Reply With QuoteBest watch this space: https://disciplinary.uefa.com/discip...dies/meetings/Originally Posted by BillyCasper
Understood, but in this "soft touch" modern game, where the letter of the law is followed, it's a key factor. I'm not talking about diving without any contact whatsoever - that's cheating and should be punished in the most severe ways - I just mean over-egging the challenge. Once upon a time a ref would have laughed at some of these theatrics and told them to get their arse up and back in the game. These days a raised arm, a late foot, a toe off-side and it's advantage played and cards out.
Jack Grealish. Talented player, fast and accurate, but the most important string to his bow is the ability to draw a foul. Most fouled played in the Premier League 2 years running. Valued at £100,000,000. Enough said.
Sterlings foul might or might not have been a penalty last night, but there was definitely contact (not at his feet - looked like his calf or his thigh depending which angle you view). The ref was yards away, clear view, called a penalty without even needing his other officials. Contact in the box, what else can you do?
Last edited by kevkojak; 8th July 2021 at 12:22.
Best watch this space: https://disciplinary.uefa.com/discip...dies/meetings/
I would agree with all of those sentiments. By the way I am a qualified referee, though have not officiated over the last year I will go back to it, and I can't stand it one bit. I have cautioned a number of players for unsporting behaviour. This kind of thing is getting more popular at the grass roots level.
A better system of video analysis at the top level would stamp it out. Where action isn't taken at the time I'm in favour of a panel who can take retrospective action so players face bans for being found guilty. Action and leadership is needed from the likes of FIFA and UEFA - but this needs to be a global initiative. But good luck with that, and actually I believe the challenge would be more of one outside the Premier League where much of this is just cultural in the game.
There's at best a 50% chance of that in the final with Italy on the pitch.
Also, if you can't handle defeat then you're best off sulking in private. Public bleating is a pathetic sight.
F.T.F.A.
I see what you are saying, and there will definitely be plenty of ignorance of the reasons behind the gesture amongst people booing it. But I also believe that if the players were to strike say the usain bolt pose instead, most of these people would still be booing - how would we excuse it then?
We hear a lot from the pundits about "contact". And it's a mistaken belief that contact equals a Direct Free Kick. It needs to be "in a manner considered by the referee to be careless, reckless or using excessive force". It would seem that some Referees are interpreting careless to mean the slightest, lightest touch. But the Law also says "impedes an opponent with contact", which is what we saw last night, and throughout the competition, where players milk the slightest contact and crash to the ground.
They're good enough to win without doing things like that.
"Also, if you can't handle defeat then you're best off sulking in private. Public bleating is a pathetic sight." - Who do you mean?
Not a big football fan, but that is an utter disgrace. As for hearing whatever his same is has been applauded as the most fouled person in the premiership, that’s not playing the game they are meant to be IMHO.
Somebody has beaten me to it I see but essentially, it doesn't matter what Southgate says in this particular instance. The stance has become indelibly linked to a movement. You cannot re-purpose a gesture just because you wish for others to interpret it in a different context and as I say, there are people of all ethnicities protesting the gesture.
And that is where you are wrong.
Nah, Grealish is the kid who turns up to your Sunday League match in pink boots and starts showboating... first opportunity he gets, your ugly great centre back is going straight through him.
His importance is that he's not afraid to run at people, quick feet... the fact that every defence in the league has had to foul him to stop him isn't exactly his fault.
An Italian player did make the right handed salute and said it was a “Roman salute”
And how do you know? You don’t.
And tbh we probably never will, can’t see them changing it now, altho I think it would be a very interesting experiment if they did
That was DiCanio, who also had “DUX” tatooed on his arm. Well known fascist, many time suspended for this.
After the laser in Schmeichel‘s eyes, the booing of the Danish anthem, the fireworks, and Sterling’s dive , would say it is a classic case of the pot calling the kettle black.
These things do happen in football, in all countries. I just wish a great game next Sunday, which I could remember even if England wins.
Buona fortuna !
I wasn't suggesting that at all of course.
Just that for me the "golden era" of the 1970s / early 80s is tarnished by appaulling tradegy. Of course they didn't have modern technology available but the lax attitude to safety still cost many lives.
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Booing National anthems is something I really wouldn’t get worked up about
I’m sure Scotland boo GSTQ in both football and rugby-it’s of no significance IMO
The way the Italians belt out their National anthem I think booing it would only make them more intense-if that was indeed possible.
Booing of any national anthem is boorish and disrespectful. At home it's ingracious, abroad it's arrogant.
As a side note, I do wish the English rugby and football teams would pick a different anthem. GSTQ, is the UK national anthem after all, even if it is an awful, ponderous dirge, and being an atheist republican, I agree with none of it's sentiments. There's plenty to choose from.
I agree booing it is boorish
Almost as boorish as actually singing GSTQ
I just wouldn’t lose sleep over it.
Excellent.
An august body that isn't in the least bit corupt. Not a bit. Never.
I truly hope that England prevail this Sunday night. I would certainly prefer us to not have penalties (at any time in the game) decide the championship as my heart won't take it!!
I'd love a clean, fast paced and enjoyable game that we all enjoy and remember for all right reasons. And, if we lose to Italy, I can live with that as they are "probably" the best overall team in this championship but dearly hope our team do us all proud, lose or win.
And should England win, the knock on effect of joy and positivity for our nation will be a delight to see, enjoy and live through - and especially so given the crazy times we have all had to endure since March 2020.
Enjoy.
Because I speak to proper football fans on a daily basis of all sections of society - young, old, hardened, cycnical. I'm a home and away season ticket holder of a premier league club for over twenty years and have followed them all over the UK and Europe, indeed not missing a single one of their league games for over seven years. No doubt there sadly are racists in our society and amongst our football-supporting community but believe me, the UK is a paragon of virtue compared to many European countries I've visited and racist behaviour is frowned upon by the very vast majority of fans, as you would hope. Someone recently commented in this thread about UEFA getting after England for several reasons including the booing of the knee-taking. If only they would follow through against truly racist behaviour in other countries so vociferously instead of pursuing the soft targets in order to simply fine football associations and add to their coffers.
Back to the subject, I've spoken to fans of my club and others who have said they wish to take a stance against the taking of the knee and I have yet to meet someone that has stated anything outside of the narrative I have conveyed thus far. I would imagine that any racist that goes to football will have joined in with the booing and they (a very small number of people) would possibly wish to continue to do so even if the gesture were changed but, I cannot imagine their lives will made very comfortable by those around them and yes, I have seen crowds turn on racists but thankfully, it hasn't been necessitated very often.
BSB as you say we are light years ahead of many places. But I reckon you are unlikely to meet anyone that would openly admit to having a more sinister motive for the booing, and just feel the political angle can be a handy way to brush it off when challenged. I genuinely do hope you are right tho.
Back to the football, we definitely got away with one last night. Don’t know how anyone can say it was a penalty and keep a straight face. Sterling should be feeling pretty sheepish today - hopefully he absolutely rips it up in the final to make up for it, or we will never hear the end of it
I’m pleased that England won and overall I think they deserved the win. The penalty was a soft one to say the least and I’d feel happier if England had won by a clearcut goal from open play that was beyond dispute.
If the penalty hadn’t been given, I think England would’ve scored eventually, they were totally dominating play and Denmark were starting to look very ragged.
I was disappointed with the second period of extra time when England sat back to defend the lead, that just invites trouble and can easily backfire. This gave Denmark more hope of equalising than if England had kept Grealish on and continued to apply pressure, most of the Denmark side looked spent and I doubt whether they had it in them to score on the break. Had England conceded a goal Southgate’s tactics during this final chapter would've been heavily criticised, Denmark had at least two corners and could easily have scored.
I hope England can beat Italy, they’ll be a tough nut to crack. Hard not to admire Italy’s track record over the years but I still dislike them, I would rather have lost to Denmark than lose to the bloody Italians.
Well we won which was great and on the balance of play deserved to, Schmeichel the best player on the pitch, Pickford....well.. wasn't. Dodgy penalty, lame effort, lucky to get the re-bound, but hard for anyone to make a case that England weren't the better team on the day.
Whilst England look pretty solid defensively, I'm not confident they won't concede and just can't see a win on penalties. So may well have to score twice to get the job done and that feels like relying on set pieces, Kane and Sterling are often found playing a long way apart and like others have said I want Kane to be the one in the box looking to use a bit of height and muscle to get to crosses, too often there were no options in the box and he was the crosser. More promise from Saka and harsh on Sancho - it's tricky to pass your way through a full press and Denmark showed how to close the defence / keeper down effectively and spook Pickford. Having players that can take on the opposition too opens up options, I'd give Grealish a start and try to get a few Italians on a yellow card early rather than use him as super-sub. Not going to be easy to break the Italians down and didn't see enough last night to be more confident of doing so, after the good win over Germany.
Booing the national anthem is classless and the laser debacle pure idiocy. Football still has a lot to learn from Rugby, no arguing with officials, no diving to the ground feigning injury, good honest physical games generally played in the right spirit - and rarely ever any crowd issues. Sorry Denmark, that's not how I want your visit to the UK to be remembered and great effort in the tournament, goes to show how team spirit and application goes a long way.
Interesting how much controversy there is over the penalty. Given that the referee gave it, var confirmed no serious error and Peter Walton said he felt it was a penalty, I don't see the argument against.
I think too many are focusing on the initial contact, and not the second incident. It's far from a horror tackle nowhere near the ball, but there's enough there for it to be a penalty.
I've yet to see a definitive angle of the penalty that shows whether Raheem was touched by the defender or not. If it was a slight touch as it initially looked then he made a meal of it but the defender put his leg in and missed the ball so was asking for trouble.
I'd be interested to see the incident from more angles if anyone has a link?
I think the acid test is most of us would feel pretty unhappy if it was given against us, based on the angles seen so far. If I was on a jury asked to convict someone on the basis that they had made contact with Raheem I'd be pretty hard pushed. But maybe the linesman or referee had a better view, ultimately VAR only overturns if there is a clear error, so IF either the linesman or referee are adamant they saw clear contact, hard for VAR to overturn unless they have every angled covered so can be definitive there was a mistake
Again something football can learn from rugby, have a public dialogue between the ref and VAR so we all know how the process has run through
I don't think that's what it was given for. It's the hip check by the second defender.
There was definitely contact with the second defender, I’m not sure about the first.
Yes. It's very disingenuous to pretend that there isn't an indelible association with this awful kneeling gesture and the unsavoury politics of the BLM movement, with all its police-defunding, statue-toppling, capitalism-dismantling nonsense. I would loudly and proudly boo all that with righteous moral pride, despite somehow never having owned an England flag in my life. I'm glad to see people exercising a right to peaceful, principled protest.
A contributor to a Times Radio show a few weeks ago made the point that one of the purposes of the kneeling gesture is to denigrate white society as racist, and I think there's something in that as well. It can be interpreted as a racist gesture in itself and that's very regrettable. There must be no room for racism in sport.
The obvious point here is that we wouldn't behaving this conversation about Kick It Out or any of the non-political initiatives to combat racism in sport. I can't remember any of these initiatives ever being booed by a crowd. Football has consciously courted controversy and it is reaping its due reward.
There is a good angle on Twitter. Kevin Doyle who was a premier league footballer talks it through. It shows Raheem getting touched by the first defender who got his knee / thigh. The second defender barged him with his hip. When moving at speed and weaving that was what put him down. Referee, VAR and even Peter Walton all thought it was a penalty. I can’t help thinking that if this was any other player there would be less fuss. Some of the stuff today again about Raheem in the media has been shameful. The lad has been absolutely brilliant throughout the tournament but I always have a feeling that people are waiting to criticise him. He plays for my club and I for one am proud of him.
Which is like saying singing God Save the Queen at a football match means that you automatically support booing of other countries anthems and shining lazers in goalkeepers faces.
I am neither for nor against taking the knee but if you choose to deliberately misinterpret a gesture to fit your own political views that's up to you.
Last edited by watchcollector1; 8th July 2021 at 19:04.
It’s a bit too ‘in your face’ for some people isn’t it? Have any of the other initiatives worked?
Your final paragraph is really why all the taking of the knee has become so important to many sportsmen and women, if organisations like kick it out etc had actually made any real difference they wouldnt be taking the knee in the first place.
Fun fact taking the knee started with an American footballer not the BLM movement
He should maybe ask his non-white friends what they think, after all it’s their opinion that matters the most when it comes to reasons why you would/wouldn’t want to do it.
If I was in a team they (black teammates) are the first people I would ask for an opinion on the matter.
Wouldn’t give a toss what the media/commentators/club owners/fans thought.
Thanks just what I was looking for! Looks pretty clear contact to me, the first defender clips Sterling's knee putting him off balance and the 2nd defender knocks him further off balance by sticking out his hip into his path.
Here it is:
https://twitter.com/KevinDoyle1983/s...064010752?s=19
Slightly off topic ref the competition though seeing as Sterling's name is being mentioned I thought I'd post this link - https://www.theplayerstribune.com/ar...as-all-a-dream
I dont know if these are accurate and untouched photos.
you should respect everyones national anthem.
Laser in the eyes despically wrong.
Taking the knee a political gesture not suited to sport,I hate it.
Diving/cheating just not the English way (or it wasnt),I would rather play magnificent attractive football and lose than cheat and win.
Saying that I am very glad we won,every other country should remember we gave them this game amongst many other great things.
What rose tinted era was that in?
It's the same in the video link I posted. Jensen isn't even going for the ball, he deliberately knocks into Sterling with his hip to check his run.I dont know if these are accurate and untouched photos.
you should respect everyones national anthem.
Laser in the eyes despically wrong.
Taking the knee a political gesture not suited to sport,I hate it.
Diving/cheating just not the English way (or it wasnt),I would rather play magnificent attractive football and lose than cheat and win.
Saying that I am very glad we won,every other country should remember we gave them this game amongst many other great things.
I honestly don't know how Denmark can get so high and mighty about the penalty having seen this angle. Sterling was running rings around them in the box, 2 defenders make errors and knock Sterling without getting the ball and the 2nd knock is blatant and deliberate.
This.
As a defender if you decide to not play the ball and body check a player in the box (a player who has the ball under control and heading goal direction), you run a very high risk of conceding a penalty.
Sometimes fouls like this are punished with a penalty, sometimes not, that's the gamble a defender takes when choosing to commit a foul in the area.
And that is exactly why Jensen's deliberate body check was more on the "cute" side of a foul rather than a blatant foul.
Anybody who has played the game knows this, anybody who thinks differently either doesn't understand football or is naive.
Sterling didn't dive and he didn't cheat, he was fouled.
On the flip side, Jensen clearly did cheat by body checking his opponent.
The ref gave it, VAR didn't dispute it.
On the second “knock” Sterling is already on the way down, so the hip is irrelevant. The dive is already in action. He himself said that he felt the defender stick his leg out and then he went down. Of course even the tiniest bit of contact CAN be called, but should it? In a European semifinal? If it was the other way around, it would have been a never ending story about the brave English men being cheated by the diver. The fact that you are still defending it days later is proof that it’s a blatant mistake by a young ref. Congrats on the dive. It’s a good modern football play by Sterling.
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How do you reach that conclusion?
On the flip side, it could equally be said that you continuing to protest it is proof that you are wrong.
How do I reach it? Eating extremely sour grapes for a few days will lead you there. Our old coach from ‘92 used to say about defeats: “Bitter. That’s something you drink”. Not me. Going out like this is absolutely brutal, and it’ll take a while. So as long as this thread is running, I’ll probably vent.
Lots of things to be sour about, mind you. Booing the anthem, laser pointing, two balls on the pitch, Danish fans and children being spit on and being told to "**** back where they came from", AND going out on a VERY controversial call. It all adds up. Again, the idiot England fans are a very small minority, fortunately.
Last edited by JeppeRober; 9th July 2021 at 07:45.
Enough now. Losing with dignity is a commendable trait - this incessant whining about being robbed certainly isn't.
Had Denmark shown any desire to win during the last hour of the match it would be different. However, they didn't and by far the better team won the day.
That is the referees job to decide on whether a foul was committed and by whom. He did as did VAR. A penalty was awarded.
If it makes you feel better blame the ref for a harsh a decision, blame the defenders for poor quality defending. But no, you choose to blame Sterling for diving.
+1
It was as it was. Not the first and not the last debatable football game. It's part of the game, get over it.
(Says the German who can be easily triggered to start an argument about the 1966 world cup final.)
Someone who lies about the little things will lie about the big things too.
Again, the grapes are extremely sour here right now. England haven't stopped complaining about bad luck in football since the beginning of time, and I suspect they'll continue no matter the final.
I am amazed, frankly.
Was it a penalty?
Yes, because that's what the ref called it. End of.
Could RS have stayed up? Most likely yes. But why should he? He's aiming for the win, not for a citation for valour.
If referees stopped giving "soft" penalties, the game would harden and the risk of injuries to players increase. So it's a deliberate choice.
The players know it; they are (highly paid) professionals, and are responsible for their actions.
Now I would like to have access to the parallel universe where the shirts are switched and the penalty given to Denmark: this thread's contributors would be incensed
If only for that reason, you should definitely celebrate the victory and turn your gaze towards Sunday's game rather than trying to rewrite history one way or another.
'Against stupidity, the gods themselves struggle in vain' - Schiller.
Can't disagree with any of that, spot on.I am amazed, frankly.
Was it a penalty?
Yes, because that's what the ref called it. End of.
Could RS have stayed up? Most likely yes. But why should he? He's aiming for the win, not for a citation for valour.
If referees stopped giving "soft" penalties, the game would harden and the risk of injuries to players increase. So it's a deliberate choice.
The players know it; they are (highly paid) professionals, and are responsible for their actions.
Now I would like to have access to the parallel universe where the shirts are switched and the penalty given to Denmark: this thread's contributors would be incensed
If only for that reason, you should definitely celebrate the victory and turn your gaze towards Sunday's game rather than trying to rewrite history one way or another.
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