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Thread: CWC quartz pricing: A challenge.

  1. #1
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    CWC quartz pricing: A challenge.

    A recurring theme I've noted over 5 or so years reading here is occasional, but repetitive, posts including statements along the lines of

    "CWC dive watch pricing is insane - I wouldn't pay that for a quartz watch"

    Which, given the pricing of other Swiss 300m dive watches, leaves me slightly bemused.🤔

    So, here's my idle short-essay challenge for anyone so inclined:

    With reference to Omega 2264.50 pricing, explain the statement "CWC dive watch pricing is insane - I wouldn't pay that for a quartz watch".


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    Quote Originally Posted by Brauner Hund View Post
    A recurring theme I've noted over 5 or so years reading here is occasional, but repetitive, posts including statements along the lines of

    "CWC dive watch pricing is insane - I wouldn't pay that for a quartz watch"

    Which, given the pricing of other Swiss 300m dive watches, leaves me slightly bemused.樂

    So, here's my idle short-essay challenge for anyone so inclined:

    With reference to Omega 2264.50 pricing, explain the statement "CWC dive watch pricing is insane - I wouldn't pay that for a quartz watch".

    I've written that over my 1st morning coffee... rather over bluntly worded...and no smileys, so please read it as though I typed it with a smile on my face and a skip in my step and scattered it with smileys :)

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    The price of some Grand Seiko must blow their mind!
    On a serious note The Omega you highlight is a good example, they obviously share the same design language and a common history, the quartz version will even have a similar if not identical movement (bar a nice little Omega symbol) yet one is seen as good value the other over priced.
    I guess image is more valuable than that sum of parts!

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    I guess part of it is the halo effect. Omega is a premium brand with prices running into the many tens of thousands, these halo watches lift the perception of the watches below it. Omega quartz divers benefit from this and are lifted in status and cost.

    With CWC, when your top-end watch is a quartz diver... well, it doesn't matter how good it is, it's always going to be a low-end quartz diver, two a penny.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Papa Hotel View Post
    I guess part of it is the halo effect. Omega is a premium brand with prices running into the many tens of thousands, these halo watches lift the perception of the watches below it. Omega quartz divers benefit from this and are lifted in status and cost.
    Yup good point.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sinnlover View Post
    The Omega you highlight is a good example, they obviously share the same design language and a common history, the quartz version will even have a similar if not identical movement (bar a nice little Omega symbol) yet one is seen as good value the other over priced.
    100%.

    I certainly need another coffee, but I'm always struck by the logic disconnect to the price derision.
    I do buy the point on halo effect. It'll be interesting to see if any other reasonable explanations materialise.

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    I bought a second hand CWC SBS earlier this week. I think it's a well made watch, great design, wears well and fantastic heritage. I'm not sure on the price. For what I paid I could have picked up a used Tag Heuer from sales corner. Design and heritage are such an important part of why we buy a watch and it's very hard to detangle that from the actual value (material, movement, workmanship) of the watch.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gerrudd View Post
    I bought a second hand CWC SBS earlier this week. I think it's a well made watch, great design, wears well and fantastic heritage. I'm not sure on the price. For what I paid I could have picked up a used Tag Heuer from sales corner. Design and heritage are such an important part of why we buy a watch and it's very hard to detangle that from the actual value (material, movement, workmanship) of the watch.
    Well, that's sort of my point; in actual value, two dive watches made in Switzerland with broadly identical components, why do you feel the Tag had greater value? (Funnily, to my mind, Tag is the poor man's Omega... which is a silly notion too, I guess it all comes back to marketing!)

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    The Tag, mainly on brand awareness. For example wife knows who Tag are, never heard of CWC. I prefer the CWC design to the Tag, hence I bought it instead. That said, I didn't love it enough to purchase it new.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gerrudd View Post
    The Tag, mainly on brand awareness. For example wife knows who Tag are, never heard of CWC. I prefer the CWC design to the Tag, hence I bought it instead. That said, I didn't love it enough to purchase it new.
    Yup. (Oddly, in my back-to-front brain, that makes the CWC cooler 😂😊 - sort of, a watch for 'those who know' !)

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    How much does the movement cost?

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    Quote Originally Posted by dukeskd View Post
    How much does the movement cost?
    A replacement ETA quartz movement for the CWC diver is between $40 and $50.

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    I can put a few points together as to why the CWC is not necessarily seen (by me and a few others) to be good value.


    • CWC's pricing problem is CWC's old prices. They used to be cheap. Quite recently.
    • They became relatively expensive is a very short timeframe, and many that observed CWC before and after that timeframe prefer the cheaper prices, because the watches did not change whilst the prices did.
    • And they should be cheap, it was an MoD-designed dial and handset in a Monnin-designed case. CWC designed nothing about it.
    • CWC do not really advertise, sponsor people or sport, or even maintain a dealer network, so they keep the distribution costs down, and the fact that it was/is issued does all their advertising for them.
    • This was all true before, during and after the price transformation.
    • CWC simply saw issued military prices on the rise, and jumped on the bandwagon.
    • At the same time, Eddie sold very similar watches (with the same specification) for the price we were used to, and (I think) still plans to re-issue the PRS-3 in the future, with a stated target price "less than £200", in line with CWC's old prices.
    • Unlike CWC, Eddie would also be charging the same for most of the range, CWC inexplicably charges hefty (50%????) premiums for specific, almost identical models in the range, compared to others.


    So for me, the CWC is much more a watch for those those that knew, not those that know.

    And whilst I also see that Omega as expensive, I also see that Omega are in the polar opposite situation than CWC for almost all of the points above.

    I am not saying the CWC is a bad watch, it isn't. It is a great design with some history, won because it fulfilled a contract at a price point.
    There are many that would be able to fulfill that contract for considerably less than the prices CWC now sharge.

    Hope that helps
    Dave

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    Quote Originally Posted by Redcoat View Post
    A replacement ETA quartz movement for the CWC diver is between $40 and $50.
    That is if you're a consumer and not a manufacturer right?

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    Quote Originally Posted by dukeskd View Post
    That is if you're a consumer and not a manufacturer right?
    It's rather a facile point, what movt do many Tudors use?

    What's in 2254 and 2264 Omega's? 😂

    ....and if such high quality Swiss movts can be made so cheaply, does that not give you pause to think about the value of other mass-produced, say, Rolex movts being charged at such an insane premium?

    Rather double edged as a piece of reasoning?

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    Quote Originally Posted by sweets View Post
    I can put a few points together as to why the CWC is not necessarily seen (by me and a few others) to be good value.


    • CWC's pricing problem is CWC's old prices. They used to be cheap. Quite recently.
    • They became relatively expensive is a very short timeframe, and many that observed CWC before and after that timeframe prefer the cheaper prices, because the watches did not change whilst the prices did.
    • And they should be cheap, it was an MoD-designed dial and handset in a Monnin-designed case. CWC designed nothing about it.
    • CWC do not really advertise, sponsor people or sport, or even maintain a dealer network, so they keep the distribution costs down, and the fact that it was/is issued does all their advertising for them.
    • This was all true before, during and after the price transformation.
    • CWC simply saw issued military prices on the rise, and jumped on the bandwagon.
    • At the same time, Eddie sold very similar watches (with the same specification) for the price we were used to, and (I think) still plans to re-issue the PRS-3 in the future, with a stated target price "less than £200", in line with CWC's old prices.
    • Unlike CWC, Eddie would also be charging the same for most of the range, CWC inexplicably charges hefty (50%????) premiums for specific, almost identical models in the range, compared to others.


    So for me, the CWC is much more a watch for those those that knew, not those that know.

    And whilst I also see that Omega as expensive, I also see that Omega are in the polar opposite situation than CWC for almost all of the points above.

    I am not saying the CWC is a bad watch, it isn't. It is a great design with some history, won because it fulfilled a contract at a price point.
    There are many that would be able to fulfill that contract for considerably less than the prices CWC now sharge.

    Hope that helps
    Dave

    Interesting points* - I'm aware there was a price increase a while back, but I still read people comparing prices way back with prices now. Three points on that:

    1.** Charity or business?* The price hike gripe plays out in my mind as something between the politics of jealousy - the UK mindset that runs a key down the side of an expensive car - and the* British predilection for wanting something for nothing. Presumably, we're happy that CWC is a London-based income generating business with salaried employees, that supplies Swiss-manufactured watches, rather than an altruistic charity? My very, very limited experience of business is that people are in it to make money? I would be. If my items were on sale below market value I'd be a fool if I didn't correct that.

    2.* Inflation.* Most of the 'they used to be cheap' comparisons seem to wilfully ignore the time interval (years) between their quoted prices.** My first 16710 cost me £1038.*

    3.* Military replacement cost and 'they should be cheap'.* The first G10 I lost saw me billed £17. I understood then, and I understand now, that that wasn't the price the MOD paid for the watch. ...and as a further example how that value bears no relation to anything:* about 15 years ago, two identical bog-standard screwdrivers; a few quid at Halfords were approx £12 on a light gun CES and £250 on a rapier CES....and both from the same supplier. As the Americans would say: go figure.

    😊

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    (I have no idea why asterisks appear in my posts here!)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Brauner Hund View Post
    Interesting points* - I'm aware there was a price increase a while back, but I still read people comparing prices way back with prices now. Three points on that:

    1.** Charity or business?* The price hike gripe plays out in my mind as something between the politics of jealousy - the UK mindset that runs a key down the side of an expensive car - and the* British predilection for wanting something for nothing. Presumably, we're happy that CWC is a London-based income generating business with salaried employees, that supplies Swiss-manufactured watches, rather than an altruistic charity? My very, very limited experience of business is that people are in it to make money? I would be. If my items were on sale below market value I'd be a fool if I didn't correct that.

    2.* Inflation.* Most of the 'they used to be cheap' comparisons seem to wilfully ignore the time interval (years) between their quoted prices.** My first 16710 cost me £1038.*

    3.* Military replacement cost and 'they should be cheap'.* The first G10 I lost saw me billed £17. I understood then, and I understand now, that that wasn't the price the MOD paid for the watch. ...and as a further example how that value bears no relation to anything:* about 15 years ago, two identical bog-standard screwdrivers; a few quid at Halfords were approx £12 on a light gun CES and £250 on a rapier CES....and both from the same supplier. As the Americans would say: go figure.

    I have, at your request, provided some degree of justification for the point of view that CWC watches are overpriced.
    Please do not then try and then pin jelousy or other lower motives on me.
    Nobody likes being taken for a ride, and as I pointed out before, other companies are able to produce a CWC-type dive watch of equal specification for substanitally less than CWC (whilst still making a business of it). Just like CWC used to, along with everyone else that used the same Monnin-derived cases.
    Inflation has very little bearing on a 300% price hike during a period when RPI has never been over 5% pa.
    That would take over 20 years to achieve, not the 2+ years that the rise happened over.
    And none of that explains why CWC insist on charging hundreds more for certain examples of an identical specification.
    It is clearly not a cost plus pricing model, but more of "what can we get away with?" model that CWC adopts.
    As I say, I have no problem with that, they can do what they like, but it doesn't make their dive watches (and especially their LEs) good value. They aren't.
    You have, in this thread, provided what you believe to be a justification why CWC divers are good value. I hold the opposite view and have tried to explain that.

    I know that military replacement costs charged to servicepersons that lose them are silly cheap (I think I recall Tony Groom was charged £47 for losing a Rolex Milsub when an RN clearance dover), but that is not the point at issue here.

    Dave

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    I think the key philosophical difference at play here is what you describe as "what can we get away with?" is what I think many businesses would describe as selling at market value - ie, things are worth what people are willing to pay..

    (Obviously, that applies to everything, not just watches.).

    I'm afraid I do read an element of sour grapes into anyone playing that nuanced difference. It reads a bit 'but it's not fair!' to my eye. We'll have to agree to disagree😊

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    Quote Originally Posted by sweets View Post
    Iother companies are able to produce a CWC-type dive watch of equal specification for substanitally less than CWC (whilst still making a business of it). Just like CWC used to, along with everyone else that used the same Monnin-derived cases.
    Afterthought. Genuine questions:

    I'm puzzled, why do you feel that being a monnin-style case has a bearing on the cost? You seem to be saying that feature makes a watch cheaper - or have I misunderstood?

    Please would you signpost other brands delivering Swiss made 300m dive watches more cheaply - they'd be worth a look!

    Thanks!

  21. #21
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    I own an Omega Seamaster Quartz 2264, and a very nice watch it is, with excellent lume on the dial, lovely shiny beveled and well lumed sword hands (great for day and night visibility) a domed sapphire crystal with internal anti reflective coating, and the same quality of case finish as a Speedmaster. It also has a very handy quickset hour hand, and a date, and came with a very comfy bracelet.

    Back in the 1980s I was an RN Navigator and Diver Officer and had an issued CWC Diver, with the lumed bezel, in 1985, when they replaced the Rolex models I never managed to get my hands on. I used it in the water but found it less useful for navigation, where I needed to know the date multiple times a day. It was also a very nice watch and I'm very tempted to get another, but:
    • The lume is stellar, but the hands have white rather than polished bevels, which aren't as attractive or as legible in low light.
    • The case is not quite as well-made.
    • It lacks a bracelet.
    • There's no quickset hour hand, nor any date on the RN models.
    • It doesn't have a domed sapphire crystal with ARC.
    • It doesn't have the brand cachet of Omega.


    If I were still an RN Navigator and Diving Officer, I'd probably use my Omega rather than the issued CWC, especially since the quickset hour hand is useful when crossing time zones which happens regularly on ocean passages.

    The only advantage the CWC offers is the lumed bezel on the 1983 remakes, which is sadly not generally available on regular models. And the price of those remake models is such that I've not yet bought a CWC Diver, and I'm not tempted to sell the Omega to pay for it - in large part because there's not enough margin between the respective Omega & CWC models to make the latter as attractive financially as it is cosmetically.

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by HappyJack View Post
    I own an Omega Seamaster Quartz 2264, and a very nice watch it is, with excellent lume on the dial, lovely shiny beveled and well lumed sword hands (great for day and night visibility) a domed sapphire crystal with internal anti reflective coating, and the same quality of case finish as a Speedmaster. It also has a very handy quickset hour hand, and a date, and came with a very comfy bracelet.

    Back in the 1980s I was an RN Navigator and Diver Officer and had an issued CWC Diver, with the lumed bezel, in 1985, when they replaced the Rolex models I never managed to get my hands on. I used it in the water but found it less useful for navigation, where I needed to know the date multiple times a day. It was also a very nice watch and I'm very tempted to get another, but:
    • The lume is stellar, but the hands have white rather than polished bevels, which aren't as attractive or as legible in low light.
    • The case is not quite as well-made.
    • It lacks a bracelet.
    • There's no quickset hour hand, nor any date on the RN models.
    • It doesn't have a domed sapphire crystal with ARC.
    • It doesn't have the brand cachet of Omega.


    If I were still an RN Navigator and Diving Officer, I'd probably use my Omega rather than the issued CWC, especially since the quickset hour hand is useful when crossing time zones which happens regularly on ocean passages.

    The only advantage the CWC offers is the lumed bezel on the 1983 remakes, which is sadly not generally available on regular models. And the price of those remake models is such that I've not yet bought a CWC Diver, and I'm not tempted to sell the Omega to pay for it - in large part because there's not enough margin between the respective Omega & CWC models to make the latter as attractive financially as it is cosmetically.
    Interesting points and, just 'chatting' back (I realise I'm in danger of sounding like a cwc defender, which I'm not, I just see inconsistency in the way some the brand is sometimes discussed)

    Until recently, I had a 2231.50 (a titanium cased 2254) which I wore for several years. Before that, my main watch was a 16710.

    I'd agree, the sword hands are excellent, I'd also assert that the Omega lume is several 100 percent better than Rolex's (another value discussion could be had on that point alone! 😂😊). I would say, I found the Seamaster bezel sub-optimal; it's more cosmetic than it is functional, as the wavy scalloped edge defies grip with wet or gloved hands. Other than that, as has been said, the watches come from the same design ancestor.

    Chatting your other points, based really on having a brand new fat-hand, sapphire crystal CWC variants on my wrist as I type:

    • The lume is stellar, but the hands have white rather than polished bevels, which aren't as attractive or as legible in low light.

      (My dial is light vintage - I was worried that might reduce lume performance; I've been stunned to find this CWC to be the brightest lume dial and hands I've ever handled, bar none.
      I don't agree on the white outline hands being less bright, to my eyes, polished surround is either 'on' or 'off depending on whether there's anything to reflect. I'm finding the brilliant white far more consistently legible.)
    • The case is not quite as well-made.

      (I can't agree on this one. The sapphire case is immaculately executed)
    • It lacks a bracelet.

      (Fair one. But the flip side is, you're not going to pop a spring bar and lose your watch. (in water, I once watched a nylon strap literally roll on one edge and catch &open a springbar on my submariner... I sold that watch and went for an older drilled lugs submariner in order to solve that problem!)
    • There's no quickset hour hand, nor any date on the RN models.

      (Fair)
    • It doesn't have a domed sapphire crystal with ARC.

      (Dome - or lack of- is taking me a bit of time to adjust, I'm not used to it. As regards ARC, I'd stand correction, but I think the sapphire versions do have it (?))
    • It doesn't have the brand cachet of Omega.

      (Unarguable!)

  23. #23
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    Going back for a moment to the OP's title - 'CWC quartz pricing ...." What are peoples thoughts on Marathon divers?

    https://www.marathonwatch.uk/collect...-quartz-medium

    I've recently purchased a RN Diver (RN 300 no date) and I really like it. I too wrangled with the price and I must confess to being influenced by a lot of others who thought that CWC pricing was too rich for them but in the end, as I liked the watch, I bought one.

    I now find myself wanting to try a Marathon Divers and the one linked above seems to be one of their cheaper models. Similar price, similar spec (300m as opposed to 200m for the all important desk dive), military links?

    Prices are similar to CWC - I know a few have them on the forum - Are they any good and do you feel that they are overpriced for what is 'just a quartz watch?!!"

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eddiex View Post
    Going back for a moment to the OP's title - 'CWC quartz pricing ...." What are peoples thoughts on Marathon divers?

    https://www.marathonwatch.uk/collect...-quartz-medium

    I've recently purchased a RN Diver (RN 300 no date) and I really like it. I too wrangled with the price and I must confess to being influenced by a lot of others who thought that CWC pricing was too rich for them but in the end, as I liked the watch, I bought one.

    I now find myself wanting to try a Marathon Divers and the one linked above seems to be one of their cheaper models. Similar price, similar spec (300m as opposed to 200m for the all important desk dive), military links?

    Prices are similar to CWC - I know a few have them on the forum - Are they any good and do you feel that they are overpriced for what is 'just a quartz watch?!!"
    I did a comparison a while ago that may help.
    https://forum.tz-uk.com/showthread.p...light=marathon
    When I 'acquired' my first Marathon (they were not for sale to the public) which strangely made if feel even more special, now you can buy them (not my version though). They are thicker and heavier than a CWC diver, but they feel indestructible. I would argue the bezel action is better on a Marathon as well.
    Early Marathons did have 2 issues that have now been resolved so if you do go 2nd hand make sure its a new version or that the crown and tube has been replaced along with the bezel insert (the pip used to fall out).
    Last edited by Sinnlover; 19th April 2021 at 13:28.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Brauner Hund View Post
    Afterthought. Genuine questions:

    I'm puzzled, why do you feel that being a monnin-style case has a bearing on the cost? You seem to be saying that feature makes a watch cheaper - or have I misunderstood?

    Please would you signpost other brands delivering Swiss made 300m dive watches more cheaply - they'd be worth a look!

    Thanks!
    The Monnin case has a genuine bearing on cost because (as I stated in the first post), CWC had to pay precisely nothing to develop their watch.
    Monnin designed the case, and the MoD designed the dial and hands.
    So that feature does make the watch cheaper, the original CWC was effectively like a modern hommage watch, with every detail designed for them, they just got it manufactured.
    These days, MWC offer the same watch at 300m WR for £165. I do not recommend them (I have no experience of them), but it shows that it can be done.
    And as I stated before, Eddie hopes to re-issue his version, for under £200.
    I am well aware that these are not Swiss made, but we all know how little that means.
    Does that difference alone mean you can charge multiples more for it?
    I am genuinely confused that you would think that offers good value.

    D

  26. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by sweets View Post
    The Monnin case has a genuine bearing on cost because (as I stated in the first post), CWC had to pay precisely nothing to develop their watch.
    Monnin designed the case, and the MoD designed the dial and hands.
    So, I think you're contending that that reduces production costs over 4 decades later? If so, understood, but not sure I agree.

    As regards pricing of Swiss vs Chinese and HK alternatives, I think the pricing delta is historically well established - which leaves me confused why you're singling out CWC? Do you feel the same about all Swiss made watches? Entirely valid if you do, but if you're just singling out CWC, why?
    Last edited by Brauner Hund; 19th April 2021 at 16:51.

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    As an independent observer with many CWC watches under my belt, the percentages of their annual increases have been huge to say the least. Whilst the big Swiss boys may add a 5% to 10% increase each time, CWC have exceed those figures for sure. I think when I first got into CWC the automatic was £525 new, these are £900 or so now and the increases on the Quartz models are equally high.

    I even bought the 1980 automatic reissue and 1983 Quartz RN reissue on release only to lose a huge amount when moved on. In both cases those watches lost about a third the minute you put them on your wrist.

    I don't know if these increases were justified or the company pushing the market to its limit, but CWC increases always appeared much bigger than everyone else's. There were plenty of threads at the time as these price hikes were happening.

  28. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wallasey Runner View Post
    As
    I don't know if these increases were justified or the company pushing the market to its limit, but CWC increases always appeared much bigger than everyone else's. There were plenty of threads at the time as these price hikes were happening.
    I'm also independent, I'm just struck by how CWC is singled-out - and I suspect much of that is sour grapes as described in one of my earlier posts.

    Depreciation from new? I think we fag-packeted that at about 30% in another thread. Buy a new Bremont, Tag, Omega, Seiko, etc, I suspect the reality is about the same (?), so seems odd that that's flagged for this one brand.

    Price hikes - I can only go on limited data, but you bought one. I bought one. Others buy them. So I deduce they're about at the right market price... but those not buying, presumably don't; and I'd guess that's the same crowd who bemoan the hikes.

    Going back to Bremont, as a comparison. To my mind an insane price point and depreciation proposition - but it started 'up there' price-wise, and so seems to be tolerated as a value proposition.

  29. #29
    Grand Master Wallasey Runner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brauner Hund View Post

    Depreciation from new? I think we fag-packeted that at about 30% in another thread. Buy a new Bremont, Tag, Omega, Seiko, etc, I suspect the reality is about the same (?), so seems odd that that's flagged for this one brand.
    In that other thread we also seemed to agree that once the initial hit had taken place the price remained stable. The 1980 Reissue is a good buy at £1200 as is the RN 83 diver at £600, but I wouldn't buy a new CWC these days knowing the above. I would look for a good second hand one that has already taken the hit.

    I agree this logic applies to a lot of brands and sometimes the percentage of the initial hit can be much higher, so not just a CWC issue as you say. Oris are particularly bad for the big hit.

  30. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wallasey Runner View Post
    I agree this logic applies to a lot of brands and sometimes the percentage of the initial hit can be much higher, so not just a CWC issue as you say. Oris are particularly bad for the big hit.
    Yup which is what makes this focussed anti-CWC narrative from some so odd.
    Last edited by Brauner Hund; 19th April 2021 at 18:38.

  31. #31
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    I do not wish to single out CWC for being bad value. Loads of watch companies offer bad value, CWC are not alone.
    And arguments over value are always difficult. Especially if they start becoming comparisons.
    However, this thread was spedifically created in order to highlight that CWC are good value, and I disagree, so I have siad so.

    The Quartz CWC diver is a very basic watch. The dial is monotone and printed, it is a bog standard quartz movement, the crystal is simple and flat and mineral, the bezel an aluminium insert with a single bezel pearl. 60 click.
    It is the epitome of a cheaply designed dive watch for simple production. It is £500.
    The cheapest black one, the SBS, gains black coating and sapphire glass (still flat). It is £700 - quite an increase for a coating and a crystal upgrade.
    The Zeno versions (which were/are swiss made) were about £200 brand new, until they were discontinued. The Zeno is a valid and direct comparison.

    I still wouldn't buy a CWC quartz at 30% if that is the depreciation from new, I would buy one of the used Zenos off SC for about £160-£200, because I see that as where I believe the value should lie.

    But I haven't. I bought a Scurfa instead. My quartz dive watch choice is titanium, with a 500m WR, He release valve, somed sapphire crystal and a Swiss movement for £160 - used price - but still less than half the CWC brand new.

    Zeno, Timefactors, Scurfa. Lots of people able to provide specification-equalling watches at a much better value point than CWC. Some swiss made, some with swiss movements.

    And I do not argue that the Monnin case offers production cost reduction today - my argument is that getting the design for free made the watch cheap to develop. I argue that because it was cheap, and has not changed at all, it should stay cheap. What change justifies the price rise?

    By the same token, your suggestion infers that the CWC price is based on production cost, which is demonstrably not true (see above).

    Dave

  32. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by sweets View Post
    I do not wish to single out CWC for being bad value. Loads of watch companies offer bad value, CWC are not alone.
    And arguments over value are always difficult. Especially if they start becoming comparisons.
    However, this thread was spedifically created in order to highlight that CWC are good value, and I disagree, so I have siad so.

    The Quartz CWC diver is a very basic watch. The dial is monotone and printed, it is a bog standard quartz movement, the crystal is simple and flat and mineral, the bezel an aluminium insert with a single bezel pearl. 60 click.
    It is the epitome of a cheaply designed dive watch for simple production. It is £500.
    The cheapest black one, the SBS, gains black coating and sapphire glass (still flat). It is £700 - quite an increase for a coating and a crystal upgrade.
    The Zeno versions (which were/are swiss made) were about £200 brand new, until they were discontinued. The Zeno is a valid and direct comparison.

    I still wouldn't buy a CWC quartz at 30% if that is the depreciation from new, I would buy one of the used Zenos off SC for about £160-£200, because I see that as where I believe the value should lie.

    But I haven't. I bought a Scurfa instead. My quartz dive watch choice is titanium, with a 500m WR, He release valve, somed sapphire crystal and a Swiss movement for £160 - used price - but still less than half the CWC brand new.

    Zeno, Timefactors, Scurfa. Lots of people able to provide specification-equalling watches at a much better value point than CWC. Some swiss made, some with swiss movements.

    And I do not argue that the Monnin case offers production cost reduction today - my argument is that getting the design for free made the watch cheap to develop. I argue that because it was cheap, and has not changed at all, it should stay cheap. What change justifies the price rise?

    By the same token, your suggestion infers that the CWC price is based on production cost, which is demonstrably not true (see above).

    Dave
    Dave,
    You make a lot of assumptions, starting with a misperception that this thread set out to represent CWC as good value and ending with an inference you draw from an implication that I don't think has been made. And your point on monnin has completely lost me.
    You don't like them. I get that - 😊

  33. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brauner Hund View Post
    Dave,
    You make a lot of assumptions, starting with a misperception that this thread set out to represent CWC as good value and ending with an inference you draw from an implication that I don't think has been made. And your point on monnin has completely lost me.
    You don't like them. I get that - 
    Having had a Zeno made Broadarrow PRS-4 and a CWC SBS, I prefer the latter. Build quality seems better, case more robust and bezel action far better. That said the Broadarrow is a lovely watch with the same design queues. However the CWC execution is that little bit better. I Know I am comparing an older watch to a newer one which is a little unfair. I don't think the CWC is worth 3 times more than the Zeno (probably twice as much if Zeno were to produce a new batch) in material or design. However the CWC has a better back story, and when it come to watches, that is the most important part. In the same way that if you want to compete in the Olympics, you need to chose your parents carefully, if you want to produce a really compelling watch, you need to choose the history of your watch company carefully.

    The Scurfa watches have great spec at a great price and if all I was interested in was spec, then the choice would be an easy one. I'm sure if there is a new PRS-3 from TF it will also be a solid watch at great price. But if I want material value I have a £7 Casio that will do the job. When you buy an product you are paying for a mixture of design, execution and heritage. Where you place your value is a very individual choice but I think a great back story is worth something, probably a lot.

  34. #34
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    Where do you guys find your issued CWCs? Am looking to add a no date diver to the collection, but with the exception of flea bay nothing really comes up
    Last edited by COMEX; 25th April 2021 at 15:33.

  35. #35
    Grand Master Wallasey Runner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by COMEX View Post
    Where do you guys find your issued CWCs? Am looking to add a no date diver to the collection, but with the exception of flea bay nothing really comes up
    Not that many places, I'm hoping some suggestions come forward here. On e-bay there do seem to be a few dealers who specialise in these types of watches and I would prefer them to some random sale.

    There some on Chrono24 and if you google you do come across vintage or military dealer websites, but it is very hit and miss. Watchpatrol and watchrecon also highlight what's being listed, but it's usually on forum that I'm not a member of.

  36. #36
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    Feared so ... thereís one seller on eBay that has currently two for sale, however at >1.1 K£ is kinda steep imo

  37. #37
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    Anchor Supplies?

    https://www.anchorsupplies.com/watches.html

    No comment on pricing...
    ______

    ​Jim.

  38. #38
    Watch prices in general have gone bananas to a point where I simply cannot justify expensive automatics any more. At the same time CWC divers were £300, Rolex Submariners were around £2k - and for absolutely years, with prices barely moving for the 10 years I was Ďintoí the brand. The same with Panerai and Omega - moon watch was £1650 as was the Submariner 14060M. Now they are almost impossible to obtain at a list of - what - £8k? I donít even follow the prices any more - and grey dealers charge even more. Iím wearing a CWC light vintage SBS quartz as I type this - paid £700 for it new a few months ago, itís gained 1 second since the clocks change and it wears like a 1980ís diver - svelte and easy to read, no fuss - and I do t really think there is anything out there like it tbh. Letís be honest, I remember most of the Seiko divers being between £100 - £150, now they want multiples of that and they canít even be bothered to put them together straight!


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  39. #39
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    Agreed re overall pricing development and Iíd be willing to pay 700 quid for one, however not north of 1K

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by jwg663 View Post
    Anchor Supplies?

    https://www.anchorsupplies.com/watches.html

    No comment on pricing...
    Holy moly

  40. #40
    Master Sinnlover's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by COMEX View Post
    Agreed re overall pricing development and Iíd be willing to pay 700 quid for one, however not north of 1K

    - - - Updated - - -



    Holy moly
    You will not get an issued watch for £700.
    A civilian watch yes.

  41. #41
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    Ok ... how come the ones at 1.1K on eBay are not being snapped up?

  42. #42
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    Why would they be? Not every watch on ebay listed as 'issued' is. As such they are too expensive. Condition also plays a part, a few on ebay are not 100% correct, some are listed as issued because they come from a known year of issue but the serial does not fall in to the recorded serial number range, as such it is a civilian watch. It also depends on what people are looking for, certain years command high prices some lower.
    Lastly the market is quite small and collectors know each other, so buying from a trusted source is preferable. For a recently modern issued watch £900-1k is about on the money as far as I have seen. Earlier watches go for more

  43. #43
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    thx for the explanation...wasn't aware of specific serial # ranges that an 'issued' watch has to fall into...

    I was referring to this one here (https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/402798448...53.m1438.l2649) in my previous post. That seller has had a few for sale recently...

  44. #44
    Master Sinnlover's Avatar
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    https://cwcaddict.com/rn-diver

    Have a look at this website (if you have not seen it already)
    It has a ton of info on all CWCs but especially the divers.
    Its written by 2 well known collectors
    You will see there were not many issued, far fewer than people think.

  45. #45
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    Thx ... will check it out


    Edit: had a look and if I got it right the one on eBay is within the issued numbers range
    Last edited by COMEX; 26th April 2021 at 14:44.

  46. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by RobDad View Post
    Watch prices in general have gone bananas to a point where I simply cannot justify expensive automatics any more. At the same time CWC divers were £300, Rolex Submariners were around £2k -
    As a student in 1985 or 86, I was in Weymouth for a 21st.

    I clearly remember a proper surplus shop in the town centre, which - extremely unusually back then - had ten or so G10s in the window.
    A foot or so from the G10s were 4 Rolex dive watches on G10 straps.
    The pre-internet world hadn't got the term 'milsub' nor the echo-chamber hysteria of today, but I knew what a Rolex was and I stared hard at them. £50 was about my flippant spend limit at the time and I agonised over whether I could say 'what the hell' and get myself a Submariner.

    Each milsub, and I can visualise them as I type, was priced at £250.

    Oh well.

  47. #47
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    On CWC dive watches and 'issue'.... my view as a Forces-lifer: Ignore it.
    No offence to anyone, each to his own, but the 'issue' cachet is an internet-thing. If you want a decent dive watch just buy one - the only difference with 'issue' is the serial number on the removable caseback that no one will ever see, and most will be unable to differentiate.....they're likely to have been abused and, for most, the only action they'll have seen is when a bored sapper or rating decided to see if it felt different with his left hand.... not worth an extra 500 pounds or grand
    :)
    Last edited by Brauner Hund; 26th April 2021 at 16:23.

  48. #48
    Master Sinnlover's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brauner Hund View Post
    On CWC dive watches and 'issue'.... my view as a Forces-lifer: Ignore it.
    No offence to anyone, each to his own, but the 'issue' cachet is an internet-thing. If you want a decent dive watch just buy one - the only difference with 'issue' is the serial number on the removable caseback that no one will ever see, and most will be unable to differentiate.....they're likely to have been abused and, for most, the only action they'll have seen is when a bored sapper or rating decided to see if it felt different with his left hand.... not worth an extra 500 pounds or grand
    :)
    You make a very valid point
    Unless you collect 'issued watches' by the civi version, its identical in better nick and cheaper.

  49. #49
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    +1 re paying over the odds for an issued one...

    I already own a 2008 SBS civi version from this very parish, but I always fancied the idea of an issued one (after realising 15 yrs ago that the 5517 will forever be out of reach), but am not willing to fork out >1K for one.

    where would you guys see a civi no date diver with Tritium dial/hands?

  50. #50
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    MWR / broadarrow.net is a good source they come up regularly.

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