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Thread: The Juducial System is broken

  1. #1
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    The Juducial System is broken

    Twenty three months ago i witnessed a bit of domestic violence at a premier inn in Essex,it was literally range rovers at dawn with a bit of ramming and slamming doors on the victims arm. I did the right thing and phoned the coppers and gave a statement over my breakfast. I hear nothing for 14 months then get a phone call from "ive just been given this" for a re run of my statement,at this point the finer points are not as fresh in my recollection as i would like. Last night another phone call, its scheduled for court Aug 2nd and they want me to appear, dont mind but at two years on i know my words will be taken to pieces and i will have to reply at some point i cant recall. Also this is quite short notice for me,i bet they knew months ago.

    My work is scheduled well in advance as i do adaptations for the elderly,disabled,and infirm, sometimes all three under the Disabled Facilities Grant for my local Authority as a sanctioned contractor. I dont feel at ease taking leave from my commitments now i have scheduled. I work alone so cant even send the lads in to cover for me.

    The stance is, we should only need you for one day, its only scheduled for 10 days, now it must be pretty serious behind the scenes for 10 days! and i feel i should do the right thing but was expecting a longer lead in time and i could just make a hole by not booking anything in.

    The job i have for that period has arranged additional care package for a very frail individual with permanent O2 requirements and probably a lot of other bits will have been scheduled behind the scenes to allow me into fit the adaptations.All this stuff has been arranged for months.


    Two years to get to this point is a poor do.I find the more i have to do with the police over the years the less i actually want to deal with them.

    As an example a few weeks ago on the M61 at 5am travelling to Stirling from leeds just past Rivington services i see a lad leaning on a bridge rail over a road on the hard shoulder,no vehicle. I ring it in now carriageways have boards with Motorway, Carriageway location in miles, in other words a specific and unique location, these are very frequent and should provide all information to help and rescue. On the phone Not a scooby do, after a few minutes of trying to convey firstly board no ( i am a bathroom fitter and i know ) then M61 West, bridge parapet immediately after Services i gave up. As i drove up Shap Traffic rings and they couldn't grasp the location of the numbered board. We are in a bad way, police are akin to a duck trying to swim upstream in a river just faster then the top speed of a duck.


    Just a mild rant really.
    Last edited by MCFastybloke; 23rd July 2021 at 07:10.

  2. #2
    Master reggie747's Avatar
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    Probably no consolation but I agree that the judiciary system doesn't appear to work correctly....

  3. #3
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  4. #4
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    You are only at the start of the farce.

    I went to court as a witness for a victim.

    The defence barrister constructed a pack of lies the judge bought it and the case was dismissed and the victim got no justice at all. I was fuming at the time, I challenged the defence barrister afterwards and he just said that how it goes sometimes…

  5. #5
    Grand Master number2's Avatar
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    Police underfunded, judiciary underfunded - if we want stuff that's "fit for purpose" we have to be prepared to pay for it via higher taxes,
    "Once is happenstance. Twice is coincidence. The third time it's enemy action."

  6. #6
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    About 10 years ago I got called as a witness after seeing a road rage attack. I ended up going to court but as the suspect didn’t fancy turning up they dropped the case!

  7. #7
    To get something to court requires the CPS to authorise charge, there may be numerous reasons why it should take so long and courts often have a heavy backlog due to Covid.

    It may be the police who you speak to or make the follow up calls but there is a large process behind that which most people don’t see.

  8. #8
    You are talking about Essex police.....................how long have you got?

    Video of Lorry backing into wall clearly time stamped and showing reg number, not enough evidence

    Someone reporting a break in in progress, no show saying not enough resources, while stopping a motorist 800 metres away.

    The list is endless, has to be the worst police force in the country.
    Last edited by adrianw; 23rd July 2021 at 09:43.

  9. #9
    Master steptoe's Avatar
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    Covid has caused huge delays in the court process.

    The person who you were speaking to on the phone is most likely a call operator, not a police officer. And they are often central and have no detailed local knowledge of the area you maybe calling from.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by MCFastybloke View Post
    The stance is, we should only need you for one day, its only scheduled for 10 days, now it must be pretty serious behind the scenes for 10 days!
    10 days is the standard suggested length of jury duty, presumably to cover most cases in under that timeframe, and then it can be extended beyond that if the case calls for it. So I wouldn't necessarily take the proposed length as suggestive of its seriousness (though it does sound like a pretty nasty case from what you describe).

    It's a really challenging situation for you, and I hope you can make it work out.

  11. #11
    Grand Master wileeeeeey's Avatar
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    Amazing that you can't just be a witness via Zoom on your phone or laptop. You'd think they're used to people appearing via video link by now.

  12. #12
    Grand Master Dave+63's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hughtrimble View Post
    10 days is the standard suggested length of jury duty, presumably to cover most cases in under that timeframe, and then it can be extended beyond that if the case calls for it. So I wouldn't necessarily take the proposed length as suggestive of its seriousness (though it does sound like a pretty nasty case from what you describe).

    It's a really challenging situation for you, and I hope you can make it work out.
    You have to make it if you are called. If not, you could be arrested and prosecuted.

    I know from experience never to report an incident to the police if you’re not directly involved.

    The old adage No good deed goes unpunished is particularly relevant to our judicial system.

  13. #13

    The Juducial System is broken

    Can a witness be called back once they’ve given their statement and been questioned?

    Thought witnesses were free to go after this and don’t have to stay until end of trial.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kingstepper View Post
    Can a witness be called back once they’ve given their statement and been questioned?

    Thought witnesses were free to go after this and don’t have to stay until end of trial.
    Yes, a witness can be re called to the box. As to being released from court, that is at the discretion of the Judge.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Montello View Post
    You are only at the start of the farce.

    I went to court as a witness for a victim.

    The defence barrister constructed a pack of lies the judge bought it and the case was dismissed and the victim got no justice at all. I was fuming at the time, I challenged the defence barrister afterwards and he just said that how it goes sometimes…
    I sat on the jury for a case & the prosecutor was basing his argument that the accused was at a christening as they sent them a card. I wanted to yell out that just because I send you an Xmas card doesn’t mean I spent Xmas with you, you utter cretin.

    Luckily the defence barrister was so far out of his league that she ran circles around him, she was also extremely hot, which was a nice mix.

    OP it’s a rubbish situation after so long & it really does screw work up. I was lucky at the time I was not self employed, but I was the data & insight person on the leadership team that needed to complete all our budget assessments for global. Basically meant for 2 weeks I was either in court or working in the evenings to catch up on the day job. Was a shattering 2 weeks.

    At least being a witness saves you from the scary reality that being judged by 12 of your peers as a cross section of community, I hope I never end up in a situation where people that can barely dress themselves decide my fate.

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Kingstepper View Post
    Can a witness be called back once they’ve given their statement and been questioned?

    Thought witnesses were free to go after this and don’t have to stay until end of trial.
    Usually the judge will say if you are released otherwise yes.

  17. #17
    Master Onelasttime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave+63 View Post
    You have to make it if you are called. If not, you could be arrested and prosecuted.

    And I bet it wouldn't take two years either. More like two days.

  18. #18
    Master spuds's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by number2 View Post
    Police underfunded, judiciary underfunded - if we want stuff that's "fit for purpose" we have to be prepared to pay for it via higher taxes,
    I sympathise with the OP but also totally agree with this.

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Onelasttime View Post
    And I bet it wouldn't take two years either. More like two days.
    Are you referring to non attendance in court? Usually a judge would make reasonable enquiries as to why you were not there (with the defence prosecution witness services etc…). If you are required in court on said day of course the court needs you there so steps would be taken to bring you to court, that would be the very last resort.

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by robert75 View Post
    Usually the judge will say if you are released otherwise yes.
    Says here https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/la...-as-a-witness/ you’re free to go after giving evidence.

  21. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Kingstepper View Post
    Says here https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/la...-as-a-witness/ you’re free to go after giving evidence.
    Is that not what I said? The judge will release you from your duty to give evidence.

    ***edit***

    Sorry just to clarify maybe it wasnt clear with my initial post, in usual circumstances you will give your evidence and just leave, a judge will usually say thank you and you will be advised by an usher. There may be circumstances where you may be asked for further questions in which case you will be informed so.

    Hope that makes a bit more sense?

    Courts are usually a difficult place to navigate for people who are not used to it, the ushers or witness services are the people best to speak to who will be able to advise you.
    Last edited by robert75; 23rd July 2021 at 17:49.

  22. #22
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    All i can hope for is someone important and integral to it all to get pinged and for it to be delayed to a time where i can schedule around it.

  23. #23
    Grand Master oldoakknives's Avatar
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    Since the police have had to become more like 'social workers' there seems to be less 'policing' going on. No real evidence for thinking this, just a feeling I get from the news and talking to people.
    “The more I learn about people, the more I like my dog.”

  24. #24
    Grand Master Dave+63's Avatar
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    My daughter was doing jury service; about three days in, she arrived and was told to go home fir the day as one of the barristers had gone to another case!
    One full day of everyone’s time because a barrister had double booked without any consequences for him.

  25. #25
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    I have a letter, in a format not supported with probably i presume some instruction and guidance, and im going to be right royally shafted for being a good samaritan,for travel its 25p a mile, i drive a 4.2 blown V8 and its 500 mile round trip!

  26. #26
    I had jury service and during the 11 days, only a few days were full days. Similar to Dave+63 where either the judge was busy or the judge, prosecution and defence had to discuss something and you then started mid day or left early afternoon etc.

    Many years ago I visited a pub and the football was on. A brawl commenced with tables, chairs and bottles flying. I had to abandon my coffee mid cup. The police arrived and whilst I gave a statement at the station, I declined to attend court. I saw no value as the planks fighting only hurt the other opposing planks.

    The saddest part, this was not a night out but 3.30pm on a Friday with school children and pensioners witnessing this spill out into the street as they wait for their bus home.

  27. #27
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    https://thesecretbarrister.com/
    The book of the same name is a sobering read, explaining why barristers sometimes don't appear, the CPS doesn't pursue cases etc. It seems justice is rare, unless you have means and determination.

  28. #28
    Grand Master number2's Avatar
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  29. #29
    Grand Master snowman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by spuds View Post
    I sympathise with the OP but also totally agree with this.
    Or we could just spend tax money more effectively, but we're in danger of straying into BP territory now.

    M

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  30. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by snowman View Post
    Or we could just spend tax money more effectively, but we're in danger of straying into BP territory now.

    M

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    As this is the G&D I'll go no further than to say we can either have the services we have, or pay what amounts to pennies more for...
    "Once is happenstance. Twice is coincidence. The third time it's enemy action."

  31. #31
    Master Harry Smith's Avatar
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    The Juducial System is broken

    I disagree. It works perfectly in providing huge amounts of money and position for barristers, criminal lawyers, judges et al

  32. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by steptoe View Post
    Covid has caused huge delays in the court process.

    The person who you were speaking to on the phone is most likely a call operator, not a police officer. And they are often central and have no detailed local knowledge of the area you maybe calling from.
    The systems they use know exactly where you are, where live and historic incidents are, where resources are and what their priorities/policy for response are. If they don’t respond it’s a deliberate choice made automatically or by the call handler.

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