closing tag is in template navbar
Time Factors Watches



TZ-UK Fundraiser
Page 2 of 2 FirstFirst 12
Results 51 to 73 of 73

Thread: CWC quartz pricing: A challenge.

  1. #51
    Craftsman
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    The Neverlands
    Posts
    547
    Gotcha ... gotta check if my user name still works over there

  2. #52
    Master Sinnlover's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2014
    Location
    London
    Posts
    5,456
    Itís now a closed forum so if it does not work you might have to reapply for membership

  3. #53
    Craftsman
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    The Neverlands
    Posts
    547
    Am in....ta

  4. #54
    Grand Master Wallasey Runner's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2015
    Location
    Merry Old England
    Posts
    12,636
    Can I just clarify a point for my own education more than anything else. Issued simply means the watch falls within a given series of numbers of watches known to have been supplied to the MoD.

    The watch could have sat in the stores for years and been sold as surplus without seeing anything more exciting than a trip down the M1.

    Clearly watches with history are more desirable and therefore more expensive and as we discussed in the Navigator thread the likes of Happy Jack's '81 Navigator with some history and photos of the Watch doing military service would be a collectors dream, but is this 'issued' thing a licence for sellers to ask more money.

    Any thoughts guys?

  5. #55
    Master Sinnlover's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2014
    Location
    London
    Posts
    5,456
    Quote Originally Posted by Wallasey Runner View Post
    Can I just clarify a point for my own education more than anything else. Issued simply means the watch falls within a given series of numbers of watches known to have been supplied to the MoD.

    The watch could have sat in the stores for years and been sold as surplus without seeing anything more exciting than a trip down the M1.

    Clearly watches with history are more desirable and therefore more expensive and as we discussed in the Navigator thread the likes of Happy Jack's '81 Navigator with some history and photos of the Watch doing military service would be a collectors dream, but is this 'issued' thing a licence for sellers to ask more money.

    Any thoughts guys?
    Yep!
    There is no guarantee an issued watch was on the balcony of the Iranian Embassy
    It could have sat in a box in a cupboard
    It could have sat on the wrist of the QM whilst he counted socks.
    Documented history is far more desirable than purely issued, a watch with history sells for a lot more.
    That said an known issued (divers) watch is quite a rare thing, the scarcity and the hunt is the major attraction (for me anyway)

  6. #56
    Grand Master Wallasey Runner's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2015
    Location
    Merry Old England
    Posts
    12,636
    Quote Originally Posted by Sinnlover View Post
    Yep!
    There is no guarantee an issued watch was on the balcony of the Iranian Embassy
    It could have sat in a box in a cupboard
    It could have sat on the wrist of the QM whilst he counted socks.
    Documented history is far more desirable than purely issued, a watch with history sells for a lot more.
    That said an known issued (divers) watch is quite a rare thing, the scarcity and the hunt is the major attraction (for me anyway)
    Thanks for this, very much what I thought. So an issued number is preferable to a non issued number, but an issued number with associated history is top trumps.

    I had an exchange the other day with a guy who said he was presented with a Rolex Comex diver watch for 10 years service, but the thing has sat in his bank vault since he got it and it is still covered in stickers etc. Probably still a £100k watch, but hasn't seen much service.

    Equally, I remember a London dealer who was selling a Comex a few years back and it came with everything, a complete log, full history of the guy who it was presented to and loads of pics of the guy wearing the watch on dives. It added quite a bit to the asking price.

  7. #57
    Craftsman
    Join Date
    Oct 2019
    Location
    Surrey
    Posts
    265
    At the risk of showing my ignorance - what would be the situation with a Smiths W10 for example. Were these only available to the military and therefore a collector at least could be sure that it may have been worn by their personnel? Or, could Joe Bloggs get a civvie purchased watch and do a case back swap as mention earlier in thread?

  8. #58
    Master Sinnlover's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2014
    Location
    London
    Posts
    5,456
    Quote Originally Posted by Eddiex View Post
    At the risk of showing my ignorance - what would be the situation with a Smiths W10 for example. Were these only available to the military and therefore a collector at least could be sure that it may have been worn by their personnel? Or, could Joe Bloggs get a civvie purchased watch and do a case back swap as mention earlier in thread?
    It’s only recently that some military watches have been available on the civilian market.
    CWC started selling to joe bloggs around 2005 when the military contracts dried up.
    (Marathon started selling to the public about 2010)

    Take your example of the Smiths W10. This watch was never sold to the public in its military form. i.e. T on the dial etc. So any Smiths W10 with a military dial and case back was an issued watch.

    Same for the Hamilton 6b of the same era. The civilian versions of the watch had a different dial and case back (although some of these were bought by other militaries)

    The US issued Hamilton’s from the 1980s were sold by Hamilton under the Khaki brand and then flogged in every outdoor shop and outfitters you can think of, they are all clearly marked on the dial with their retailer logo.

    The IWC mk11 was sold to to militaries, airlines and available on the civilian market but there are subtle differences in the movement dial and case back that you can look out for.

    A case back on a CWC (or other watch) could be changed and it would be hard to tell if the watch was from the same production run. There are small changes in details between production runs that can act as a give away so the person swapping would need to know their stuff, it is possible though.

    To confuse matters even more the MOD watch makers did not always return case backs to their original watches at service. E.g. I have an 89 issued Precista diver that has a 88 case back.
    Last edited by Sinnlover; 27th April 2021 at 18:07.

  9. #59
    Craftsman
    Join Date
    Oct 2019
    Location
    Surrey
    Posts
    265
    @Sinnlover

    That's interesting to read. Good to know that a Smiths W10 would be a good option when looking for an issued example.

    The info on the CWC case back swap when they were back at the MOD watch makers for repairs made me smile! I can well imagine them sitting at their workbenches and maybe even going as far as making a 'bitsa' watch from various parts and putting it back out out for service. They would have had no idea about the enthusiasm that now surrounds these watches and the importance/value/£££'s that collectors put on them today! As far as they were concerned they were probably just putting another bit of kit out for use?

  10. #60
    Master Sinnlover's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2014
    Location
    London
    Posts
    5,456
    Quote Originally Posted by Eddiex View Post
    @Sinnlover

    That's interesting to read. Good to know that a Smiths W10 would be a good option when looking for an issued example.

    The info on the CWC case back swap when they were back at the MOD watch makers for repairs made me smile! I can well imagine them sitting at their workbenches and maybe even going as far as making a 'bitsa' watch from various parts and putting it back out out for service. They would have had no idea about the enthusiasm that now surrounds these watches and the importance/value/£££'s that collectors put on them today! As far as they were concerned they were probably just putting another bit of kit out for use?
    There is an interesting discussion on this exact issue over on MWR
    Early 70s CWC / Hamilton Chronographs use 100% identical interchangeable parts as both were made by Breitling. The MOD watch makers didn't really care about originality; as long as the same number of watches were retuned to use as they received for service they were happy. As such all sorts got swapped around. You can never be 100% sure of what you have. This did change in the late 70s early 80s.

  11. #61
    Master
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Sydney, Australia, and Devon/Wiltshire, UK
    Posts
    2,311
    Quote Originally Posted by Brauner Hund View Post
    Interesting points and, just 'chatting' back (I realise I'm in danger of sounding like a cwc defender, which I'm not, I just see inconsistency in the way some the brand is sometimes discussed)

    Until recently, I had a 2231.50 (a titanium cased 2254) which I wore for several years. Before that, my main watch was a 16710.

    I'd agree, the sword hands are excellent, I'd also assert that the Omega lume is several 100 percent better than Rolex's (another value discussion could be had on that point alone! ). I would say, I found the Seamaster bezel sub-optimal; it's more cosmetic than it is functional, as the wavy scalloped edge defies grip with wet or gloved hands. Other than that, as has been said, the watches come from the same design ancestor.

    Chatting your other points, based really on having a brand new fat-hand, sapphire crystal CWC variants on my wrist as I type:

    • The lume is stellar, but the hands have white rather than polished bevels, which aren't as attractive or as legible in low light.

      (My dial is light vintage - I was worried that might reduce lume performance; I've been stunned to find this CWC to be the brightest lume dial and hands I've ever handled, bar none.
      I don't agree on the white outline hands being less bright, to my eyes, polished surround is either 'on' or 'off depending on whether there's anything to reflect. I'm finding the brilliant white far more consistently legible.)
    • The case is not quite as well-made.

      (I can't agree on this one. The sapphire case is immaculately executed)
    • It lacks a bracelet.

      (Fair one. But the flip side is, you're not going to pop a spring bar and lose your watch. (in water, I once watched a nylon strap literally roll on one edge and catch &open a springbar on my submariner... I sold that watch and went for an older drilled lugs submariner in order to solve that problem!)
    • There's no quickset hour hand, nor any date on the RN models.

      (Fair)
    • It doesn't have a domed sapphire crystal with ARC.

      (Dome - or lack of- is taking me a bit of time to adjust, I'm not used to it. As regards ARC, I'd stand correction, but I think the sapphire versions do have it (?))
    • It doesn't have the brand cachet of Omega.

      (Unarguable!)
    Interesting feedback. As I said, I am very tempted by a 1983 CWC RN Diver with the fat hands and lumed bezel, but it's too close to the SMP 2264 to justify having both together.

    Incidentally, I wear my 2264 on a NATO strap with shoulder less spring bars, which minimises the risk of the bar popping out and, in the absence of lug holes can be removed with pliers. That destroys the bars, so I tend to leave it on a NATO for long periods

    However, and this is something I have thought about, the SMP 2234 GMT offers the same handset and the GMT function, with much, much better lume than my Rolex GMT 16710. That matters when you're travelling across time zones (remember those days) and you wake, jet lagged, in the middle on the night, on the far side of the world. That's when it really helps to be able to read the time at a glance. So a combination of a SMP GMT 2234 and a CWC 1983 RN Quartz could work very well. And the surplus value, or cash as others call it, would buy something interesting...

    Incidentally, whilst I found my SMP's bezel a little hard to turn when I first got it, the application of a few squirts of silicone spray fixed that, and it's very easy to turn, now, with wet or dry, gloved or bare hands.

  12. #62
    Craftsman
    Join Date
    Aug 2015
    Location
    Wiltshire UK
    Posts
    299
    Quote Originally Posted by HappyJack View Post
    Interesting feedback. As I said, I am very tempted by a 1983 CWC RN Diver with the fat hands and lumed bezel, but it's too close to the SMP 2264 to justify having both together.

    Incidentally, I wear my 2264 on a NATO strap with shoulder less spring bars, which minimises the risk of the bar popping out and, in the absence of lug holes can be removed with pliers. That destroys the bars, so I tend to leave it on a NATO for long periods

    However, and this is something I have thought about, the SMP 2234 GMT offers the same handset and the GMT function, with much, much better lume than my Rolex GMT 16710. That matters when you're travelling across time zones (remember those days) and you wake, jet lagged, in the middle on the night, on the far side of the world. That's when it really helps to be able to read the time at a glance. So a combination of a SMP GMT 2234 and a CWC 1983 RN Quartz could work very well. And the surplus value, or cash as others call it, would buy something interesting...

    Incidentally, whilst I found my SMP's bezel a little hard to turn when I first got it, the application of a few squirts of silicone spray fixed that, and it's very easy to turn, now, with wet or dry, gloved or bare hands.
    Yup, I did the same shoulderless spring bar and snip route with my 2231.

    I'm still being stunned on a daily basis how legible the CWC and the 83 hands are; it is hands-down the brightest lume on any watch I've owned, and the hand legibility (white surround! :) ) is also the clearest. I've often worried that I'd regret selling the 2231... but I have to say, this watch has completely removed that worry. It (less brand boastability) is better suited to my wants/needs ... and the delta between the sale/purchase left me with >£1k in my pocket.

  13. #63
    Craftsman
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    Lincs
    Posts
    860
    The 83 quartz reissue is very nice and £700 ish is the mark. Might be worth considering Eddie's Broadarrow PRs3 and has the wider hands that so suit this type of watch. Build quality is as good and with date feature. 10 year battery life puts it above CWC imo. Much rarer too!

  14. #64
    Craftsman
    Join Date
    Aug 2015
    Location
    Wiltshire UK
    Posts
    299
    It's interesting tracking the pricing of a couple of the modern English brands in the sales section. Gives a bit of comparative groundtruth on value retention, which is invariably significantly worse as far as I can tell- but the brands don't seem trigger any internet bitterness. ...and Oris et al have already been mentioned.
    There's a psychology article waiting to be written on this!

  15. #65
    Grand Master Wallasey Runner's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2015
    Location
    Merry Old England
    Posts
    12,636
    The early collectible G10s have risen in price over the years as decent examples become harder to find and most collectors keep hold of what they have. The Navigators have always been difficult to source with few coming to market and the prices of those on e-bay in recent times have pushed into 4 figures.

    It's always interesting looking back at old threads from 4-5 years ago or more and looking at people's opinions on pricing and what they paid for theirs. They would be horrified if they had to pay today's prices.

  16. #66
    Craftsman
    Join Date
    Aug 2015
    Location
    Wiltshire UK
    Posts
    299
    Quote Originally Posted by Wallasey Runner View Post
    The early collectible G10s have risen in price over the years as decent examples become harder to find and most collectors keep hold of what they have. The Navigators have always been difficult to source with few coming to market and the prices of those on e-bay in recent times have pushed into 4 figures.

    It's always interesting looking back at old threads from 4-5 years ago or more and looking at people's opinions on pricing and what they paid for theirs. They would be horrified if they had to pay today's prices.
    Yup, but it's a meritless misery, I paid £1078 for my first 16710 in 1990.... not much can be drawn from that except 'so what?'😂😊

  17. #67
    Master
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    ' EXEMPLO DUCEMUS '
    Posts
    5,473
    Quote Originally Posted by Wallasey Runner View Post
    The early collectible G10s have risen in price over the years as decent examples become harder to find and most collectors keep hold of what they have. The Navigators have always been difficult to source with few coming to market and the prices of those on e-bay in recent times have pushed into 4 figures.

    It's always interesting looking back at old threads from 4-5 years ago or more and looking at people's opinions on pricing and what they paid for theirs. They would be horrified if they had to pay today's prices.

    My current CWC G10 (1991 W10 ) was purchased from Johnsons of Leeds last July at a mere price of £99. The following week they had been increased to the value of £200.

  18. #68
    Craftsman
    Join Date
    Aug 2015
    Location
    Wiltshire UK
    Posts
    299
    Quote Originally Posted by MADDOG View Post
    My current CWC G10 (1991 W10 ) was purchased from Johnsons of Leeds last July at a mere price of £99. The following week they had been increased to the value of £200.
    Pretty good investment!

  19. #69
    Grand Master Wallasey Runner's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2015
    Location
    Merry Old England
    Posts
    12,636
    A lot of rubbish out there. A guy has just listed two 1982 Fatboys both with 1980 dials.

    The same guy has another early watch and is giving the buyer the choice of having the dial put in upside down so the crown appears on the left hand side. I was going to message him and ask if he could put the movement in backwards so you can see the movement through the crystal
    Last edited by Wallasey Runner; 3rd May 2021 at 13:27.

  20. #70
    Master raysablade's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    Newcastle
    Posts
    5,014
    Hard to take a photo that explains why, but for the £650 I paid s/h the reissue is great value. If i lost it, and liking it as much as i do, I don't think i could avoid paying £900 for a replacement.

    You can't take this design any further, the bezel insert lifts the whole thing. I've had a few of the Broadarrows over the last 15 years and both quartz and automatic versions of the regular diver, this is better than any of them. I look at it and find my self saying "thats right". I can't price that.







    Apologies for the strap, curiosity got the better of me:)

  21. #71
    Craftsman
    Join Date
    Aug 2015
    Location
    Wiltshire UK
    Posts
    299
    Quote Originally Posted by Wallasey Runner View Post

    The same guy has another early watch and is giving the buyer the choice of having the dial put in upside down so the crown appears on the left hand side. I was going to message him and ask if he could put the movement in backwards so you can see the movement through the crystal
    I think that's the most missing-the-point and negative interpretation of destro ever written 😂😂😊😊😊

  22. #72
    Grand Master Wallasey Runner's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2015
    Location
    Merry Old England
    Posts
    12,636
    Quote Originally Posted by Brauner Hund View Post
    I think that's the most missing-the-point and negative interpretation of destro ever written 
    Go have a look at the Watch and examine the hands, then look at his other listings including two 1982 Fat boys with 1980 dials and tell me this is someone you would buy from.

    https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/114791020...oAAOSw5DpgOKir

    Unless it was you who listed this stuff

    When you've done that, you can remind me what the point was that I missed...

  23. #73
    Craftsman
    Join Date
    Aug 2015
    Location
    Wiltshire UK
    Posts
    299
    Quote Originally Posted by Wallasey Runner View Post
    Go have a look at the Watch and examine the hands, then look at his other listings including two 1982 Fat boys with 1980 dials and tell me this is someone you would buy from.

    https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/114791020...oAAOSw5DpgOKir

    Unless it was you who listed this stuff

    When you've done that, you can remind me what the point was that I missed...
    Sorry, I was being amused by you describing a destro watch as 'having the dial in upside down'.

    The destro thing is a 'tool' thing, that some think is a left hand thing... but really is mostly about not fouling the back of your hand .. if you want an instant illustration, put a dive watch loosely on your left wrist and give a punchbag one good left handed dig.... you'll understand straightaway :D :) :)
    Last edited by Brauner Hund; 6th May 2021 at 20:14.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

Do Not Sell My Personal Information