From the article....Originally Posted by thegoat
"Essentially Horizon was a bomb. Fujitsu didn’t want it blowing up its organisation and the government didn’t want it to blow up the government. They realised if they could stop it from going off for long enough, they might be able to park it inside the homes and businesses of individual Subpostmasters. Once there, Fujitsu, the government and the Post Office could step back to a place of safety and watch it explode, blaming the Subpostmasters for setting it off through their own incompetence or criminal inclinations."
Seriously? More like a work of fiction IMO!
Best Regards - Peter
I'd hate to be with you when you're on your own.
The whole thing is a madness of a business plan besides (being imoral).
Would they eventually blame and sack every Postmasters just to justify the computer system?
It makes no sense.
But the sort of people who would do this injustice while calling others out falsely for stealing.......I just havent the words.
Is that woman going to be called to give evidence?
I don't think anyone at the CPS beyond a few lawyers could have been expected to know anything about it.
MPs contacted by their constituents should have known about it.
The clamouring for resignations/action by MPs who hadn't paid any notice to this whilst it was in the news and probably raised by their constituents for the past 10 years is simply deflection, now it is in the public eye, because they ignored the problem for so long or see an opportunity to score points.
This article mentions two women that fit the bill, but of PV it says: Ms Vennells said on Wednesday that she would be giving evidence to the public inquiry “in the coming months”. Presumably she will be called during phase 5 'Governance' if not for phase 4...see Timeline.
Of Gareth Edwards, a senior computer engineer at Fujitsu, the article says:
...He had been scheduled to give evidence to the inquiry twice. But on each occasion it was postponed, including in November last year, when the Post Office disclosed 3,045 documents on the evening before he was due to give evidence.
Mr Jenkins will now not face the inquiry until the coming spring at the earliest.
He has also demanded immunity before appearing before the inquiry, meaning his evidence could not be used against him in any possible prosecution...
How can these people not be prosecuted
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-67884743
Because being a lying scumbag is not a criminal offence?
And...it takes money and a lot of commitment to sue them in cases like this.
For those reasons I won't be holding my breath, but...
This, sadly.
The Postmaster from my local office where I previously lived was dragged into this and prosecuted - lost his livelihood, reputation and heath.
When you look long into an abyss, the abyss looks long into you.........
But perjury and perverting the course of justice are.
As for the tactics used towards the BBC, in terms of threats of civil action, the post office in-house lawyers are already on thin ice and almost certain to be facing justified complaints to the SRA from other complainants. If their interactions with the BBC provide grounds for further complaints to their regulator, hopefully those will be forthcoming.
[QUOTE=draftsmann;6335538]But perjury and perverting the course of justice are.
Perhaps this is something the head of the CPS could direct some resources at? ]
Ian Hislop still on the ball/boil....................
Saw that yesterday - love it when Hislop goes into one!
When you look long into an abyss, the abyss looks long into you.........
Hislop is absolute quality and I say that as a subscriber to Private Eye.
Cheers,
Neil.
I've been saying this for years - Surely there is a case to investigate (properly!) that senior people at the PO and Fujshitsu knew that the problem was with the computer system while still prosecuting people.
That, as I understand it, is perverting the course of justice.
M
Breitling Cosmonaute 809 - What's not to like?
You may well be correct reading this.
https://www.criminaldefencebarrister...f-justice.aspx
Publishing things to try to prejudice a fair trial
The Press and members of the public should be careful what is written about Court proceedings, especially online. The publication of matters that are intended to prejudice the trial of a case at Court can be an offence of perverting the course of public justice: R. v. Fisher (1811). Although this is an old case the implications for those posting on popular social media are relevant today and such postings attach as much liability are that in traditional print media. The fact that matters may be published under a pseudonym will often not prevent detection and arrest.
Making false allegations/retracting truthful allegations
This is of course includes trying to get a person in trouble with the police, arrested or charged falsely with any crime: Macdaniel’s case (1755) and R. v. Rispal (1762).
In respect of intent, it is enough that the accuser intended that the false allegation should be taken seriously by the police; the prosecution do not need to prove an intention that anybody should actually be arrested. It therefore logically follows that the ‘course of justice’ includes criminal investigation; therefore, to expose to the mere risk of criminal proceedings can be enough is to prejudice the course of public justice. In more minor cases it is possible to argue that where a false allegation is of a generalised nature and there is no risk beyond a theoretical risk, the prosecution should accept pleas to a charge of wasting police time, contrary to section 5(2) of the Criminal Law Act 1967
Postman Prick has been very quiet recently
Don't just do something, sit there. - TNH
BBC carries the story that bonuses to management may have been dubious along with some dodgy accounting and there could be a £100 million fine
And despite the warnings, we have this as well https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-67944525
How did they get away with that?
I think there are a lot of people in the Post Office, Fujitsu and the Government who should be very worried now.
The wheels of justice grind slow (very slow in this appalling case), but they grind exceeding fine.
Now that the whole shoddy mess is finally being exposed in all its hideous glory, there will almost certainly have to be some who are eventually held accountable. And if not in a court of law, then in the court of public opinion.
They are now so toxic they are essentially finished professionally at least.
So clever my foot fell off.
Was thinking the same myself, but it seems Mick hasn’t posted anywhere on TZ for quite some time. Hope he’s all right.
Best Regards - Peter
I'd hate to be with you when you're on your own.
Yes indeed. I believe his wife had some health problems over the last year- do hope all is well there.
In the Sotadic Zone, apparently.
I’ve been watching it it’s sickening the way the mp s are coming to the rescue after not giving a shit for 20 years there seem to be a lot of people who should be facing jail and the legal system really needs to be reformed as to the way it seems to be weighted towards big business/money v the ordinary uk citizen
Indeed - and rather cynically some seem to be seeing the fact most of the MPs at the time have retired that it can be used as a distraction from the messes they are currently presiding over such as PPE, GPs etc.
Targeting Ed Dave one of 20 Ministers for the PO during the time of the scandal was particularly cheap.
I´m wondering when the TV dramatizations of the Pandemic response in all it´s gory and the Only Upsides Brexit rigmarole are to be screened...clearly as the response to this crime has shown the public are not entirely apathetic to corruption, incompetence and malignancy, they just need a little help with details and context, understandable given they´re busy, stretched just earning a living, bills etc.
Hoping Mick´s alright too, maybe he´s just taking a break.
Last edited by Passenger; 13th January 2024 at 13:35.
Try to move on old chap, perhaps try a few lowball offers in Sales Corner to take your mind off things for a while.
Started out with nothing. Still have most of it left.
Oh I moved on a while ago in just about the only way that really counts...geographically...I like current affairs in the way others enjoy spectating and chat about F1, Footy and Strictly.
That avenue, attempts at ´luxe´ watch purchase is mostly closed, no return to Hermit Kingdom for me not in the near future thus the postage- fees big issue and last week we invested a wee chunk in an old folks home development in the USA, short term, 20 percent roi in 24 months, nice, simple, happy.
Last edited by Passenger; 13th January 2024 at 14:36.
Further to:
There is more on this point on that site but too much to list here. I take my hat of to the Inquiry team keeping track of all of it and Sir Wyn Williams who, together with his four assessors, has to make sense of it all and detail his conclusions.
A deeply corrupt Government I guess
https://voxpoliticalonline.com/2024/...officescandal/
Wheels within wheels.
It is what it is - corruption resulting from a massive conflict of interest.
So clever my foot fell off.
What happened to the Horizon system? Was it replaced? Is it still in place? Did they fix the bugs?
"I forget who it was that recommended men for their soul's good to do each day two things they disliked ... it is a precept that I have followed scrupulously; for every day I have got up and I have gone to bed."
According to the Post Office....
"Is Horizon still being used?
Yes. There have been several versions of Horizon since its introduction in 1999 and the current version of the system, introduced from 2017, was found in the group litigation to be robust, relative to comparable systems. But we are not complacent about that and are continuing to work, together with our postmasters, to make improvements.
We will be moving away from Horizon to a new IT cloud-based system that will be more user-friendly and easier to adapt for new products and services. This is currently being developed with the involvement of our Postmasters."
https://corporate.postoffice.co.uk/e...2c2836e77b8e40
Best Regards - Peter
I'd hate to be with you when you're on your own.
Fujitsu is appearing before the Business and Trade Select Committee today.
Pity Darren Jones isn't the chairman anymore, thought he was an impressive inquisitor.
Johnathan Gullis is a committee member. Eeeek!
Its a Robust system (whatever that means) much like our non existent Army/military is a force to be reckoned with.
Thanks.
"I forget who it was that recommended men for their soul's good to do each day two things they disliked ... it is a precept that I have followed scrupulously; for every day I have got up and I have gone to bed."
I am not sure how many of you have seen this clip of the Fujitsu chap
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-67985206
I was shocked at how candid and apologetic he was about the whole thing, which made such a refreshing change in relation to everything else we seem to have heard so far from the PO side of events.
His PR team have advised him well. They are bang to rights and he personally wasn't involved at the time so with this approach will come across well to the public. Let's him move past this and still get another job elsewhere without being tainted by the scandal.
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Agreed. As a corporate entity they’ve got ahead of everything in one go and can join the call to bring the culpable individuals to justice. I do wonder how high the detail went at the time. Most big SIs would have seriously senior oversight on a programme like this. I expect some finger pointing as it plays out.
That is a refreshing change
Mr.Fujitsu answered question without hesitation,stalling or beating around the bush.
He told it as it was and admitted company fault.
Mr Post Office (in charge 4 years) wouldnt give a straight answer or admit company responsibilty (to the degree he should at least).
I wonder if the penny has dropped with Fujitsu that the real prize is to continue being eligible for public sector oursourcing work. I can't help thinking that their architect, Mr Jenkins, is currently crapping himself.
In the Sotadic Zone, apparently.
Precisely this. They will gain little or nothing from trying to deflect culpability, so their best bet is to face it and be seen as genuine, reasonable and trustworthy enough to be awarded more contracts. Falling out with the Government is not in their interests at all.
So clever my foot fell off.
I hadnt thought of that and the bigger picture,he did seem genuine though.
How much money and resources have they spent- coming up with that strategy? Sure as hell ain't off the cuff or sincere
All designed to uphold their image and not get excluded from future contracts.
Still careful with their words about the 'nature' of their input to the prosecutions. "used our data" rather than "we bolstered their case with suitable data"
Excluding a company from bidding for a government contract is probably not as straightforward as you think it should be because of the OJEU Public Contracts Regulations.
Ps. According to the FT apparently tried before.
…. was ultimately unsuccessful after government lawyers advised that it would not be legally possible to discriminate against companies based on their past performance, the officials said……Fujitsu sued the government for£700 million some years ago and have still received £billions in contacts since then.
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Last edited by BillyCasper; 16th January 2024 at 20:25.
I thought, post Brexit, that OJEU regs no longer apply.
OJEU was/(maybe still is) just a familiar name for public contract regulations and processes.
The EU directives were written in to British law years ago as the Public and Utilities Contracts Regulations.
Generally, there hasn’t been a bonfire of EU regulations and directives. They were retained post Brexit. Even if Britain started again, I doubt they’d be much difference.
With respect to the public procurement regulations, I don’t think much has changed. I don’t think that thresholds are set by the EU anymore and British contract opportunities aren’t published in the EU Official Journal.
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The second guy on this morning seems to have major amnesia problems, he doesn't seem able to remember anything or it was somebody else not him!
Best Regards - Peter
I'd hate to be with you when you're on your own.
Seems to be a recent tactic which is becoming very popular for those under scrutiny.
When you look long into an abyss, the abyss looks long into you.........
He must have been watching rishi and Boris at the covid enquiry and decided its a good way to go
Indeed.
When challenged with copies of e-mails he had written he said he could not remember writing it or why he wrote it.
Unbelievable.
When you look long into an abyss, the abyss looks long into you.........
He was a very bad advert for Fujitsu, a manager who admitted he didn't understand what his team were doing and what they gave him, but signed those things off as the 'responsible person' anyway!
So full of the 'I Can't Remember' that when he was asked if he thought an item that was being discussed, with supporting documentation, should have been escalated his response was "I can't remember" and the interviewer had to remind him he wasn't being asked to remember something only to say, in light of the known information' did he think it should have been escalated.
At one point an email was produced where he described a particular postmaster as a "nasty piece of work"!
He was completely taken apart at the end by the interviewer.
How do people like that get management jobs?
Last edited by Griswold; 18th January 2024 at 17:23.
Best Regards - Peter
I'd hate to be with you when you're on your own.
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