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Thread: IWC - what's the big deal?

  1. #1
    Master earlofsodbury's Avatar
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    IWC - what's the big deal?

    I've no particular axe to grind here, but this company puzzles me more than any other in Richemont's portfolio.

    They make some decent watches for sure - provided you like endless variations on the flieger theme or the rather dreary Portugieser, Ingenieur, &c.

    New in-house movements have slowly crept-in, albeit only because of the ETA supply crisis, and even now their "cheaper" watches employ Sellita movements which - however-wrongly - are freely sneered-at when used by companies with less brand cachet.

    Occasional spasms of "haute horlogerie" gush-forth from them, but most of what they offer is hyper-conservative, unchallenging to mass-produce, and yet inexplicably very expensive.

    You also have to factor-in the high costs and horror stories associated with Richemont's parts availability, repair and servicing of in-house movements.

    And it's really the high prices that bemuse me. If you consider the fliegers for which they're best-known, there's plenty of other companies offering near-identical watches, some of them even share IWC's proud tradition of supplying Nazi Germany with quality wristwatches to help them accurately bomb the rest of Europe - and apart from Lange & Sohne, all of them are significantly cheaper.

    An IWC in-house movement Big Pilot 3-hander is £8,000 on a bracelet! Sure the Pellaton winder is an interesting curiosity, but for what is otherwise much the same watch Stowa will charge you £800! Go to someone like Dekla and you can add a scratchproof case, extensive customisation etc, and have change from £600, and they're by no means the cheapest option...

    Is this just a triumph of marketing a la Rolex, or is there something I'm missing?

  2. #2
    Master
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    I thought they were meant to be the thinking mans Rolex? :)
    I do like the 70ís Yacht Club sports watches . I gather that these were better put together than Omega Seamaster and Rolex offerings at the time. Pricing seems fair for them as well
    The Aqua Timer bought 2nd hand always looks good value for money

  3. #3
    Master
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    For me, the history of the Mark XI and the looks of the models that came after. I didn't love anything in their current catalogue, but every time a Mark XII or XV comes up on sales corner I'm sorely tempted.

  4. #4
    Craftsman rodia77's Avatar
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    Similar thoughts to the OP here.

    I like some of their models but I won't be buying till their prices stop being offensive. Meaning, I'm not buying an IWC in this lifetime.

    As to why they get away with their prices, yep, marketing is my guess, riding on an episode from their history.

  5. #5
    Grand Master
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    As others have said, price is based on heritage and marketing. I've just spec'd up this one at Dekla with a Selitta, onion crown and white luminova for £600:

    https://deklawatches.com/en/pilot/typea40
    Last edited by TaketheCannoli; 17th May 2021 at 22:10.

  6. #6
    Master Wazza's Avatar
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    IWC seem to be moving in the right direction but as far as Richemont brands, what on earth are Panerai doing at the moment? Insanely overpriced 100% recyclable and 3D printed watches? That puzzles me a lot more.

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  7. #7
    Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by gerrudd View Post
    For me, the history of the Mark XI and the looks of the models that came after. I didn't love anything in their current catalogue, but every time a Mark XII or XV comes up on sales corner I'm sorely tempted.
    Agree with this. I also love my XVIII, aka Tribute to XI. And the 3706 flieger chronograph is so much better than any of their current chronographs.

  8. #8
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    I really like the Portugieser, and donít find them dreary at all. I suppose I prefer the more traditional style, instead of the seemingly endless tool watches of other brands. I would have bought one if they werenít so damn expensive. If IWC priced them at a fifth of what they currently sell at, would they sell five times more?

  9. #9
    Master earlofsodbury's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mark lowman View Post
    ... The Aqua Timer bought 2nd hand always looks good value for money
    I was barely aware those exist, and they re actually rather nice, if inevitably spendy.



    Quote Originally Posted by TaketheCannoli View Post
    I've just spec'd up this one at Dekla with a Selitta, onion crown and white luminova for £600:
    Your spec doesn't link, but I would find the extra ~£90 for the scratch-resistant 6Steel...

    Mind... Do you keep anything long enough to scratch it?



    Quote Originally Posted by Wazza View Post
    ... what on earth are Panerai doing at the moment? Insanely overpriced 100% recyclable and 3D printed watches? That puzzles me a lot more.
    Deserves its own thread, but the answer is - the zany, wack and megabuck stuff is what gets column inches in blogs, magazine, social media, forums etc. Don't need to sell many, they pay for themselves in free advertising.

  10. #10
    Master
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    Yes I agree, IWC are somewhat returning to form in many ways, return of the 41mm pilot chronographs with see through backs and quick release straps etc.

    Panerai? Yes.....deserves its own thread.

  11. #11
    Craftsman Idontgram's Avatar
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    I donít know if you and I have been reading the same stuff Paul, but this video is quite interesting:

    https://youtu.be/IOGlRNrdHQs

    Essentially Georges Kern (now of Breitling) explaining how IWC build brand value out of thin air.

    Having said that, and accepting many of the points made; I like them. They work hard to convey a sense of elegance in many of their products, rightly or wrongly, it appeals to me.

    I accept much of that is marketing, but so is the rough-tough bomb-proof tool watch vibe. Pricing is just based on what a brand can get away with and good salesmanship.

    Would I buy a Mark Flieger, or a Portugieser? Absolutely, but only second hand, and after some substantial changes to my watch buying rules.

  12. #12
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    Historically excellent in-house movements and then a brilliant period post revival in the 90s is what I've always associated with them. Since then, there's basically nothing there for me.
    Their bracelets are supposed to be some of the best as well - I'm somewhat regretting passing on the Mark XII on bracelet.....

    I really struggle with the newer offerings from quite a few mid-luxury brands that are upping pricing in line with market leaders.

  13. #13
    I do love many IWC watches except those mainly produced during George Kern regime.
    It was him who transformed IWC from an engineering minded hardcore watch manufacturer to a fashion paparazzi watch maker.

    It will take years to restore faith and brand loyalty back after his departureÖ..
    Heís now repeating the same predicament in BreitlingÖ.

  14. #14
    Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kamakazie! View Post
    Historically excellent in-house movements and then a brilliant period post revival in the 90s is what I've always associated with them. Since then, there's basically nothing there for me.
    I'm pretty much the same, I love their '90s period but not much from the turn of the century to the present really appeals to me.

    For me the marketing was certainly the initial hook. I was on a train to London one morning in 1994 with my 10p copy of The Times and I was really taken by an ad for an IWC chrono. After I moved to London a few months later I went into Garrards to try on a Doppel that they had in the window display. It was too big for my wrist but they gave me a hardback book to take away, with lots of tempting glossy pics. I was really smitten by the XII and eventually I bought one. Bought a 3521 a year or so later, then a beautiful limited edition white dial XV which I sadly no longer have.

    Perhaps it's irrational brand loyalty but there's just something about IWCs, or many of them, from that time that really grabs me.

  15. #15
    Master Christian's Avatar
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    I feel the same as others have already said...I was interested until the Mk XV then not so much afterwards. Being part of Richemont has always put me off too...I'd mych prefer to be dealing with Rolex or Swatch Groups if I had an after-sales issue.

  16. #16
    Master
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    For me, IWC ends with:-

    5002 BP
    3706
    MK XII
    MK XV
    3536 Ti Aquatimer (still the best crown and bezel action / feel I've experienced when I had a look at one in Manchester years ago !)

    Nothing else since has done it for me.

  17. #17
    Master helidoc's Avatar
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    As a teenager in the 80's, before I had any understanding of watches, I really liked the idea of owning an IWC. More restrained and less gauche than Rolex, a thinking mans choice.

    Fast forward to now, there isn't a lot that does it for me. The Big Pilot is outstanding, expensive and impractical, but part of me still wants one.
    A lot of their stuff is quite forgettable, Aquatimer, Portofino, modern Ingenieur.

    They are big on the Pilot line, look at their online catalogue, the number of models and variations are just huge! Are they an authentic pilot watch maker? There must be 40 years between the Mark XI and XII, I don't think you will find much pilot related in a vintage catalogue. The Mark series are OK, if a bit boring. There always seems to be some kind of execution flaw, date position, date cutout, etc. The Flieger Chrongraphs are a bit of a me too product. In the 50s and 60s, the time of Lemania and Type XX chronographs, IWC weren't in that market at all. Modern Valjoux 7750 pilot chronographs inspired by these watches started being produced by Sinn, Fortis etc a good 5 years before the IWC 3706. The new 41mm pilot chrono is a good watch if you want a dressy version of such a thing, although for myself I think there in more honesty in a Sinn or Damasko.

    The Portuguese chronograph is a design classic, and at least has a movement more inkeeping with its price.

    I have a vintage Cal 89, but I can't see myself owning a modern IWC.

    Dave

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  18. #18
    Similar to others when I first got into watches I loved the look of IWC especially the Poutugieser chronograph but seeing the attitude of the owners and the value of the watch I bought a Dornbluth.

    I now have a second Dornbluth on order and the only IWC I have is a vintage cal 89

  19. #19
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    Iím with you on this OP. I was looking at their bronze 41mm flieger but then came across a beautiful Stowa flieger in bronze on TZ and made me wonder why on earth i would pay what IWC are asking.....

    I do love their designs but their pricings and customer service horror stories put me off greatly. Although a couple of my colleagues have IWCs and love them. Maybe one day Iíll be brave enough

  20. #20
    Grand Master MartynJC (UK)'s Avatar
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    Tend to agree. However, I did like this worldtimer while I had it. Just slightly too wide for me else I’d have kept it




    "Time is an illusion, lunchtime doubly soĒ. HHGTTG


  21. #21
    Master
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    I still love IWC even if not all of their current offerings but at least for me, they have an identity and some wonderful older models, the Doppel Chrono in particular. That said, this current release looks fabulous and with regards pricing, they're all over priced!

    ē

  22. #22
    George was impressive in how he ruined the Ingenieur - this one from the late 00s I continue to enjoy. From when George took over it went very wayward.




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  23. #23
    Master earlofsodbury's Avatar
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    Interesting reading in this thread. No question, their products are appealing, I like them, but names like Dornbluth showing-up speak volumes - beautiful, well-made, interesting, more exclusive - and yet, more affordable too.

    It is something I've perhaps failed to properly grasp, that image counts for so very much, arguably more than actual content.


    Quote Originally Posted by Idontgram View Post
    I donít know if you and I have been reading the same stuff Paul, but this video is quite interesting:

    https://youtu.be/IOGlRNrdHQs
    ...
    Lol'd at Kevin Spacey appearing - that casting certainly hasn't stood the test of time! Some honest insight from Kern though.

    I do now better understand why I like the watches I do: content > image. Perhaps as much to do with age as anything mind.

  24. #24
    Overall, I’d agree IWC tend to often be overpriced and the Richemont reputation is off-putting.

    However, I’m wary of comparing their Pilot range with a Stowa or Dekla etc. Fine watches (especially Stowa), but unless you’re also speccing an iron magnetism shield, pressure resistant crystal and Top Grade ETA 2892, plus comparable levels of finishing, you’re not truly comparing like-for-like. Brand cachet, history, design etc. all have value too. I think the little details matter. Now, does all that bridge the price gap between IWC and Stowa? No, probably not, but for some it’s enough.

    Personally, the only time I’ve come close to buying an IWC Pilot watch (and justifying the value proposition, therefore), is when it comes with the truly excellent bracelet you find on the Mark XVII onwards. With a push-button adjustable clasp, great perlage & bevel finishing and links that can be fully broken down at the push of a button, they really are superbly engineered. This excellent thread shows how good they are: https://forum.tz-uk.com/showthread.p...deconstruction
    Last edited by Stringer; 18th May 2021 at 16:01.

  25. #25
    Nice watches from a brand with significant history, some good in-house movements - no mystery there.
    Just like most other brands not for everyone, some ups and downs and some duds as well.

  26. #26
    Master Rinaldo1711's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RAJEN View Post
    Nice watches from a brand with significant history, some good in-house movements - no mystery there.
    Just like most other brands not for everyone, some ups and downs and some duds as well.
    This : I still like (some) of them.

  27. #27
    Grand Master
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    I love some of the older models, particularly in ingenieur form and im a sucker for a big pilot.
    Cant say I've ever given any of their modern "dressier" watches like the portofino or portugeiser a second glance, but that's true of any formal style watch for me.

    I think modern pricing is ludicrous but its much the same as all of the luxury swiss brands? 10k Panerai, 8k IWC, 5.3k for a speedy!
    Im feeling my age not in years but in watch prices

  28. #28
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    I am a fan of Mark XII and Mark XV. I havenít been able to find a condition/location/price of watch that I like yet, but XV is definitely coming at some point.

  29. #29
    Apprentice
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    I have a Mark xvi and still love it after all these years. When I first saw it in the shop window in Newcastle, it was a bit of a love at first sight moment, it's pure simplicity was stunning. I couldn't get it out of my mind and so the purchase was completed a few months later.

    They are not cheap but the quality of finish is first rate and my wife always picks it out as the watch she would happily relieve me of.

    Oddly enough though, one IWC is enough for me, not really interested in getting a second one.

  30. #30
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    For some reason IWC seem to be a brand that people love to bash, particularly with the charge that the same products can be bought for less. I sort of understand this, but don't altogether agree with a lot of the criticism.

    Without wanting to repeat what others have said, they do have an interesting history and some classic movements like the calibre 89. They also have genuine high horology credentials and some genuine timeless classics like the Portugieser.

    As regards the Nazi supplier comment, funnily enough this accusation could be more accurately directed at brands like Stowa and Laco who are often suggested as cheaper alternatives to IWC. Those brands still trade heavily on their Nazi watches and effectively still produce replicas of them. IWC's wartime history is somewhat more complicated and classicly Swiss - ie they played both sides and made money in the process.

    I have a connection with aviation and when I decided to buy a pilot watch, I tried them all - visited Baselworld, toured around Germany looking at their brands (Tourby small pilot was my favourite of these) and tried on every one I could in other places. None matched the IWCs (up to Mark XVI), and so I just don't agree that there are equal quality watches from other brands that are far cheaper. It is fair to say that you can get 80-90% of the watch for less money, but that can be said of so many watches.

    I do agree that IWCs have been expensive for what they are, particularly in the mid 2000s when they seemed to be resting on their laurels, and were taking the mickey when they quietly replaced ETA movements with Sellita without a drop in price, but I think they have realised their mistakes in this regard and quietly started to row back slightly on their prices. They are far more in house orientated lately, although their movements are simply too thick.

    They offer classicly styled watches but I think they should start shaking things up a bit. Hopefully the Watches and Wonders concept watch was the shape of things to come.

    Finally, my experience of customer service has been good. Perhaps I've just been lucky.

  31. #31
    Master
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    I bought this from Watchfinder back in February of this year. It has become a firm favourite with me. One of just 1948.

  32. #32
    Grand Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by \\seabiscuit View Post


    I bought this from Watchfinder back in February of this year. It has become a firm favourite with me. One of just 1948.
    My all-time fave IWC.

  33. #33
    Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by TaketheCannoli View Post
    My all-time fave IWC.
    Thank you. I missed out when they were on general release back in 2017 and Iíve only ever seen one for sale here. Iíve seen UK dealers asking 4K for them. I paid significantly less than that. Donít want to make myself a hostage to fortune, but this one could be a keeper.

  34. #34
    Like many, I think IWC lost their way a bit in the early 2000's and there's nothing they make now apart from the Portugieser that takes my interest.

    I have one IWC that I was lucky enough to pick up from a forum member a good few years ago, IWC GST Chrono Rattrapante with the Rhodium dial; stunning when I first saw it and just as stunning now. It's one of those watches that have to be handled to appreciate its aesthetics, finishing and bracelet quality.

    I can't get the pictures to show on this post but the thread I posted, with pictures (somewhat excitedly) when I got it, is here:

    https://forum.tz-uk.com/showthread.p...t-wordy-quot-)

  35. #35
    Master
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    I thought it was just me but I agree.

    A lot of their pieces remind me of that old Orange County Chopper show where they build these crazy bikes but 99% from bought in parts.

    Compare it to say Zenith and they look to me overpriced and overrated (but I do like the XVIII Heritage...)

  36. #36
    Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by earlofsodbury View Post
    Interesting reading in this thread. No question, their products are appealing, I like them, but names like Dornbluth showing-up speak volumes - beautiful, well-made, interesting, more exclusive - and yet, more affordable too.

    It is something I've perhaps failed to properly grasp, that image counts for so very much, arguably more than actual content.




    Lol'd at Kevin Spacey appearing - that casting certainly hasn't stood the test of time! Some honest insight from Kern though.

    I do now better understand why I like the watches I do: content > image. Perhaps as much to do with age as anything mind.
    They all have merits but I disagree Dornbluth offer anything better when you consider this and the movement inside. Just to ad, I'm talking about pure watchmaking.

    I also like what Shubs wrote and it sums it up nicely for me:
    "I have a connection with aviation and when I decided to buy a pilot watch, I tried them all - visited Baselworld, toured around Germany looking at their brands (Tourby small pilot was my favourite of these) and tried on every one I could in other places. None matched the IWCs (up to Mark XVI), and so I just don't agree that there are equal quality watches from other brands that are far cheaper. It is fair to say that you can get 80-90% of the watch for less money, but that can be said of so many watches."



    Last edited by stix; 19th May 2021 at 13:02.

  37. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by AlwaysAlba View Post
    I have a Mark xvi and still love it after all these years. When I first saw it in the shop window in Newcastle, it was a bit of a love at first sight moment, it's pure simplicity was stunning. I couldn't get it out of my mind and so the purchase was completed a few months later.

    They are not cheap but the quality of finish is first rate and my wife always picks it out as the watch she would happily relieve me of.

    Oddly enough though, one IWC is enough for me, not really interested in getting a second one.
    Couldnít agree more with this. I got my Mark XVI 13 years duty free at Heathrow Airport (£1650!) and over the years I have had many positive comments, my wife loves it (and is very anti me selling it, which I have considered recently only to fund a bigger purchase, but really I want to keep it) has never been serviced and still runs brilliantly, and I canít name another IWC I would buy (looked at a lot of them recently)



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  38. #38
    Master
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    My one and only. Classic simplicity and legibility



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  39. #39
    Grand Master
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    I love the strap on that Gomers, what is it?

  40. #40
    It seems impervious to a Google search, but Jack Baruth made a good case for IWC in a good article a couple of years back...

  41. #41
    Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by JGJG View Post
    It seems impervious to a Google search, but Jack Baruth made a good case for IWC in a good article a couple of years back...
    This one?

    ē https://watchjournal.com/hours-minut...-years-of-iwc/

  42. #42
    Grand Master Daddelvirks's Avatar
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    It's rather expensive to have your name all around a football stadium, that money has to come back one way or another.....;)
    Got a new watch, divers watch it is, had to drown the bastard to get it!

  43. #43
    Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by verv View Post
    I love the strap on that Gomers, what is it?
    It's this one https://www.amazon.co.uk/Rios1931-Sa...=watch&sr=1-49

    It's Ok, looks great but not up to the standard of the JPM straps from Watch Obsession and Bulangs but not in the same price bracket either. The leather is a bit on the plasticky side and the buckle side is probably 10mm too long.

  44. #44
    Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gomers View Post
    It's this one https://www.amazon.co.uk/Rios1931-Sa...=watch&sr=1-49

    It's Ok, looks great but not up to the standard of the JPM straps from Watch Obsession and Bulangs but not in the same price bracket either. The leather is a bit on the plasticky side and the buckle side is probably 10mm too long.
    I bought a strap from this company and it was very nice quality for the money:

    ē https://www.finwatchstraps.com/colle...r-watch-straps

  45. #45
    Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by stix View Post
    I bought a strap from this company and it was very nice quality for the money:

    ē https://www.finwatchstraps.com/colle...r-watch-straps
    Like the look of those, might have to partake and seems to have knocked a quid off the sale items !

  46. #46
    Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gomers View Post
    Like the look of those, might have to partake and seems to have knocked a quid off the sale items !
    I'm fairly certain I bought this model but just tweaked the design i.e. stitching colour and width:

    ē https://www.finwatchstraps.com/colle...mm-25-mm-26-mm

  47. #47
    Ach, those great pics of the Mark XV & XVI really make me want one again now, but I'm meant to be saving for something else.

  48. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by stix View Post
    Yep 👍

  49. #49
    Journeyman dade.c's Avatar
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    I do like some IWC especially the Portofinos and the Pilots.

    I think common misconception is that they donít feel like value for money when compared to their RRP. Second hand are definitely more interesting and attainable.

    Remember trying on some Portugieser at WoS and ALMOST walked away with one. Great quality! Shame that for some models, you donít get an in-house movement, which is a bit of a shame given the price tag.


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  50. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by dade.c View Post
    Shame that for some models, you donít get an in-house movement, which is a bit of a shame given the price tag.
    Why?

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