ICYMI:
...Dennis Hammond had been a village post office operator for 20 years when he was blamed for a cash shortfall of about £3,000 soon after the Horizon system was installed. The money was subsequently deducted from his wages.
“He told me that the auditor, who was usually very friendly, had paid a visit which wasn’t friendly at all and that some money was missing, then he never spoke of it again,” said Hammond. “All these years I assumed that there must have been some mistake that was then put right.
“I was a sub-postmistress myself in a neighbouring village at the time and had complete trust in the Post Office. It wasn’t until 2021, when I read of the fate of other postmasters, that I realised that he must have been a victim of Horizon too. By then he was dead and it was too late to help him.”
Hammond contacted the Horizon shortfall scheme, launched to compensate affected postal operators in 2021, in an attempt to vindicate her husband, and was told she was out of time. The scheme had closed to new applicants six months after opening during the first lockdown in 2020. “We were never informed of a compensation scheme for those who paid what was demanded without being convicted,” she said. “As my husband was dying of cancer in 2020, my attention was elsewhere.”...
You know exactly what was meant, being banned twice before under different usernames yet still skating on thin ice seems to be something you cannot help yourself doing?.Originally Posted by bwest76
As Neil said, it's dead easy - put this type of stuff into the BP, simples.
When you look long into an abyss, the abyss looks long into you.........
I am going to start watching Mr Bates vs The Post Office tonight.
So clever my foot fell off.
Save yourself the stress. I’m 20 mins in and raging.
Worth seeing through - it is appalling how the whole thing was dealt with.
When you look long into an abyss, the abyss looks long into you.........
I am astounded. I’d seen it in the press over the news, but compounded into a short 50mins of WTAF was a whole new level of disgrace.
That's good advice. It will do nothing for the blood pressure, but then again heightened BP is a small price to pay to appreciate what these poor people went through.
Just finished the first episode.
It is effing horrifying already.
I'm now going to watch episode 2.
So clever my foot fell off.
I hope that you don't have to get up early. It was hard to sleep after watching all four episodes in a row.
File on 4 on BBC Sounds is a tough listen as well.
We watched all four episodes in an evening.
The feeling of helplessness that they felt was palpable.
Started out with nothing. Still have most of it left.
In reality what would happen now is that another software company would take over the systems, transfer the staff to go with it and carry on. This happened at least twice to major DWP contracts.
I've just completed all four episodes in one evening.
It's going to take me a little time to process it.
My immediate feelings are of outrage and horror at the behaviour of The Post Office, Fujitsu, and a deep anger at how the Government has cravenly failed to really address this until a TV Drama rightly incensed the electorate.
At the very least, Alan Bates should be given a CBE immediately. It would be fitting as Paula Vennels is rightly losing hers.
And I truly hope that the MET finds some actual balls, albeit so late in the day, to initiate prosecutions so that some of those who knowingly inflicted such misery on so many get a taste of how it feels.
The final graphic is burned into my mind - 236 people wrongly sent to prison. My God.
So clever my foot fell off.
I couldn't agree with this comment more. In this day and age, who really cares about an OBE/MBE/CBE anyway, they're passed around like Christmas crackers. I always thought that they were supposed to be for little known members of the public who had gone above and beyond in their contribution to this country. I digress.
Paula Vennells and her will she/won't she/should she give back her CBE is a distraction and nothing more. What the Post Office management - and I reiterate - management did, in whole or part, is a disgrace. On the face of it, I don't see the software being the culprit, it's another elephant in the room. It didn't work, software often doesn't. What happened afterward is where the problem lies. I'm going to take a complete guess and say that a stupidly expensive software system was installed and didn't work. Another guess - those who created the software and managed it didn't have a clue what was causing the problem. Another guess - it's installed now, it can't be withdrawn, they don't have any other avenues of approach. Try and hide the problems and if anyone attempts to whistleblow, destroy their credibility. This isn't new, look through the news of the last few decades and you'll see similar examples, even films and documentaries made.
What should happen now is that both sides of the House of Commons should step in and sort it out. It still seems to me as though a lot of MP's are still tip toeing around it which makes me wonder - how many of them knew about it on a grander scale than they're claiming. Some of the MP's have been extremely pro-active but before the dramatisation, how many of us really knew about it? Another question - why have the media been so quiet about it before the tv drama, it's a huge story but again, how many of us had read or heard much about it through media channels?
Bear in mind that there was a recent case where someone being compensated for wrongful imprisonment was going to have the cost of their prison meals deducted from their compensation!
10 years and they done nothing about it, probably hoping it would go away. Who could imagine a tv programme watched by millions though.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-67926583
Just binge watched the show too.
What a sad state of affairs. Did read about it over the years, but the show really does bring it home.
Apalling conduct by post office management,makes me not want to use post office services to be honest.
A shock to me, was learning that the post office can privately prosecute, all the way to court. Doesn't sound right at all and possibly a big contributer to the suffering caused over the years.
Anyone interested in reading and hearing from some of the actual subpostmasters, see below:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-56859357
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-50741916
Edit:
The real select committee (Zahawi and Vennells):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lRqhCYDDCKk
Last edited by Boss13; 10th January 2024 at 08:12.
I’m struggling to understand why the Government, as the sole owner of Royal Mail and The Post Office, hasn’t stepped in and been more proactive to resolve this long before now.
So clever my foot fell off.
There is one more episode, Mr Bates vs the Post Office: The Real Story (or something similar) which should help you process your feelings.
Listening to some idiot lawyer on LBC this morning, saying that the government can't just step in and overturn all of the convictions as this would undermine the legal process, my interpretation of that was he means the lawyers can't exploit it for every penny they can and make fortunes out of it.
In terms of numbers, and accepting the circumstances were very different, the closest comparison I can think of was the 300 or so British men shot by firing squads for cowardice or desertion in WW1. It only took the government 90 years to issue posthumous pardons, which did not actually quash the convictions.
The separation of powers from the judiciary and the Executive is not idiotic.
This extremely sorry state of affairs shows how utterly rotten this country is. An ineffective, outdated parliament, corrupt big business, access to the law for only those who can afford it, a crumbling justice system and other public services.
David
Infinite Diversity in Infinite Combinations
You're kidding surely, you aren't daft.
dkpw nails it.
I suspect that there was an over-arching view that this was a 'crimes against the state' situation which was pursued blindly to a preconceived end point. It is a travesty that it takes a TV drama to ignite enough emotion to get traction on the situation.
When you look long into an abyss, the abyss looks long into you.........
GE coming up as well, timing always a force multiplier.
Celebrity/ publicity, money and or political connection/ influence those're the 'currencies' that really count, buy justice and fairness, we are where we are.
Last edited by Passenger; 10th January 2024 at 10:21.
Indeed. And as we all know, a perceived crime against the state will almost always trump a perceived crime against a private person.
Surely the judiciary are complicit in this, why did the courts keep allowing the prosecutions to proceed, hindsight is a wonderful thing maybe no one was in a position to put two and two together
The decision to proceed to trial (or not) is made by the Crown Prosecution Service.
When you look long into an abyss, the abyss looks long into you.........
Yeah that really was beyond the pale, tyrannical unjust state approach, should've never even been voiced/ considered, not in a decent, fair country.
Last edited by Passenger; 10th January 2024 at 11:00.
Correct, add the police into that mix as I found out to my cost (and health) last year.
That Moaning woman must be happy its taken the glare of her.
My understanding is that the CPS can take over- and thence if it thinks fit drop- a private prosecution; but otherwise the private prosecution continues as such.
Anyone thinking it would be good to abolish private prosecutions in the wake of this debacle- be careful what you wish for. The system does have checks and balances, as per my last paragraph, if only they are used.
I thought I had read that the CPS were not involved and the post office carried out the prosecution's directly
I am sure I read that Alan Bates had been offered an OBE but turned it down as a result of PV's CBE.
How stand the Postmasters/mistresses that paid in thousands out of their own money to balance the books but were never on the PO radar?
How are they ever going to prove what they did, or the amounts involved? By the very nature of the so-called discrepancy, it will just look as though there was never a problem with their account.
I very much doubt that Horizon had a " please enter the amount you are paying out of your own savings to make it look as though there isn't a shortfall" box.
Yes, as reported in Computer Weekly. (Somewhat coincidentally exactly a year ago.)
I noticed PV was/is a woman of the cloth, how does this sit with her congregation I wonder.
And with the Church too?
Best Regards - Peter
I'd hate to be with you when you're on your own.
Haven’t seen the show, not sure if I’ll watch it, as it will boil my piss…Can’t remember if I read on here yesterday or heard a comment on radio, but the ineptitude and brazen ignorance of government/senior operators is mind boggling. Or in reality, not.
If there was 1, or maybe 2 discrepancies, one might think someone’s on the take, but when you get 2,3,400,500 complaints, flagging up issues, at what point fo they not think actually somethings amiss here. 🤯
But no, let’s not look into chat, let’s chase money and make these poor peoples lives utter, utter hell, and utter utter disgrace.
Given that she was, apparently, shortlisted for the vacant Bishop of London position, heaven only knows...
In the Sotadic Zone, apparently.
I'm surprised there hasn't been any PO whistle blowers yet if only to try and cover there own rears.
Now calls for her £3m package of bonuses and departure handshake to be chased. She is hiding behind the old "it would be inappropriate to comment while there was an ongoing investigation................." bullsh1t.
I've followed the story for a few years - but also will not be watching the latest docudrama, as it will just elevate my blood pressure.
The government have just announced they will overturn all convictions and compensate .
Election year....................
I've not watched the show as yet, maybe I should protect my heart? The message I am receiving is back in the day a decade or more ago, the decision was taken by the PO to protect the brand at all costs. They were willing to inflict collateral damage as to their employees which is unforgivable. Thoroughly shocking behaviour, but probably what many organisations have done in the past. There seems to be a blinkered view going on at Boeing at the moment as well. I hope now that Sunak has finally found his balls, that some justice and renumeration can take place.
When & in full?......but when is the questionable of the 2.
Close ranks and lie thru your teeth until it becomes clear the truth was never told.
And then and only then if the Government have any involvement.
We are deadly serious and will be looking into it very closely........yeah as they always do!.
That's correct in England and Wales. Unfortunately in Scotland, it was more complicated as the Post Office prosecutions were conducted through the Procurator Fiscal's office.
David
Infinite Diversity in Infinite Combinations
I understood the PO was the “victim”, investigator and prosecutor in the cases.
It really does beggar belief when it is written as simply as that!
And yet they still had to be extensively publicly shamed before they were crowbarred into any kind of action...
The DGAF is strong with these arrogant chancers.
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