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Thread: Aftermarket Motor Parts?

  1. #1
    Master
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    Aftermarket Motor Parts?

    I have a 22 year old, low mileage Rover, which has mainly original parts. The Rover group that I belong to is seeing an increase in sub-standard replacement spares (often labelled as OEM!). Some are positively dangerous with poor welds or missing lubricants ( ie assembled dry). The built in obsolescence is becoming more obvious. It seems to be driven by folks buying the cheapest part. When steering, brakes and suspension parts are failing so quickly, it is worrying. Are there other makes/brands with similar stories?

  2. #2
    Your post is a perfect example why my garage will no longer fit customers supplied parts. Our insurance company have told us to stop this practise because quite simply in the event of a failure we would not be covered. As a garage we have to be 100% certain where our parts come from, there needs to be invoices seen from a supplier to our supplier and then an invoice from our supplier to us.....in essence there needs to be a paper trail. This canít happen if a customer has purchased from elsewhere even if they supply an invoice. If a customer was to have a subsequent failure of a component no amount of disclaimers would dissolve us of the responsibility. There have been cases where this has happened and the judge has found in favour of the customer.
    Public liability, product liability all go out the window with customers supplied parts and 2nd hand parts.

    The quality is becoming quite worrying as it was only a few months ago a chap asked to fit a pair of supplied lamps to his RRS. They would normally cost around £800 each from a dealer.....yours from eBay for only £120 each new, terrible quality made of thin plastic, fixings all in the wrong places and weighed about half of the originals.

  3. #3
    I would only buy a brand that I have heard of, or can easily research them

  4. #4
    Grand Master Chris_in_the_UK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Franky Four Fingers View Post
    Your post is a perfect example why my garage will no longer fit customers supplied parts. Our insurance company have told us to stop this practise because quite simply in the event of a failure we would not be covered. As a garage we have to be 100% certain where our parts come from, there needs to be invoices seen from a supplier to our supplier and then an invoice from our supplier to us.....in essence there needs to be a paper trail. This canít happen if a customer has purchased from elsewhere even if they supply an invoice. If a customer was to have a subsequent failure of a component no amount of disclaimers would dissolve us of the responsibility. There have been cases where this has happened and the judge has found in favour of the customer.
    Public liability, product liability all go out the window with customers supplied parts and 2nd hand parts.

    The quality is becoming quite worrying as it was only a few months ago a chap asked to fit a pair of supplied lamps to his RRS. They would normally cost around £800 each from a dealer.....yours from eBay for only £120 each new, terrible quality made of thin plastic, fixings all in the wrong places and weighed about half of the originals.
    Sensible approach mate - local to me, tyre firms will generally only fit tyres they have supplied.
    When you look long into an abyss, the abyss looks long into you.........

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Franky Four Fingers View Post
    Your post is a perfect example why my garage will no longer fit customers supplied parts. Our insurance company have told us to stop this practise because quite simply in the event of a failure we would not be covered. As a garage we have to be 100% certain where our parts come from, there needs to be invoices seen from a supplier to our supplier and then an invoice from our supplier to us.....in essence there needs to be a paper trail.
    Just for clarity then, your garage will fit aftermarket parts as long as you have sourced them?

    R
    Ignorance breeds Fear. Fear breeds Hatred. Hatred breeds Ignorance. Break the chain.

  6. #6
    Master W124's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ralphy View Post
    Just for clarity then, your garage will fit aftermarket parts as long as you have sourced them?

    R
    Are you trying to make waves again ?

    Why wouldn't an independent workshop want to supply the client with OEM quality parts at a price which encourages repeat business.
    I have fitted ZF group parts for over 20 years - Sachs, Boge, Lemfoerder are all original suppliers to Mercedes, BMW and VAG.

    Likewise Mahle and Mann filters are the same quality as the Merc or BMW branded filters.

    If you buy cheap copy parts on eBay, they are likely made in China and you will be disappointed.
    Last edited by W124; 16th July 2021 at 21:04.

  7. #7
    Much older car, but what really killed the joy for me with my old Lotus Elan was the poor quality parts which had become the norm due to most owners wanting the cheapest rather than best. The only exception was racing parts as there are a couple of very good companies which made high quality parts for the racing cars. Lotus always used whatever they could get their hands on, but having brand new starter motors and distributors fail at regular intervals became quite a pain.

  8. #8
    Grand Master
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    In the classic car world poor quality parts is an unfortunate reality, you either accept that you’ll end up replacing stuff more frequently or you shouldn’t own one. Doesn’t make it right but that’s the reality. Being able to do your own work is a must IMO, at least you don’t get stung for labour when parts need replacing.

    As a general rule, anything made in China will be crap, they have no concept of quality. All smiles and Oriental grins when making promises but they rarely deliver what they’ve agreed to, even if one batch is correct there’s no guarantee the next one will be.
    Last edited by walkerwek1958; 16th July 2021 at 21:36.

  9. #9
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    OEM (Original Equipment Manufacturer)? Yeah. Right! It's a shame that years of research and development done by OEM (the real ones) has been ignored and lost due to "buy cheap and buy twice", or more times! I've seen sub assemblies that are literally held together with minute spot welds and that break apart when a load is applied and wheel bearings that fail on first use due to lack of lubricant or no case hardening! Don't get me started on electrical parts that are fire hazards!

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by ralphy View Post
    Just for clarity then, your garage will fit aftermarket parts as long as you have sourced them?

    R
    Yeh absolutely R


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  11. #11
    Master
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    Many Independant garages buy huge quantities of the stuff and have done for decades.

    I would estimate a good chunk of cars on the roads in the UK have some aftermarket parts. Especially batteries, wipers, oil filters, air filters, breaks and common service parts.

  12. #12
    Grand Master Chris_in_the_UK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by W124 View Post
    Are you trying to make waves again ?

    Why wouldn't an independent workshop want to supply the client with OEM quality parts at a price which encourages repeat business.
    I have fitted ZF group parts for over 20 years - Sachs, Boge, Lemfoerder are all original suppliers to Mercedes, BMW and VAG.

    Likewise Mahle and Mann filters are the same quality as the Merc or BMW branded filters.

    If you buy cheap copy parts on eBay, they are likely made in China and you will be disappointed.
    It was a request for clarification, nothing more.
    When you look long into an abyss, the abyss looks long into you.........

  13. #13
    Iím quite handy with the spannerís if I say so myself but also have a good friend with a large garage equipped with all the tools and a number of two post and four post ramps. When I come in the evening, Iím (unfortunately for him) let loose.

    Most recently I fitted new pads and discs to the rear of my Range Rover. Aftermarket Ferodo discs and pads were bought from a Range Rover specialist for £120 delivered. Fitted no problem and theyíve been fine for the few miles Iíve driven them.

    Websites like Euro now show a choice of parts ranging from cheap and pretty low rent (Eicher) to recognises brands which Iíd be happy to fit like Pagid and Brembo. All at prices to suit your taste and budget.

    Personally, Iíd stay away from EBay as you donít know what youíre getting.

    Itís understandable that garage will fit their own aftermarket parts but not customerís. If the aftermarket part sourced by the garage is wrong or breaks, itís on their head. If a customerís part is wrong, the car is stuck on the ramps for as long as it takes the customer to source another part. If the part fails, youíve then got the argument of who pays for the labour to fit the new part.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by xellos99 View Post
    Many Independant garages buy huge quantities of the stuff and have done for decades.

    I would estimate a good chunk of cars on the roads in the UK have some aftermarket parts. Especially batteries, wipers, oil filters, air filters, breaks and common service parts.
    Aftermarket isnít the problem, itís cheap copies that are flooding the country which pose the biggest risk


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  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by walkerwek1958 View Post
    In the classic car world poor quality parts is an unfortunate reality, you either accept that you’ll end up replacing stuff more frequently or you shouldn’t own one. Doesn’t make it right but that’s the reality. Being able to do your own work is a must IMO, at least you don’t get stung for labour when parts need replacing.

    As a general rule, anything made in China will be crap, they have no concept of quality. All smiles and Oriental grins when making promises but they rarely deliver what they’ve agreed to, even if one batch is correct there’s no guarantee the next one will be.
    This is one of the stumbling blocks of not being able to fit 2nd hand. Parts for Land Rovers are becoming increasingly difficult to source. Even models like TD5 Defenders and D2s we are finding parts are now obsolete.


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  16. #16
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    FFF I havenít quoted you for brevity but how do you manage obsolete parts that are only from owners clubs as remanufactured / new old stock / from a breaker?

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Franky Four Fingers View Post
    This is one of the stumbling blocks of not being able to fit 2nd hand. Parts for Land Rovers are becoming increasingly difficult to source. Even models like TD5 Defenders and D2s we are finding parts are now obsolete.


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    This is not a new problem. I worked for Massey Ferguson 1979-1982 in the European Parts Division and fake tractor parts were the bane of our lives. I sat on my first anti counterfeiting committee in 1980. The main problem is that those who buy the stuff buy it knowingly and just keep quiet about it to avoid detection.

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Morgan View Post
    FFF I havenít quoted you for brevity but how do you manage obsolete parts that are only from owners clubs as remanufactured / new old stock / from a breaker?
    Remanufactured / nos parts arenít a problem as long as we purchase them from a known supplier, by that I mean trying to stick to bricks and mortar establishments.
    Obviously you have to be sensible, we kind of reason that a sourced second hand door mirror casing doesnít have the same potential for damage as a 2nd hand suspension component.

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Franky Four Fingers View Post
    Yeh absolutely R


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    R
    Ignorance breeds Fear. Fear breeds Hatred. Hatred breeds Ignorance. Break the chain.

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by W124 View Post
    Are you trying to make waves again ?
    Whoosh.

    R
    Ignorance breeds Fear. Fear breeds Hatred. Hatred breeds Ignorance. Break the chain.

  21. #21
    Craftsman
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    I have found very few businesses happy to fit supplied parts even when bought from the same factors. They were very happy to fit the parts if they sourced them from the same factors and then added 20% or more.

    Sub standard parts are a problem but so are parts supplied at inflated prices.

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  22. #22
    Master W124's Avatar
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    Workshop profit margins are a blended model of hourly rate plus margin on parts.

    If I work on £40/hour plus 15% on regular service parts and 10% on higher cost special order parts, i would need to up the hourly rate to cover the lost margin on client sourced parts.

    The best mark up is on bulk oils, a 200ltr drum of Liquimoly allows 40% mark up vs retail.

    Why would I accept a customer supplying their own fluids ?

    The big issue is a client whinging that they can buy parts from ECP or GSF on special promotion for less than my buy price from a major motor factors.

    They have time to chase best prices from multiple suppliers, I don't.

    Also, since January '21, remanufactured parts that I import from Bosch Classic or Gilardoni in Italy have risen by 20%.

    This puts the price of a BMW or Moto Guzzi restoration up significantly, which I have to pass on in full.
    Last edited by W124; 17th July 2021 at 11:01.

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Franky Four Fingers View Post
    Remanufactured / nos parts arenít a problem as long as we purchase them from a known supplier, by that I mean trying to stick to bricks and mortar establishments.
    Obviously you have to be sensible, we kind of reason that a sourced second hand door mirror casing doesnít have the same potential for damage as a 2nd hand suspension component.
    Thanks for clarifying

    Quote Originally Posted by W124 View Post
    Workshop profit margins are a blended model of hourly rate plus margin on parts.

    If I work on £40/hour plus 15% on regular service parts and 10% on higher cost special order parts, i would need to up the hourly rate to cover the lost margin on client sourced parts.

    The best mark up is on bulk oils, a 200ltr drum of Liquimoly allows 40% mark up vs retail.

    Why would I accept a customer supplying their own fluids ?

    The big issue is a client whinging that they can buy parts from ECP or GSF on special promotion for less than my buy price from a major motor factors.

    They have time to chase best prices from multiple suppliers, I don't.
    Itís interesting that most folk accept that a bottle of wine and even the food in a restaurant will have a mark up as well as the preparation/service costs but many balk at garages charging a margin on parts.

    That said I can see a position where some punters are very particular over what parts are used on their cars, where some parts are known to be oem but with part numbers ground off

  24. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by W124 View Post
    Workshop profit margins are a blended model of hourly rate plus margin on parts.

    If I work on £40/hour plus 15% on regular service parts and 10% on higher cost special order parts, i would need to up the hourly rate to cover the lost margin on client sourced parts.

    The best mark up is on bulk oils, a 200ltr drum of Liquimoly allows 40% mark up vs retail.

    Why would I accept a customer supplying their own fluids ?

    The big issue is a client whinging that they can buy parts from ECP or GSF on special promotion for less than my buy price from a major motor factors.

    They have time to chase best prices from multiple suppliers, I don't.

    Also, since January '21, remanufactured parts that I import from Bosch Classic or Gilardoni in Italy have risen by 20%.

    This puts the price of a BMW or Moto Guzzi restoration up significantly, which I have to pass on in full.
    I know that a vast majority of garage business have parts profit built in to their forecasts however itís something we hardly considered when setting up ours.
    For us it was a simple fact of needing to sell XXX amount of hours in the workshop to make it a viable proposition, ultimately if you donít sell hours you wonít make any parts profit either. That wasnít the reason for our decision to stop doing this though as the risk to us personally and the business being unprotected in the event of a worse case scenario (fatality) simply isnít worth it. Most people fully understand but some don't, they have the choice to go elsewhere.

  25. #25
    This is a really fascinating discussion.

    I understand the side of the businesses which don't want to fit customer supplied parts more as I also run a small business and if I work on customer supplied materials I am accepting something of certain value which may or may not be of the quality I approve, but I am taking on the responsibility from the moment I accept it and any issues will come back to me. There has to be a chain of responsibility and if I am to stand behind my work I have to have the confidence that it came through the right channels.

    On the other hand though, I know of a number of car related business which view it differently. A body shop near me prefer to have the customer supply any parts as they don't want to be blamed for ill fitting panels, trim and so on. They say that if they buy a pattern panel which doesn't fit, it's their responsibility to make it fit, but can't charge for the extra work as the customer expectation is that they should be able to source better fitting parts. If a customer supplies a poorly fitting part then they charge for the hours required to fit it properly.

    I suppose it's horses for courses...

  26. #26
    Grand Master wileeeeeey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Morgan View Post
    Thanks for clarifying



    Itís interesting that most folk accept that a bottle of wine and even the food in a restaurant will have a mark up as well as the preparation/service costs but many balk at garages charging a margin on parts.

    That said I can see a position where some punters are very particular over what parts are used on their cars, where some parts are known to be oem but with part numbers ground off
    I was just about to say you wouldn't turn up to a restaurant with your own meat, would you?

    I don't blame garages for not fitting customer sourced unknown parts. The issue comes when the consumer feels like they're being bent over but the price of dodgy cheap parts online exaggerates this.

  27. #27
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    When I first learned of parts profit from the indi (reluctantly) I used for my LR I have to admit that I was somewhat cheesed off. Having sat down and thought about it I do understand that either the labour price is going to be higher, or they are going to have to make a bit on the parts for the job. I have since changed the indi I use, not because of this practice, but because the guy was going to do a job, then didn't because it was beyond his ability. He also wouldn't use parts I was happy were of OE quality but would use gen LR parts, probably because he made a bigger mark up on them. The guy I now use has the same parts profit policy and was quite open that he couldn't price parts the same as I could. I'm quite relaxed about this as I know enough about the car to recognise that a particular non LR product is fine for the job.
    The alternative is taking the car to a main dealer where they will use gen parts at huge expense and charge you three times the labour for things that don't need doing.

  28. #28
    Grand Master Dave+63's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Morgan View Post
    Thanks for clarifying



    Itís interesting that most folk accept that a bottle of wine and even the food in a restaurant will have a mark up as well as the preparation/service costs but many balk at garages charging a margin on parts.

    That said I can see a position where some punters are very particular over what parts are used on their cars, where some parts are known to be oem but with part numbers ground off
    It often a case of a little knowledge being a dangerous thing. The punter knows he can buy part X for £y from Halfords so thinks that you can buy it cheaper than they can so should charge the same £y. If not, they should be able to provide the parts and save money. A business making a profit is a bad thing in their eyes, not appreciating that every business needs to make a profit to survive.

    Fir some reason, the motor trade seem to suffer from this more than other industries.

    I can do most things that need doing on my car (diagnostics excepted) but Iíd rather just pay the money to have someone I trust do the job.

  29. #29
    In terms of non OEM parts, were you to have new discs and pads fitted at your local Formula 1 auto centre, would these parts be poor quality?

  30. #30
    Craftsman
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    I do find things like this quite interesting tbh. If I go to tesco to buy groceries I accept a markup without question the sell food drink etc. If I go to a restaurant I do not expect to pay the same as in tesco. If with my meal I buy a beer I see no reason to pay th £8 for a £5 bottle of perroni from the pub next door I find it excessive.

    I went to the vet for example and was charged £50 for the small bottle of medicine it is online for £18. This also I find excessive they are a vet they sell a service which they charge well for £45 for the 15 mins I was there. They are not a pharmacy. They exploit a need I have to overcharge me.

    I am happy to pay for a service if its £60 an hour for the thing charge it but garages for example are not a motor factors who make their living from the mark up I do not need another middle man to earn a living from it aswell.

    Just me not to worried about it but also not happy or confused by it.

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  31. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by UMBROSUS View Post
    I do find things like this quite interesting tbh. If I go to tesco to buy groceries I accept a markup without question the sell food drink etc. If I go to a restaurant I do not expect to pay the same as in tesco. If with my meal I buy a beer I see no reason to pay th £8 for a £5 bottle of perroni from the pub next door I find it excessive.

    I went to the vet for example and was charged £50 for the small bottle of medicine it is online for £18. This also I find excessive they are a vet they sell a service which they charge well for £45 for the 15 mins I was there. They are not a pharmacy. They exploit a need I have to overcharge me.

    I am happy to pay for a service if its £60 an hour for the thing charge it but garages for example are not a motor factors who make their living from the mark up I do not need another middle man to earn a living from it aswell.

    Just me not to worried about it but also not happy or confused by it.

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    Nearer to home, how many people here object to paying out for genuine OEM watch parts.

  32. #32
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    Not being an expert on these things I pretty much leave it up to the man doing the repair. In general I try to find someone sympathetic to what needs done.

    I would not buy an original part of ebay for example for stupid money I'd have to wait or source one elsewhere I guess.

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  33. #33
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    I would however overpay for a watch or anything else if I really fancied it or needed it though.....

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  34. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beanie View Post
    When I first learned of parts profit from the indi (reluctantly) I used for my LR I have to admit that I was somewhat cheesed off. Having sat down and thought about it I do understand that either the labour price is going to be higher, or they are going to have to make a bit on the parts for the job. I have since changed the indi I use, not because of this practice, but because the guy was going to do a job, then didn't because it was beyond his ability. He also wouldn't use parts I was happy were of OE quality but would use gen LR parts, probably because he made a bigger mark up on them. The guy I now use has the same parts profit policy and was quite open that he couldn't price parts the same as I could. I'm quite relaxed about this as I know enough about the car to recognise that a particular non LR product is fine for the job.
    The alternative is taking the car to a main dealer where they will use gen parts at huge expense and charge you three times the labour for things that don't need doing.
    Itís a simple fact that every garage makes a profit on parts. I certainly do. However, youíre spot on in that if I didnít, then the Labour rate would need to go up. However, I rarely charge the suggested retail price on parts. These can be mind boggling.

    As for using main dealer parts for a greater mark up, that is very rarely the case (service kits aside). I run a mile from main dealers as generally you pay through the nose and parts take an age to be delivered.

    - - - Updated - - -

    And like FFF, I will not forget a part unless Iíve supplied it.

  35. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by Mick P View Post
    Nearer to home, how many people here object to paying out for genuine OEM watch parts.
    Is that the same? People object to garages charging more for OEM parts (or oil etc) than they could buy cheaper elsewhere.

    Personally Iíd be happier if garages were more transparent, charged a realistic price for these, increasing labour costs if needs be.

  36. #36
    Grand Master
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    I think it's only reasonable to accept a small mark-up being charged on parts supplied, whether its a garage fixing a car, a watch repairer, or plumber. Parts donít order themselves, it takes time and effort to source stuff and in the case of obsolete parts that can involve much time spent on the internet or on the phone.

  37. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by adigra View Post
    This is a really fascinating discussion.
    On the other hand though, I know of a number of car related business which view it differently. A body shop near me prefer to have the customer supply any parts as they don't want to be blamed for ill fitting panels, trim and so on. They say that if they buy a pattern panel which doesn't fit, it's their responsibility to make it fit, but can't charge for the extra work as the customer expectation is that they should be able to source better fitting parts. If a customer supplies a poorly fitting part then they charge for the hours required to fit it properly...
    I guess in most cases the garage in question would likely get away with it with a fairly strong disclaimers on their invoice for which most people would accept. It figures that they supplied the part...why should the garage be held responsible right...it makes perfect sense.
    The reality of it of course is very different and if they did get that ďoneĒ person who pursued an issue it would likely cost the garage in the end.
    As trade pros we have to be certain that the parts we are fitting are of a certain quality, tbh I donít think a lot of techs could truly lay their hand on their heart and say that unless the issue with the part was smacking them in the face. In most cases itíll probably cost them financially but what happens if someone is killed or seriously injured. Product and public liability wonít be there to hold your hand which is very worrying

  38. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by Beanie View Post
    When I first learned of parts profit from the indi (reluctantly) I used for my LR I have to admit that I was somewhat cheesed off. Having sat down and thought about it I do understand that either the labour price is going to be higher, or they are going to have to make a bit on the parts for the job. I have since changed the indi I use, not because of this practice, but because the guy was going to do a job, then didn't because it was beyond his ability. He also wouldn't use parts I was happy were of OE quality but would use gen LR parts, probably because he made a bigger mark up on them. The guy I now use has the same parts profit policy and was quite open that he couldn't price parts the same as I could. I'm quite relaxed about this as I know enough about the car to recognise that a particular non LR product is fine for the job.
    The alternative is taking the car to a main dealer where they will use gen parts at huge expense and charge you three times the labour for things that don't need doing.
    The base level of discount from most LR dealers is pretty bad tbh however compared to VW theyíre basically giving it to you. I struggle to see how many VAg specialists make any money out of parts. Any increase of parts discount I receive through LR is based purely on my monthly spend and relationship I maintain with them

  39. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kingstepper View Post
    Is that the same? People object to garages charging more for OEM parts (or oil etc) than they could buy cheaper elsewhere.

    Personally Iíd be happier if garages were more transparent, charged a realistic price for these, increasing labour costs if needs be.
    The problem is that all car makers buy the identical product from the original maker on what is known as a two pier price.

    Take an oil filter as an example. The oil filters arrive at the factories production line on pallets with the minimum of packaging. These are bought on the just in time procedure and the items are bought, delivered to the factory, fitted on the production line and moved onto the dealers in a short period of time. The payments are quick and the profit margins are small for everyone.

    Move forward 10,000 miles when the car needs a replacement filter. The filter is packed in a smart looking box and has been lying around for a few months in the car makers central warehouse and then the dealers store it for several months before the customer pays for it after the service. This is where the original maker sells at a higher price and the dealer also makes a decent margin. It is this process that keeps the cars original selling price competitive. Without the Parts margin, the original filter makers would just not be able to survive.

    So if you or a small garage buys a non original part, the system is buggered.

    The car makers are now prevented by law from preventing spurious contractors from copying a part and selling it on at a knock down price.

    Of course when you have a new exhaust pipe fitted you can chose to buy either the original makers pipe or an equivalent from an unknown maker. What happens in reality is that a new and valuable car is fitted with original parts and as it gets older and less valuable, the more cost conscious owner maintains it on the cheap.

    The counterfeiting just adds another nail in the coffin because if you or a small garage buys from a factor, no one really knows where it comes from.

  40. #40
    Grand Master JasonM's Avatar
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    Feb 2010
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    What pisses people off is the blatant piss take in some situations though, I do understand the need for dealer margin, I really do, but I sourced a identical VW badged, identical part number stickered genuine VW Zenon headlight ballast controller from a specialist retailer for my CC for £65, the VAG main dealer was charging my VW Independant nearly £300 for exactly the same part. He was reluctant for me to supply the part but when he saw it he asked me to give him the contact details of the seller.
    I guess those shiny chrome and marble showrooms donít pay for themselves.
    Cheers..
    Jase

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