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Thread: Ebay 'not as described' Hell Help

  1. #1
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    Ebay 'not as described' Hell Help

    Hi folks, very sorry to burden this with you all but I'm stuck with a ebay issue. I sold a nomos 701 over a month a go and the buyer, who obviously didn't think much of it, sold it on.

    It seems I foolishly listed the item as 'automatic' when it's obviously manual.

    The 2nd buyer has now had it verified at a jewellers that it's manual and wants to return it. Consequently the 1st buyer is threatening me with a ebay 'not as described' case and looking for a refund.

    Thing is, I really don't believe the 2nd buyer thought it was automatic (he sells a lot of decent watches). Also, I sold it as new but now it's 3rd hand and had the case back opened etc.

    Can I have your thoughts on this? The sale was over the 30 days but not sure if I'm thinking illogically about the refund.

    Sent from my CPH2005 using Tapatalk

  2. #2
    Grand Master Mr Curta's Avatar
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    If it's been over a month since the buyer took delivery then I think it's too late for them to raise a case.

    https://pages.ebay.com/al/en-us/cove...ForBuyers.html
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  3. #3
    Have you got the records of the messages between you and the buyer? The only issue is you put automatic and it’s manual which technically is “Not as described” but the seller has sold it on and it’s a 3rd party raising a claim against him. As you have said how can you verify anything from a 3rd party?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Curta View Post
    If it's been over a month since the buyer took delivery then I think it's too late for them to raise a case.

    https://pages.ebay.com/al/en-us/cove...ForBuyers.html
    Thanks, strange they needed a jeweller to verify the movement when the model number, manual and website all confirm.

    Was getting worried I was being unfair

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    Quote Originally Posted by robert75 View Post
    Have you got the records of the messages between you and the buyer? The only issue is you put automatic and it’s manual which technically is “Not as described” but the seller has sold it on and it’s a 3rd party raising a claim against him. As you have said how can you verify anything from a 3rd party?
    So far the only messages I've had is that the third party wishes to return it as it's not as described'. The original buyer wants to do then report the original item as 'not as described'.

  6. #6

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Murraypops View Post
    So far the only messages I've had is that the third party wishes to return it as it's not as described'. The original buyer wants to do then report the original item as 'not as described'.
    Eh?

    Presumably the original buyer sold it on as “manual wind” so why didn’t he check first? You have no idea what condition the watch has been in since it left you. I can understand if he had it for a few days and only got around to checking but in theory he has also made a misleading sale.

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    Quote Originally Posted by robert75 View Post
    Eh?

    Presumably the original buyer sold it on as “manual wind” so why didn’t he check first? You have no idea what condition the watch has been in since it left you. I can understand if he had it for a few days and only got around to checking but in theory he has also made a misleading sale.
    The original buyer sold it as 'automatic' so he did also make an misleading sale. If it had been a few days I'd probably accept it back but I can see it's got scratches since I sold it...that's before it went 3rd hand and went to the jewellers.

    Just a bit jittery as recently lost money on an ebay sale that didn't arrive (still can't talk about that one yet).

  9. #9
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    Honestly I wouldn't worry about it as your buyer has exceeded the 30 day period they had to return it. The second buyer can make a claim against your buyer but that's where it'll end. I'd very courteously explain that in a message to them and then ignore them.

  10. #10
    Craftsman Halitosis's Avatar
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    Ebay 'not as described' Hell Help

    So your buyer sold it on as an automatic (in good faith) but the third owner has pointed out the error and is returning it to the second owner, who as a result also wants to return it to you. I’d decline the return based on time and condition but offer a goodwill gesture of a suitable amount based on the difference between manual and automatic version values.

  11. #11
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    Did the buyer pay by paypal? If so they have 6 months to raise a claim if item not as described under paypal buyer protection. Don't think this case is as clear cut if the buyer has already admitted to selling it on and you can prove that though.

    https://www.paypal.com/pm/smarthelp/...ection-faq1269

  12. #12
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    I find eBay customer service okay. I would just call them.

    You the original seller are presumably a private seller. So only refund is for not as described or doesn’t work etc

    Is the second seller a business seller? If so I would argue he’s a pro and it’s fair game.

    If he’s not a business seller. I would then point out to eBay he’s buying and selling presumably for profit.
    The only reason somebody would be private but doing it as a business is for the fee offers.

    I bet he makes a few quid not giving eBay their 13% perhaps he needs advising of the bigger picture.

    Poor form from him trying to pass the risk back to you.
    He wouldn’t be complaining if you had described it as manual when it was auto if he sold it for a lot more.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sean89 View Post
    I find eBay customer service okay. I would just call them.

    You the original seller are presumably a private seller. So only refund is for not as described or doesn’t work etc

    Is the second seller a business seller? If so I would argue he’s a pro and it’s fair game.

    If he’s not a business seller. I would then point out to eBay he’s buying and selling presumably for profit.
    The only reason somebody would be private but doing it as a business is for the fee offers.

    I bet he makes a few quid not giving eBay their 13% perhaps he needs advising of the bigger picture.

    Poor form from him trying to pass the risk back to you.
    He wouldn’t be complaining if you had described it as manual when it was auto if he sold it for a lot more.
    He's sold about a half dozen decent watches over the last month or so. Not business but certainly a watch fan. My listing had 'automatic watch' in the title alone (force of habit) while his seemed to have touted it as a rare 'much sought after model'...which doesn't actually exist.

  14. #14
    Master davidj54's Avatar
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    I’d send a polite message saying that you won’t be accepting a return or offering a refund at this stage as he’s not only exceeded the 30 day period, he’s sold it on himself to a third party who has had it opened up. It’s no longer in the condition in which it was sold.

  15. #15
    I'm pretty sure as he has sold it he no longer has a claim on you. I would call eBay but as far as I'm aware it's no longer you're responsibility if he's sold it on and especially if he sold it on eBay.

    Sent from my SM-N976B using Tapatalk

  16. #16
    Master blackal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by davidj54 View Post
    I’d send a polite message saying that you won’t be accepting a return or offering a refund at this stage as he’s not only exceeded the 30 day period, he’s sold it on himself to a third party who has had it opened up. It’s no longer in the condition in which it was sold.

    Yes, my overriding feeling is that his misrepresentation of the watch to his buyer (albeit unintentionally) - has no recourse back to you.

    The buck stops with him.

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    Thanks everyone. I'm going with the polite decline approach.

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by blackal View Post
    Yes, my overriding feeling is that his misrepresentation of the watch to his buyer (albeit unintentionally) - has no recourse back to you.

    The buck stops with him.
    Yes this is what I was alluding to. You may have made a mistake with your listing but so has he. He can’t now turn to the original seller and expect them to cover the cost of his mistake. It would be different if he had just bought the watch but that is not the case here.

  19. #19
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    to be returned it has to be in the same condition.
    I tried to clean a record sent to me,by doing that it invalidated my right to return it even though it wasnt as described.

  20. #20
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    Just be prepared for a negative feedback if the original buyer didn’t put one!

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    Quote Originally Posted by gaurav_tzuk View Post
    Just be prepared for a negative feedback if the original buyer didn’t put one!
    Yeah, thing is he's already given glowing feedback on the sale. :-)

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Murraypops View Post
    The original buyer sold it as 'automatic' so he did also make an misleading sale. If it had been a few days I'd probably accept it back but I can see it's got scratches since I sold it...that's before it went 3rd hand and went to the jewellers.

    Just a bit jittery as recently lost money on an eBay sale that didn't arrive (still can't talk about that one yet).
    Sparing a thought for the person who's ended up stuck with this.

    From their perspective you sold an automatic, which turned out not to be true. Evidently they believed it or else they wouldn't have sold it on as the same, so I think it's unreasonable to imply they would have known otherwise. Nomos automatics do sell for a decent premium over hand-wind watches. While I agree they should have checked they were completely happy with the watch before selling it on, I do think they've ended up quite hard done by here. Will be interesting to see what PayPal make of it, if they decide to push a claim via that path.

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    Quote Originally Posted by M1011 View Post
    Sparing a thought for the person who's ended up stuck with this.

    From their perspective you sold an automatic, which turned out not to be true. Evidently they believed it or else they wouldn't have sold it on as the same, so I think it's unreasonable to imply they would have known otherwise. Nomos automatics do sell for a decent premium over hand-wind watches. While I agree they should have checked they were completely happy with the watch before selling it on, I do think they've ended up quite hard done by here. Will be interesting to see what PayPal make of it, if they decide to push a claim via that path.
    Yeah, I get that and did want to get a consensus opinion before I jumped the gun. I can only think what I would do if I was in the position of the original buyer. Important to note that I didn't make a profit from selling the watch as a 'automatic' rather than 'manual' (going on historic values) and agree that would be unfair.

    These type of watches tend to go for an even price on ebay. I would be inclined to sell it again with the correct listing.

  24. #24
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    I've got limited sympathy for the buyer. He had ample opportunity and a system well biased in his favour. Although the OP made a mistake, the buyers mistake is greater: to leave this past the 30-days and subsequently sell on so that the watch is potentially no longer in the condition as sold.

    I don't actually understand why there has been so much confusion caused? Surely someone buying a Nomos knows what he is buying...aren't auto and manual versions completely different diameters? Wouldn't he have worn the thing and realised it stopped if he didn't wear it?!

  25. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Murraypops View Post
    Yeah, thing is he's already given glowing feedback on the sale. :-)
    Bear in mind that they could add an additional comment under their original feedback (but can't change the positive rating) although I'm not sure if the additional comments appear when viewing eBay on a mobile device anyway.

    It's a tricky situation. Obviously it's a totally honest mistake but technically the watch isn't as described. The buyer was happy with the watch but is it their responsibility to realise the error before they sell it on (and did they advertise it as manual or automatic)? But also is your responsibility to take a watch back when it has gone to a 3rd party?

    The other factor is value, is a manual version worth less than an automatic version (assuming there is a similar automatic version available)?

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    Quote Originally Posted by watchcollector1 View Post
    Bear in mind that they could add an additional comment under their original feedback (but can't change the positive rating) although I'm not sure if the additional comments appear when viewing eBay on a mobile device anyway.

    It's a tricky situation. Obviously it's a totally honest mistake but technically the watch isn't as described. The buyer was happy with the watch but is it their responsibility to realise the error before they sell it on (and did they advertise it as manual or automatic)? But also is your responsibility to take a watch back when it has gone to a 3rd party?

    The other factor is value, is a manual version worth less than an automatic version (assuming there is a similar automatic version available)?
    He sold it as a automatic watch. Although there is no automatic version of this watch made by nomos their usual automatics go for a higher value. I would stress however that my sale, and his, went for the usual price of a 'correctly listed' watch in the condition and model number. I also don't think he was out to make a profit...but I do find it strange that he didn't work it out and that it needed to be inspected when the papers, website etc all clearly note that it's manual. I suppose you cant account for naivety.

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    The only other part of this saga that baffles me is that the original buyer has filled for a refund of a watch he doesn't currently own. The impression I get is the 2nd buyer is considering a refund, I'm not sure he's actually taken steps to ask for a refund nevermind send it back. Surely the original buyer should check the condition of the watch before any further action?!

  28. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gerald Genta View Post
    Did the buyer pay by paypal? If so they have 6 months to raise a claim if item not as described under paypal buyer protection.
    All the talk about the eBay 30-day rule is totally irrelevant if it turns out, as suggested here, that the buyer had paid by PayPal and they raise a dispute with PayPal, rather than with eBay.

    It's within the PayPal 180-day period for claiming Not As Described, and it would be difficult/impossible to challenge it when a Manual watch was described as Automatic. The buyer could legitimately claim that had to bring it to a watchmaker to confirm this. The fact that the buyer has since sold it on and is now taking it back is unlikely to affect the PayPal ruling (i.e. the item was Not As Described when first sold).

  29. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Murraypops View Post

    It seems I foolishly listed the item as 'automatic' when it's obviously manual.

    Also, I sold it as new but now it's 3rd hand and had the case back opened etc.

    Sent from my CPH2005 using Tapatalk

    A £700 item? If I was in a similar position of selling a manual watch as automatic by mistake, then I think I would take it back and give a refund irrespective of the fact that the buyer should have rejected it within 30 days, but on condition that it was in the same state as when originally sold, i.e. not trashed.

    For clarification what condition did you sell it in? New as in 'A brand-new, unused, unopened and undamaged item in the original packaging (where packaging is applicable). Packaging should be the same as what is found in the retail shop.' Or had it been opened, used a couple of times, maybe a minor scuff?
    Last edited by BillyCasper; 27th July 2021 at 16:05.

  30. #30
    Grand Master Neil.C's Avatar
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    You mis described the very essence of the watch and mistake or not you sold it as an automatic.

    The buyer took you at your word and sold it on and may very well give a refund to his buyer, now I guess he is looking askance to you?

    If he gets Paypal on to the case they will definitely side with him IMO.

    Personally I would take the watch back and give a refund.

    Mistake or not the item was not as described.
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  31. #31
    Master PhilipK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BillyCasper View Post
    irrespective of the fact that the buyer should have rejected it within 30 days
    As mentioned above, if it's a PayPal claim then it's 180 days, not 30 days, and the buyer is well within this timeframe.

  32. #32
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    I would presume when the original buyer received it he opened the box and again I presume that the hands were not moving
    Not being I ‘mechanical’ watch man myself but would one not have given it a shake to start the 2nd hand moving???
    On seeing it not move surly he would have looked a little closer at it
    My thought is that he’s just used your ad in a copy and phase fashion to ‘sell a similar item’ - he must have 100% known it was not an auto

  33. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by lewie View Post
    I would presume when the original buyer received it he opened the box and again I presume that the hands were not moving
    Not being I ‘mechanical’ watch man myself but would one not have given it a shake to start the 2nd hand moving???
    On seeing it not move surly he would have looked a little closer at it
    My thought is that he’s just used your ad in a copy and phase fashion to ‘sell a similar item’ - he must have 100% known it was not an auto
    lots of people wind rather than shake autos to start them up

  34. #34
    Master Christian's Avatar
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    I don't see why the OP should lose out if the middle-man buyer has sold it on and not had it in their possession all the time. I'd be initially refusing any refund.

  35. #35
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    Its automatic once wound tell him.

  36. #36
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    It's a tricky one.

    It wasn't what you said it was - Not everyone will know a specific watch isn't an automatic, I'm sure, although personally I'd do some research before buying.

    On the other hand, he had it and sold it on the same basis - Surely he should have recognised it wasn't an automatic pretty quickly?

    I guess he may claim he just didn't like the look of it when it arrived and never tried it. PayPal will probably side with him in this case, unless they decide that having sold it, he's no longer entitled to claim.

    As for 'take it back and give him a refund' - That would probably work on SC, but who is going to totally trust someone with something worth hundreds on eBay? Are you going to refund, before he sends it? Or is he supposed to send it before you refund?

    Either relies on a fair degree of trust which probably isn't there.

    I'd start off by saying you sold it, it's not my problem and see if PayPal are interested...

    M
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    Quote Originally Posted by snowman View Post
    It's a tricky one.

    It wasn't what you said it was - Not everyone will know a specific watch isn't an automatic, I'm sure, although personally I'd do some research before buying.

    On the other hand, he had it and sold it on the same basis - Surely he should have recognised it wasn't an automatic pretty quickly?

    I guess he may claim he just didn't like the look of it when it arrived and never tried it. PayPal will probably side with him in this case, unless they decide that having sold it, he's no longer entitled to claim.

    As for 'take it back and give him a refund' - That would probably work on SC, but who is going to totally trust someone with something worth hundreds on eBay? Are you going to refund, before he sends it? Or is he supposed to send it before you refund?

    Either relies on a fair degree of trust which probably isn't there.

    I'd start off by saying you sold it, it's not my problem and see if PayPal are interested...

    M
    I have no idea how the refund process works but obviously want to avoid a situation where I have to refund without receiving the item back.

  38. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by snowman View Post
    It's a tricky one.

    It wasn't what you said it was - Not everyone will know a specific watch isn't an automatic, I'm sure, although personally I'd do some research before buying.

    On the other hand, he had it and sold it on the same basis - Surely he should have recognised it wasn't an automatic pretty quickly?

    I guess he may claim he just didn't like the look of it when it arrived and never tried it. PayPal will probably side with him in this case, unless they decide that having sold it, he's no longer entitled to claim.

    As for 'take it back and give him a refund' - That would probably work on SC, but who is going to totally trust someone with something worth hundreds on eBay? Are you going to refund, before he sends it? Or is he supposed to send it before you refund?

    Either relies on a fair degree of trust which probably isn't there.

    I'd start off by saying you sold it, it's not my problem and see if PayPal are interested...

    M
    If the OP had listed it as "once owned by Princess Diana" - the purchaser has absolutely no recourse from a claim from his buyer - if that second buyer discovers that it wasn't.

    Claiming: "Yeahbut - he told me ..............................." cuts no mustard.

  39. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by blackal View Post
    If the OP had listed it as "once owned by Princess Diana" - the purchaser has absolutely no recourse from a claim from his buyer - if that second buyer discovers that it wasn't.

    Claiming: "Yeahbut - he told me ..............................." cuts no mustard.
    Says who? He absolutely would have recourse through eBay and PayPal if it's subsequently found the item wasn't as described.

    The grey area here is that the original buyer has not flagged within 30 days and the suspicion that the watch may no longer be in the same condition in which it was originally sold. That said, I'd personally be surprised if PayPal didn't side with the buyer on this.

    Still, can't hurt to politely decline and see where the cards fall.

  40. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Murraypops View Post
    I have no idea how the refund process works but obviously want to avoid a situation where I have to refund without receiving the item back.
    It will need to be returned to you by a Tracked method, and once the tracking shows that a delivery attempt has been made it will trigger the refund.

    Quote Originally Posted by M1011 View Post
    The grey area here is that the original buyer has not flagged within 30 days
    Once again, it is not 30 days for a PayPal claim; it is 180 days.

  41. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by PhilipK View Post
    [COLOR=#000080] Once again, it is not 30 days for a PayPal claim; it is 180 days.
    You must have missed the rest of my post.

    Also, unless I've missed it, OP hasn't confirmed if this was purchased via PayPal. eBay has been switching to it's own managed payments service for some time now. So, it remains a grey area, as stated.

  42. #42
    You said in the OP

    Quote Originally Posted by Murraypops View Post
    The 2nd buyer has now had it verified at a jewellers that it's manual
    and at multiple points in the thread thereafter make an issue of the fact that the watch

    Quote Originally Posted by Murraypops View Post
    had the case back opened [sic] etc.
    but, have you been told explicitly that the case was opened? It seems to me that any competent jeweller could make the assessment without doing so; it’s also possible that the second buyer has realised it’s a manual and confirmed his suspicions via Google, but embellished the expert verification element to improve his not-as-described case.

    In any event, and however inadvertently, is does appear that you misdescribed the item and in accepting PayPal’s Ts&Cs that does leave you with a long return window during which the item may have been subject to reasonable wear and tear.

  43. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by JGJG View Post
    In any event, and however inadvertently, is does appear that you misdescribed the item and in accepting PayPal’s Ts&Cs that does leave you with a long return window during which the item may have been subject to reasonable wear and tear.
    I don't really get this bit. You sell something by Paypal, and the buyer can use it, put "reasonable wear-and-tear" on it for 6-months then return it?! So you have to refund them and get back an item that the buyer has put wear and tear on?

  44. #44
    Master PhilipK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Christian View Post
    I don't really get this bit. You sell something by Paypal, and the buyer can use it, put "reasonable wear-and-tear" on it for 6-months then return it?! So you have to refund them and get back an item that the buyer has put wear and tear on?
    In theory it should be returned in the same condition that it was received in, but if an issue doesn't manifest itself for a few months, and the item has been in use for that time, then there will doubtless be some wear-and-tear on the item.

    PayPal are not going to investigate what condition the item is in (the vast majority of claims are determined by bots, with no human intervention) and will - in most cases - just insist on a return and refund.

    It's part of the decision process when deciding whether to sell with eBay and/or PayPal - if you don't like the 30- and 180-day return periods, then they are not the right platforms for you to use.

  45. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by PhilipK View Post
    It's part of the decision process when deciding whether to sell with eBay and/or PayPal - if you don't like the 30- and 180-day return periods, then they are not the right platforms for you to use.
    True - I think that is the key message. eBay and Paypal don't really want private sales, they prefer commercial entities using the platform and bias their trading rules as if you are a shop selling a new product with a warranty. 180 day return is ludicrous on a secondhand product unless that risk is factored into the price. If you don't factor the risk into the price, you are effectively selling used goods at private rates and offering the same terms as if it were new. For this reason, I am not sure I would ever sell anything of value on ebay.

  46. #46
    Grand Master Dave+63's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by M1011 View Post
    You must have missed the rest of my post.

    Also, unless I've missed it, OP hasn't confirmed if this was purchased via PayPal. eBay has been switching to it's own managed payments service for some time now. So, it remains a grey area, as stated.
    eBay do use their own managed payments but the buyer can still pay via PayPal; it just that they’re paying eBay who will then pay you.

    In this instance, I believe that, should PayPal decide to refund the buyer, they will take the money from eBay. eBay may or may not then take the refund from the OP. it’s not certain that they will given ebays 30 day rule.

  47. #47
    Master M1011's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Christian View Post
    180 day return is ludicrous on a secondhand product
    I don't think PayPal gives you a default 180 day return window. The issue here is it's not-as-described, if it was correctly described and the buyer just changed their mind, they wouldn't have a right to return.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dave+63 View Post
    eBay do use their own managed payments but the buyer can still pay via PayPal; it just that they’re paying eBay who will then pay you.

    In this instance, I believe that, should PayPal decide to refund the buyer, they will take the money from eBay. eBay may or may not then take the refund from the OP. it’s not certain that they will given ebays 30 day rule.
    They may have done, they may have paid on a credit card, a debit card, apple pay, google pay etc. Plus as you say, even if the buyer used PayPal, if via the eBay managed payments service I struggle to see how PayPal rules would be applied to the seller who had nothing to do with PayPal and theoretically doesn't even need to have a PayPal account, although it may be somewhere buried in eBays small print. Enough unknowns that I'm standing by my original assessment that it's a grey area

  48. #48
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    180 days grace to determine that a product is not as described is crazy

  49. #49
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    Does the 180 day PayPal scheme apply to private sales?

    sounds to me like the purchaser only bought the watch to flip for a profit. If it was a genuine purchase, he would have realised within a few days that the watch was manual when it stopped!

  50. #50
    Master Christian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stefaulkner View Post
    Does the 180 day PayPal scheme apply to private sales?

    sounds to me like the purchaser only bought the watch to flip for a profit. If it was a genuine purchase, he would have realised within a few days that the watch was manual when it stopped!
    Agree...this is what I was suspecting.

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