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Thread: Homage - How far is too far?

  1. #51
    Master murkeywaters's Avatar
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    Some me interesting replies, my OP was in fact about what some have mentioned here, homages are absolutely fine in most cases and like I said I have owned some of the better watches based around a famous design.

    What I was getting at is that there is a trend of homage in recent times that is identical to the original watch bar the makers/company text, same polished center links, same colour, same bezel/font - everything!

    To me this is too far and brings homage and fake much closer together, this isn’t inspired design it’s just a blatant copy of the original in every way with a tiny name change on the dial to not infringe copyright.

  2. #52
    Grand Master Wallasey Runner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by murkeywaters View Post
    Some me interesting replies, my OP was in fact about what some have mentioned here, homages are absolutely fine in most cases and like I said I have owned some of the better watches based around a famous design.

    What I was getting at is that there is a trend of homage in recent times that is identical to the original watch bar the makers/company text, same polished center links, same colour, same bezel/font - everything!

    To me this is too far and brings homage and fake much closer together, this isn’t inspired design it’s just a blatant copy of the original in every way with a tiny name change on the dial to not infringe copyright.
    Bear in mind that in most cases, the Watch being copied simply isn't available if we are talking a whole host of Submariners, Kermit, Hulks etc etc. So if Rolex and the likes cannot be bothered to make their watches accessible to the masses then others will. As long as they put their own name on the dial then fine.

    As is usually the case, Rolex and the likes do have a habit of bringing these issues upon themselves.

  3. #53
    Master murkeywaters's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wallasey Runner View Post
    Bear in mind that in most cases, the Watch being copied simply isn't available if we are talking a whole host of Submariners, Kermit, Hulks etc etc. So if Rolex and the likes cannot be bothered to make their watches accessible to the masses then others will. As long as they put their own name on the dial then fine.

    As is usually the case, Rolex and the likes do have a habit of bringing these issues upon themselves.
    That just made me LOL!
    Sorry AD you can do one with your Daytona time of infinitium waiting list, I’ll not be spending £10k+ with you, instead I’ll buy an Invicta Speedway off Amazon for £55.00....... No!

  4. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by murkeywaters View Post
    That just made me LOL!
    Sorry AD you can do one with your Daytona time of infinitium waiting list, I’ll not be spending £10k+ with you, instead I’ll buy an Invicta Speedway off Amazon for £55.00....... No!
    Maybe so but not so long ago that was the dominant opinion on watch forums which is why micro brands were so popular. Companies like Timefactors, Zeno, Steinhart etc making good quality watches some of which homages of others at a fraction of the price. Interesting we are now laughing at the idea of not waiting like a mug for an overpriced watch and being treated like dirt for the privilege to do so.

  5. #55
    Grand Master snowman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by murkeywaters View Post
    That just made me LOL!
    Sorry AD you can do one with your Daytona time of infinitium waiting list, I’ll not be spending £10k+ with you, instead I’ll buy an Invicta Speedway off Amazon for £55.00....... No!
    And yet, you're worried about these watches looking too much like the originals/real things?

    If a homage/clomage/lookalike isn't worthy of choosing over the real thing in your view, what's your issue with them (provided they are NOT masquerading as the real thing, with the associated names and logos)?

    M
    Breitling Cosmonaute 809 - What's not to like?

  6. #56
    Master murkeywaters's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by snowman View Post
    And yet, you're worried about these watches looking too much like the originals/real things?

    If a homage/clomage/lookalike isn't worthy of choosing over the real thing in your view, what's your issue with them (provided they are NOT masquerading as the real thing, with the associated names and logos)?

    M
    Homage to me is tipping your hat to the original and being inspired by the original and using quality components, completely ripping it off to the finest detail bar the logo/text, using cheap movements and selling it cheap is too far, whats the difference if you bought an out and out fake and scratched the name off..

  7. #57
    Grand Master snowman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by murkeywaters View Post
    Homage to me is tipping your hat to the original and being inspired by the original and using quality components, completely ripping it off to the finest detail bar the logo/text, using cheap movements and selling it cheap is too far, whats the difference if you bought an out and out fake and scratched the name off..
    Errr - You're fooling yourself and no-one else in that case?

    Surely the problem with fakes is that they're passed off as something they're not (believably or otherwise).

    If you've scratched the name off a fake, it's not pretending to be a 'whatever'. No-one who knowingly buys a fake would do that - It'd defeat the object of them buying it!

    I suspect this is something that people will never agree on - Personally, I don't see the point in buying a Rolex Sub lookalike/homage, but many obviously do.

    I don't, though, aspire to a Rolex Sub - It's not a watch that particularly appeals to me, especially if it involves buying watches I don't want or paying crazily above RRP - so maybe I'm missing something?

    But where do YOU draw the line? Is it OK if it's 5% smaller or bigger in all dimensions? What if the bezel colour is different?

    Is, say, a Longines Hydroconquest a homage to a Rolex Submariner? Completely different or as good as a fake in your view?

    In mine, if it looks like a Rolex Sub (or a Seiko MM300), but doesn't say Rolex (or Seiko) on the dial then it's not trying to be anything but a lookalike - If the quality is as good as the original, well, you've got a bargain, if it's a cheap watch, well, what do you think you're paying more for?

    M
    Last edited by snowman; 29th April 2021 at 21:02.
    Breitling Cosmonaute 809 - What's not to like?

  8. #58
    Master murkeywaters's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by snowman View Post
    Errr - You're fooling yourself and no-one else in that case?

    Surely the problem with fakes is that they're passed off as something they're not (believably or otherwise).

    If you've scratched the name off a fake, it's not pretending to be a 'whatever'.

    I suspect this is something that people will never agree on - Personally, I don't see the point in buying a Rolex Sub lookalike/homage, but many obviously do.

    I don't, though, aspire to a Rolex Sub - It's not a watch that particularly appeals to me, especially if it involves buying watches I don't want or paying crazily above RRP - so maybe I'm missing something?

    But where do YOU draw the line? Is it OK if it's 5% smaller or bigger in all dimensions? What if the bezel colour is different?

    Is, say, a Longines Hydroconquest a homage to a Rolex Submariner? Completely different or as good as a fake in your view?

    In mine, if it looks like a Rolex Sub (or a Seiko MM300), but doesn't say Rolex (or Seiko) on the dial then it's not trying to be anything but a lookalike - If the quality is as good as the original, well, you've got a bargain, if it's a cheap watch, well, what do you think you're paying more for?

    M
    We obviously will not agree on clones and of course we don't have to, I was just talking about the rise in the last few years of the cheap exactalikes that specifically target the in-demand watches.

  9. #59
    Grand Master Wallasey Runner's Avatar
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    In demand - and not available.

    So paying £350 for a homage is a no no, but popping along to WF to buy the latest must have for double or even close to triple the list is fine.

    I think the homage boys have got it right.

  10. #60
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    A Longines Hydroconquest is in no way a homage to a Rolex Submariner. Longines have their own identity & heritage, and of course have been in business quite a bit longer than Rolex.


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  11. #61
    Master murkeywaters's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wallasey Runner View Post
    In demand - and not available.

    So paying £350 for a homage is a no no, but popping along to WF to buy the latest must have for double or even close to triple the list is fine.

    I think the homage boys have got it right.
    I agree with you about waiting lists or paying over RRP, its ridiculous and I wouldn't get involved in it, and I also would buy an exactalike to tide me over if I did like the in demand watches.

  12. #62
    Craftsman Caminos's Avatar
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    The discussion is more semantic that any other thing:
    Homage: Tissot banana centenary edition. Homage to one version done at the begining of 20 century
    Copy: authorized and unauthorized (most of them). Just a copy with another name
    Trolex: fake
    More or less...


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  13. #63
    Just bought this ...

    https://www.wmtwatches.com/product/c...may-27th-2021/

    Don’t think I can afford a big red 6263 anytime soon, but very excited to try this on


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  14. #64
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    The problem with homages being close to, but not exactly like, the original, is that someone will make it closer than you, with good reason.

    A vintage sub looks great because of the balance of the design.
    Steinhart make very nice watches that look a lot like a sub (like the Ocean 39), but are at the same time noticably different.
    And they look (to me at least) a lot less balanced as a result. The taper on the inner section of their mercedes hour hand is a perfect example.
    They have done this deliberately, to distance themselves from the original, or for some other reason.
    But it looks nothing like as good as the parallel-sided Rolex hands.
    Same with their crown guards. I do not like them at all.
    But the Steinhart is still clearly a Sub homage. Just not a very exact one.

    There is a law of diminishing returns here.
    We can't in any logical way say that the Steinhart is any "better" for being further from a Rolex than, say, an OceanX that uses much closer dimensions to the watch being homaged.
    At what point along the very grey scale from "inspired by" to "exact replica" do we go from thinking it's fine, to being outraged at the blatancy of the copy.
    This cannot a black and white argument.

    Which is why all homages are fine by me.
    Copies? no. But homages, fine.

    Dave

  15. #65
    Master Yorkshiremadmick's Avatar
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    Well I’ve owned for 10 years and then sold a Rolex bi metal Sub blue dial. But I’ve still got Rolex Milgauss & a Sea Dweller and an Invicta bi metal sub clone, logo was a Brietling logo.
    They fool the fools. That’s all.
    You buy what yo can afford and what you want!


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  16. #66
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    Fake: shitty watch with a stolen name.
    Homage: shitty watch with a stolen design.

    I can’t see any difference.

  17. #67
    Master sweets's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AlexL View Post
    Fake: shitty watch with a stolen name.
    Homage: shitty watch with a stolen design.

    I can’t see any difference.
    That's fine, but life is rarely as simple as cute one-liners would have us believe, and this is a situation where a little more comprehension is required.

  18. #68
    Grand Master magirus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AlexL View Post
    Fake: shitty watch with a stolen name.
    Homage: shitty watch with a stolen design.

    I can’t see any difference.
    Quote Originally Posted by sweets View Post
    That's fine, but life is rarely as simple as cute one-liners would have us believe, and this is a situation where a little more comprehension is required.
    Perhaps a little more decorum is also required, given where we are and who provides this free facility.
    F.T.F.A.

  19. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by magirus View Post
    Perhaps a little more decorum is also required, given where we are and who provides this free facility.
    Eddie is a sensible businessman and it's in his interest to know what people think. Sweeping the topic under the carpet is delusional.

  20. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by AlexL View Post
    Fake: shitty watch with a stolen name.
    Homage: shitty watch with a stolen design.

    I can’t see any difference.
    Define "sh***y watch" please. What does that actually mean?

  21. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by sweets View Post
    That's fine, but life is rarely as simple as cute one-liners would have us believe, and this is a situation where a little more comprehension is required.
    If you for whatever reason don’t want to spend money on a real watch just buy a honest Seiko - says one-liner.

  22. #72
    Grand Master snowman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AlexL View Post
    If you for whatever reason don’t want to spend money on a real watch just buy a honest Seiko - says one-liner.
    Don't let the door slam...

    M
    Breitling Cosmonaute 809 - What's not to like?

  23. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by AlexL View Post
    If you for whatever reason don’t want to spend money on a real watch just buy a honest Seiko - says one-liner.
    Please define "real watch"?
    Last edited by stix; 7th May 2021 at 14:41.

  24. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by Montello View Post
    Homage = fine
    Fake = bad

    That’s the bottom line isn’t it?
    Exactly. If it doesn't contravene copyright it's legal. If it's legal it's fine. If you don't like it don't buy it. If you like it and buy it that's fine. If you then want to sell it that's fine, too. I have never understood why anyone has a problem with homages, whether it's an Alpha 36mm 'explorer' (Got one), a Steinhart Pepsi GMT (Got one) or a Caterham '7' (haven't got one if those!).

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