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Thread: How To Test Timekeeping

  1. #1
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    How To Test Timekeeping

    Hi,

    In December 2020 I bought a Stowa Flieger Classic 40 and until now have been very pleased with it. Initially, the accuracy really surprised me, it also seemed to be pretty spot on whenever I looked at it without me resetting the time in weeks/months. This was better than I could have imagined.

    But recently, I have noticed that it has been well out, like 5 minutes and this seems to be happening over days, maybe a week after resetting.

    It has the self-winding mechanism.

    What is the best way to test it myself, to determine whether I need to talk to Stowa.

    Cheers

  2. #2
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    The quickest way is with a timegrapher and this will also give other information about the "health" of the movement on the spot, so to speak...... but will cost £150ish for a basic one if you wanted to buy one yourself....
    https://vintagewatchinc.com/using-watch-timegrapher/

    Alternatively, set your watch to a known good time source (eg radio controlled, GPS or internet etc) and then check again a few hours later.
    https://time.is/London

    If it's losing or gaining time badly then you will start to see them move out of sync within a few hours. If the difference is only a few seconds a day then you'll have to wait, well, around 24 hours or more.
    Last edited by boywithabubblegun; 5th July 2021 at 10:00.

  3. #3
    Grand Master Sinnlover's Avatar
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    A simple phone app called Twixt works quite well
    It only displays basic information but it works

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sinnlover View Post
    A simple phone app called Twixt works quite well
    It only displays basic information but it works
    Could find that app at all, looked on Play Store and googled too, nothing. Is that how it is spelt?

    Cheers,

    Nigel

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by boywithabubblegun View Post
    The quickest way is with a timegrapher and this will also give other information about the "health" of the movement on the spot, so to speak...... but will cost £150ish for a basic one if you wanted to buy one yourself....
    https://vintagewatchinc.com/using-watch-timegrapher/

    Alternatively, set your watch to a known good time source (eg radio controlled, GPS or internet etc) and then check again a few hours later.
    https://time.is/London

    If it's losing or gaining time badly then you will start to see them move out of sync within a few hours. If the difference is only a few seconds a day then you'll have to wait, well, around 24 hours or more.
    I will try timing against a source. As it is a self-winder, does it make a difference whether it is being worn or sat on a desk.

    Cheers,

    Nigel

  6. #6
    Grand Master Sinnlover's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nheather View Post
    Could find that app at all, looked on Play Store and googled too, nothing. Is that how it is spelt?

    Cheers,

    Nigel
    Yes Twixt
    I have it on an iPhone so it might not be android compatible

  7. #7
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    My advice is to forget phone apps, I’ve had several cases where an owner thinks a watch is performing badly based on phone app information. Even a Timegrapher has to be interpreted with caution, on some heavy- cased watches it’s difficult to get a clean signal and that’ll confuse the unwary who will draw all manner of wrong inferences.

    The simple advice for the OP is the easiest and cheapest option. Firstly, ensure the watch is fully wound by hand- winding. Give it around 60 twists of the crown. Do this at the start of the day, note the time against a reliable source, then wear the watch for several hrs and check again. After approx 16 hrs wear (bedtime) take ut off and leave it dial- up overnight after noting the time again versus your reference source. Next morning check it again. Based on your readings you can now calculate the overall rate, the rate ‘on the wrist’ and the rate dial- up. Repeat the exercise over a few days and look for consistency, but don’t hand- wind it again, if all’s well with the auto- winding it should recharge sufficiently to keep running at high enough amplitude to maintain consistent timekeeping. However, if you're extremely sedate this won’t happen and the watch will eventually stop. If you write all the numbers down and do the calcs you’ll also see if there’s a trend developing over a few days.

    Keep it simple, none of this is rocket science. A timegrapher will only tell you what the rate and amplitude is at that moment so it’s not the panacea.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by walkerwek1958 View Post
    My advice is to forget phone apps, I’ve had several cases where an owner thinks a watch is performing badly based on phone app information. Even a Timegrapher has to be interpreted with caution, on some heavy- cased watches it’s difficult to get a clean signal and that’ll confuse the unwary who will draw all manner of wrong inferences.

    The simple advice for the OP is the easiest and cheapest option. Firstly, ensure the watch is fully wound by hand- winding. Give it around 60 twists of the crown. Do this at the start of the day, note the time against a reliable source, then wear the watch for several hrs and check again. After approx 16 hrs wear (bedtime) take ut off and leave it dial- up overnight after noting the time again versus your reference source. Next morning check it again. Based on your readings you can now calculate the overall rate, the rate ‘on the wrist’ and the rate dial- up. Repeat the exercise over a few days and look for consistency, but don’t hand- wind it again, if all’s well with the auto- winding it should recharge sufficiently to keep running at high enough amplitude to maintain consistent timekeeping. However, if you're extremely sedate this won’t happen and the watch will eventually stop. If you write all the numbers down and do the calcs you’ll also see if there’s a trend developing over a few days.

    Keep it simple, none of this is rocket science. A timegrapher will only tell you what the rate and amplitude is at that moment so it’s not the panacea.
    This is my first ‘proper’ watch so not much experience.

    First question - if a watch is self-winding can you wind it up manually, and if you can, does that apply to all mechanisms or just some.

    Second Question - my watch is 6 months old and has been working extremely well until the last few weeks where it seems to have started gaining a lot of time. I will follow your recommendations before taking any action, but interested to hear how watch manufacturers respond to this sort of thing. Stowa watches have a 2 year year warranty, my watch is only 6 months old, but the mechanism doesn’t have a certificate - are they likely to say this is just ‘normal’.

    I’ve had the watch running for 2 hours now - it has gained 3 secs, so at that rate 36 secs per day whereas previously it was holding good time for weeks.

    Cheers,

    Nigel
    Last edited by nheather; 5th July 2021 at 12:25.

  9. #9
    Grand Master Onelasttime's Avatar
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    Emerald Time app.

    Fully wind the watch (40 crown turns), set the time to Emerald Time, wear watch for 24 hours, check back with Emerald Time to see how many seconds behind or ahead the watch is. If more than 20 seconds then it should probably go back under warranty.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by nheather View Post
    This is my first ‘proper’ watch so not much experience.

    First question - if a watch is self-winding can you wind it up manually, and if you can, does that apply to all mechanisms or just some.

    Second Question - my watch is 6 months old and has been working extremely well until the last few weeks where it seems to have started gaining a lot of time. I will follow your recommendations before taking any action, but interested to hear how watch manufacturers respond to this sort of thing. Stowa watches have a 2 year year warranty, my watch is only 6 months old, but the mechanism doesn’t have a certificate - are they likely to say this is just ‘normal’.

    I’ve had the watch running for 2 hours now - it has gained 3 secs, so at that rate 36 secs per day whereas previously it was holding good time for weeks.

    Cheers,

    Nigel
    You can hand- wind the watch. Certain Seiko movements don’t gave a hand- wind facility but that’s an exception, an automatic watch can be hand- wound but owing to the design of the mainspring and barrel it will never achieve the fully- wound situation that a hand- wound does; on an automatic the mainspring slips inside the barrel when the spring is fully wound, thus enabling the crown to continue being turned. This confuses some folks but its very simple.

    If the watch is running in a very low state of wind the amplitude will be very low and the timekeeping will be way out, a watch has to be running with good amplitude (above 200 degrees) to have any hope of keeping good time. Mechanical watches are designed to run with high amplitude and that will only be achieved if the mainspring is 50% wound or more.

    There is the possibility that the watch has become magnetised, that will cause the watch to run fast and could explain a step change as you describe.

    Follow my previous advice, write down the numbers, and see what they tell you.You MUST get the watch running in a high state of wind, if its not the numbers will be meaningless. If the watch is indeed running fast it can be rectified and as its under guarantee it’ll have to be returned to the manufacturer. However, if it’s magnetised its an easy fix for a repairer to demagnetise it, that can be done without opening it up so its worth doing as a first step.

    If the watch has had a hard knock that could’ve caused it to change, owners rarely admit to this!
    Last edited by walkerwek1958; 5th July 2021 at 13:48.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by walkerwek1958 View Post
    You can hand- wind the watch. Certain Seiko movements don’t gave a hand- wind facility but that’s an exception, an automatic watch can be hand- wound but owing to the design of the mainspring and barrel it will never achieve the fully- wound situation that a hand- wound does; on an automatic the mainspring slips inside the barrel when the spring is fully wound, thus enabling the crown to continue being turned. This confuses some folks but its very simple.

    If the watch is running in a very low state of wind the amplitude will be very low and the timekeeping will be way out, a watch has to be running with good amplitude (above 200 degrees) to have any hope of keeping good time. Mechanical watches are designed to run with high amplitude and that will only be achieved if the mainspring is 50% wound or more.

    There is the possibility that the watch has become magnetised, that will cause the watch to run fast and could explain a step change as you describe.

    Follow my previous advice, write down the numbers, and see what they tell you.You MUST get the watch running in a high state of wind, if its not the numbers will be meaningless. If the watch is indeed running fast it can be rectified and as its under guarantee it’ll have to be returned to the manufacturer. However, if it’s magnetised its an easy fix for a repairer to demagnetise it, that can be done without opening it up so its worth doing as a first step.

    If the watch has had a hard knock that could’ve caused it to change, owners rarely admit to this!
    I tried turning the crown and it wouldn’t move. I was quite gentle, didn’t want to force it unduly.

    Does this mean that my can’t be hand-wound, that it is already fully wound, or that I didn’t have the guts to turn it hard enough.

    Cheers,

    Nigel

  12. #12
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    My Stowa Marine Classic has a manual wind mechanical movement. i.e. not automatic. The winding is slightly different to many watches as you wind the crown one way and then the opposite way. You feel resistance when fully wound. Not sure what movement the Stowa Flieger has though. Mine runs at +8 to plus 10 seconds per day.

    Sent from my SM-G780G using Tapatalk

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wolfman53 View Post
    My Stowa Marine Classic has a manual wind mechanical movement. i.e. not automatic. The winding is slightly different to many watches as you wind the crown one way and then the opposite way. You feel resistance when fully wound. Not sure what movement the Stowa Flieger has though. Mine runs at +8 to plus 10 seconds per day.

    Sent from my SM-G780G using Tapatalk
    My mechanism is an automatic. With the crown in the normally, fully-down position, turning it anti-clockwise there is nonresistance at all and trying to turn it clockwise meets with immediate resistance that I would not like to force.

    Does that mean it is fully wound already.

    It is definitely running fast. Now 3.5 hours into the test and it is already 4 seconds fast.

    Someone mentioned getting it demagnetised - is that reasonably priced and where would you get it done?

    I’m in Wets Sussex in Horsham - tongue in cheek, I’m assuming you don’t just take it into Hinds, but is this something that a better high-street jeweller would do or do I need to take it to a specialist repairer.

    I’m inclined to just let Stowa deal with it but that will mean sending it back to Germany I would imagine.

    Cheers,

    Nigel

  14. #14
    Journeyman the_gazelle's Avatar
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    Just to check, and don’t mean to be patronising here, but does it have a screw down crown? It might need winding the opposite direction first to undo it? It should spring up slightly once undone, to then allow winding.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by the_gazelle View Post
    Just to check, and don’t mean to be patronising here, but does it have a screw down crown? It might need winding the opposite direction first to undo it? It should spring up slightly once undone, to then allow winding.
    Don’t worry, no offence taken, sensible question.

    No it doesn’t have a screw down crown.

    Three positions

    Fully down - winding, assuming it can
    Mid position - set the time
    Fully out - set the date, though mine doesn’t have a date window

    Cheers,

    Nigel

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by nheather View Post
    My mechanism is an automatic. With the crown in the normally, fully-down position, turning it anti-clockwise there is nonresistance at all and trying to turn it clockwise meets with immediate resistance that I would not like to force.

    Does that mean it is fully wound already.

    It is definitely running fast. Now 3.5 hours into the test and it is already 4 seconds fast.

    Someone mentioned getting it demagnetised - is that reasonably priced and where would you get it done?

    I’m in Wets Sussex in Horsham - tongue in cheek, I’m assuming you don’t just take it into Hinds, but is this something that a better high-street jeweller would do or do I need to take it to a specialist repairer.

    I’m inclined to just let Stowa deal with it but that will mean sending it back to Germany I would imagine.

    Cheers,

    Nigel
    I would be contacting Stowa in the first instance. Especially with such a recently purchased watch.

    Sent from my SM-G780G using Tapatalk

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wolfman53 View Post
    I would be contacting Stowa in the first instance. Especially with such a recently purchased watch.

    Sent from my SM-G780G using Tapatalk
    Many thanks, yes I intend to, I just want to make sure that I’ve done some tests first so I can go to them with some hard data.

    Cheers,

    Nigel

  18. #18
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    Just tried the Lepsi app, hoping that it was just a case of magnetisation because I realised I have been placing my watch on my Kindle case while I sleep (to stop the noise of the mechanism) and that the case has a magnetic clap.

    Sadly, the Lepsi app is not detecting any magnetism in my watch. The app is working fine, if I magnetise a screwdriver it detects that no problem.

    That’s a shame. I will continue with the testing - it seems to be running fast by about 34 secs whereas previously it would have taken weeks to be that much out.

    Cheers,

    Nigel

  19. #19
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    I would be very concerned if I felt immediate resistance to turning the crown clockwise when it's fully pushed in. I speak as a Stowa Flieger owner, but regardless I wouldn't expect that to be the case with any automatic which doesn't have a screw-down crown.

    There are many on here with infinitely more knowledge of watch movements than me, but given what you've described I think I would be contacting Stowa.

    Ian

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ian_O View Post
    I would be very concerned if I felt immediate resistance to turning the crown clockwise when it's fully pushed in. I speak as a Stowa Flieger owner, but regardless I wouldn't expect that to be the case with any automatic which doesn't have a screw-down crown.

    There are many on here with infinitely more knowledge of watch movements than me, but given what you've described I think I would be contacting Stowa.

    Ian
    Thanks for the advice - think that would be best - something is not right with it.

    It is now running very fast and it doesn’t feel like it can hand wind.

    What does hand winding feel like - I have to think back to my childhood and then you only had to turn gently and you got a clicking as you did so.

    Cheers,

    Nigel

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by nheather View Post
    Thanks for the advice - think that would be best - something is not right with it.

    It is now running very fast and it doesn’t feel like it can hand wind.

    What does hand winding feel like - I have to think back to my childhood and then you only had to turn gently and you got a clicking as you did so.

    Cheers,

    Nigel
    Hand-winding should normally not need a lot of force when you twist the crown to wind. If you have a local watch dealer perhaps take it in to them for a look? It does sound you have a mechanical issue and as it’s only 6months old - not least you should be covered under UK consumer law to get it fixed or replaced.

    Good luck and hope you get it fixed to your satisfaction.
    “ Ford... you're turning into a penguin. Stop it.” HHGTTG

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by MartynJC (UK) View Post
    Hand-winding should normally not need a lot of force when you twist the crown to wind. If you have a local watch dealer perhaps take it in to them for a look? It does sound you have a mechanical issue and as it’s only 6months old - not least you should be covered under UK consumer law to get it fixed or replaced.

    Good luck and hope you get it fixed to your satisfaction.
    It has a 2 year warranty with Stowa so shouldn’t be a problem. Just a shame that shipping to Germany will cost around £60.

    Cheers,

    Nigel

  23. #23
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    Lepsi app= total waste of time!

    I think your best bet is to send this watch back to Stowa or find someone locally to check it first. I could check it but you would need to post it to me and pay return postage.

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by walkerwek1958 View Post
    Lepsi app= total waste of time!

    I think your best bet is to send this watch back to Stowa or find someone locally to check it first. I could check it but you would need to post it to me and pay return postage.
    Thanks for your very kind offer, but the insurance value seems to be the dictating price for shipping which means the cost of sending to Wakefield and back may be more than sending to Germany.

    Why do you say that the Lepsi app is a waste of time. Are you saying that it could say that my watch is actually magnetised when the Lepsi app is saying it isn’t.

    The app appears to work for me. I set it up, tested with a magnet and got an instant response. Then with my watch and it said it wasn’t magnetised. Then with a pair of pliers and it said they weren’t magnetised. I then stroked the pliers a few times with a magnet and tried them again and this time the app said they were magnetised. That convinced me that the app appears to work .

    But you now making me question whether my watch could be magnetised but the Lepsi app is failing to report that.

    Cheers,

    Nigel
    Last edited by nheather; 7th July 2021 at 07:59.

  25. #25
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    You don’t understand what happens when a watch gets magnetised.

    After being subjected to a magnetic field some of the movement parts become permanently magnetised to a small extent. If the hairspring is affected the coils will be slightly attracted to each other and this will cause the frequency of oscillation (and the rate of the watch) to be affected. The case itself doesn’t become magnetised and that’s why trying to assess whether a watch us affected by magnetism using a compass needle (or phone) is a waste of time. If the effect of magnetism was due to the case being magnetised then the watch movement would run OK when removed from the case, trust me this doesn’t happen!

    Demagnetising is quick and easy to do using a cheap demagnetiser, mine cost about £35 and it takes seconds to do the job.

    Based on your comments I’m struggling to understand what might be wrong with the hand- winding of the watch, when the crown is turned there will be some resistance to movement but it shouldn’t feel tight. These movements can sometimes suffer from the reversers sticking, tge watch won’t auto- wind properly and the hand- winding becomes very stiff. In this condition its possible to break teeth off the ratchet wheel by determined attempts to wind even though it clearly feels wrong, I’ve had a few of these to fix.

    Assuming the watch is valued at under £2500 it can be posted using RMSD in the UK for around £10.50, I send watch out regularly this way. Posting overseas is more of a problem and its something I won’t do thesedays.

  26. #26
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    Many thanks for your advice - you are quite right, all this is very new to me - it is definitely running fast. With the winding it could simply be that as I don’t know what to expect I am being too cautious.

    I’ll send you a PM

    Quote Originally Posted by walkerwek1958 View Post
    You don’t understand what happens when a watch gets magnetised.

    After being subjected to a magnetic field some of the movement parts become permanently magnetised to a small extent. If the hairspring is affected the coils will be slightly attracted to each other and this will cause the frequency of oscillation (and the rate of the watch) to be affected. The case itself doesn’t become magnetised and that’s why trying to assess whether a watch us affected by magnetism using a compass needle (or phone) is a waste of time. If the effect of magnetism was due to the case being magnetised then the watch movement would run OK when removed from the case, trust me this doesn’t happen!

    Demagnetising is quick and easy to do using a cheap demagnetiser, mine cost about £35 and it takes seconds to do the job.

    Based on your comments I’m struggling to understand what might be wrong with the hand- winding of the watch, when the crown is turned there will be some resistance to movement but it shouldn’t feel tight. These movements can sometimes suffer from the reversers sticking, tge watch won’t auto- wind properly and the hand- winding becomes very stiff. In this condition its possible to break teeth off the ratchet wheel by determined attempts to wind even though it clearly feels wrong, I’ve had a few of these to fix.

    Assuming the watch is valued at under £2500 it can be posted using RMSD in the UK for around £10.50, I send watch out regularly this way. Posting overseas is more of a problem and its something I won’t do thesedays.

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