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Thread: Porsche Centre damaged my car... Updated with the outcome

  1. #351
    Grand Master wileeeeeey's Avatar
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    I wonder how far up Google this thread would rank if we all edited our posts to change PCL to Porsche Centre Leeds. Seeing this on Google when searching themselves might get the platinum mechanic out.

  2. #352
    Very true, but I was referring to different vintage cars for myself, personally, especially after all this debacle with Porsche.

  3. #353
    Quote Originally Posted by Ventura View Post
    Very true, but I was referring to different vintage cars for myself, personally, especially after all this debacle with Porsche.
    I choose to be pragmatic about this as I've had bad and good experiences with many other makes. To be fair, I love Porsches and I think this is purely down to one dealership, or the franchise, but I am sure there are more bad apples out there, just as there are good ones. The independent specialist who fixed my 930 (Sam Lander) did an incredible job and I've been driving the car almost daily since and it is amazing. The good thing about Porsche is that they still support their old cars by producing parts so they can be kept on the road and enjoyed as they should. My mistake was to think that the quality of the products made in Germany would translate to the quality of service in the UK (by a franchised dealer), which sadly proved untrue in this case. Lesson learned and I will go elsewhere in the future.

  4. #354
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    Quote Originally Posted by adigra View Post
    I choose to be pragmatic about this as I've had bad and good experiences with many other makes. To be fair, I love Porsches and I think this is purely down to one dealership, or the franchise, but I am sure there are more bad apples out there, just as there are good ones. The independent specialist who fixed my 930 (Sam Lander) did an incredible job and I've been driving the car almost daily since and it is amazing. The good thing about Porsche is that they still support their old cars by producing parts so they can be kept on the road and enjoyed as they should. My mistake was to think that the quality of the products made in Germany would translate to the quality of service in the UK (by a franchised dealer), which sadly proved untrue in this case. Lesson learned and I will go elsewhere in the future.
    That sums it up nicely.

    As you've said before - and say now again: you rate Sam Lander quite high. Right so: he has done a great job getting your 930 running again. Personally, I would turn to him in the future with both cars. In fact, in your position, I would ask Lander to check the car that's at PCL before you accept it back from PCL. Let them eat that humble pie. Gold technician or not, in the past, they've not been able to meet the simplest level of automotive craftsmanship. After completion, have it taken -by them- to Sam Lander's specialists shop for the technical check. Your own eye for detail will do the rest when it comes to cosmetics etc. Only after that, accept the car back.

  5. #355
    Grand Master Andyg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by adigra View Post
    I choose to be pragmatic about this as I've had bad and good experiences with many other makes. To be fair, I love Porsches and I think this is purely down to one dealership, or the franchise, but I am sure there are more bad apples out there, just as there are good ones. The independent specialist who fixed my 930 (Sam Lander) did an incredible job and I've been driving the car almost daily since and it is amazing. The good thing about Porsche is that they still support their old cars by producing parts so they can be kept on the road and enjoyed as they should. My mistake was to think that the quality of the products made in Germany would translate to the quality of service in the UK (by a franchised dealer), which sadly proved untrue in this case. Lesson learned and I will go elsewhere in the future.

    Great news. Glad you have found some who knows his onions. A reason why I have been using the same specialist for 19 years. The only downside is sometimes you have to be patient.

    Whoever does not know how to hit the nail on the head should be asked not to hit it at all.
    Friedrich Nietzsche


  6. #356
    Thank you for all the replies!

    I've actually never had much experience with main dealers before as I've mostly had quite old cars. Having had classics for the last 20 years, as well as my old RS4, I've had a lot of experience with independent specialists and it has been patchy to say the least. It was very hard to find people willing to investigate the cause of the problem rather than just treat the symptom by replacing parts. I had 4 sets of front discs, rebuilt and then completely replaced callipers in less than 6000 miles. Three different independent Audi and RS specialists just kept doing the same thing over and over and ignoring the fact that something deeper was causing the discs to warp.

    My 930, prior to my ownership, had Porsche Reading and two very known independents try to sort the starting issue I inherited, but again, just kept replacing parts (two starter motors, two CDI units, etc.) never sorting the issue. I then took it to another known independent who replaced a non-return valve and then put their hands up and said they lacked expertise to work on K-Jetronic fuel injection. That's when it went to PCL and you know how that went.

    It was only Sam Lander who got stuck in and connected the dots. A couple of days into it he called me and said how what he found will be frustrating for me, but even more frustrating for the previous owner who tried to have it fixed for five years.

    The only other experience I've had with a mechanic/engineer like that has been with John Sleath, the drag racer/car builder. I took my old Lotus Elan to him to set it up on his rolling road after no Lotus specialist could. He opened up the distributor, welded extra metal to the weights and got the curve spot on, then soldered the carb jets closed so he could re-drill them just perfectly. It ended up being the best set up Elan I've ever come across.

  7. #357
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    Any progress on the 997?

  8. #358
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    Quote Originally Posted by adigra View Post
    Thank you for all the replies!

    I've actually never had much experience with main dealers before as I've mostly had quite old cars. Having had classics for the last 20 years, as well as my old RS4, I've had a lot of experience with independent specialists and it has been patchy to say the least. It was very hard to find people willing to investigate the cause of the problem rather than just treat the symptom by replacing parts. I had 4 sets of front discs, rebuilt and then completely replaced callipers in less than 6000 miles. Three different independent Audi and RS specialists just kept doing the same thing over and over and ignoring the fact that something deeper was causing the discs to warp.

    My 930, prior to my ownership, had Porsche Reading and two very known independents try to sort the starting issue I inherited, but again, just kept replacing parts (two starter motors, two CDI units, etc.) never sorting the issue. I then took it to another known independent who replaced a non-return valve and then put their hands up and said they lacked expertise to work on K-Jetronic fuel injection. That's when it went to PCL and you know how that went.

    It was only Sam Lander who got stuck in and connected the dots. A couple of days into it he called me and said how what he found will be frustrating for me, but even more frustrating for the previous owner who tried to have it fixed for five years.

    The only other experience I've had with a mechanic/engineer like that has been with John Sleath, the drag racer/car builder. I took my old Lotus Elan to him to set it up on his rolling road after no Lotus specialist could. He opened up the distributor, welded extra metal to the weights and got the curve spot on, then soldered the carb jets closed so he could re-drill them just perfectly. It ended up being the best set up Elan I've ever come across.

    What was the actual cause of the problem with the 930?

    Whoever does not know how to hit the nail on the head should be asked not to hit it at all.
    Friedrich Nietzsche


  9. #359
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    At this stage Adi, I would be paying a local actor to dress up as Iron Man and re-enact the floor smash pose in PCL's reception.

  10. #360
    Sorry for not updating this. I've actually been enjoying the cars quite a bit the last couple of weeks that I haven't felt like thinking about all this.

    In a nutshell, the 997 is fixed, but I'm still pushing for going further up the chain within JCT in recognition of the past 7 months of repeated failures.

    The latest issue was a failed seal on the clutch pressure accumulator. They replaced the accumulator in April. Their Gold technician didn't know why it failed as apparently it can't be over tightened. I don't know what to make of it to be honest. Anyhow, it's back and seems to be fine. It will go to my independent mechanic for a service soon, so I'll have him inspect it properly and make sure everything is 100%.

  11. #361
    Quote Originally Posted by Andyg View Post
    What was the actual cause of the problem with the 930?
    Super nerdy answer!

    The starting problem was that the spacer pin on the K-Jetronic fuel injection air metering flap was not in the right place, which was allowing vapour lock. This was further compounded by the fact that the overboost relay wasn't cutting off the fuel pumps when it was supposed to, so they would run constantly as soon as the ignition was on even if the car was off (they are meant to prime and shut off).

    The cause for all of this was more interesting. At some point in the past that overboost relay started malfunctioning and someone had ran the car with a normal 12v relay, which allowed too much current to flow constantly through the cut off switch, which was arching and melted the plastic shim on the spacer pin allowing it to be pushed out of place. At some point the faulty relay was fitted back, but would allow the car to run only when it was malfunctioning and letting the pumps run constantly. Over the previous owner's 4 years of ownership, many different places tried to fix it by compensating for the faults with enriching the fuel mixture and increasing the pressure.

    What was really confusing the issues was that there were three distinct faults all having a knock on effect. Sometimes the car wouldn't start at all because the relay was doing its job, but if you moved it, it would disconnect a couple of the terminals and let the car run with the other faults. It was apparently way too difficult to diagnose... Sam Lander did it in a day, fixed it in a few days, and the car has been quite literally perfect ever since.

  12. #362
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    Quote Originally Posted by adigra View Post
    Sorry for not updating this. I've actually been enjoying the cars quite a bit the last couple of weeks that I haven't felt like thinking about all this.

    In a nutshell, the 997 is fixed, but I'm still pushing for going further up the chain within JCT in recognition of the past 7 months of repeated failures.

    The latest issue was a failed seal on the clutch pressure accumulator. They replaced the accumulator in April. Their Gold technician didn't know why it failed as apparently it can't be over tightened. I don't know what to make of it to be honest. Anyhow, it's back and seems to be fine. It will go to my independent mechanic for a service soon, so I'll have him inspect it properly and make sure everything is 100%.
    Wise move Adi.
    When you look long into an abyss, the abyss looks long into you.........

  13. #363
    Master thieuster's Avatar
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    Keep on enjoying them Adi!

  14. #364
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    Looks like a bit of light at the end of the tunnel... Let's hope its not a train comming.... Glad to hear they are starting to bring a little joy.

    Sent from my VOG-L09 using TZ-UK mobile app

  15. #365
    Grand Master Andyg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by adigra View Post
    Super nerdy answer!

    The starting problem was that the spacer pin on the K-Jetronic fuel injection air metering flap was not in the right place, which was allowing vapour lock. This was further compounded by the fact that the overboost relay wasn't cutting off the fuel pumps when it was supposed to, so they would run constantly as soon as the ignition was on even if the car was off (they are meant to prime and shut off).

    The cause for all of this was more interesting. At some point in the past that overboost relay started malfunctioning and someone had ran the car with a normal 12v relay, which allowed too much current to flow constantly through the cut off switch, which was arching and melted the plastic shim on the spacer pin allowing it to be pushed out of place. At some point the faulty relay was fitted back, but would allow the car to run only when it was malfunctioning and letting the pumps run constantly. Over the previous owner's 4 years of ownership, many different places tried to fix it by compensating for the faults with enriching the fuel mixture and increasing the pressure.

    What was really confusing the issues was that there were three distinct faults all having a knock on effect. Sometimes the car wouldn't start at all because the relay was doing its job, but if you moved it, it would disconnect a couple of the terminals and let the car run with the other faults. It was apparently way too difficult to diagnose... Sam Lander did it in a day, fixed it in a few days, and the car has been quite literally perfect ever since.

    Nice one 👍

    Whoever does not know how to hit the nail on the head should be asked not to hit it at all.
    Friedrich Nietzsche


  16. #366
    The update to this saga!

    First, I've had both cars back for a while and have been enjoying them quite a lot, so that is over with.

    However, I had been informed by Porsche GB that due to the continuing failure of Porsche Leeds to do anything to recognise the 7 months of their failures that I should speak to the JCT600 Porsche regional manager, so back when my 997 dumped all of the steering/clutch assistance fluid and had to be recovered, I asked the head of business to set up a meeting, which he agreed. Nothing happened, so I followed up, to be asked why I wanted to have the meeting. I didn't think it needed explaining, but I did. I was told that the regional manager is very busy and travels around the North, but that they would arrange a time. After that didn't happen, I followed up to be told that he is not going to meet with me as he doesn't meet with customers. The head of business seemed to want that to be the end of it.

    After a while I decided to write a public review, but I called Porsche GB to give them the opportunity if they wanted to speak to me beforehand as they might be concerned how their brand is being represented. I was told they would prefer I didn't go public, but that my experience with PCL was "disgusting" so it's understandable. I was told who the executive at Porsche GB was who would be the right person to talk to, but was informed that this was unlikely to happen as he was "very busy" but that I might get an email of acknowledgement... This didn't happen.

    So, about a month later, yesterday, I posted a review on Google and shared it on my Facebook and Instagram (about 140k followers). Well... first a sales executive got in touch, then the head of business asking if we could meet, then a phonecall from that Porsche GB executive who was too busy before. He and I ended up talking for quite a while. I challenged him on only calling me after the review, which we discussed. He agreed with my review and said it was actually quite measured. He said he was appalled that I was refused a meeting with the regional manager, etc., etc. I told him I had given everyone the opportunity and the heads up regarding going public, I not only gave them time, I gave them months. He seemed well aware of my case and said it had reached the highest levels at Porsche and that there will be serious discussions to be had (so serious in fact I was a bit shocked at first, but I won't go into them as it's probably not the right avenue). Big classic car guy and he seemed delighted to learn we'll both be at the NEC show in November as he would like to meet with me and a few other of the Porsche people. Generally he seemed completely horrified at how Porsche as a brand have come across in all of this.

    It might all be waffle, but the review seems to have really rattled the cage. I told him I am not after anything other than exactly what he was doing, a sign that Porsche the brand care for loyal owners or how this all reflect on them.

    Anyhow, the review is under my name for Porsche Centre Leeds if anyone would like to read it. It's quite summarised, but I tried to keep it to the point as much as possible as there was 7 months of crazy detail.

  17. #367
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    I’d tell them all to Foxtrot Oscar.
    They didn’t particularly care to do the right thing when they had the car, now they’ve had a public bad review they come grovelling.

  18. #368
    Bit insulting when it takes a social media post to kick things up a gear, especially so when you've played everything internal to the extent you have with no prior response.

    The only conclusion I can come to is that they were hoping you'd get bored of it all and give up! That's quite damning.

  19. #369
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    You have handled yourself like a gentleman throughout, well done - I do not feel I could have managed to, even with a lowly CGTS vs your (and my!) dream cars as a child.

    I do despair of companies only responding after a review, but I hope you have managed to wake the brand up that there are enthusiasts out there who really love their cars.

    Off to read your review now!

    No temptation of an illustration of Iron Man smashing PCL building up? :D

  20. #370
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    Congrats Adi - it's clear you're not looking for compensation but how about when you meet up at the NEC you mention perhaps some Porsche freebies would be useful for a good cause fundraiser?
    AND, Please top your ceramic coating with a good quality wax.

  21. #371
    Master thieuster's Avatar
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    I don my hat for you; for your polite behavior and your patience. Your softly spoken words in the past must have put them off guard, not knowing about your long list of followers.

    Still, it says a lot about Porsche: not wanting to communicate with individual buyers. You managed to break their walls of conceit. 99% of the customers would not be able to do it.

    Then: meeting at the NEC… The litmus proof will be: does that Porsche person ask for a drawing or not!!! (In that case he’s not at the NEC for you but for himself).

    Just keep enjoying your cars!!!

    ----

    Update: I just read your review. Like others said: very polite.

    I discussed this with my wife. She owns - since 2004- a coms and marketing consultancy for multinational companies in the healthcare business. She told me that the review must have set off a bunch of alarm bells in Germany. Big-name companies with lots of (positive) reviews from all over the world use specialized software that filter out all negative reviews. Filter out for reading by a real person. With a 'red button on the desk', so to speak. You can be sure that your review has been read word-by-word(!) at the Porsche HQ: long, detailed, traceable facts and still a polite tone of voice. And to make things worse (for Porsche): your 140K followers.
    Last edited by thieuster; 29th September 2021 at 08:18.

  22. #372
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    I notice the guy - Simon - who replied to your review didn't put his full name or position at the OPC. A rather gutless and disingenuous response I thought. But great to hear that you may yet have a decent conversation with someone of influence. Good luck!

  23. #373
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    Yes as below and hoping you get satisfactory closure from the meeting and a positive to take away, that this sort of behaviour can't be repeated to other customers in the future

  24. #374
    Quote Originally Posted by JonRA View Post
    I notice the guy - Simon - who replied to your review didn't put his full name or position at the OPC. A rather gutless and disingenuous response I thought. But great to hear that you may yet have a decent conversation with someone of influence. Good luck!
    He's the Head of Business at PCL.

  25. #375
    Grand Master wileeeeeey's Avatar
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    Just popped over to Google maps to mark your review as helpful.

    As I've said before you have the patience of a saint and have been incredibly measured throughout.

  26. #376
    I don't really expect a specific closure as I won't have the time and the stress back, but I also will not walk away quietly. It was quite clear that they were desperate to never hear from me again. In the end if nothing else comes from it, the fact that they are forced to have these conversations with Porsche GB and within JCT, will at least mean someone will have to accept responsibilities for the wasted labour and the cost of parts they had to pay for to rectify their own mistakes. It's all backed up by internal invoices which I have copies of, so there is no hiding from the facts.

    Plus, on a very personal level, being asked to gift them free work, considering the circumstances, really irritated me. As the guy from Porsche GB said yesterday, it's crass and would be like walking into PCL asking for free servicing.

  27. #377
    Presumably without your decent online following you'd still be struggling to hear from Porsche. Social media has it's uses

    An average person with 50 followers or no socials at all would be left chasing their tail even more than you have.

    You've certainly handled yourself and the situation well. Most would have lost patience months ago.

    Hands up who's happy to use PC Leeds after reading all this?

  28. #378
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    A very succinct review of a litany of errors. They have been unprofessional and deceitful and to cap it off tried to ignore the issues with no consideration of how this mess would effect you, from the time wasted to stress of being punted from one issue to another.
    Glad you are back in the cars, one of my best distractions is getting out and driving a good road, hopefully you can now do the same (best be quick before the winter sets in)

  29. #379
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    May I ask for a link to the review, please. In Leeds I keep getting Power, Corruption and Lies which may be appropriate but is not what I am looking for.
    'Against stupidity, the gods themselves struggle in vain' - Schiller.

  30. #380
    Quote Originally Posted by Saint-Just View Post
    May I ask for a link to the review, please. In Leeds I keep getting Power, Corruption and Lies which may be appropriate but is not what I am looking for.
    It's just a google review for Porsche Centre Leeds https://www.google.com/maps/reviews/...daf48?hl=en-GB

  31. #381
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    Thank you Adi.
    'Against stupidity, the gods themselves struggle in vain' - Schiller.

  32. #382
    I was the 151st person to "find the review helpful", that was maybe an hour ago and it's on 166 as I type - no other review, that I can see, has had such a response.

    No doubt that there'll be others from here as well, either way that's some groundswell and one that needs to be taken notice of.

  33. #383
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    Quote Originally Posted by CardShark View Post
    I was the 151st person to "find the review helpful", that was maybe an hour ago and it's on 166 as I type - no other review, that I can see, has had such a response.

    No doubt that there'll be others from here as well, either way that's some groundswell and one that needs to be taken notice of.
    A very fair review. I wonder how it would have been addressed without the social media following ... seems to me that don't much care for customers.

  34. #384
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    A remarkably measured account of the nonsense, in my view. I've marked it as "helpful", which it is - as a reminder that OPCs cannot be trusted with classics, and that the whole "Porsche Klassik" malarkey is simply a marketing tool, not indicative of any real expertise. I do hope you get some sort of satisfaction in the end, after all the stress and wasted time. As I've said before, you clearly have the patience of Job!

  35. #385
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    Quote Originally Posted by CardShark View Post
    I was the 151st person to "find the review helpful", that was maybe an hour ago and it's on 166 as I type - no other review, that I can see, has had such a response.

    No doubt that there'll be others from here as well, either way that's some groundswell and one that needs to be taken notice of.

    I was number 215!!

    Shocking service from a company that seems to want your money and give F.A. in return apart from grief

    I think the OP must have the patience of a saint!


    John..

  36. #386
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    How immensely satisfying at the end of such a long saga of disappointment to be able to hit back with the clout provided by a 140k follower base

    I read the review and it leaves no wiggle room. They've been caught with their pants around their ankles.

  37. #387
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    Ridiculous reply by Simon to the review. PCL should have responded with more than that.

  38. #388
    that should be the start of it imo , i'd be posting the same thing on the first 50 or so hits on any search engine for Porsche inc forums , the response from 'simon' is comedic - then again its what i'd expect after reading your problems with multiple cars and hes probably been told to stop digging himself any deeper.

  39. #389
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    I'm number 229!

    well it's 'good' to see that Porsche GB treat everyone as badly, having been handled in a less than professional manner as long ago as 2003 when my brand new Cayenne turned into a clowns car with bits falling off and not working.

    delighted for you that the cars are both working and you can now entrust indies who will hopefully look after them as you would want.

    PCL & PGB are a bunch of money grabbing sharks & you have handled yourself impeccably throughout this saga!

  40. #390
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mj2k View Post
    Ridiculous reply by Simon to the review. PCL should have responded with more than that.
    On what site has he left his reply? I couldn’t see any replies on the Google review.

  41. #391
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    Quote Originally Posted by jaytip View Post
    On what site has he left his reply? I couldn’t see any replies on the Google review.

  42. #392
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    No. 236 here and I echo the comments about your patience. I'm not one for undue retribution on any business but given their inadequate responses to date I could easily persuade myself that wider distribution of your review was my public duty to any other potential customers.

    The power of social media is only going to increase.

  43. #393
    The funny thing about that reply by Simon is that I've been waiting for him to follow up on his promises for two months, especially the meeting with the regional manager, and I've had to call him twice about it in that time without any movement on his part. The promised Silverstone experience also never materialised. He's had my number all this time too, so that reply is as pointless as it is rude.

  44. #394
    Grand Master wileeeeeey's Avatar
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    I did think that Adi. I read his reply and thought it was for the benefit of him via the audience rather than anything to do with him and you.

    Purely there to make you seem like all you had to do was give him a call or drop him a line and didn't, trying to make you seem like a bunny boiler. Quite the snake he is.

  45. #395
    Grand Master Saint-Just's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by adigra View Post
    The funny thing about that reply by Simon is that I've been waiting for him to follow up on his promises for two months, especially the meeting with the regional manager, and I've had to call him twice about it in that time without any movement on his part. The promised Silverstone experience also never materialised. He's had my number all this time too, so that reply is as pointless as it is rude.
    I would even suggest that you should post the above as a reply to his reply.
    'Against stupidity, the gods themselves struggle in vain' - Schiller.

  46. #396
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saint-Just View Post
    I would even suggest that you should post the above as a reply to his reply.
    My thought too.

    Sent from my SM-N975F using Tapatalk

  47. #397
    I was going to do it, but there seems to be a character limit on google reviews, so I could only add a few words. I did send him a message and told him what I think of his reply.

    I'll leave him to it now. They are not worth speaking to any more as they are not people of good character or integrity, so I'll leave it up to Porsche GB to deal with.

  48. #398
    Grand Master Saint-Just's Avatar
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    Apr 2007
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    Quote Originally Posted by adigra View Post
    I was going to do it, but there seems to be a character limit on google reviews, so I could only add a few words. I did send him a message and told him what I think of his reply.

    I'll leave him to it now. They are not worth speaking to any more as they are not people of good character or integrity, so I'll leave it up to Porsche GB to deal with.
    Alternatively one of us could post this response in your name...
    'Against stupidity, the gods themselves struggle in vain' - Schiller.

  49. #399
    Master
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    Aug 2013
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jon Kenney View Post
    Thank you.

  50. #400
    Master
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
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    Winchester
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    Quote Originally Posted by adigra View Post

    The final thing, which I was going to keep to myself, but I don't really feel any reason to any more, is that when the principal was returning the 930 to me, he requested I do an Iron Man drawing for his son. I was polite, but very clear about the fact that he was asking me for a valuable piece of art, not something as simple as a signature (which other people at the dealership had done before). I am not sure if he had fully understood what he was doing as people make this mistake all the time, but if I am putting pencil to paper that is how I earn my living and a drawing of Iron Man by me is worth quite a bit more than any free parts they might've fitted to my car as a gesture of good will. It was a very odd situation as he was returning a car to me which they damaged, with the original problem not addressed, 4 and a half months later, but was asking me for a free piece of art.
    Now had you been a proctologist....

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