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Thread: The Euros 2020

  1. #1001
    Grand Master wileeeeeey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Danstone View Post
    The whole booing of the taking the knee seemed to start at Millwall and the justification given was that it was a protest by politically aware fans against the political aims of the BLM movement. A few years ago, less than five, I was “entertained” at the Den, the opposition had a couple of black players that were subjected to monkey noises and other racist abuse by a clear majority of fans in the stadium. Afterwards I asked the person who took me what he thought of it and how he thought his own teams black players would feel and his response was “they’re ok, they’re still f***ing monkeys but they’re our f***ing monkeys.” The idea that the fans of that particular club are political intellectuals is a joke, they are racist thugs pure and simple.
    I laughed when I read "started at Millwall" and then told myself to keep and open mind. Then I read the monkey comments. Sumbags.

    The whole tying booing the knee to BLM and politics sounds incredibly similar to the people who are openly racist against brown people and then brag that "Islam isn't a race". They love a technicality but we all know what they really mean. Bit like Ally using the term Londonistan.

    I had neighbours once who were very proud to tell us the first time they met me and my wife that they weren't racist (think they were playing it safe as we both have weird names) and then spent the next 3 years at Christmas constantly asking if we were having a tree or not. They also spent years inviting us over for meat based dinners or just some alcohol, never a cup or tea or a biscuit. Curious. They could have just come out and asked what we were but spent their time hiding behind nonsense and playing games, just like these football fans.

    I'll let you guess what their views were on Meghan Markle, Brexit, and Jewish conspiracies.

  2. #1002
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    Quote Originally Posted by Danstone View Post
    In a slight defence of Ryan I think that the idea that it is only a small minority of society, and particularly football fans, that is racist is quite wide of the mark. It might be a minority but it’s a minority of millions. Even the media seems to be quoting a figure of 1,900 odd racist social media posts after the final directed at the players but, as I think I said before, I was watching them pile up with my daughter after the game and Saka had at least 30k in the first half an hour alone, maybe the people counting were only looking for certain words and not emojis.
    The whole booing of the taking the knee seemed to start at Millwall and the justification given was that it was a protest by politically aware fans against the political aims of the BLM movement. A few years ago, less than five, I was “entertained” at the Den, the opposition had a couple of black players that were subjected to monkey noises and other racist abuse by a clear majority of fans in the stadium. Afterwards I asked the person who took me what he thought of it and how he thought his own teams black players would feel and his response was “they’re ok, they’re still f***ing monkeys but they’re our f***ing monkeys.” The idea that the fans of that particular club are political intellectuals is a joke, they are racist thugs pure and simple.
    I think that the actual number of people in society that are openly racist may be a significant minority, but when you add in those that go along with it, laugh about it, share the racist memes or don’t see it as a problem and act on it you probably then reach a majority.
    I had a season ticket at the den for ten years in the 00’s, and found racist abuse to be infrequent and often challenged when used. That said I was at the half way line not in the coldblow lane end.

  3. #1003
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    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Morgan View Post
    I had a season ticket at the den for ten years in the 00’s, and found racist abuse to be infrequent and often challenged when used. That said I was at the half way line not in the coldblow lane end.
    They weren’t racist at Milwall, they hated everyone equally!

  4. #1004
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave+63 View Post
    They weren’t racist at Milwall, they hated everyone equally!
    As is often said at the den “No one likes us, we don’t care…”

  5. #1005
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave+63 View Post
    They weren’t racist at Milwall, they hated everyone equally!
    When Millwall came to Spurs back in the 70s/80s, they were escorted en masse from the station and the High Road leading to the stadium was literally lined on both sides with cordons of police.

    Those were the days (not).

  6. #1006
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    Today we have the challenge cup final between Castleford and St Helens. It is a popular, working men sport just like football. And the players are not exactly typical choir boys. The rivalry between the two is probably fairly close to that existing between Man U and Liverpool, or Arsenal and Tottenham.
    The players will take no prisoners but are unlikely to swarm the ref. And the fans will probably behave a lot better than what we saw 2 weeks ago. Now I realise that such a prediction may come back to bite me but why the difference with football?
    'Against stupidity, the gods themselves struggle in vain' - Schiller.

  7. #1007
    Quote Originally Posted by Danstone View Post
    In a slight defence of Ryan I think that the idea that it is only a small minority of society, and particularly football fans, that is racist is quite wide of the mark. It might be a minority but it’s a minority of millions. Even the media seems to be quoting a figure of 1,900 odd racist social media posts after the final directed at the players but, as I think I said before, I was watching them pile up with my daughter after the game and Saka had at least 30k in the first half an hour alone, maybe the people counting were only looking for certain words and not emojis.
    The whole booing of the taking the knee seemed to start at Millwall and the justification given was that it was a protest by politically aware fans against the political aims of the BLM movement. A few years ago, less than five, I was “entertained” at the Den, the opposition had a couple of black players that were subjected to monkey noises and other racist abuse by a clear majority of fans in the stadium. Afterwards I asked the person who took me what he thought of it and how he thought his own teams black players would feel and his response was “they’re ok, they’re still f***ing monkeys but they’re our f***ing monkeys.” The idea that the fans of that particular club are political intellectuals is a joke, they are racist thugs pure and simple.
    I think that the actual number of people in society that are openly racist may be a significant minority, but when you add in those that go along with it, laugh about it, share the racist memes or don’t see it as a problem and act on it you probably then reach a majority.
    There was a documentary in the 90s about racism in football it focused on Crystal Palace. One of the people there made a comment that it was a minority in the crowd and the suggestion being it was only a small percentage. A mate of mine pointed out at the time that 5 or 10% could basically mean several hundred people. To put this into perspective try to imagine sitting or standing in a crowd of thousands with several hundred of them chanting how they would like to see you and your entire family dead. Still feeling comfortable?

    I am not sure why people constantly make the comparison with rugby and why there is no trouble there. In big games and derbies there is trouble outside just nothing like on the scale that is seen at major football events and the simple reason is rugby just doesnt have the following that football does. Even teams like Saints or Wigan are not packing in premier league crowds and they are not even close to their neighbours in Liverpool or Manchester.

  8. #1008
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    The most enjoyable football games I watch are those my girls play in. There isn’t much crowd trouble or racist chanting in the South Manchester Girls’ League!

  9. #1009
    Grand Master Saint-Just's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by robert75 View Post

    I am not sure why people constantly make the comparison with rugby and why there is no trouble there. In big games and derbies there is trouble outside just nothing like on the scale that is seen at major football events and the simple reason is rugby just doesnt have the following that football does. Even teams like Saints or Wigan are not packing in premier league crowds and they are not even close to their neighbours in Liverpool or Manchester.
    Did you watch how the public reacted when the speaker announced the Tackle it campaign? Compare that with the boos in football.
    Yes the crowds are different. But it’s not a numbers game, it’s a question of culture.
    'Against stupidity, the gods themselves struggle in vain' - Schiller.

  10. #1010
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saint-Just View Post
    Today we have the challenge cup final between Castleford and St Helens. It is a popular, working men sport just like football. And the players are not exactly typical choir boys. The rivalry between the two is probably fairly close to that existing between Man U and Liverpool, or Arsenal and Tottenham.
    The players will take no prisoners but are unlikely to swarm the ref. And the fans will probably behave a lot better than what we saw 2 weeks ago. Now I realise that such a prediction may come back to bite me but why the difference with football?


    “Cricket is a gentlemen’s game played by gentlemen,
    Football is a gentlemen’s game played by thugs,
    Rugby Union is a thug’s game played by gentlemen,
    And Rugby League is a thug’s game played by thugs.”
    Last edited by oldoakknives; 18th July 2021 at 08:34.
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  11. #1011
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    Quote Originally Posted by robert75 View Post
    I am not sure why people constantly make the comparison with rugby and why there is no trouble there. In big games and derbies there is trouble outside just nothing like on the scale that is seen at major football events and the simple reason is rugby just doesnt have the following that football does. Even teams like Saints or Wigan are not packing in premier league crowds and they are not even close to their neighbours in Liverpool or Manchester.
    Exactly

    Rugby is very much a minority sport in comparison to football.
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  12. #1012
    Grand Master Saint-Just's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neil.C View Post
    Exactly

    Rugby is very much a minority sport in comparison to football.
    Is that minority selected on their tolerance, then?
    'Against stupidity, the gods themselves struggle in vain' - Schiller.

  13. #1013
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    I used to have season tickets at old Trafford, had them in the north stand for about 8 years, great times, no issues, my wife would travel with her friends to games, never felt unsafe.

    They then offered to swap us to the Stretford end, I thought it was too good an offer to pass up.

    Biggest mistake I ever made, the racist opinions, sexist views, just generally unpleasant place to be, after about a season my wife was no longer keen to go.

    Sitting in the north stand I guess you think it's just the minority, but its not.

    The abuse that Sancho Saka suffered was exactly the same as I heard grown men shout at drogba etc



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  14. #1014
    Quote Originally Posted by Neil.C View Post
    Exactly

    Rugby is very much a minority sport in comparison to football.
    People who think racism doesn’t exist in rugby or cricket or amongst their fans are deluded or more likely just part of the problem

  15. #1015
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    I've been to international rugby matches my entire life, used to be you respected the opposition

    Almost hand in hand with the various RFU's openly selling tickets online, the emergence at rugby of booing the national anthems and booing kickers.

    When you only sold tickets to rugby club members this didn't happen, but you then couldn't maximise profits

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  16. #1016
    Quote Originally Posted by Chewitt13 View Post
    I've been to international rugby matches my entire life, used to be you respected the opposition

    Almost hand in hand with the various RFU's openly selling tickets online, the emergence at rugby of booing the national anthems and booing kickers.

    When you only sold tickets to rugby club members this didn't happen, but you then couldn't maximise profits

    Sent from my Pixel 5 using Tapatalk
    Totally agree, I have been going to Twickenham for 35 years and it had got noticeably worse in the last decade. I think it’s due to selling out to corporate hospitality, with people only interested in getting drunk, and barely watching the game. Still nothing like the aggression and racist comments I experience at Wembley and the Dell watching football though.

  17. #1017
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neil.C View Post
    Exactly

    Rugby is very much a minority sport in comparison to football.
    Yes it is, very much so. But 70,000 people in a stadium and thousands outside in bars is still 70,000 whatever the sport. But the policing required for a football match compared to a comparable rugby one is not remotely in the same league/ballpark (puns intended).

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  18. #1018
    Quote Originally Posted by Ruggertech View Post
    Yes it is, very much so. But 70,000 people in a stadium and thousands outside in bars is still 70,000 whatever the sport. But the policing required for a football match compared to a comparable rugby one is not remotely in the same league/ballpark (puns intended).

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    On an average day that Rugby is played (Lets say Saturday) How many stadiums fill 40k plus? We are not even talking about premier league clubs, many championship clubs have large attendance. Saints ground has a capacity of 18,000, goodison park has nearly 40k anfield over 50k old trafford 74,000

  19. #1019
    Grand Master Saint-Just's Avatar
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    The Euros 2020

    Quote Originally Posted by robert75 View Post
    On an average day that Rugby is played (Lets say Saturday) How many stadiums fill 40k plus? We are not even talking about premier league clubs, many championship clubs have large attendance. Saints ground has a capacity of 18,000, goodison park has nearly 40k anfield over 50k old trafford 74,000
    But that was not the point he was making, was it?
    Yes football crowds globally dwarf rugby ones, even if we group league and union. But while supporters in rugby are certainly no saints, I took my daughter to many games without an afterthought, and never had to regret it, including in the Cabbage Patch.
    I wouldn’t take that chance in football, whether here or in France.
    'Against stupidity, the gods themselves struggle in vain' - Schiller.

  20. #1020
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saint-Just View Post
    But that was not the point he was making, was it?
    Yes football crowds globally dwarf rugby ones, even if we group league and union. But while supporters in rugby are certainly no saints, I took my daughter to many games without an afterthought, and never had to regret it, including in the Cabbage Patch.
    I wouldn’t take that chance in football, whether here or in France.
    But in the same tone, I’ve taken my daughter home and away with City on many many occasions with very little trouble .
    Sometimes I do think football fans are given a raw deal due to the actions of a very few people .

  21. #1021
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    I’ve watched live Rugby League for many years, starting in 1969. I’ve rarely seen crowd trouble at matches, there’s always a small minority of beer- fuelled idiots but they are very much in a minority.

    Robust language is still part and parcel of the experience but that’s not as bad as it used to be. On the subject of racism I can honestly say I haven’t heard a racist comment for over 20 years, possibly longer. It used to happen back in the 70s and 80s but the last overtly racist comment I remember was circa 1992. OK, it was bad in the past, terms like ‘coon’ and ‘nigger’ were commonplace but things changed completely a long while ago and I believe the sport has been genuinely inclusive for many years.

    Ironically, given the macho image of the sport, homophobia is virtually non- existent, over the past few years several openly gay players have played at top level and been totally accepted by fans and players.

    Football still seems to have problems with crowd behaviour and racism, sad but true. The larger numbers go some way to explain this but I think it goes deeper.

  22. #1022
    Grand Master Saint-Just's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by thegoat View Post
    Sometimes I do think football fans are given a raw deal due to the actions of a very few people .
    That is quite possible within a club fans community. But the booing during the euros was not the action of very few people: they are the actions of a large crowd who likes football enough to pay decent sums of money to get a seat at Wembley; the ticketless’ run, the altercations, the state of the nearby streets after the game and the social media furore were also the actions of a large crowd.
    'Against stupidity, the gods themselves struggle in vain' - Schiller.

  23. #1023
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saint-Just View Post
    But that was not the point he was making, was it?
    Indeed, it wasn't.

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    Last edited by Ruggertech; 18th July 2021 at 23:19.

  24. #1024
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    Quote Originally Posted by robert75 View Post
    On an average day that Rugby is played (Lets say Saturday) How many stadiums fill 40k plus? We are not even talking about premier league clubs, many championship clubs have large attendance. Saints ground has a capacity of 18,000, goodison park has nearly 40k anfield over 50k old trafford 74,000
    That's all true, but unfortunately you've completely missed my point. In a slightly alternative universe, if England were playing rugby union against Italy in Twickenham, and football against Italy in Wembley tomorrow, both with capacity crowds (covid not withstanding), what do you think the policing requirements would be in those areas given the dreadfull scenes barely a week ago? Would Italian restaurants need to barricade their windows in Twickenham? Would fans need to be segregated in Twickenham?


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  25. #1025
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saint-Just View Post
    That is quite possible within a club fans community. But the booing during the euros was not the action of very few people: they are the actions of a large crowd who likes football enough to pay decent sums of money to get a seat at Wembley; the ticketless’ run, the altercations, the state of the nearby streets after the game and the social media furore were also the actions of a large crowd.

    But I find it interesting that you appear to completely ignore the booing that takes place in the Stade to France towards the visiting teams (and on occasions they own team) every time a 6 Nations game takes place. Or are you suggesting it’s just the England supporters who boo.

    BTW Booing is something many people in the UK grew up with, when going to Christmas pantomimes and watching Punch and Judy . It’s usually done in jest rather than anything particularly nasty.

    Shouting abuse at players, officials or other spectators however is something else and certainly not confined to just English fans (of any particular sport).

    Whoever does not know how to hit the nail on the head should be asked not to hit it at all.
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  26. #1026
    Quote Originally Posted by Ruggertech View Post
    That's all true, but unfortunately you've completely missed my point. In a slightly alternative universe, if England were playing rugby union against Italy in Twickenham, and football against Italy in Wembley tomorrow, both with capacity crowds (covid not withstanding), what do you think the policing requirements would be in those areas given the dreadfull scenes barely a week ago? Would Italian restaurants need to barricade their windows in Twickenham? Would fans need to be segregated in Twickenham?


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    Nope you have clearly missed my point, football has a much higher fan base than rugby, much larger following. If England were playing a rugby match against Italy there would be likely be less of a police and steward presence but that would because the fan base would be considerably smaller. If the England football team played there would be thousand from lower league teams who never get a chance to watch international football wanting to go and see never mind fans of premier league clubs. We are simply talking about two different worlds there is just no comparison.

  27. #1027
    Quote Originally Posted by Andyg View Post
    But I find it interesting that you appear to completely ignore the booing that takes place in the Stade to France towards the visiting teams (and on occasions they own team) every time a 6 Nations game takes place. Or are you suggesting it’s just the England supporters who boo.
    I find it interesting that you appear to completely ignore the difference between the booing at players taking the knee in the Euros and the booing that takes place in the Stade de France towards the visiting teams (and on occasions they own team) every time a 6 Nations game takes place. Or are you suggesting there's no difference?

    R
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  28. #1028
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    Quote Originally Posted by robert75 View Post
    Nope you have clearly missed my point, football has a much higher fan base than rugby, much larger following. If England were playing a rugby match against Italy there would be likely be less of a police and steward presence but that would because the fan base would be considerably smaller. If the England football team played there would be thousand from lower league teams who never get a chance to watch international football wanting to go and see never mind fans of premier league clubs. We are simply talking about two different worlds there is just no comparison.
    Okay, now you explain it like that I see your point. If, let's say there are 20 million footbal fans and 2 million rugby fans, then there is ten times the chance of troublemakers turning up at Wembley because of the bigger fanbase, am I correct?
    That does make sense, but doesn't alter the fact that rugbly fans do not need to be segregated, in some cases even bussed in separately. Yes, there may be a spot of isolated fisticuffs, as always when the drink flows, but nothing to make the news or require extra policing. And certainly local businesses and citizens need have no fear.
    And it doesn't change the fact that if England played at Wembley and Twickenham, both tomorrow still stands, whatever the background and fanbase size of both sets of fans the policing levels etc required would be far far greater for the football match.
    It's not two different worlds, both involve groups of men chasing bags filled with air around similar sized fields, in similar stadiums, in the same city, watched by approximately 70,000 fans apiece. So comparisons can and will be made I'm afraid.

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    Last edited by Ruggertech; 20th July 2021 at 08:34.

  29. #1029
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    Quote Originally Posted by ralphy View Post
    I find it interesting that you appear to completely ignore the difference between the booing at players taking the knee in the Euros and the booing that takes place in the Stade de France towards the visiting teams (and on occasions they own team) every time a 6 Nations game takes place. Or are you suggesting there's no difference?

    R
    Firstly, someone specifically mentioned the booing that took place during the anthems. All I did was point out that this was not unique to football or a specific venue. It happens in the majority of sports, especially ones where large crowds are present and where “history” between countries exists. Not big or clever, but better than violence or subjecting people to teargas.

    Perhaps the answer to this is to ban the playing of all anthems and flags at international events or even simply ban international competition case it offends someone.

    In respect to the booing of the taking the knee, do you know why individuals decided to boo?
    Was it because they want to see sport free from politics, bored with all the virtual signalling and general woke, that they want to see action rather then gestures, that they were booing the political BLM organisation, etc, etc, etc or that they overly racist, card carrying white supremacists. I have no idea, but then neither do you. Was the booing rude and unnecessary, of course, but that’s was always the risk with protest at sporting events. Some people might protest against the protest, Shocker!

    Whoever does not know how to hit the nail on the head should be asked not to hit it at all.
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  30. #1030
    Quote Originally Posted by Andyg View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Saint-Just View Post
    That is quite possible within a club fans community. But the booing during the euros was not the action of very few people: they are the actions of a large crowd who likes football enough to pay decent sums of money to get a seat at Wembley; the ticketless’ run, the altercations, the state of the nearby streets after the game and the social media furore were also the actions of a large crowd.
    Firstly, someone specifically mentioned the booing that took place during the anthems.
    Erm, you quoted a comment and were replying to it, try reading it again and you will see it does not specifically mention the booing that took place during the anthems at all.

    R
    Ignorance breeds Fear. Fear breeds Hatred. Hatred breeds Ignorance. Break the chain.

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