CWC quartz pricing: A challenge.

[Brauner Hund]

A recurring theme I've noted over 5 or so years reading here is occasional, but repetitive, posts including statements along the lines of

"CWC dive watch pricing is insane - I wouldn't pay that for a quartz watch"

Which, given the pricing of other Swiss 300m dive watches, leaves me slightly bemused.🤔

So, here's my idle short-essay challenge for anyone so inclined:

With reference to Omega 2264.50 pricing, explain the statement "CWC dive watch pricing is insane - I wouldn't pay that for a quartz watch".

[Brauner Hund]

A recurring theme I've noted over 5 or so years reading here is occasional, but repetitive, posts including statements along the lines of

"CWC dive watch pricing is insane - I wouldn't pay that for a quartz watch"

Which, given the pricing of other Swiss 300m dive watches, leaves me slightly bemused.樂

So, here's my idle short-essay challenge for anyone so inclined:

With reference to Omega 2264.50 pricing, explain the statement "CWC dive watch pricing is insane - I wouldn't pay that for a quartz watch".

I've written that over my 1st morning coffee... rather over bluntly worded...and no smileys, so please read it as though I typed it with a smile on my face and a skip in my step and scattered it with smileys :)

[Sinnlover]

It’s now a closed forum so if it does not work you might have to reapply for membership

[COMEX]

Am in....ta

[Sinnlover]

The price of some Grand Seiko must blow their mind!
On a serious note The Omega you highlight is a good example, they obviously share the same design language and a common history, the quartz version will even have a similar if not identical movement (bar a nice little Omega symbol) yet one is seen as good value the other over priced.
I guess image is more valuable than that sum of parts!

[Papa Hotel]

I guess part of it is the halo effect. Omega is a premium brand with prices running into the many tens of thousands, these halo watches lift the perception of the watches below it. Omega quartz divers benefit from this and are lifted in status and cost.

With CWC, when your top-end watch is a quartz diver... well, it doesn't matter how good it is, it's always going to be a low-end quartz diver, two a penny.

[Brauner Hund]

I guess part of it is the halo effect. Omega is a premium brand with prices running into the many tens of thousands, these halo watches lift the perception of the watches below it. Omega quartz divers benefit from this and are lifted in status and cost.

Yup good point.

[Wallasey Runner]

Can I just clarify a point for my own education more than anything else. Issued simply means the watch falls within a given series of numbers of watches known to have been supplied to the MoD.

The watch could have sat in the stores for years and been sold as surplus without seeing anything more exciting than a trip down the M1.

Clearly watches with history are more desirable and therefore more expensive and as we discussed in the Navigator thread the likes of Happy Jack's '81 Navigator with some history and photos of the Watch doing military service would be a collectors dream, but is this 'issued' thing a licence for sellers to ask more money.

Any thoughts guys?

[Sinnlover]

Can I just clarify a point for my own education more than anything else. Issued simply means the watch falls within a given series of numbers of watches known to have been supplied to the MoD.

The watch could have sat in the stores for years and been sold as surplus without seeing anything more exciting than a trip down the M1.

Clearly watches with history are more desirable and therefore more expensive and as we discussed in the Navigator thread the likes of Happy Jack's '81 Navigator with some history and photos of the Watch doing military service would be a collectors dream, but is this 'issued' thing a licence for sellers to ask more money.

Any thoughts guys?

Yep!
There is no guarantee an issued watch was on the balcony of the Iranian Embassy
It could have sat in a box in a cupboard
It could have sat on the wrist of the QM whilst he counted socks.
Documented history is far more desirable than purely issued, a watch with history sells for a lot more.
That said an known issued (divers) watch is quite a rare thing, the scarcity and the hunt is the major attraction (for me anyway)

[Wallasey Runner]

Yep!
There is no guarantee an issued watch was on the balcony of the Iranian Embassy
It could have sat in a box in a cupboard
It could have sat on the wrist of the QM whilst he counted socks.
Documented history is far more desirable than purely issued, a watch with history sells for a lot more.
That said an known issued (divers) watch is quite a rare thing, the scarcity and the hunt is the major attraction (for me anyway)

Thanks for this, very much what I thought. So an issued number is preferable to a non issued number, but an issued number with associated history is top trumps.

I had an exchange the other day with a guy who said he was presented with a Rolex Comex diver watch for 10 years service, but the thing has sat in his bank vault since he got it and it is still covered in stickers etc. Probably still a £100k watch, but hasn't seen much service.

Equally, I remember a London dealer who was selling a Comex a few years back and it came with everything, a complete log, full history of the guy who it was presented to and loads of pics of the guy wearing the watch on dives. It added quite a bit to the asking price.

[Brauner Hund]

The Omega you highlight is a good example, they obviously share the same design language and a common history, the quartz version will even have a similar if not identical movement (bar a nice little Omega symbol) yet one is seen as good value the other over priced.

100%.

I certainly need another coffee, but I'm always struck by the logic disconnect to the price derision.
I do buy the point on halo effect. It'll be interesting to see if any other reasonable explanations materialise.

[gerrudd]

I bought a second hand CWC SBS earlier this week. I think it's a well made watch, great design, wears well and fantastic heritage. I'm not sure on the price. For what I paid I could have picked up a used Tag Heuer from sales corner. Design and heritage are such an important part of why we buy a watch and it's very hard to detangle that from the actual value (material, movement, workmanship) of the watch.

[Brauner Hund]

I bought a second hand CWC SBS earlier this week. I think it's a well made watch, great design, wears well and fantastic heritage. I'm not sure on the price. For what I paid I could have picked up a used Tag Heuer from sales corner. Design and heritage are such an important part of why we buy a watch and it's very hard to detangle that from the actual value (material, movement, workmanship) of the watch.

Well, that's sort of my point; in actual value, two dive watches made in Switzerland with broadly identical components, why do you feel the Tag had greater value? (Funnily, to my mind, Tag is the poor man's Omega... which is a silly notion too, I guess it all comes back to marketing!)

[gerrudd]

The Tag, mainly on brand awareness. For example wife knows who Tag are, never heard of CWC. I prefer the CWC design to the Tag, hence I bought it instead. That said, I didn't love it enough to purchase it new.

[Brauner Hund]

The Tag, mainly on brand awareness. For example wife knows who Tag are, never heard of CWC. I prefer the CWC design to the Tag, hence I bought it instead. That said, I didn't love it enough to purchase it new.

Yup. (Oddly, in my back-to-front brain, that makes the CWC cooler 😂😊 - sort of, a watch for 'those who know' !)

[dukeskd]

How much does the movement cost?

[Eddiex]

@Sinnlover

That's interesting to read. Good to know that a Smiths W10 would be a good option when looking for an issued example.

The info on the CWC case back swap when they were back at the MOD watch makers for repairs made me smile! I can well imagine them sitting at their workbenches and maybe even going as far as making a 'bitsa' watch from various parts and putting it back out out for service. They would have had no idea about the enthusiasm that now surrounds these watches and the importance/value/£££'s that collectors put on them today! As far as they were concerned they were probably just putting another bit of kit out for use?

[Sinnlover]

@Sinnlover

That's interesting to read. Good to know that a Smiths W10 would be a good option when looking for an issued example.

The info on the CWC case back swap when they were back at the MOD watch makers for repairs made me smile! I can well imagine them sitting at their workbenches and maybe even going as far as making a 'bitsa' watch from various parts and putting it back out out for service. They would have had no idea about the enthusiasm that now surrounds these watches and the importance/value/£££'s that collectors put on them today! As far as they were concerned they were probably just putting another bit of kit out for use?

There is an interesting discussion on this exact issue over on MWR
Early 70s CWC / Hamilton Chronographs use 100% identical interchangeable parts as both were made by Breitling. The MOD watch makers didn't really care about originality; as long as the same number of watches were retuned to use as they received for service they were happy. As such all sorts got swapped around. You can never be 100% sure of what you have. This did change in the late 70s early 80s.

[Eddiex]

At the risk of showing my ignorance - what would be the situation with a Smiths W10 for example. Were these only available to the military and therefore a collector at least could be sure that it may have been worn by their personnel? Or, could Joe Bloggs get a civvie purchased watch and do a case back swap as mention earlier in thread?

[Sinnlover]

At the risk of showing my ignorance - what would be the situation with a Smiths W10 for example. Were these only available to the military and therefore a collector at least could be sure that it may have been worn by their personnel? Or, could Joe Bloggs get a civvie purchased watch and do a case back swap as mention earlier in thread?

It’s only recently that some military watches have been available on the civilian market.
CWC started selling to joe bloggs around 2005 when the military contracts dried up.
(Marathon started selling to the public about 2010)

Take your example of the Smiths W10. This watch was never sold to the public in its military form. i.e. T on the dial etc. So any Smiths W10 with a military dial and case back was an issued watch.

Same for the Hamilton 6b of the same era. The civilian versions of the watch had a different dial and case back (although some of these were bought by other militaries)

The US issued Hamilton’s from the 1980s were sold by Hamilton under the Khaki brand and then flogged in every outdoor shop and outfitters you can think of, they are all clearly marked on the dial with their retailer logo.

The IWC mk11 was sold to to militaries, airlines and available on the civilian market but there are subtle differences in the movement dial and case back that you can look out for.

A case back on a CWC (or other watch) could be changed and it would be hard to tell if the watch was from the same production run. There are small changes in details between production runs that can act as a give away so the person swapping would need to know their stuff, it is possible though.

To confuse matters even more the MOD watch makers did not always return case backs to their original watches at service. E.g. I have an 89 issued Precista diver that has a 88 case back.

[Brauner Hund]

(I have no idea why asterisks appear in my posts here!)

[Eddiex]

Going back for a moment to the OP's title - 'CWC quartz pricing ...." What are peoples thoughts on Marathon divers?

https://www.marathonwatch.uk/collect...-quartz-medium

I've recently purchased a RN Diver (RN 300 no date) and I really like it. I too wrangled with the price and I must confess to being influenced by a lot of others who thought that CWC pricing was too rich for them but in the end, as I liked the watch, I bought one.

I now find myself wanting to try a Marathon Divers and the one linked above seems to be one of their cheaper models. Similar price, similar spec (300m as opposed to 200m for the all important desk dive), military links?

Prices are similar to CWC - I know a few have them on the forum - Are they any good and do you feel that they are overpriced for what is 'just a quartz watch?!!"

[Sinnlover]

Going back for a moment to the OP's title - 'CWC quartz pricing ...." What are peoples thoughts on Marathon divers?

https://www.marathonwatch.uk/collect...-quartz-medium

I've recently purchased a RN Diver (RN 300 no date) and I really like it. I too wrangled with the price and I must confess to being influenced by a lot of others who thought that CWC pricing was too rich for them but in the end, as I liked the watch, I bought one.

I now find myself wanting to try a Marathon Divers and the one linked above seems to be one of their cheaper models. Similar price, similar spec (300m as opposed to 200m for the all important desk dive), military links?

Prices are similar to CWC - I know a few have them on the forum - Are they any good and do you feel that they are overpriced for what is 'just a quartz watch?!!"

I did a comparison a while ago that may help.
https://forum.tz-uk.com/showthread.p...light=marathon
When I 'acquired' my first Marathon (they were not for sale to the public) which strangely made if feel even more special, now you can buy them (not my version though). They are thicker and heavier than a CWC diver, but they feel indestructible. I would argue the bezel action is better on a Marathon as well.
Early Marathons did have 2 issues that have now been resolved so if you do go 2nd hand make sure its a new version or that the crown and tube has been replaced along with the bezel insert (the pip used to fall out).

[Wallasey Runner]

As an independent observer with many CWC watches under my belt, the percentages of their annual increases have been huge to say the least. Whilst the big Swiss boys may add a 5% to 10% increase each time, CWC have exceed those figures for sure. I think when I first got into CWC the automatic was £525 new, these are £900 or so now and the increases on the Quartz models are equally high.

I even bought the 1980 automatic reissue and 1983 Quartz RN reissue on release only to lose a huge amount when moved on. In both cases those watches lost about a third the minute you put them on your wrist.

I don't know if these increases were justified or the company pushing the market to its limit, but CWC increases always appeared much bigger than everyone else's. There were plenty of threads at the time as these price hikes were happening.

[Brauner Hund]

As
I don't know if these increases were justified or the company pushing the market to its limit, but CWC increases always appeared much bigger than everyone else's. There were plenty of threads at the time as these price hikes were happening.

I'm also independent, I'm just struck by how CWC is singled-out - and I suspect much of that is sour grapes as described in one of my earlier posts.

Depreciation from new? I think we fag-packeted that at about 30% in another thread. Buy a new Bremont, Tag, Omega, Seiko, etc, I suspect the reality is about the same (?), so seems odd that that's flagged for this one brand.

Price hikes - I can only go on limited data, but you bought one. I bought one. Others buy them. So I deduce they're about at the right market price... but those not buying, presumably don't; and I'd guess that's the same crowd who bemoan the hikes.

Going back to Bremont, as a comparison. To my mind an insane price point and depreciation proposition - but it started 'up there' price-wise, and so seems to be tolerated as a value proposition.

[Wallasey Runner]

Depreciation from new? I think we fag-packeted that at about 30% in another thread. Buy a new Bremont, Tag, Omega, Seiko, etc, I suspect the reality is about the same (?), so seems odd that that's flagged for this one brand.

In that other thread we also seemed to agree that once the initial hit had taken place the price remained stable. The 1980 Reissue is a good buy at £1200 as is the RN 83 diver at £600, but I wouldn't buy a new CWC these days knowing the above. I would look for a good second hand one that has already taken the hit.

I agree this logic applies to a lot of brands and sometimes the percentage of the initial hit can be much higher, so not just a CWC issue as you say. Oris are particularly bad for the big hit.

[Brauner Hund]

I agree this logic applies to a lot of brands and sometimes the percentage of the initial hit can be much higher, so not just a CWC issue as you say. Oris are particularly bad for the big hit.

Yup which is what makes this focussed anti-CWC narrative from some so odd.

[sweets]

I do not wish to single out CWC for being bad value. Loads of watch companies offer bad value, CWC are not alone.
And arguments over value are always difficult. Especially if they start becoming comparisons.
However, this thread was spedifically created in order to highlight that CWC are good value, and I disagree, so I have siad so.

The Quartz CWC diver is a very basic watch. The dial is monotone and printed, it is a bog standard quartz movement, the crystal is simple and flat and mineral, the bezel an aluminium insert with a single bezel pearl. 60 click.
It is the epitome of a cheaply designed dive watch for simple production. It is £500.
The cheapest black one, the SBS, gains black coating and sapphire glass (still flat). It is £700 - quite an increase for a coating and a crystal upgrade.
The Zeno versions (which were/are swiss made) were about £200 brand new, until they were discontinued. The Zeno is a valid and direct comparison.

I still wouldn't buy a CWC quartz at 30% if that is the depreciation from new, I would buy one of the used Zenos off SC for about £160-£200, because I see that as where I believe the value should lie.

But I haven't. I bought a Scurfa instead. My quartz dive watch choice is titanium, with a 500m WR, He release valve, somed sapphire crystal and a Swiss movement for £160 - used price - but still less than half the CWC brand new.

Zeno, Timefactors, Scurfa. Lots of people able to provide specification-equalling watches at a much better value point than CWC. Some swiss made, some with swiss movements.

And I do not argue that the Monnin case offers production cost reduction today - my argument is that getting the design for free made the watch cheap to develop. I argue that because it was cheap, and has not changed at all, it should stay cheap. What change justifies the price rise?

By the same token, your suggestion infers that the CWC price is based on production cost, which is demonstrably not true (see above).

Dave

[RobDad]

Watch prices in general have gone bananas to a point where I simply cannot justify expensive automatics any more. At the same time CWC divers were £300, Rolex Submariners were around £2k - and for absolutely years, with prices barely moving for the 10 years I was ‘into’ the brand. The same with Panerai and Omega - moon watch was £1650 as was the Submariner 14060M. Now they are almost impossible to obtain at a list of - what - £8k? I don’t even follow the prices any more - and grey dealers charge even more. I’m wearing a CWC light vintage SBS quartz as I type this - paid £700 for it new a few months ago, it’s gained 1 second since the clocks change and it wears like a 1980’s diver - svelte and easy to read, no fuss - and I do t really think there is anything out there like it tbh. Let’s be honest, I remember most of the Seiko divers being between £100 - £150, now they want multiples of that and they can’t even be bothered to put them together straight!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Brauner Hund]

Watch prices in general have gone bananas to a point where I simply cannot justify expensive automatics any more. At the same time CWC divers were £300, Rolex Submariners were around £2k -

As a student in 1985 or 86, I was in Weymouth for a 21st.

I clearly remember a proper surplus shop in the town centre, which - extremely unusually back then - had ten or so G10s in the window.
A foot or so from the G10s were 4 Rolex dive watches on G10 straps.
The pre-internet world hadn't got the term 'milsub' nor the echo-chamber hysteria of today, but I knew what a Rolex was and I stared hard at them. £50 was about my flippant spend limit at the time and I agonised over whether I could say 'what the hell' and get myself a Submariner.

Each milsub, and I can visualise them as I type, was priced at £250.

Oh well.

[Sinnlover]

Why would they be? Not every watch on ebay listed as 'issued' is. As such they are too expensive. Condition also plays a part, a few on ebay are not 100% correct, some are listed as issued because they come from a known year of issue but the serial does not fall in to the recorded serial number range, as such it is a civilian watch. It also depends on what people are looking for, certain years command high prices some lower.
Lastly the market is quite small and collectors know each other, so buying from a trusted source is preferable. For a recently modern issued watch £900-1k is about on the money as far as I have seen. Earlier watches go for more

[COMEX]

thx for the explanation...wasn't aware of specific serial # ranges that an 'issued' watch has to fall into...

I was referring to this one here (https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/402798448...53.m1438.l2649) in my previous post. That seller has had a few for sale recently...

[Sinnlover]

https://cwcaddict.com/rn-diver

Have a look at this website (if you have not seen it already)
It has a ton of info on all CWCs but especially the divers.
Its written by 2 well known collectors
You will see there were not many issued, far fewer than people think.

[COMEX]

Thx ... will check it out


Edit: had a look and if I got it right the one on eBay is within the issued numbers range

[Brauner Hund]

On CWC dive watches and 'issue'.... my view as a Forces-lifer: Ignore it.
No offence to anyone, each to his own, but the 'issue' cachet is an internet-thing. If you want a decent dive watch just buy one - the only difference with 'issue' is the serial number on the removable caseback that no one will ever see, and most will be unable to differentiate.....they're likely to have been abused and, for most, the only action they'll have seen is when a bored sapper or rating decided to see if it felt different with his left hand.... not worth an extra 500 pounds or grand
:)

[Sinnlover]

On CWC dive watches and 'issue'.... my view as a Forces-lifer: Ignore it.
No offence to anyone, each to his own, but the 'issue' cachet is an internet-thing. If you want a decent dive watch just buy one - the only difference with 'issue' is the serial number on the removable caseback that no one will ever see, and most will be unable to differentiate.....they're likely to have been abused and, for most, the only action they'll have seen is when a bored sapper or rating decided to see if it felt different with his left hand.... not worth an extra 500 pounds or grand
:)

You make a very valid point
Unless you collect 'issued watches' by the civi version, its identical in better nick and cheaper.

[COMEX]

+1 re paying over the odds for an issued one...

I already own a 2008 SBS civi version from this very parish, but I always fancied the idea of an issued one (after realising 15 yrs ago that the 5517 will forever be out of reach), but am not willing to fork out >1K for one.

where would you guys see a civi no date diver with Tritium dial/hands?

[Sinnlover]

MWR / broadarrow.net is a good source they come up regularly.

[COMEX]

Gotcha ... gotta check if my user name still works over there

[bobc]

The 83 quartz reissue is very nice and £700 ish is the mark. Might be worth considering Eddie's Broadarrow PRs3 and has the wider hands that so suit this type of watch. Build quality is as good and with date feature. 10 year battery life puts it above CWC imo. Much rarer too!