the snowball gathers more momentum as it rolls. This trend has increased over the past 10 years and we’ve seen what I call ‘kings new clothes’ syndrome become the prevalent attitude amongst budding collectors who are new to the hobby.

    I like a nice vintage watch and I place a premium on original or genuine replacement dials (as opposed to refinished), but its less significant at the value level of collecting that appeals to me. However, the watch has to look sharp and fresh, anything more than slight patina to the dial and hands puts me right off and that was the prevailing attitude when I first got involved 20+ years ago.

    Edit: Just seen the pics.......save your brass and buy a good’un instead!
    Last edited by walkerwek1958; 28th July 2021 at 13:10.

  31. #31
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    As suspected, a relatively nice watch underneath a butchered dial.

  32. #32
    Grand Master Neil.C's Avatar
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    Just seen this.

    Lovely that it is a 105.012 but anyone thinking of purchasing would have to look long and hard unless it is cheap (doubtful).

    An original dial would do the trick but you'll never get one of those and a repainted dial would seriously dent it's value.
    Cheers,
    Neil.

    My Speedmaster website:

    http://www.freewebs.com/neil271052

  33. #33
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    Stand by my previous comments, canít see how this can possibly be worth buying, itís a tired old watch lacking dial, hands and bezel.

    If you really want a cal 321 model either pay top money for a really good one or forget it.

  34. #34
    Grand Master
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    The serial number dates it to around ď66Ē so at leat that marries up.

    Come on then Ben, we all want to know how much they are asking?
    Cheers,

    Ben



    ..... for I have become the Jedi of flippers


    " an extravagance is anything you buy that is of no earthly use to your wife "

  35. #35
    Where is Padders when you need him?:-)

  36. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by walkerwek1958 View Post
    Interesting article, although Iím not a Hodinkee fan. The obsession with originality has gone way too far in my opinion, this was written in 2016 and itís debatable whether such articles inform or influence, the originality obsession is like a snowball rolling downhill and the internet certainly gives it a huge shove with stuff like this. The gospel according to Hodinkee becomes accepted wisdom and prices are heavily influenced by originality or perceived originality even if the watch looks like the proverbial pile of shit.......itís original shit so it must be worth a lot!

    The spin- off is what I call perceived aesthetic desirability, it becomes hip and cool to wear a scruffy watch simply because itís original and the snowball gathers more momentum as it rolls. This trend has increased over the past 10 years and weíve seen what I call Ďkings new clothesí syndrome become the prevalent attitude amongst budding collectors who are new to the hobby.

    I like a nice vintage watch and I place a premium on original or genuine replacement dials (as opposed to refinished), but its less significant at the value level of collecting that appeals to me. However, the watch has to look sharp and fresh, anything more than slight patina to the dial and hands puts me right off and that was the prevailing attitude when I first got involved 20+ years ago.

    Edit: Just seen the pics.......save your brass and buy a goodíun instead!
    I'm happy to wear a 'pile of shit' with a nice movement in splendid condition, but not the other way around. I really don't care about 'value levels' I buy what appeals to me. I can get as much of a charge from something brilliant for twenty quid as two thousand. I'd buy this, but I would expect to be significantly poorer for doing so. I'm also acutely aware that I can get 1MW stuff that has equal claim to space wonder for two orders of magnitude less.

  37. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by ben4watches View Post
    The serial number dates it to around “66” so at leat that marries up.

    Come on then Ben, we all want to know how much they are asking?
    It is offered on eBay in auction. I didn't want to share it in the beginning sothat nobody would snap it away. But now I know a bit more about it im not interested in it anymore.

    Seems like if the seller doesnt know much about wacthes and doesnt have a watch sale history. Lets see how much it will go for with that dial.

    https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/164980870...6&toolid=10001


  38. #38
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    I bet that will stay cheap until ten seconds before the end, at which point it will be heading for the moon. There's then a fifty fifty chance of buyer's regret and a relisting. IMHO. I'm gratified that I can still spot a good one in disguise.

  39. #39
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    I just can’t see the value in this watch unless you have a period correct dial, bezel and handset kicking around.

    Restoring it with service replacement items defeats the object, totally wrong way to go, so that leaves the lucky new owner with the task of sourcing a dial, hands and bezel. No matter which way I look at this it doesn’t add up.

    Omega made some super watches in the 60s, I own some excellent examples, but the Speedmaster wasn’t exactly cutting edge in its heyday. Without the space connection the watch would be very much an ‘also ran’, a nice enough design with a rugged movement but nothing special. I’ll never understand how they’ve become so revered, they’re OK but Omega made some far nicer watches. The movement’s positively agricultural compared to a Zenith El Primero, can’t see why folks get so excited about the 321 but they do.

    By coincidence I’ve just finished servicing my own Speedmaster, a 3510:50 reduced I’ve owned for many years, it ticks the Speedy box adequately and at 39mm it’s ideal for me. It’s needed servicing for a while and I finally got around to it yesterday, it’s back on my wrist ticking along nicely and it’ll get a light refinish when its picked up a few more marks.

  40. #40
    Master earlofsodbury's Avatar
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    Is someone robbing graves to get watches in this condition?

  41. #41
    Grand Master snowman's Avatar
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    Not really understanding the market, I can't understand why that's already reached the price it has.

    Looking at the movement pictures, there looks to be a lot of dirt (or maybe swarf) in there and a lot of the screws look pretty mistreated.

    M
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  42. #42
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    I enjoy a project but this is too far gone for me . I have seen crazy prices acheived for watches that are in this condition

  43. #43
    The terrible pictures don't help, why not a picture of the bracelet?

    Is the crown wonky?

  44. #44
    Grand Master Neil.C's Avatar
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    I think project watches can often fetch more they are worth. People can get excited about them.

    They can often spend more money (and have something not original) than buying a decent one to start with.
    Cheers,
    Neil.

    My Speedmaster website:

    http://www.freewebs.com/neil271052

  45. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by RAJEN View Post
    Where is Padders when you need him?:-)
    Do you mean me old chap? I posted further up. I don't think I was too far off with my suppositions in case you were being arch

    There is a few grand of value in the case, movement, crown and dial blank here. I can't see why he is hiding the bracelet other than to show the clasp marks which tell you nothing so it might be best to assign nothing there. It looks like it is US sale only which will rule many out here.

    As already stated, unless you have a DON bezel and narrow T stepped Pro dial sitting around (don't we all) I would suggest this isn't a viable project watch, that is unless you want a complete redial candidate. It could cost upwards of £6K to replace the bezel and dial.
    Last edited by Padders; 29th July 2021 at 16:19.

  46. #46
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    321 movement, case, bracelet, looks like original hands with spearpoint chrono - that will do very well I imagine, marry it to a nice dial and DON insert with right font and you would have a nice watch post service of course..

  47. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by snowman View Post
    Not really understanding the market, I can't understand why that's already reached the price it has.

    Looking at the movement pictures, there looks to be a lot of dirt (or maybe swarf) in there and a lot of the screws look pretty mistreated.

    M
    It's pretty simple. When Buzz Aldrin walked on the moon, this is the exact and precise model of Speedmaster he wore, from the same year and with a serial number less than 2000 away from the watch issued to Armstrong. It wouldn't say 'professional' on the dial for the same reason that the Accutrons you really want don't say Astronaut.



    Frankly, if this hadn't been advertised quite so heavily and was available in the UK, I'd be plotting a bid significantly higher than this, because I was just old enough to literally wet myself when Aldrin went on his first spacewalk. I'd wet myself to get one of these. Aldrin may have got the glory, but apart from this one, I have all the other watches that Armstrong wore into space (even the AllProof) in their period versions. I can't justify paying cost, but a cheeky bargain? for that, even I'd consider a careful redial, because there's no way on God's earth I'd sell it. I think the movement looks as good as I'd expect and I have a couple of 320s I'd happily sacrifice to revive this.

    For me, the value isn't in the watch, it's in my imagination. I'll pay good money to be as close to the real thing as I can get. This is as close to the real thing as you can realistically get. Perhaps more to the point, while it might be nice to have a watch from a hundred years ago that looks shiny, there's something great about a watch that has been worn away by use but which can still be brought back to life and worn again. It's not about value or authenticity, it's about a connection. Every watch has a history. Some have an explicit history, but a lot have an implicit history revealed by wear and service marks. I value that. That most people don't just makes it easier to scratch that itch.
    Last edited by M4tt; 29th July 2021 at 23:37.

  48. #48
    Master murkeywaters's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by M4tt View Post
    It's pretty simple. When Buzz Aldrin walked on the moon, this is the exact and precise model of Speedmaster he wore, from the same year and with a serial number less than 2000 away from the watch issued to Armstrong. It wouldn't say 'professional' on the dial for the same reason that the Accutrons you really want don't say Astronaut.

    Frankly, if this hadn't been advertised quite so heavily and was available in the UK, I'd be plotting a bid significantly higher than this, ..........................
    Think we were chipped off the same block when it comes to Speedmasters, a lot of people don't get the fascination buts thats fine, if everyone thought like us the prices would be even more crazy!

    I have a Speedy that came off the production line 18 days before Gene Cernan's 105.003, its no big deal but its a nice thought my watch is reasonably close to this iconic Speedmaster, would love to know the serial numbers/production dates of the other Gemini watches..

  49. #49
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    No idea what it's worth or where it'll finish, but I reckon you could have it serviced by an accredited independent and fitted with a new dial, hands and insert for under 2k.

    The Superluminova and shiny insert with the dot in the wrong place might grate, but they'd tide you over while searching for the original parts and the service dial etc will have retained the majority of what they cost when you've found the original replacements.

    It could be a cheap way into a nice 321 if you've got the patience.

  50. #50
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    I find it hard to imagine that anyone who collects watches doesn't have at least a bit of that. It's hard to approach the Speedmaster neutrally. I'm not always aware of the moon, but sometimes it's suddenly there, just floating serenely in space. That we swerved a nuclear war and, at least partly, went there instead, still blows my mind.

    Both the Accutrons and the Speedmasters were part of that and even if they were awful, which they are not, I'd still want them! The Speedmaster was developed from a thirties Lemania Calibre and lord there are some bodges in there. The number of cogs and wheels between the hour hand and the minute hand, is hilarious and in the later models, having a watch that ticks six times a second on a dial that has five graduations per second means this is a watch that will never hit the markers, however, any Moonwatch was an early grail and a watch like this one will always grab my attention, which is why I've spent enough time staring to be able to just have a feeling, and trust it.

    In fact, while this:

    https://www.intlwatchleague.com/show...hlight=everest

    Isn't actually about the Speedmaster per se, it gives a sense of how obsessed I might be on a bad day. Later in the thread I get pushed hard by someone who deserved to be right!
    Last edited by M4tt; 30th July 2021 at 08:07.

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