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Thread: Porsche Centre damaged my car... Updated with the outcome

  1. #251
    Master thieuster's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by adigra View Post
    RDJ got an R8 as a gift after the first film. I didn't!
    Well, Audi can still change their mind when they hear (read) about this Porsche / PCL debacle... My youngest is a big fan of your work, so I copy/pasted your line where you tell why Iron Man is in an Audi. He's so happy to know this sort of details! On his behalf: thanks!

    I hadn't kept up with this thread after Adi's posting some weeks back that everything was okay. And I wondered why this thread was still running and kept on adding pages. Now I understand! What a horrible thing. A few weeks back, I almost wanted to write: "Shame you don't live here in the Netherlands, the guys at the workshop would be glad to work on your cars!" But the message is the same: start looking for an indie who cares. Like the one who solved the hot starting problem.

    My wife runs a consultancy business and she always told (and tells): "...an employee is as good as his (her) boss." When the management is bad, the lower levels are never better or even worse. The whole 'I'm not bothered telling my superior I made a mistake' and 'I have no idea how to fix this problem' attitude is the direct result from PCL's faulty management. It's wrong at every level. In the shop, when communicating, and the 'oh, can you make a drawing' tops it all!
    Let's assume a famous athlete enters PCL. On a good day, the manager politely asks the athlete for a signature for his son on a piece of paper or on a pic with the athlete. But when you come in, he asks for a drawing because he thinks 'it's only a piece of paper and some pencil stripes' He has no idea what the impact of your work is! He's not able to put himself in another person's (your) position. He cannot comprehend the fact that your work is art. It's almost insulting.

    Menno
    Last edited by thieuster; 6th June 2021 at 20:51.

  2. #252
    I'm glad you guys understand the art thing. I come across it a lot where people think doing a drawing must be fun for me so I'll be happy to do it for them for free. Neighbours, friends of friends, my dentist... I still have to explain that if I am going to do something for free then I'd rather do something actually fun for me, not another Iron Man for them. It's particularly insulting when it's for their kid as they themselves don't really have an interest in what I do at all, but it will score them points with their kid... I mean, sure, but you can pay for it.

    As for Porsche, I just want to draw a line under PCL and I thought I had, but I will definitely not let them off the hook with the damage they've done. I should be meeting with the principal tomorrow.

  3. #253
    Grand Master Chris_in_the_UK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by adigra View Post
    I'm glad you guys understand the art thing. I come across it a lot where people think doing a drawing must be fun for me so I'll be happy to do it for them for free. Neighbours, friends of friends, my dentist... I still have to explain that if I am going to do something for free then I'd rather do something actually fun for me, not another Iron Man for them. It's particularly insulting when it's for their kid as they themselves don't really have an interest in what I do at all, but it will score them points with their kid... I mean, sure, but you can pay for it.

    As for Porsche, I just want to draw a line under PCL and I thought I had, but I will definitely not let them off the hook with the damage they've done. I should be meeting with the principal tomorrow.
    My wife's son has just got a job with a marketing company on the back of his artwork and creativity (he has done a few album covers) and is fiercely protective of his work and ideas - and so should anybody with those talents.

    Best of luck drawing a line under this.
    When you look long into an abyss, the abyss looks long into you.........

  4. #254
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    Quote Originally Posted by adigra View Post
    I'm glad you guys understand the art thing. I come across it a lot where people think doing a drawing must be fun for me so I'll be happy to do it for them for free. Neighbours, friends of friends, my dentist... I still have to explain that if I am going to do something for free then I'd rather do something actually fun for me, not another Iron Man for them. It's particularly insulting when it's for their kid as they themselves don't really have an interest in what I do at all, but it will score them points with their kid... I mean, sure, but you can pay for it.

    As for Porsche, I just want to draw a line under PCL and I thought I had, but I will definitely not let them off the hook with the damage they've done. I should be meeting with the principal tomorrow.
    As a marketer there is nothing more frustrating than seeing creatives taking advantage of. "Could you do X for us, it would be great for your portfolio" is the most frustrating sentence in the industry.

    I've seen great creative for marketing purposes, it takes talent and time and neither are free.

    The disrespect shown here is frustrating without the way you have been treated.

    Sent from my Pixel 5 using Tapatalk

  5. #255
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris_in_the_UK View Post
    Best of luck drawing a line under this.
    Yes, a line he can do

    Adi, there a story about Picasso having lunch in a small restaurant with paper napkins. I cannot remember what it was but the waiter asked him how he would draw that. So he drew in a corner of the napkin, and then tore the corner off.
    The waiter asked if he could have it and Picasso said sure, itís (insert large amount in francs). The waiter was completely dumbfounded and said something along the lines of ďbut it only took you a few minutes ď.
    Picasso answered: ďno, it took me my whole lifeĒ.
    'Against stupidity, the gods themselves struggle in vain' - Schiller.

  6. #256
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saint-Just View Post
    Yes, a line he can do

    Adi, there a story about Picasso having lunch in a small restaurant with paper napkins. I cannot remember what it was but the waiter asked him how he would draw that. So he drew in a corner of the napkin, and then tore the corner off.
    The waiter asked if he could have it and Picasso said sure, itís (insert large amount in francs). The waiter was completely dumbfounded and said something along the lines of ďbut it only took you a few minutes ď.
    Picasso answered: ďno, it took me my whole lifeĒ.
    Very good.
    When you look long into an abyss, the abyss looks long into you.........

  7. #257
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    Quote Originally Posted by adigra View Post
    I'm glad you guys understand the art thing. I come across it a lot where people think doing a drawing must be fun for me so I'll be happy to do it for them for free. Neighbours, friends of friends, my dentist... I still have to explain that if I am going to do something for free then I'd rather do something actually fun for me, not another Iron Man for them. It's particularly insulting when it's for their kid as they themselves don't really have an interest in what I do at all, but it will score them points with their kid... I mean, sure, but you can pay for it.

    As for Porsche, I just want to draw a line under PCL and I thought I had, but I will definitely not let them off the hook with the damage they've done. I should be meeting with the principal tomorrow.
    https://youtu.be/SqTIrYK4BX4

    Reminds me of this. Could you just photocopy a 100 times and hand them when needed.

  8. #258
    I try not to be too harsh on people who ask as they often don't have a concept of what they are asking for, and I get it so frequently (as do all of my colleagues), that it's just a part of the noise. I would have, however, expected the principal of a major business to have a bit more awareness.

    When I first started doing conventions and signings I used to do quick free sketches for the fans for a couple of hours a day, and then more detailed drawings I would charge for. I've never had any issues over the paid for ones, but the grief I used to get over the free ones was amazing. People were sharing the images on line and complaining that the free ones weren't of the same standard as the paid for ones. Out of context, to an outsider it would just look like my standard of work was inconsistent. Especially as a lot of the free ones were being resold on ebay for the same prices I was charging for the more detailed drawings. Something I thought was a nice gesture turned out to be quite detrimental, so I've not done any free drawings since.

    So, it's difficult to explain to someone that I have certain standards and if they are asking for a "quick drawing" it means they are asking for a significant amount of my time and brain power in order to create something worth putting my name to. As in the Larry David clip above, if you ask a doctor for advice I am sure they want to uphold their professional standards and not give you a quick diagnosis which would not only be bad for you but quite detrimental to their profession.

  9. #259
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    Quote Originally Posted by adigra View Post
    I try not to be too harsh on people who ask as they often don't have a concept of what they are asking for, and I get it so frequently (as do all of my colleagues), that it's just a part of the noise. I would have, however, expected the principal of a major business to have a bit more awareness.

    When I first started doing conventions and signings I used to do quick free sketches for the fans for a couple of hours a day, and then more detailed drawings I would charge for. I've never had any issues over the paid for ones, but the grief I used to get over the free ones was amazing. People were sharing the images on line and complaining that the free ones weren't of the same standard as the paid for ones. Out of context, to an outsider it would just look like my standard of work was inconsistent. Especially as a lot of the free ones were being resold on ebay for the same prices I was charging for the more detailed drawings. Something I thought was a nice gesture turned out to be quite detrimental, so I've not done any free drawings since.

    So, it's difficult to explain to someone that I have certain standards and if they are asking for a "quick drawing" it means they are asking for a significant amount of my time and brain power in order to create something worth putting my name to. As in the Larry David clip above, if you ask a doctor for advice I am sure they want to uphold their professional standards and not give you a quick diagnosis which would not only be bad for you but quite detrimental to their profession.
    Youíre completely right to stick to your guns on this - my cousin was an artist (wildlife) and people often expected/wanted to get free sketches etc from him. They all failed to understand that this was his living, same as it is for you.

  10. #260
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    Quote Originally Posted by adigra View Post
    I try not to be too harsh on people who ask as they often don't have a concept of what they are asking for, and I get it so frequently (as do all of my colleagues), that it's just a part of the noise. I would have, however, expected the principal of a major business to have a bit more awareness.

    When I first started doing conventions and signings I used to do quick free sketches for the fans for a couple of hours a day, and then more detailed drawings I would charge for. I've never had any issues over the paid for ones, but the grief I used to get over the free ones was amazing. People were sharing the images on line and complaining that the free ones weren't of the same standard as the paid for ones. Out of context, to an outsider it would just look like my standard of work was inconsistent. Especially as a lot of the free ones were being resold on ebay for the same prices I was charging for the more detailed drawings. Something I thought was a nice gesture turned out to be quite detrimental, so I've not done any free drawings since.

    So, it's difficult to explain to someone that I have certain standards and if they are asking for a "quick drawing" it means they are asking for a significant amount of my time and brain power in order to create something worth putting my name to. As in the Larry David clip above, if you ask a doctor for advice I am sure they want to uphold their professional standards and not give you a quick diagnosis which would not only be bad for you but quite detrimental to their profession.
    I really donít think there is any need to explain yourself here. If I were you I wouldnít do a single Ďfreebieí unless it was for someone I liked and trusted implicitly. Itís your livelihood / brand and you have every right to protect it.

    Have you ever been contacted by any of our legendary hoovers here for something?

  11. #261
    Cars really do get into your soul, what's they've done is soil your ownership and it hurts , hard to explain to non-car lovers. I hope there is a happy ending to this which can only mean you are able to drive your cars and forget this ever happened .

    Sent from my Pixel 5 using Tapatalk

  12. #262
    Quote Originally Posted by adigra View Post
    I try not to be too harsh on people who ask as they often don't have a concept of what they are asking for, and I get it so frequently (as do all of my colleagues), that it's just a part of the noise. I would have, however, expected the principal of a major business to have a bit more awareness.
    Maybe it's a case of naivety with regards to such requests though I'm still surprised that the Principal thought it acceptable to ask something from you after everything his dealership has been responsible for, I wouldn't even be asking for an autograph. I think I'd even struggle to look you in the eye!

    I remain extremely impressed with the way you have both expressed your feelings about this sorry saga and the way you are dealing with the situation as it unfolds. Your objective approach is quite admirable all things considered, I know that ultimately they're inanimate objects however it's the complete lack of respect and breakdown of trust that I'd find difficult to deal with.

  13. #263
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    blimey, can't believe this is still ongoing.

    after issues with OPC as long ago as 16 years with a brand new Cayenne that fell apart like a clowns car, I've never bought new again and lease for work with a 996 turbo for fun.

    when reading the latest I just said to myself "unf***ingbelievable" to every aspect of this sorry tale; including the artwork.

  14. #264
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    Quote Originally Posted by CardShark View Post
    I remain extremely impressed with the way you have both expressed your feelings about this sorry saga and the way you are dealing with the situation as it unfolds. Your objective approach is quite admirable all things considered......
    I have read this thread and watched it sadly keep coming back from the dead every time it seems like things are finally resolved.
    I think the CardShark quote above pretty much sums up my feelings too.

    I would be bouncing off the walls at this point with rage!
    If I was wearing a hat, I would doff it to you Adi.

  15. #265
    Had a long meeting with the PCL principal. I am actually a bit too exhausted to describe it in detail, but he has accepted all responsibility and offered no excuses, but we've been here before. Going forward I was assured only their "gold technician" will work on the car and I will have direct access to him. Basically it looks like everything they've done will have to be redone. He has assured me that he knowns how damaging to their reputation this has been and can continue to be. I was very scathing of the people I've been dealing with and the service I've received and he said he couldn't argue with any of it.

    As a part of this insane situation, I've been asking them to fix the Pentosin oil overflow for 8 months, and every time was told it was just overfilled. I told them they need to replace the clutch slave cylinder and got as far as having them order it and promise me they will do it. They never did, so it's still leaking and has soaked the entire area under the overflow tank and ruined two pieces of plastic trim (as Pentosin melts plastic). When I questioned why this wasn't done I was told they have to follow Porsche procedures and they didn't find anything wrong... I was today given printouts of their procedure to deal with clutch issues and on the very first line it says:

    1. Clutch: Checking fluid levels


    If the front Pentosin reservoir has overflowed, the clutch slave cylinder is defective and must be replaced.

    Next to it hand written note says "OK when checked".

    That's it! Even though in the previous three reports going back to October, they note that the oil has overflowed. I am not sure how much more clear the instructions could be in their own damn manual, It's literally "If A is this, do B, the end" but somehow they found a way to ignore them.

    It completely boggles my mind.

  16. #266
    Perhaps you could draw them a picture called Arse and Elbow with arrows to aid their level of comprehension

  17. #267
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    Maybe it's time Porsche UK arranged for the car to be uplifted and taken to a dealership they have faith in, billing PCL for any cost?
    It must be incredibly embarrassing for Porsche UK to admit that they can't keep their own cars in shape.
    Last edited by Suds; 7th June 2021 at 17:17.

  18. #268
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    Quote Originally Posted by Suds View Post
    Maybe it's time Porsche UK arranged for the car to be uplifted and taken to a dealership they have faith in, billing PCL for any cost?
    It must be incredibly embarrassing for Porsche UK to admit that they can't keep their own cars in shape.
    As above, thatís a great channel to explore, very embarrassing I would guess

  19. #269
    Quote Originally Posted by Suds View Post
    Maybe it's time Porsche UK arranged for the car to be uplifted and taken to a dealership they have faith in, billing PCL for any cost?
    It must be incredibly embarrassing for Porsche UK to admit that they can't keep their own cars in shape.
    I have actually started this conversation with Porsche GB about the possibility of moving the car to their Reading HQ, but they have also offered their own technicians to help PCL. I think there is a lot of politics involved and it's a very tricky situation for them, which isn't my problem, so I will do whatever will get me the best outcome.

    They have given me a Merc E-class Hybrid Diesel, in black with tinted windows, which is about as far from the kind of car I would usually drive that it's quite fun.

  20. #270
    Itís interesting that this is still going on, different organisations handle problems differently, my Merc has developed a problem, some of the lacquer is peeling in the front of the car, Lancaster Mercedes (Jardine) very quickly have booked the car in to completely repaint the front of the car at their expense,

  21. #271
    Quote Originally Posted by adrianw View Post
    Itís interesting that this is still going on, different organisations handle problems differently, my Merc has developed a problem, some of the lacquer is peeling in the front of the car, Lancaster Mercedes (Jardine) very quickly have booked the car in to completely repaint the front of the car at their expense,
    A new car under warranty? Slightly different situation I'd say, the dealer would be making some money from Mercedes themselves I would have thought.

    Edit - ah, I presume you meant the dealership's own expense, now I've read it again?

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  22. #272
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    Quote Originally Posted by adigra View Post
    I have actually started this conversation with Porsche GB about the possibility of moving the car to their Reading HQ, but they have also offered their own technicians to help PCL. I think there is a lot of politics involved and it's a very tricky situation for them, which isn't my problem, so I will do whatever will get me the best outcome.

    They have given me a Merc E-class Hybrid Diesel, in black with tinted windows, which is about as far from the kind of car I would usually drive that it's quite fun.
    Sorry to keep reading about your woes. It really saddens me as a massive Porsche fan.

    I find it a little odd they gave you a Merc?! (Unless in you happened to request it, then I take it back).

  23. #273
    Quote Originally Posted by rico View Post
    Sorry to keep reading about your woes. It really saddens me as a massive Porsche fan.

    I find it a little odd they gave you a Merc?! (Unless in you happened to request it, then I take it back).
    There is a bit of a story about the courtesy cars as well...

    I've been told ever since the pandemic started they don't do them, at all. I then found out in February that they did, but were just at reduced capacity, so I demanded one and was offered a Skoda Citygo. Nothing wrong with it, I quite like them, but I was quite pissed off at that stage that I said not good enough, so they provided me with an Enterprise rental Audi A3 which was overdue a service and low on oil. I informed them of this and the service advisor asked me to top it up myself. Then the brakes started rumbling, so on one of my many trips to PCL they inspected them and said they were fine... Anyhow, after they gave me my 997 back I was very happy to get out of that poor A3.

    The principal called me this morning to say that he couldn't get me a car until tomorrow, but I said I wanted to come in anyhow. About 5 minutes later he called back to tell me he sourced a Mercedes for me and was asking if that was OK. Anyhow, apparently they would've had a Porsche for me tomorrow, but this was the only option today. Looking around the car, it seems to be owned by PCL is but serviced by Mercedes Sheffield, which is another JCT600 dealership. I can't decide whether I look more like a drug dealer or a private hire driver in it.

    This whole thing is like some really shitty soap opera.

  24. #274
    Quote Originally Posted by CardShark View Post
    A new car under warranty? Slightly different situation I'd say, the dealer would be making some money from Mercedes themselves I would have thought.

    Edit - ah, I presume you meant the dealership's own expense, now I've read it again?

    Sent from my SM-A515F using Tapatalk
    Itís just out of warranty

  25. #275
    Grand Master jwg663's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by adrianw View Post
    Itís interesting that this is still going on, different organisations handle problems differently, my Merc has developed a problem, some of the lacquer is peeling in the front of the car, Lancaster Mercedes (Jardine) very quickly have booked the car in to completely repaint the front of the car at their expense,
    Quote Originally Posted by CardShark View Post
    A new car under warranty? Slightly different situation I'd say, the dealer would be making some money from Mercedes themselves I would have thought.

    Edit - ah, I presume you meant the dealership's own expense, now I've read it again?
    Quote Originally Posted by adrianw View Post
    Itís just out of warranty
    I think Mercedes' bodywork warranty is for 10 years if the car is serviced by them.
    ______

    ​Jim.

  26. #276
    Quote Originally Posted by jwg663 View Post
    I think Mercedes' bodywork warranty is for 10 years if the car is serviced by them.
    Only on new cars, I bought it used, then it is only a perforation warranty, they didnít have to do a thing

  27. #277
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    Quote Originally Posted by adigra View Post
    There is a bit of a story about the courtesy cars as well...

    I've been told ever since the pandemic started they don't do them, at all. I then found out in February that they did, but were just at reduced capacity, so I demanded one and was offered a Skoda Citygo. Nothing wrong with it, I quite like them, but I was quite pissed off at that stage that I said not good enough, so they provided me with an Enterprise rental Audi A3 which was overdue a service and low on oil. I informed them of this and the service advisor asked me to top it up myself. Then the brakes started rumbling, so on one of my many trips to PCL they inspected them and said they were fine... Anyhow, after they gave me my 997 back I was very happy to get out of that poor A3.

    The principal called me this morning to say that he couldn't get me a car until tomorrow, but I said I wanted to come in anyhow. About 5 minutes later he called back to tell me he sourced a Mercedes for me and was asking if that was OK. Anyhow, apparently they would've had a Porsche for me tomorrow, but this was the only option today. Looking around the car, it seems to be owned by PCL is but serviced by Mercedes Sheffield, which is another JCT600 dealership. I can't decide whether I look more like a drug dealer or a private hire driver in it.

    This whole thing is like some really shitty soap opera.
    Sadly when Jack Tordoff stopped being at the helm and his son took over the reigns it has not blossomed. JCT600 Porsche is a distant memory (and they were not without issues!).

    It is just pi$$ poor whichever way this is looked at - a multi brand, multi site car dealership group cannot get a loan car?. It is beyond a joke.

    Have you thought of going direct to JCT600 Head Office?.
    Last edited by Chris_in_the_UK; 7th June 2021 at 21:53.
    When you look long into an abyss, the abyss looks long into you.........

  28. #278
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    We were discussing this whole story during this morning's coffee break in the workshop. I read (and translated) parts of this drama to the guys. One of the mechanics worked for a Porsche indie in Hamburg for a few years as a Porsche Certified Technician and then for an indie here in the Netherlands (Lammertink). He told us that a 930's hot start issue is not uncommon... It usually breaks down to three of four things, and include the steps your independent has taken to find the fault.

    A lot of the technicians in a modern Porsche workshop are no better mechanics than the ones working for a simpler brand like Kia or (what we drive): Honda. It's the company that charges a higher hour rate. These mechanics are trained to work on modern cars, with modern issues. Often leading to 'replace the part.' Real fault-finding or repairing is something most haven't done. An example: the largest Porsche dealer here (Porsche Gelderland) has its own Classic Car Center. That CCC is factory endorsed etc. It looks good and it sounds good. But... that dealer is struggling to find mechanics who're capable of working on older cars! They cannot find mechanics with a competent skill set! Another reason they cannot find those technicians: these guys are aware of their uniqueness (able to repair older cars), their wages and the labour rate Porsche is charging to customers. There's too much between the hour rate and what they get at the end of the month.

    M.
    Last edited by thieuster; 7th June 2021 at 22:31.

  29. #279
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    Have you flamed Tom Armstrong, @armstrongtom, Porsche Brand Director at JCT600?

  30. #280
    Quote Originally Posted by thieuster View Post
    We were discussing this whole story during this morning's coffee break in the workshop. I read (and translated) parts of this drama to the guys. One of the mechanics worked for a Porsche indie in Hamburg for a few years as a Porsche Certified Technician and then for an indie here in the Netherlands (Lammertink). He told us that a 930's hot start issue is not uncommon... It usually breaks down to three of four things, and include the steps your independent has taken to find the fault.

    A lot of the technicians in a modern Porsche workshop are no better mechanics than the ones working for a simpler brand like Kia or (what we drive): Honda. It's the company that charges a higher hour rate. These mechanics are trained to work on modern cars, with modern issues. Often leading to 'replace the part.' Real fault-finding or repairing is something most haven't done. An example: the largest Porsche dealer here (Porsche Gelderland) has its own Classic Car Center. That CCC is factory endorsed etc. It looks good and it sounds good. But... that dealer is struggling to find mechanics who're capable of working on older cars! They cannot find mechanics with a competent skill set! Another reason they cannot find those technicians: these guys are aware of their uniqueness (able to repair older cars), their wages and the labour rate Porsche is charging to customers. There's too much between the hour rate and what they get at the end of the month.

    M.
    All of this rings very true! I fell for the whole Classic Car Centre thing as it's factory endorsed. Only later did they admit that the restorations are done in Germany, they are basically just a sales and service centre. There have been a few very uncomfortable conversations about this (due to my car being sent offsite as they lacked expertise). Luckily I've been able to draw a satisfactory line under the 930 and they will never see it again.

    There is a lot of movement on the 997 and the whole Pentosin/Clutch Slave Cylinder fiasco has been accepted as a total failure on their part, which was never in question as their own records show it going back to last October. The damage has been accepted as "clear to see", etc. Sadly there is quite a lot of work to be done now, so I am probably in for a long wait again.

  31. #281
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    God's hole, Adi - what a massive disappointment. I fondly imagined that things were sorted and you were merrily driving your lovely cars off into the sunset. Should've known better where a main dealer is concerned, I suppose.

    I'm shocked by the crassness of the request for art; that has to be the most tone-deaf interaction conceivable, given the circumstances. Someone called it "adding insult to injury" and honestly that is the situation. I'm amazed that you kept your temper!

    I do hope this mess gets sorted to your satisfaction, and I guess you can at least enjoy the 930 to its fullest extent now. :-)

  32. #282
    Quote Originally Posted by adigra View Post
    I designed Iron Man and Black Panther
    No offense, Adi, but you are not Jack Kirby :)

    It's an awful story. I don't know if I'd ever take a 'vintage' Porsche to anyone but a specialist in air cooled Porsche. The price is likely to be similar, but main dealers are primarily concerned with new cars. Though my experience with specialists has been pretty mixed, and I take my (water cooled) car to non-Porsche garage who were recommended to me, and I've had no problems with them in the few years I've been going there.
    Last edited by doctorj; 14th June 2021 at 12:11.

  33. #283
    Quote Originally Posted by doctorj View Post
    No offense, Adi, but you are not Jack Kirby :)

    It's an awful story. I don't know if I'd ever take a 'vintage' Porsche to anyone but a specialist in air cooled Porsche. The price is likely to be similar, but main dealers are primarily concerned with new cars. Though my experience with specialists has been pretty mixed, and I take my (water cooled) car to non-Porsche garage who were recommended to me, and I've had no problems with them in the few years I've been going there.
    Ha, taken out of context that quote does seem absurd! I wasn't even born when they were originally created. I designed their modern incarnations in their respective movies (but I suspect people here knew what I meant). I did actually co-create, with the writer, a couple of the main characters in Iron Man 3, but they were killed off in the movie, so that was that... no royalties for me.

    The 930 has been with a specialist the past couple of weeks and he has found the cause for the fuelling problems. It's a number of interconnected issues all of which started at some point in the past when the overboost relay (which does a number of things, including cutting fuel pumps when the throttle is closed) either malfunctioned or was replaced by a normal relay, which allowed the car to run when it shouldn't, causing a part within the K-Jetronic system to overheat, melt a plastic spacer, which knocked the air metering flap out of position allowing for constant vapour lock to form, which subsequent mechanics tried to compensate for by timing and fuel mixture adjustments. It was actually quite hidden, but once he dug into the K-jet unit, the issues were quite clear to see. All fixed now and I should be picking it up after some testing later this week. It was an issue way beyond the skill level of PCL, but in fairness, looking through the records, it was beyond Porsche Reading and a number of well known specialists as well over the 4 years the previous owner had tried to fix the starting issues.

    The 997 is at PCL and they are moving pretty swiftly with it. The broken oil filler bracket has been replaced, the slave cylinder was being fitted yesterday, the dented plaque on the air box has been sent off to a bodyshop (conditional that it will look as new, or be completely replaced). They still need to ascertain how to clean out all of the clutch fluid which has been leaking, and have to investigate the fan issue. So not out of the woods yet.

    I know I went a bit crazy, quite literally, at the start of this thread. It's hard to see through the woods while you're going through it, but it was amazing how dramatically my outlook changed once I had retrieved the 930. The whole situation has been quite absurd, and while I've heard bad stories about main dealers, I never expected anything close to this, and certainly not it taking six months (9 if you count my previous visits to ask them to fix the fluid leak).

  34. #284
    Craftsman r.dawson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by adigra View Post
    Ha, taken out of context that quote does seem absurd! I wasn't even born when they were originally created. I designed their modern incarnations in their respective movies (but I suspect people here knew what I meant). I did actually co-create, with the writer, a couple of the main characters in Iron Man 3, but they were killed off in the movie, so that was that... no royalties for me.

    The 930 has been with a specialist the past couple of weeks and he has found the cause for the fuelling problems. It's a number of interconnected issues all of which started at some point in the past when the overboost relay (which does a number of things, including cutting fuel pumps when the throttle is closed) either malfunctioned or was replaced by a normal relay, which allowed the car to run when it shouldn't, causing a part within the K-Jetronic system to overheat, melt a plastic spacer, which knocked the air metering flap out of position allowing for constant vapour lock to form, which subsequent mechanics tried to compensate for by timing and fuel mixture adjustments. It was actually quite hidden, but once he dug into the K-jet unit, the issues were quite clear to see. All fixed now and I should be picking it up after some testing later this week. It was an issue way beyond the skill level of PCL, but in fairness, looking through the records, it was beyond Porsche Reading and a number of well known specialists as well over the 4 years the previous owner had tried to fix the starting issues.

    The 997 is at PCL and they are moving pretty swiftly with it. The broken oil filler bracket has been replaced, the slave cylinder was being fitted yesterday, the dented plaque on the air box has been sent off to a bodyshop (conditional that it will look as new, or be completely replaced). They still need to ascertain how to clean out all of the clutch fluid which has been leaking, and have to investigate the fan issue. So not out of the woods yet.

    I know I went a bit crazy, quite literally, at the start of this thread. It's hard to see through the woods while you're going through it, but it was amazing how dramatically my outlook changed once I had retrieved the 930. The whole situation has been quite absurd, and while I've heard bad stories about main dealers, I never expected anything close to this, and certainly not it taking six months (9 if you count my previous visits to ask them to fix the fluid leak).
    I was just about to suggest, have you checked if the overboost relay had been faulty and melted the plastic washer ;)

    Sent from my Pixel 5 using Tapatalk

  35. #285
    Where is the clutch fluid leaking, the reason i ask is that it is very corrosive to paint so the longer it is on there the more damage it will do, if it is inside the bell housing, the clutch is scrap.

  36. #286
    Grand Master wileeeeeey's Avatar
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    This whole story is amazing. It's actually quite an achievement to be a Porsche centre and not be able to fix a Porsche. You'd expect this from some cowboy outfit but not a main dealer.

    You might actually expect this outcome if you had a time machine and sent a brand new Porsche back 50 years but not the other way round.

    I think it proves mechanics don't exist anymore - at least not in main dealers - they're just service technicians, same as the Genius Bar ay Apple. Plug in diags and do what the computer tells you. Anything outside of that and they can't help or tell you to buy a new one.

  37. #287
    Quote Originally Posted by r.dawson View Post
    I was just about to suggest, have you checked if the overboost relay had been faulty and melted the plastic washer ;)

    Sent from my Pixel 5 using Tapatalk
    The overboost relay was faulty, but it was allowing the car to run because of it. As soon as we fitted a brand new relay the car wouldn't run at all, which pointed the specialist (Sam Lander) in the right direction and he uncovered the rest after opening up the metering unit. He even fixed the old relay, which now functions as it should.

  38. #288
    Quote Originally Posted by adrianw View Post
    Where is the clutch fluid leaking, the reason i ask is that it is very corrosive to paint so the longer it is on there the more damage it will do, if it is inside the bell housing, the clutch is scrap.
    It's leaking out of the overflow tank under the front bonnet. This is how I discovered it, and it has now damaged two plastic trim covers, so I know there can potentially be other damage. They are inspecting everything for further damage, but I will most likely demand an independent inspection as well. I need to speak to their gold technician too about his views on it as he'll have to put his name to it.

  39. #289
    Quote Originally Posted by wileeeeeey View Post
    This whole story is amazing. It's actually quite an achievement to be a Porsche centre and not be able to fix a Porsche. You'd expect this from some cowboy outfit but not a main dealer.

    You might actually expect this outcome if you had a time machine and sent a brand new Porsche back 50 years but not the other way round.

    I think it proves mechanics don't exist anymore - at least not in main dealers - they're just service technicians, same as the Genius Bar ay Apple. Plug in diags and do what the computer tells you. Anything outside of that and they can't help or tell you to buy a new one.
    The frustrating thing is that they claim their "gold" technicians are fully qualified to do it, and there are two of them at PCL, but it seems like my cars were worked on by the apprentices. I've learned my lesson.

  40. #290
    Master thieuster's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by adigra View Post
    Ha, taken out of context that quote does seem absurd! I wasn't even born when they were originally created. I designed their modern incarnations in their respective movies (but I suspect people here knew what I meant). I did actually co-create, with the writer, a couple of the main characters in Iron Man 3, but they were killed off in the movie, so that was that... no royalties for me.

    The 930 has been with a specialist the past couple of weeks and he has found the cause for the fuelling problems. It's a number of interconnected issues all of which started at some point in the past when the overboost relay (which does a number of things, including cutting fuel pumps when the throttle is closed) either malfunctioned or was replaced by a normal relay, which allowed the car to run when it shouldn't, causing a part within the K-Jetronic system to overheat, melt a plastic spacer, which knocked the air metering flap out of position allowing for constant vapour lock to form, which subsequent mechanics tried to compensate for by timing and fuel mixture adjustments. It was actually quite hidden, but once he dug into the K-jet unit, the issues were quite clear to see. All fixed now and I should be picking it up after some testing later this week. It was an issue way beyond the skill level of PCL, but in fairness, looking through the records, it was beyond Porsche Reading and a number of well known specialists as well over the 4 years the previous owner had tried to fix the starting issues.

    The 997 is at PCL and they are moving pretty swiftly with it. The broken oil filler bracket has been replaced, the slave cylinder was being fitted yesterday, the dented plaque on the air box has been sent off to a bodyshop (conditional that it will look as new, or be completely replaced). They still need to ascertain how to clean out all of the clutch fluid which has been leaking, and have to investigate the fan issue. So not out of the woods yet.

    I know I went a bit crazy, quite literally, at the start of this thread. It's hard to see through the woods while you're going through it, but it was amazing how dramatically my outlook changed once I had retrieved the 930. The whole situation has been quite absurd, and while I've heard bad stories about main dealers, I never expected anything close to this, and certainly not it taking six months (9 if you count my previous visits to ask them to fix the fluid leak).
    Great story about the 930! I would consider this Independent as 'first port of call' when you need something done! For both cars. A former colleague of mine owns two older Porsches and he's certain in his believe that the dealer stamp in the booklet is a quality sign(...). A simple annual maintenance service (he does 2K km/yr with these car, 4K in total) set him back 3800 euros last month! For one car. All for the stamps...

    After reading Adi's story, I'm now more than ever convinced that the dealer's stamps are not worth it.

    Menno

  41. #291
    What a shambles; utterly shocking but not surprising given the comments about the lack of skilled mechanics vs 'technicians' - the same problem exists in some Ducati dealerships (and I'm sure other brands).

    The request for a drawing put me in mind of Henry Cole, on one of his TV shows, asking Paul Sample for a personalised Ogri cartoon. Paul Sample didn't look massively amused.

  42. #292
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    Last garage I worked in was a Kia dealer, some of the "technicians" I wouldn't have trusted to fill a can with oil from the bulk loader, others were old school mechanics who unfortunately struggled with some of the latest technology, the master tech was a busy fella.
    I stopped taking my car to the dealer when one of them asked if my S2000 was a diesel!, product knowledge, a thing of the past.

  43. #293
    Grand Master Chris_in_the_UK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by thieuster View Post
    Great story about the 930! I would consider this Independent as 'first port of call' when you need something done! For both cars. A former colleague of mine owns two older Porsches and he's certain in his believe that the dealer stamp in the booklet is a quality sign(...). A simple annual maintenance service (he does 2K km/yr with these car, 4K in total) set him back 3800 euros last month! For one car. All for the stamps...

    After reading Adi's story, I'm now more than ever convinced that the dealer's stamps are not worth it.

    Menno
    A large proportion of the Porsche fraternity are so hell bent on having dealer stamps in the book.

    I never was during my tenure in the Cayman, sold it no problem (with a huge folder of receipts).
    When you look long into an abyss, the abyss looks long into you.........

  44. #294
    So the 930 is fixed, tested and working perfectly. The specialist, Sam Lander, did in a few days what a series of specialists and two OPCs failed over the last 5 years (the previous owner spent a lot of money trying to find the issue, without luck). He also fixed the faulty relay, manufactured an obsolete part, and then set it up to factory spec and sent me videos of everything working as it should. He's been testing it today and says it starts hot or cold on the button without any issues.

    The scary thing is, there was a rubbing sound coming from the left rear wheel, which he said was a completely loose wheel with the nuts not even finger tight. These are the wheels PCL had repaired and refitted the day before I picked it up. According to a friend, who is a manager at a local garage, letting a car leave like that would be a sackable offence in his business.

  45. #295
    Craftsman r.dawson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by adigra View Post
    So the 930 is fixed, tested and working perfectly. The specialist, Sam Lander, did in a few days what a series of specialists and two OPCs failed over the last 5 years (the previous owner spent a lot of money trying to find the issue, without luck). He also fixed the faulty relay, manufactured an obsolete part, and then set it up to factory spec and sent me videos of everything working as it should. He's been testing it today and says it starts hot or cold on the button without any issues.

    The scary thing is, there was a rubbing sound coming from the left rear wheel, which he said was a completely loose wheel with the nuts not even finger tight. These are the wheels PCL had repaired and refitted the day before I picked it up. According to a friend, who is a manager at a local garage, letting a car leave like that would be a sackable offence in his business.
    Awesome. Bet he's great to have a pint with.

    Unbelievable again from Porsche Leeds. Just when you think they couldn't be any more ashamed

    Sent from my Pixel 5 using Tapatalk

  46. #296
    Quote Originally Posted by r.dawson View Post
    Awesome. Bet he's great to have a pint with.

    Unbelievable again from Porsche Leeds. Just when you think they couldn't be any more ashamed

    Sent from my Pixel 5 using Tapatalk
    He is a fantastic guy. He's been very helpful over the whole PCL ordeal and his advice has been invaluable. Having talked to him for months before ever taking the car to him I knew he was the right man for the job. A proper engineer and just a really nice guy.

    And yeah, I genuinely wonder if people might think that my account of my experiences with PCL might be overexaggerated due to just how crazy it all sounds, but every time I think it's reached the bottom, there is yet another thing they did wrong.

  47. #297
    I must be in some kind of Porsche hell...

    200 miles after I picked up the 997 after they finally replaced the clutch slave cylinder, but not the accumulator, the car has dumped all of the clutch/steering fluid. So back to Porsche Leeds it goes...

    As another really odd thing, the rear wheels on my 930, which they scratched and had fixed/repainted, came back with really nasty cheap knockoff wheel centres. At first I thought they were just really thickly painted, although I didn't understand why, until I inspected closer and compared to the photos of the car before it went into them. They are really badly cast and missing the removal holes. Just bizarre. I got a pair of genuine ones and was going to just move on with my life, but as that quote goes, "Just when I thought I was out, they pull me back in!".

    Officially the worst business I have ever dealt with, and I say that without a shred of exaggeration. I rue the day I decided to set foot there.

  48. #298
    Craftsman r.dawson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by adigra View Post
    I must be in some kind of Porsche hell...

    200 miles after I picked up the 997 after they finally replaced the clutch slave cylinder, but not the accumulator, the car has dumped all of the clutch/steering fluid. So back to Porsche Leeds it goes...

    As another really odd thing, the rear wheels on my 930, which they scratched and had fixed/repainted, came back with really nasty cheap knockoff wheel centres. At first I thought they were just really thickly painted, although I didn't understand why, until I inspected closer and compared to the photos of the car before it went into them. They are really badly cast and missing the removal holes. Just bizarre. I got a pair of genuine ones and was going to just move on with my life, but as that quote goes, "Just when I thought I was out, they pull me back in!".

    Officially the worst business I have ever dealt with, and I say that without a shred of exaggeration. I rue the day I decided to set foot there.
    Wow, surely it's time for Porsche to just pick the car up and take it out the dealerships hands.

    It's just total incompetence at this stage.

  49. #299
    Grand Master Chris_in_the_UK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by adigra View Post
    Officially the worst business I have ever dealt with, and I say that without a shred of exaggeration. I rue the day I decided to set foot there.
    I would keep them 'under the hammer' Adi if I was in your position - include Porsche GB in the process and keep on and on. Do not let them off the hook in any way!.
    When you look long into an abyss, the abyss looks long into you.........

  50. #300
    I spoke to Porsche GB today to the lady I've been speaking to all along and she said multiple times that the whole situation is "disgusting", but their role is largely as overseers and at least Porsche GB seem fairly toothless, but she said getting JCT regional manager involved would rattle some cages. The head of business at PCL is on holiday, so I spoke to the head of sales and I told him that I will not be pleasant to deal with going forward and I mean that. I've sent all of them an email detailing my demands including that I want the email to be forwarded to the regional manager, so we'll see how they respond to that. The car is being picked up tomorrow as it's broken down and I have demanded to be present when their Gold Technician inspects it as I want to understand what is going on.

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