Reply With QuoteDo you have the optional legal cover on your car insurance?
Small claims advice? A dodgy Alfa, perhaps I should've known better...
I was just wondering if anyone could give me some advice about a small claims case I'm thinking of filing against a car dealer that sold me my Alfa Romeo 159 Sportwagon...
Basically I bought the car unseen in November 2020, it photographed very well, had a good service record, 2 previous clean MOTs and had recently had a cam belt and clutch change. I thought I was getting a good deal. I'm currently living abroad but intermittently return home and the car has come in handy for getting around, even during a pandemic.
I'm due to be returning to the UK permanently from October and I asked my Dad to take it to the nearest Alfa specialist to repair a small list of things that needed doing (air-con, intermittent window switch, etc) I wasn't expecting anything massive. However, the garage carried out an inspection and found a massive amount of work that needed doing, specifically to the suspension, sill and front sub-frame. The quote came back at nearly £3500, just over what I paid for the car! It's fair to say that I was gutted and felt a fool. That particular garage quoted using expensive parts and labour so I had a second opinion from a trusted garage that my Dad uses and he's also identified a problem with the dual-mass flywheel, the quote, despite containing more parts/labour I expect will be around the same though.
I had a long chat with him on WhatsApp before buying the car and one description that stuck in my head is 'she’s good!! ', we also spoke on the phone and although I don't have recording but nothing was mentioned that was detriment to the condition of the car. I've since called him, which was, to say the least, not fruitful, as he saw it, everything was purely wear and tear and often said 'what did you expect?' The last MOT was from a garage around a mile from the dealers address and I question it's authenticity.
Both the mechanics I've seen have said that I should involve trading standards as they can't see how the amount of faults could have materialised within 7 months. To my mind, wearable items include tyres, brakes, some of the suspension components (although I question the quantity of them that have failed and not been detected by the previous MOT), but the sill has a hole large enough for your hand to pass though and the front sub-frame is so deteriorated they want to replace it. To my mind those are structural and make the car not fit for purpose?
My question is, what do we think my chances of success are, I've never done anything like this before and must admit to feeling a little intimidated, especially after my phone call with him.
I'd love to hear some thoughts and opinions about whether I should pursue it? I can give more details too if needed.
Any advice would be very gratefully received.
Do you have the optional legal cover on your car insurance?
Did you buy over the internet?
Distance selling rules will apply and I think - but am happy to be corrected - that means you can hand it back within 12 months.
MoT wise, it’ll be hard 7 months down the line. Mechanical issues is 3, body corrosion 6. Worth a try maybe but you may end up out of pocket.
Just checked, whilst it is fully comp, unfortunately I didn't take out the additional legal cover.Originally Posted by Jeremy67
Something I'll make sure I have in the future, but not useful this time unfortunately.
My understanding is that a small claims cost for the value I'm thinking about will cost between £1-200, but that would be self-representing.
Often your home content insurance will have legal coverage where you can speak with legal representation how may be able to advise/assist
Well it was kind of online, but after speaking to him he's not going to accept a return, he wasn't interested in paying for anything.
I think if it were surface corrosion I'd not have too much of a problem, but the extent of the corrosion, I would argue, pre-dates me purchasing it.
They say that the subframe is deteriorated but is it holed?
Similar happened to my brother in law. He used the motor ombudsman, wrote a few letters and after the ombudsman ruled in his favour said the garage should reimburse for repairs otherwise go to small claims court. Garage paid up.
If it were a true distance sale then 12 months if you were not made aware of your consumer rights via the purchase contract. If you were, it’s 14 days.
As for recourse on the faults, the court will look at the price paid, the age of the car, the realistic expectations of faults given the two previous statements, the length of ownership and useage.
MOT wise, very difficult to prove given the timescale.
At worst you will lose your claim fee and your court fee if you get that far. Depends on your claim value.
Surely the garage are only liable for three months, if you got a warranty you might want to use it
I’ve never known a warranty to cover corrosion, mechanical component failure but not structural or subframe corrosion.
It’s a lot easier to approach VOSA with corrosion issues within 6 months.
Also, an MoT means the vehicle met the MINIMUM required standard on the day of test. For corrosion, that’s finger and thumb pressure. I feel for you and feel sure the car was a wrong’un when it was sold but I can’t see VOSA being particularly helpful this far down the line.
Thanks for the advice guys, seems pretty bleak, I just checked and the car has done 1,506 miles since it's last MOT.
My thinking was to have it re-MOT'd now, carry out the repairs with lots of photos and then try to recover some of the repair bill.
I'm in two minds now with what to do, the repairs would make it a very expensive 159 (even if very sorted), or I could spend less money elsewhere...
Does anyone know if it's OK to claim after the repair, even if it turns out to be fruitless?
No, if you’re going down the route of trading standards etc then I wouldn’t touch it.
Is the sub-frame holed?
Trading standards the same as a small claim?
As in does the sub-frame have a hole in it? If so, I'm not sure, the garage has told me it's sufficiently corroded that they're not comfortable welding it.
TBH you’re not really supposed to weld subframe/ suspension components anyway so it shouldn’t be done....
Having been in the trade many years I’ve seen a lot of cases like yours, obviously the body sill is holed and as Dave righty said it would have been assessed with finger pressure only for the MOT, a slightly over zealous mechanic could easily put it through 7 months down the line.
If the sub-frame is holed then fair enough but corrosion doesn’t make the sub-frame dangerous, this really needs to be confirmed.
I'd rather spend a few hundred quid in court fees and lose than let him get away with it unchallenged.
I bet he's paid a few hundred for it at auction and made a good whack, he might make you an offer of a partial refund rather than gamble in court. You could cut your losses and at least make the car safe.
Any chance you paid by credit card? If so maybe some help from there.
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How old is the car, just playing devils advocate if you spent under 4K on an old Alfa there were almost inevitably going to be issues. Good luck though, good news is second hand prices have gone up. I understand you wouldn’t want to pass a problem on but you px or Chuck it in an auction.
Pretty sure the youngest 159 is a decade old, doesnt excuse the dealer, but might make a claim difficult as thats pretty close to the realistic life expectation of most normally used cars
I feel for you but I'm slightly confused about how you ended up here after sending the car in for aircon and window switch?
I think the garage are most definitely fishing for work.. I appreciate you have had a second opinion but the alfa prejudice still runs strong in the trade.
For info the 159 subframe issue was apparent at least 10 years ago and if you have the big alloys etc it will eat suspension parts.
What is the problem with the dual mass flywheel? Was it changed with the clutch? Because it should have been but most people cheap out because its a 1k job ,trust me I know!!
I wish the best of luck but I'm not optimistic about your chances.
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If the car was certified for road use. You might not have a case. If the mechanic your father took it to is a certified Alfa mechanic and willing to state in writing that the car was in fact not suitable.
You could have a case
No cooling off period for cars purchases
Might have to eat that repair
DON
I have used a letter before action (sent 'signed for') in the past for a consumer issue. This is usually worth a try (only costs you time and postage). Keep to the facts, non emotional, list out clearly the issue and what you will be claiming for should this go to court, include reasonable expenses, inconvenience, etc (but only things which are indeed 'reasonable' and can be justified, don't go over the top). In my case I gave an offer of a settlement to 'close' the issue and was paid pretty quickly. There are several templates online, eg:
https://www.which.co.uk/consumer-rig...ms-court-claim
My letter was a few pages long, also quoting the consumer rights act (replaced sale of goods), eg https://www.which.co.uk/consumer-rig...mer-rights-act
I also included the pre-court action guidance as an appendix to further illustrate I was serious, aware of my rights, and following protocol.
https://www.justice.gov.uk/courts/pr...action_conduct
While I won't comment on your specific issue, I have found this to be highly effective.
After 7 months vosa won't be interested at all. It will be very difficult for you to prove in court also . I would cut my loses and wbac it tbh.
Best of luck but if you don't know enough about something your buying always employ someone with more experience.
Does not help your current situation though . Do update us with your progress please.
I've had a few alfas and the suspension components are made of chocolate.
But more importantly I've learned to never take an Alfa to an Alfa specialist for repairs. They'll always want it to be repaired & minted.
Do what you have to do (i.e. the bare minimum) to get it a new mot. Then trade it in for something that won't be a money pit.
First you have to prove that the issues were present at the time of sale. Which won't be easy as so much time has elapsed. Then when you've done that, it's going to come down to what can reasonably be expected from a car of the age and mileage that you bought & the price that you paid (which you haven't explicitly shared with us.)
I think you have little chance of getting anywhere in the courts.
IANAL.
Lessons to be learnt here about the dangers of buying vehicles unseen. I have bought a couple of motorbikes unseen during the pandemic and just gone on my gut that all was well. I have been lucky and all was as was seen in the supplied videos before purchase and transporting to me.
Another option if it still has 5 months MOT left if to cut your loses and part exchange it for another car.
Hey guys, thanks for all the advice over the last few days. I'm truly stuck with a predicament now, I asked for the car to be MOT'd, which was actually completed on the 15th.
The list is frightening and now I'm in two minds whether to repair or scrap, my heart says repair but my brain is screaming to get rid of it. After speaking to you all I feel like there's no comeback for the dealer or the MOT station and I feel cheated for sure.
I've attached the MOT certificate and a pic of the car. As I said, the previous two MOTs are clean with no adviseries.
Anyway, cheers.http://cloud.tapatalk.com/s/60cb17a9...3022977140.pdf
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Thats an early car so obviously some issues will be expected.
I can't see the mot report for some reason?
Did it fail? Or is it all advisory?
Who carried out the MOT ? Was it an independent garage or one involving the previous inspections?
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Right I've viewed it now..
Its a big list but it looks like an ass covering session to be honest.
But it failed on tyres? Easy fix/wear and tear.
Park brake efficient adjust easy
Broken springs- big wheels cause this
Windscreen wash empty? Top it up
Lots of Other minor faults like bulbs etc no big deal.
Obviously the big ones are the corrosion failures but I believe they are the same fault twice which I think you knew about anyway- hole in the sill .
As for all those corrosion advised items thats definitely an ass covering job by the tester.
Its up to you of course but I think it could be back on the road for about 1k
Can you buy another car similar for 1k probably not.
A wire brush and some hammerite will remove all those corrosion advised items going forward.
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Quite amazing that it passed with no advisories last year and then all of these ones this year !!!! Anyone would think it had been parked in the sea to get that bad in 12 months ???
Cheers
Simon
Ralph Waldo Emerson: We ask for long life, but 'tis deep life, or noble moments that signify. Let the measure of time be spiritual, not mechanical.
For a 14 year old Italian car with 120K miles, that's not excessive.
Most of it is minor corrosion. Surface rust, wire brush and hammerite & it will be fine.
You need a new cill, new springs and bushes. Indicator colour is fixed with either new lenses or by bunging coloured bulbs in.
This is very much "better the devil you know". Fix the stuff that needs doing & know that you've addressed all the issues. It's not a new car, don't expect it to be. It's an old Alfa. I appreciate it's your P&J, but old Alfas have a reputation for a reason. In your shoes, I'd rather be driving one I've had fixed than risk getting another of unknown quality.
Lots of garages expect to earn extra from MOTs. They fail stuff that's borderline in the expectation of getting the work to fix it. Washer jet FFS? unblock it with a pin and move on.
Take it elsewhere get a quote for fixing and giving it an MOT.
Last edited by mikeveal; 17th June 2021 at 15:46.
Can you not take it to the garage the dealer used?
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