Ebay 'not as described' Hell Help

[Murraypops]

Hi folks, very sorry to burden this with you all but I'm stuck with a ebay issue. I sold a nomos 701 over a month a go and the buyer, who obviously didn't think much of it, sold it on.

It seems I foolishly listed the item as 'automatic' when it's obviously manual.

The 2nd buyer has now had it verified at a jewellers that it's manual and wants to return it. Consequently the 1st buyer is threatening me with a ebay 'not as described' case and looking for a refund.

Thing is, I really don't believe the 2nd buyer thought it was automatic (he sells a lot of decent watches). Also, I sold it as new but now it's 3rd hand and had the case back opened etc.

Can I have your thoughts on this? The sale was over the 30 days but not sure if I'm thinking illogically about the refund.

Sent from my CPH2005 using Tapatalk

[Mr Curta]

If it's been over a month since the buyer took delivery then I think it's too late for them to raise a case.

https://pages.ebay.com/al/en-us/cove...ForBuyers.html

[Murraypops]

If it's been over a month since the buyer took delivery then I think it's too late for them to raise a case.

https://pages.ebay.com/al/en-us/cove...ForBuyers.html

Thanks, strange they needed a jeweller to verify the movement when the model number, manual and website all confirm.

Was getting worried I was being unfair

[robert75]

Have you got the records of the messages between you and the buyer? The only issue is you put automatic and it’s manual which technically is “Not as described” but the seller has sold it on and it’s a 3rd party raising a claim against him. As you have said how can you verify anything from a 3rd party?

[Murraypops]

Have you got the records of the messages between you and the buyer? The only issue is you put automatic and it’s manual which technically is “Not as described” but the seller has sold it on and it’s a 3rd party raising a claim against him. As you have said how can you verify anything from a 3rd party?

So far the only messages I've had is that the third party wishes to return it as it's not as described'. The original buyer wants to do then report the original item as 'not as described'.

[junglebert]

[robert75]

So far the only messages I've had is that the third party wishes to return it as it's not as described'. The original buyer wants to do then report the original item as 'not as described'.

Eh?

Presumably the original buyer sold it on as “manual wind” so why didn’t he check first? You have no idea what condition the watch has been in since it left you. I can understand if he had it for a few days and only got around to checking but in theory he has also made a misleading sale.

[Murraypops]

Eh?

Presumably the original buyer sold it on as “manual wind” so why didn’t he check first? You have no idea what condition the watch has been in since it left you. I can understand if he had it for a few days and only got around to checking but in theory he has also made a misleading sale.

The original buyer sold it as 'automatic' so he did also make an misleading sale. If it had been a few days I'd probably accept it back but I can see it's got scratches since I sold it...that's before it went 3rd hand and went to the jewellers.

Just a bit jittery as recently lost money on an ebay sale that didn't arrive (still can't talk about that one yet).

[M1011]

The original buyer sold it as 'automatic' so he did also make an misleading sale. If it had been a few days I'd probably accept it back but I can see it's got scratches since I sold it...that's before it went 3rd hand and went to the jewellers.

Just a bit jittery as recently lost money on an eBay sale that didn't arrive (still can't talk about that one yet).

Sparing a thought for the person who's ended up stuck with this.

From their perspective you sold an automatic, which turned out not to be true. Evidently they believed it or else they wouldn't have sold it on as the same, so I think it's unreasonable to imply they would have known otherwise. Nomos automatics do sell for a decent premium over hand-wind watches. While I agree they should have checked they were completely happy with the watch before selling it on, I do think they've ended up quite hard done by here. Will be interesting to see what PayPal make of it, if they decide to push a claim via that path.

[TaketheCannoli]

Honestly I wouldn't worry about it as your buyer has exceeded the 30 day period they had to return it. The second buyer can make a claim against your buyer but that's where it'll end. I'd very courteously explain that in a message to them and then ignore them.

[Gerald Genta]

Did the buyer pay by paypal? If so they have 6 months to raise a claim if item not as described under paypal buyer protection. Don't think this case is as clear cut if the buyer has already admitted to selling it on and you can prove that though.

https://www.paypal.com/pm/smarthelp/...ection-faq1269

[Halitosis]

So your buyer sold it on as an automatic (in good faith) but the third owner has pointed out the error and is returning it to the second owner, who as a result also wants to return it to you. I’d decline the return based on time and condition but offer a goodwill gesture of a suitable amount based on the difference between manual and automatic version values.

[Sean89]

I find eBay customer service okay. I would just call them.

You the original seller are presumably a private seller. So only refund is for not as described or doesn’t work etc

Is the second seller a business seller? If so I would argue he’s a pro and it’s fair game.

If he’s not a business seller. I would then point out to eBay he’s buying and selling presumably for profit.
The only reason somebody would be private but doing it as a business is for the fee offers.

I bet he makes a few quid not giving eBay their 13% perhaps he needs advising of the bigger picture.

Poor form from him trying to pass the risk back to you.
He wouldn’t be complaining if you had described it as manual when it was auto if he sold it for a lot more.

[Murraypops]

I find eBay customer service okay. I would just call them.

You the original seller are presumably a private seller. So only refund is for not as described or doesn’t work etc

Is the second seller a business seller? If so I would argue he’s a pro and it’s fair game.

If he’s not a business seller. I would then point out to eBay he’s buying and selling presumably for profit.
The only reason somebody would be private but doing it as a business is for the fee offers.

I bet he makes a few quid not giving eBay their 13% perhaps he needs advising of the bigger picture.

Poor form from him trying to pass the risk back to you.
He wouldn’t be complaining if you had described it as manual when it was auto if he sold it for a lot more.

He's sold about a half dozen decent watches over the last month or so. Not business but certainly a watch fan. My listing had 'automatic watch' in the title alone (force of habit) while his seemed to have touted it as a rare 'much sought after model'...which doesn't actually exist.

[davidj54]

I’d send a polite message saying that you won’t be accepting a return or offering a refund at this stage as he’s not only exceeded the 30 day period, he’s sold it on himself to a third party who has had it opened up. It’s no longer in the condition in which it was sold.

[blackal]

I’d send a polite message saying that you won’t be accepting a return or offering a refund at this stage as he’s not only exceeded the 30 day period, he’s sold it on himself to a third party who has had it opened up. It’s no longer in the condition in which it was sold.

Yes, my overriding feeling is that his misrepresentation of the watch to his buyer (albeit unintentionally) - has no recourse back to you.

The buck stops with him.

[robert75]

Yes, my overriding feeling is that his misrepresentation of the watch to his buyer (albeit unintentionally) - has no recourse back to you.

The buck stops with him.

Yes this is what I was alluding to. You may have made a mistake with your listing but so has he. He can’t now turn to the original seller and expect them to cover the cost of his mistake. It would be different if he had just bought the watch but that is not the case here.

[sickie]

I'm pretty sure as he has sold it he no longer has a claim on you. I would call eBay but as far as I'm aware it's no longer you're responsibility if he's sold it on and especially if he sold it on eBay.

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[Murraypops]

Thanks everyone. I'm going with the polite decline approach.

[bwest76]

to be returned it has to be in the same condition.
I tried to clean a record sent to me,by doing that it invalidated my right to return it even though it wasnt as described.

[gaurav_tzuk]

Just be prepared for a negative feedback if the original buyer didn’t put one!

[Murraypops]

Just be prepared for a negative feedback if the original buyer didn’t put one!

Yeah, thing is he's already given glowing feedback on the sale. :-)

[watchcollector1]

Yeah, thing is he's already given glowing feedback on the sale. :-)

Bear in mind that they could add an additional comment under their original feedback (but can't change the positive rating) although I'm not sure if the additional comments appear when viewing eBay on a mobile device anyway.

It's a tricky situation. Obviously it's a totally honest mistake but technically the watch isn't as described. The buyer was happy with the watch but is it their responsibility to realise the error before they sell it on (and did they advertise it as manual or automatic)? But also is your responsibility to take a watch back when it has gone to a 3rd party?

The other factor is value, is a manual version worth less than an automatic version (assuming there is a similar automatic version available)?

[Murraypops]

Bear in mind that they could add an additional comment under their original feedback (but can't change the positive rating) although I'm not sure if the additional comments appear when viewing eBay on a mobile device anyway.

It's a tricky situation. Obviously it's a totally honest mistake but technically the watch isn't as described. The buyer was happy with the watch but is it their responsibility to realise the error before they sell it on (and did they advertise it as manual or automatic)? But also is your responsibility to take a watch back when it has gone to a 3rd party?

The other factor is value, is a manual version worth less than an automatic version (assuming there is a similar automatic version available)?

He sold it as a automatic watch. Although there is no automatic version of this watch made by nomos their usual automatics go for a higher value. I would stress however that my sale, and his, went for the usual price of a 'correctly listed' watch in the condition and model number. I also don't think he was out to make a profit...but I do find it strange that he didn't work it out and that it needed to be inspected when the papers, website etc all clearly note that it's manual. I suppose you cant account for naivety.

[Murraypops]

The only other part of this saga that baffles me is that the original buyer has filled for a refund of a watch he doesn't currently own. The impression I get is the 2nd buyer is considering a refund, I'm not sure he's actually taken steps to ask for a refund nevermind send it back. Surely the original buyer should check the condition of the watch before any further action?!

[andyb]

The only other part of this saga that baffles me is that the original buyer has filled for a refund of a watch he doesn't currently own. The impression I get is the 2nd buyer is considering a refund, I'm not sure he's actually taken steps to ask for a refund nevermind send it back. Surely the original buyer should check the condition of the watch before any further action?!

I see it as this; there are three parties and two transactions, the second of which you logically cannot have responsibility over. The dispute between the 1st and 2nd buyer is none of your business. You cannot guarantee the condition of the watch, the way it was packed and shipped or even if it was the same watch. If the first buyer is asking for a refund you should point this out to the buyer, eBay, paypal, etc.

To progress further, the return to the 1st buyer must complete (their refund, etc. to the 2nd is their business). It's only at this point that the 1st buyer is an a position to establish the nature and condition of the watch themselves, and then be able to return it to you and request a refund.

Your primary goal here is that the watch must be in your hands, in the condition as sold, for you to be able to make a refund.

[BillyCasper]

It seems I foolishly listed the item as 'automatic' when it's obviously manual.

Also, I sold it as new but now it's 3rd hand and had the case back opened etc.

Sent from my CPH2005 using Tapatalk

A £700 item? If I was in a similar position of selling a manual watch as automatic by mistake, then I think I would take it back and give a refund irrespective of the fact that the buyer should have rejected it within 30 days, but on condition that it was in the same state as when originally sold, i.e. not trashed.

For clarification what condition did you sell it in? New as in 'A brand-new, unused, unopened and undamaged item in the original packaging (where packaging is applicable). Packaging should be the same as what is found in the retail shop.' Or had it been opened, used a couple of times, maybe a minor scuff?

[Neil.C]

You mis described the very essence of the watch and mistake or not you sold it as an automatic.

The buyer took you at your word and sold it on and may very well give a refund to his buyer, now I guess he is looking askance to you?

If he gets Paypal on to the case they will definitely side with him IMO.

Personally I would take the watch back and give a refund.

Mistake or not the item was not as described.

[PhilipK]

irrespective of the fact that the buyer should have rejected it within 30 days

As mentioned above, if it's a PayPal claim then it's 180 days, not 30 days, and the buyer is well within this timeframe.

[lewie]

I would presume when the original buyer received it he opened the box and again I presume that the hands were not moving
Not being I ‘mechanical’ watch man myself but would one not have given it a shake to start the 2nd hand moving???
On seeing it not move surly he would have looked a little closer at it
My thought is that he’s just used your ad in a copy and phase fashion to ‘sell a similar item’ - he must have 100% known it was not an auto

[verv]

I would presume when the original buyer received it he opened the box and again I presume that the hands were not moving
Not being I ‘mechanical’ watch man myself but would one not have given it a shake to start the 2nd hand moving???
On seeing it not move surly he would have looked a little closer at it
My thought is that he’s just used your ad in a copy and phase fashion to ‘sell a similar item’ - he must have 100% known it was not an auto

lots of people wind rather than shake autos to start them up

[southerner101]

Its automatic once wound tell him.

[Christian]

I don't see why the OP should lose out if the middle-man buyer has sold it on and not had it in their possession all the time. I'd be initially refusing any refund.

[snowman]

It's a tricky one.

It wasn't what you said it was - Not everyone will know a specific watch isn't an automatic, I'm sure, although personally I'd do some research before buying.

On the other hand, he had it and sold it on the same basis - Surely he should have recognised it wasn't an automatic pretty quickly?

I guess he may claim he just didn't like the look of it when it arrived and never tried it. PayPal will probably side with him in this case, unless they decide that having sold it, he's no longer entitled to claim.

As for 'take it back and give him a refund' - That would probably work on SC, but who is going to totally trust someone with something worth hundreds on eBay? Are you going to refund, before he sends it? Or is he supposed to send it before you refund?

Either relies on a fair degree of trust which probably isn't there.

I'd start off by saying you sold it, it's not my problem and see if PayPal are interested...

M

[JGJG]

You said in the OP

The 2nd buyer has now had it verified at a jewellers that it's manual

and at multiple points in the thread thereafter make an issue of the fact that the watch

had the case back opened [sic] etc.

but, have you been told explicitly that the case was opened? It seems to me that any competent jeweller could make the assessment without doing so; it’s also possible that the second buyer has realised it’s a manual and confirmed his suspicions via Google, but embellished the expert verification element to improve his not-as-described case.

In any event, and however inadvertently, is does appear that you misdescribed the item and in accepting PayPal’s Ts&Cs that does leave you with a long return window during which the item may have been subject to reasonable wear and tear.

[Christian]

In any event, and however inadvertently, is does appear that you misdescribed the item and in accepting PayPal’s Ts&Cs that does leave you with a long return window during which the item may have been subject to reasonable wear and tear.

I don't really get this bit. You sell something by Paypal, and the buyer can use it, put "reasonable wear-and-tear" on it for 6-months then return it?! So you have to refund them and get back an item that the buyer has put wear and tear on?

[PhilipK]

I don't really get this bit. You sell something by Paypal, and the buyer can use it, put "reasonable wear-and-tear" on it for 6-months then return it?! So you have to refund them and get back an item that the buyer has put wear and tear on?

In theory it should be returned in the same condition that it was received in, but if an issue doesn't manifest itself for a few months, and the item has been in use for that time, then there will doubtless be some wear-and-tear on the item.

PayPal are not going to investigate what condition the item is in (the vast majority of claims are determined by bots, with no human intervention) and will - in most cases - just insist on a return and refund.

It's part of the decision process when deciding whether to sell with eBay and/or PayPal - if you don't like the 30- and 180-day return periods, then they are not the right platforms for you to use.

[Christian]

It's part of the decision process when deciding whether to sell with eBay and/or PayPal - if you don't like the 30- and 180-day return periods, then they are not the right platforms for you to use.

True - I think that is the key message. eBay and Paypal don't really want private sales, they prefer commercial entities using the platform and bias their trading rules as if you are a shop selling a new product with a warranty. 180 day return is ludicrous on a secondhand product unless that risk is factored into the price. If you don't factor the risk into the price, you are effectively selling used goods at private rates and offering the same terms as if it were new. For this reason, I am not sure I would ever sell anything of value on ebay.

[Plissk]

Hi folks, very sorry to burden this with you all but I'm stuck with a ebay issue. I sold a nomos 701 over a month a go and the buyer, who obviously didn't think much of it, sold it on.

It seems I foolishly listed the item as 'automatic' when it's obviously manual.

The 2nd buyer has now had it verified at a jewellers that it's manual and wants to return it. Consequently the 1st buyer is threatening me with a ebay 'not as described' case and looking for a refund.

Thing is, I really don't believe the 2nd buyer thought it was automatic (he sells a lot of decent watches). Also, I sold it as new but now it's 3rd hand and had the case back opened etc.

Can I have your thoughts on this? The sale was over the 30 days but not sure if I'm thinking illogically about the refund.

Sent from my CPH2005 using Tapatalk

If the watch was unworn and in original condition then you could accept a return within the return window (not sure if you specified 2 weeks or 4 weeks) but otherwise your buyer has not right to return it.

[PhilipK]

If the watch was unworn and in original condition then you could accept a return within the return window (not sure if you specified 2 weeks or 4 weeks) but otherwise your buyer has not right to return it.

What makes you think that?

The watch was advertised as an Automatic. It is a Manual. It is Significantly Not As Described. Hence the buyer has 30 (eBay) or 180 (PayPal) days in which to raise a - legitimate - SNAD claim, and it will be found in their favour. The "return window" is set by the selling or payment provider; the seller has no say in it.

[bobc]

I'm amazed that the op has posted this. You significantly mis described the watch as an auto when it's a manual. You are a member of a watch forum so it's a given that you have an interest in watches. Why oh why did you describe it as an auto. Some geezer buying a watch on Ebay is not necessarily a watch geek but merely a social buyer.
Personally I think you should refund and not look to squirm out of it because its gone down the line somewhat. You mis sold goods. Be the man and take it on the chin.

[blackal]

I'm amazed that the op has posted this. You significantly mis described the watch as an auto when it's a manual. You are a member of a watch forum so it's a given that you have an interest in watches. Why oh why did you describe it as an auto. Some geezer buying a watch on Ebay is not necessarily a watch geek but merely a social buyer.
Personally I think you should refund and not look to squirm out of it because its gone down the line somewhat. You mis sold goods. Be the man and take it on the chin.

Except that the buyer decided to sell it on without doing his own due diligence.

You're making up a script to suit your view, too.

[kace]

And it wasn't the kind of watch bought by average Joe without some research.

Had it been a £50 Rotary you might assume some naivety/ignorance by the purchaser.