Reply With QuoteHave you tried ABTA/ATOL? (I forget which is which)
Did you pay any of it on credit card?
Maybe worth trying them before court.
My family have a holiday booked with Mark Warner, departing 2 May. They have been ruthless in avoiding giving a refund and only offering the chance to rebook next year. This does not work for us due to work commitments.
They have left it extremely late but eventually have just cancelled the holiday. I guess a Mexican standoff , so we accept the credit note or insurance foot the bill.
Due to the fact they have cancelled , as per part 3 S13(3) of the The Package Travel and Linked Travel Arrangements Regulations 2018 c 684. They have to provide a full refund. Section 14 states not later than 14 days after the package travel contract is terminated.
Mark Warner are completely ignoring this legislation and denying a refund. My only option now is to head to small claims and recover the 3k after the 14 days.
Has anyone had experience and can comment on time frame for recovery? I guess things will be slow at the moment.
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Have you tried ABTA/ATOL? (I forget which is which)
Did you pay any of it on credit card?
Maybe worth trying them before court.
Last edited by MakeColdplayHistory; 27th April 2020 at 19:12.
There is another thread on here about ABTA ATOl etc.
Which published this advice recently
https://www.which.co.uk/news/2020/04...C_WS_EM_240420
Fingers crossed you booked using a credit card. If so speak to them about initiating a ‘chargeback’. They will refund your money and chase the money from the provider on your behalf. Amex are brilliant at this, the other providers less so (but will act for you).
This company absolutely owe you a full refund by the way. They are behaving appallingly.
Thank you, Mark Warner ditched the ABTA membership. They really are acting terribly.
I understand they are most likely trying to stay afloat. The problem is, even if they do stay in business they will lose a lot of repeat customers. I will not travel with them again.
I know legally they will have to pay, but annoying to have to go through this effort. If they have major cash flow problem explaining to me (the customer) they need longer to refund wouldn’t have been a problem.
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Unfortunately many airlines and hotels have dealt with this poorly. I feel the same as you - I would have happily taken refunds in the form of vouchers etc if companies had been more upfront and honest in their communications. But more have done the opposite.Originally Posted by cnjm1
Sounds like Mark Warner are really pushing it though. Get onto your CC company ASAP
Thank you, I will speak to credit card company tomorrow. It will be a lot easier than small claims.
On a side note , my wife is an NHS Dr. Two days ago I explained to them she needs to sign up to shifts by the end of the day or she will not be put on the rota. I asked if they could please let us know if they intend to cancel the holiday. travel restrictions have been confirmed to remain in place past 2 May. If they cancel my wife can commit to shifts.
They replied that they will not cancel the holiday and intend to run it. I explained how this is impossible and by doing this you are denying the NHS a Dr for the period of the holiday.
They didn’t care.
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Last edited by cnjm1; 27th April 2020 at 19:26.
In the first post you stated that they had finally cancelled the holiday - yet in this post you state that they are planning to go ahead with the holiday.
In the first case you’’d be on fairly firm ground for a refund as they are cancelling - in the second scenario most travel operators have a 100% cancellation fee this close to a departure date so you’d be less likely to see a refund unless you are covered by insurance and have a reason for cancellation.
PS: thanks go to your wife and everyone helping treat COVID-19
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Sorry I explained it badly (obviously I can’t multi-task)In the first post you stated that they had finally cancelled the holiday - yet in this post you state that they are planning to go ahead with the holiday.
In the first case you’’d be on fairly firm ground for a refund as they are cancelling - in the second scenario most travel operators have a 100% cancellation fee this close to a departure date so you’d be less likely to see a refund unless you are covered by insurance and have a reason for cancellation.
PS: thanks go to your wife and everyone helping treat COVID-19
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They cancelled at 1806 tonight. I called them 2 days ago to explain the situation with wife’s work, it hadn’t been cancelled then.
Either way they would have to provide a full refund, the contract T&Cs have a Force Majeure clause stating they will give full refund but no compensation.
I pointed this out but they don’t care. I’m glad they cancelled as it is a bit more clear cut and I have implied terms of the legislation.
They are just going to make me work to get my money back!
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You should write a letter, send by Special Delivery and give them 14 days to refund your money and state that unless this is done by a defined date you will take out a summons in the Small Claims Court. Keep the letter very matter of fact, quoting their own T&Cs where appropriate and also the applicable legislation. You'll probably find example letters on moneysavingexpert.com
I have been to the Small Claims Court three times (though not for 12 years) and won every time. On two of those occasion the defendant didn't turn up which made things quite quick and easy. I recently wrote to Now TV who were refusing to issue a refund for a Sky F1 Pass. With a day to go to the deadline I'd given them I was e-mailed and offered a refund. Companies like this rely on people not being persistent and having the courage to take legal action. My sister and family had a skiing holiday in Canada for a family of four cancelled and the company (can't recall who it was booked with) told them to go through their insurance company - er, no!
Everyone understands that companies in certain sectors are struggling but their behaviours will be long remembered and they're doing themselves no favours by these illegal behaviours. I will never use Now TV again.
Thanks for the advice, every correspondence with them has been nothing more than fact.
I emailed them tonight stating the ‘no later date’ for my refund. You don’t need to send a letter. The ‘Postal Rule’ applies to emails, receipt is just applied different. During normal business hours rather than the moment you post it.
I get pushing back a couple of times but I just think it’s ruthless to a) continue to push keep the money b) David Hopkin me the CEO be happy to deny the NHS of a Dr, even if it is only one for one week. I cc’d him in the email.
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Another tack - have a pop at them on their Twitter and Facebook pages?
No reason why you can't do this in parallel.
If they cancelled tonight ask them in writing for a refund tomorrow.
If they refuse take it up with your credit card issuer as the supplier has now defaulted on their part of the credit agreement you entered into.
Good luck and keep safe!
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I’ve used small claims court, had to follow through with my threat, file the papers, go to the first hearing (just a formality, only me their previous not the other side). Once a hearing date was set they caved and paid up, including expenses.
Of a company won’t pay up, if it gets to the point of papers being issued they usually pay as it costs them mor3 to defend that to pay out. But you have to follow through. Took about 4-6 months in total (threaten, file, 1st court appearance then hearing scheduled).
Never used it but threatened a travel agent yesterday with it as they initially said claim from your travel insurance. I pointed out that they are ABTA members and the law requires they give me a refund. Given them seven days.
Used "small claims" 4 times in the past, won all 4 cases, just include as much detail as possible and make sure that you can be seen to have attempted other avenues of resolution to prior to making the claim.
"Once is happenstance. Twice is coincidence. The third time it's enemy action."
'Populism, the last refuge of a Tory scoundrel'.
bring a section 75 claim against the credit card provider who you used to pay for the booking. You can do it over the phone with your card provider and its pretty straight forward. You are only covered if it was a credit card not a debit card, small claims should be the last place you go given the hassle and length of time it will take to resolve, that said you would also get costs back as well.
I had the same problem with Ryanair who cancelled my flights on the day of departure earlier this month, I paid with debit card, I gave them around 10 days to refund me as they wouldn’t do so. Eventually I called my bank and they immediately issued me with a full refund once I proved that I had given Ryanair a reasonable amount of time to refund me. Don’t bother going to court as this is by far the easiest way to obtain a full refund. It was literally a 15 minute phone call. And wether you paid by DC or CC it makes no difference
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who was your card provider because DC transactions are NOT covered under section 75, it may well be that your DC provider offers additional payment protection as an added benefit but this is rare now. Most mainstream banking providers would reject an DC claim unless they subscribe to the Chargeback scheme which is not legally covered under the Consumer Credit Act
You received a refund from your bank for a DC transaction with another company? Don't think my bank offers this but I might ask them.
Thanks for peoples opinion using CC to refund.
I’ll give Mark Warner the 14 days (the law actually states no undue delay, max 14 days) then contact CC company. I don’t hold much hope for Mark Warner refunding but will update the post if they do.
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Contacting your CC company should be your last resort. It may be easier but it will end up costing us more. If the company is insolvent it's fine, otherwise just chase them
'Against stupidity, the gods themselves struggle in vain' - Schiller.
This is not good advice, seriously. It will not ‘cost us more’ - the CC company will secure the refund from the provider on behalf of the OP. He is owed this by law and given the company’s stance to date (ie a clear refusal to return his money) he should make his credit provider aware immediately.
Why should he waste hours ‘just chasing’ them for what his lawfully his? I understand many travel providers are hurting badly at the moment, but when they are behaving in such an underhand manner they deserve nothing IMO.
Yes it was my debit card (I bank with Barclays) All they wanted to know is had I attempted to resolve the issue directly with Ryanair. I explained that their refund feature on the website simply didn’t work and that I had attempted to call several times and they were not picking up the phone due to high levels of calls. I’m pretty sure it was a chargeback, just explain that you have tried to resolve it with the airline but they will not respond or refund.
1) the CC company may or may not secure the refund. It may be cheaper for them to let it go. In any case it will act as an insurance and will want to recoup the funds/extra work and guess who'll end up paying? (caveat: since they charge as much as they think they can get away with, I am not sure that not using them to get money back will save us anything)
2) It is indeed rightfully his, so he needs to get the law to force the company to pay it back, not use a 'get out of jail' card unless it's a last resort. Threatening them with SCC and taking them to task is the way to give the travel providers what they deserve, not a CC refund.
'Against stupidity, the gods themselves struggle in vain' - Schiller.
1) a credit card company will not just ‘let go’ three grand.
2) all well and good, but why should he have to go through the weeks and months of hassle of the SCC?
I actually do agree with you regarding not rushing straight to a credit chargeback (I posted to this effect in the BA thread). But this situation is different because of the providers stance. But anyway, we’ll probably have to agree to disagree on this one! :cheers:
The Small Claims Court is an utter waste of time and expensive to enforce judgements. I'd look into making a Statutory Demand instead. The prospect of a winding up order has always concentrated the minds of people/firms I've used them on.
Indeed I don't think we disagree (much). I want them taken to task for their attitude towards their customers, despite having little sympathy for banks in general and credit card companies in particular. If there is a better way than SCC (as the buffoon seems to suggest), I am all for it.
'Against stupidity, the gods themselves struggle in vain' - Schiller.
you are both right to one degree or another
- The CC company do take a commercial decision to retrieve payouts from a section 75 claim, depends on the card issuer. some of the largest banks in the UK will attempt to re-coup but do not expend huge amounts of time doing so as the success rate is low
- There is cost and that cost is applied in the interest rate charged to all consumers cards, SVR varies but its not just because its unsecured lending that means the rate is often 15% +, its also the on cost of section 75 claims
- Finally the hassle of the SCC process in pursuit of a refund is exactly that, hassle when the section 75 process is far more straightforward, but quite often the seller gets off the hook but only in the short term, if a significant number claims go against a seller their merchant status for card payments with Visa, Mastercard etc gets withdrawn, but that is only if enough CC providers chase for the refund
Thanks - not quite as straightforward as I thought then. Very useful and informative, much appreciate the detailed post
Ref the original post - I have a small travel company so am following all of this sort of thing very closely. Thankfully all of our guests so far have been very happy to reschedule, but clearly that doesn’t work for everyone, so I see it from both sides.
You are correct that legally as they have cancelled they now need to refund you within 14days.
ATOL/ ABTA etc only pay out when an operator is insolvent.
Crucially I think MW are stalling because:
A). They don’t have the cash
and/ or;
B). They’re waiting for the Refund Credit Note option to be passed as an emergency amendment to the Package Travel Regs, effectively overriding their refund obligation for the short term.
I strongly suspect your travel insurance policy won’t pay out to reimburse you, either.
So best bet is to take whatever steps are necessary to sharpen their minds to fulfil their (current) legal obligations. I’m afraid I don’t have any experience of timescales of claims via other options.
Best of luck and please do report back.
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Thank you and I agree they are stalling but I’m hoping they won’t retrospectively apply the law seeing as they have cancelled with existing law in place.
I have emailed and posted a letter before action (LBA) and will proceed with small claims.
I haven’t seen the draft amendment going thru parliament yet. Anyway, I have had to give them 14 days then proceed with SCC.
To be honest it was purely work situation and a commitment to a trip to Oz next year why we wouldn’t accept a credit note. If they have refunded us , I would have used MArk Warner in the future. I will never travel with them or advise anyone I know to use them.
I understand pushing credit note etc but when someone clearly knows the law and requests their right...just pay up.
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Sorry forgot to ask,
I’ve heard about the requested amendment to the 2018 Act , however it doesn’t appear on list of legislation going thru parliament. It hasn’t had its first reading in Lords or Commons.
When does the travel industry expect this Bill to be put before parliament?
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We all know we are in wholly unprecedented times. Hundred of thousands (if not low millions) in the same boat looking for refunds, including me. You’ll get your refund, even if you have to go through your CC company. I know you want it now, but so do 10 million other people across the travel industry.
I’m no fan of Michael O’Leary but in an interview with Sky he said that because of social distancing only quarter of his admin staff are at work. Yet the number of refund requests had gone from 10,000 per month (normal times) to 10 million per month. He said you’ll get a refund from Ryanair but it may take months. Every travel company bar none are trying the hard sell on travel vouchers, as there will likely be no travel industry otherwise. No excuse not to pay in the end.
Wholly against using a court to settle these unsettling times unless you are absolutely desperate for the money, and can’t survive without it. I would chill a little. Cut a little slack and give MW some proper time.
You are acting a bit like we are in normal times and you are the only person looking for a refund.
Last edited by noTAGlove; 28th April 2020 at 20:25.
Trade bodies are still lobbying the government, and the government aren’t committing to anything at the moment. I do get updates and happy to email a copy to you if you DM me.
My view is that it would be a rather unpopular amendment - the government know that Brits expect their refunds and legal rights to protect them (and their well earned holidays).
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You are responding as if the company has acted reasonably.
I have no worries waiting for a refund and if the company had been upfront with me I would have waited as long as they ask.
The issue is, they have cancelled ski holidays and promised people refunds. Then gone back on the word and said they can only have a credit note. Every time I have spoken with them they have flatly denied the right to a refund and left it as late as possible to cancel holiday.
The contract T&Cs include refund for cancellation due to Force Majeure. If you want to cover yourself for different terms, expressly write it into your contract (as long as it’s reasonable).
The law is there for a reason. I am being strict with my rights on this because they happily denied my request to cancel the holiday so my wife could work an extra week for the NHS. They have not acknowledged my right but instead insisted their position.
It is abnormal times and would expect a CEO to step up and make sound decisions not only to ensure the survival of the company but to not damage the brand. If they have come to the judgement that the stance they are taking is least worst option then stand by for people to exercise their right in law.
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Great PM inbound.
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You may be against using the courts but if you wait too long the may have gone bankrupt and the liquidators will take every non secured pound they can scrape.
The courts will give you back the money that is rightfully yours. The CC will give you money that it will recoup from the public.
'Against stupidity, the gods themselves struggle in vain' - Schiller.
Very few travel companies are acting reasonably at the moment. You are just one of hundreds of thousands of people fighting for a refund across the whole travel industry.
Section 75 makes the CC company jointly liable as you will know, even if MW go bankrupt. He will get his refund.
Imagine if everyone who was owed money by the travel industry at the moment made a simultaneous small claim. You can guarantee immediate bankruptcy.
Given them some time, and there is a better chance you will get your money back without resorting to the CC company, and a better chance the travel provider may survive.
When I need time to extend a deadline or complete a task I politely request an extension . When someone requires a favour from me they have a much better chance when they ask politely rather than demand or threaten me. The same applies here , if they were upfront and fair I would have happily given them all the time they needed.
I believe in the Rule of Law and admire the U.K. legal system. The moment they flat out refused to offer refund I felt aggrieved.
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Exactly that.
Furthermore if refunding customers for a product/service you haven’t supply kills you, it’s capitalism and you can’t have the advantages without accepting the rules.
I know things are not that simple; this is why there are professional insurances.
But even that may not be enough. If you need good will from your customers treat them well and ask politely. Some will still need (or want) their refund but you should get good will from most. Treat them like shit and they’ll demand what is legally theirs regardless of the consequences for you.
'Against stupidity, the gods themselves struggle in vain' - Schiller.
I wonder where all this is gong to end. I just can’t see all these airlines, hotels, cruise lines, holiday parks, holiday companies, theatres, concerts and anything to do with the travel and entertainment industry being able to give refunds, whether it’s right or not. I wonder in these times whether the small claims court will be able to enforce anything and being extreme, whether these credit card companies will be even able to homie their agreements to make refunds. I can see loads of companies going out of business and even the credit card companies if all this is enforced. I’m owed over £12,000 in refunds for flights, hotels, concerts and a cruise and I’m hoping to get it back. I have considered that I might not see a penny. I think I will, but I’m not overly confident. Some have raised a lot of cash to see this through, many others haven’t and can’t. We could see some very big name casualties quite soon. BA talking about making 12,000 redundant today.
Long story with Mark Warner cancelling‘Covid’ holiday which was rescheduled twice and refusing to refund each time. Latest: 18th May they cancelled the invoice as I rejected the rescheduling and I’ve submitted a small claim. Today I heard they have asked for an extension to 21st June. Any advice whether I should dispute this as I’ve read in other posts about them having to pay within 14 days...
We have a delinquent tenant in one of the shops my brother & I own.
We've used the SCC several times & threatened even more often. He always pays up on / just before the last day he gets to respond.
Failure to do so would count against his credit history.
Andy
Wanted - Damasko DC57
I've used the small claims court both for work and a couple of times personally.
if you go to https://www.moneyclaim.gov.uk/web/mcol/welcome you need to register and then you fill in the details of your claim, for a claim of £3000 it would cost you £115. But here's what I've done before, fill in the details and get to the point where you need to enter payment details, then take a screenshot and send it to the defendant and state "are you sure you want to go down this route". There is a 50/50 chance of them just issuing you with the refund, it worked for me a couple of weeks ago
EDIT - Realised I was relaying a personal experience to my own comment earlier in the thread. Whoops.
Last edited by paule23; 25th May 2021 at 08:14.
If they win can they not pursue you for their legal costs?
Not in small claims court
So if someone took me to SCC, and i won but it cost me £4k in legal fees etc, i wouldn't be able to recoup that cost?
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