Electric Scooters on Pavements....grrrrr!

[Tatters]

These e-scooters are now in Cheltenham, operated by Zwings: “We are on a mission to help millions of people across the UK and internationally reimagine the way that they travel by creating a new culture of shared mobility.”.

The only people I have ever seen on them are young and fit looking, and would do better on a bicycle: good exercise, better range, does not need recharging, and you get to sit down. The sooner this e-scooter fad passes, the better.

[CardShark]

Essex County Council have opted into this scheme. Its a bloody disaster. Driven by the DfT using 'Spin' a part of the Ford Motor Company. I have been inundated with complaints and powerless to do anything. All this nonsense about lower emissions and creating a greener City? Elderly and disabled people face real fears mixing with idiots either stoned or half cut. Until someone gets killed, no real measures will be introduced. Most of these culprits ride around using their parents driving licence details. We are down for 350 of these machines in my City!!
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Chelmsford? When you say that you've been inundated with complaints are you a Councillor there? If so you may know my brother...

I'm a Chelmsfordian myself and whilst I understand and agree with the irresponsible side of their use I don't see it as anything different to irresponsible cycle use. Where I used to see people (usually older teenagers acting like they're well 'ard) on bikes going up and down the pedestrianised High Street now I see the occasional scooter, they're the same in terms of potential risk IMO. I'm not excusing poor usage, just that the potential to cause harm has maybe jumped from one form of transport to another.

FWIW once I've sorted a new 'photo ID driving licence so I can use the associated mobile app I'll probably be using the Spin scooters (responsibly!) myself, there are usually one or two parked near to where I live.

[jammie*dodger]

When public transport opens up properly I will probably get a bus to the town I work in, there is then a 30 minute walk to work. I cant take my bike on the bus (even my brompton) but I suspect a scooter (if the top half folded) would be ok.
As a result I'd like it if these were legalised but wont be buying one until they are.

[in_denial]

I do not mind bikes or scooters on pavements or pedestrian areas but when there is excessive speed or lack of regard for the safety of others, I do not feel the same.

On our family walks, we will let bikes on pavements overtake us and there is a thank you/acknowledgement from them. On occasions the cyclists are in front heading towards us, they often go to the grass verge and still acknowledge.

When I had a bike many years ago, all pavement cycling involved pedestrians having the right of way and given plenty of space.

Hope your hand is ok.

Plus one on this; we have a lot of shared cycle path/footpath in our area, and this is the approach I take; let the MAMILs ride on the road. And yes, the teens on electric scooters are a nightmare at blind bends

[Christian]

I've also seen the argument that bikes can be as dangerous but I think that misses the point that to ride a bike at 15mph takes constant effort and therefore there is a much more conscious process to decide to ride dangerously. With a scooter, you just turn a throttle which means the brainless in our society will be much more inclined to be riding dangerously.

[CardShark]

To add to my earlier post, unlike personally owned electric scooters the Spin run scooters have insurance (the exact terms of which I'm yet to read up on) included as part of their hire. They're also geotagged so they can't be used within a defined no-go zone within the city centre, can't be used on roads with a speed limit above 30mph and will cut out if they're ridden beyond the zone away from the city as defined by the map on the app. They have automatically operated lights front and rear, you need to pass a tuition course on the app prior to first scooters use and I've heard, though can't confirm, that their speed is also reduced for a first time user. The app map shows quite clearly where the scooters have been left by other users and also displays each scooters state of charge so you know if you'll get to where you're going!

[CardShark]

I've also seen the argument that bikes can be as dangerous but I think that misses the point that to ride a bike at 15mph takes constant effort and therefore there is a much more conscious process to decide to ride dangerously. With a scooter, you just turn a throttle which means the brainless in our society will be much more inclined to be riding dangerously.

I was responding to wildheart's comment about use under the influence though I'm not personally so sure about the conscious effort part either. You can be brainless on a bike, on a scooter, in a car (where you also don't require any physical effort) and so on.

The issue isn't so much the form of transport but more about how, when and why it's used.

[Ivan Drago]

They’ve been in Europe for a few years and they are brilliant, there’s also a council run pilot scheme in Liverpool now that’s running until next year. I’ve used them extensively and they are fantastic for getting about.

[dougair]

The issue isn't so much the form of transport but more about how, when and why it's used.

Exactly this. You get brainless morons in all forms of transport. You can’t ban something because of a few irresponsible users, if you did we’d all be walking everywhere!

[Neil.C]

None around here but I saw one when I was in London a couple of weeks back.

Fully grown chap weaving in and out of pedestrians on the pavement.

Aside from the danger aspect he did look an utter wilf riding along on what looked like a kid's toy.

[wildheart]

Chelmsford? When you say that you've been inundated with complaints are you a Councillor there? If so you may know my brother...

I'm a Chelmsfordian myself and whilst I understand and agree with the irresponsible side of their use I don't see it as anything different to irresponsible cycle use. Where I used to see people (usually older teenagers acting like they're well 'ard) on bikes going up and down the pedestrianised High Street now I see the occasional scooter, they're the same in terms of potential risk IMO. I'm not excusing poor usage, just that the potential to cause harm has maybe jumped from one form of transport to another.

FWIW once I've sorted a new 'photo ID driving licence so I can use the associated mobile app I'll probably be using the Spin scooters (responsibly!) myself, there are usually one or two parked near to where I live.

No not a Councillor I’m a Officer at the City Council.E Scooters have just added to the cycling problems with have with deliveroo and spotty oik.
This scheme was forced on us by County & the DfT. 78% mates between age of 14 to 40 use the things. We find them all over the parks in the rivers and all over the public realm. Sodding nuisance we can all do without IMHO


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[guinea]

The law and infrastructure needs to catch up with reality.

Increased battery power and efficient electric motor technology means that smaller, flexible modes of transport are available that can displace many other types of environmentally damaging journeys.

I live 20 miles from the office, I can cycle that a few times a week, but if I could have a bike with a motor to help then I'd do it daily. Unfortunately the top speed of the e-bikes is lower than I actually ride unassisted, so they wouldn't help at all. If we could get parity with our EU neighbours then that would be great.

We need to create incentives to make these schemes viable, not shut them down.

[Templogin]

I wonder how many people are killed and maimed each day by cars?

That aside, the plague of scooters has not reached these shores yet. The biggest danger is to pedestrians here is having to walk in the road to avoid cars driven or parked on the pavements. The odd cyclist passes me on the pavement, but it’s usually a youngster on their way to school. Although cycling on the pavement has been illegal since the 1830s I am OK with the youngsters not risking their lives on the road, although I have to admit that the vast majority of drivers here give cyclists a wide berth when passing.

I ride a normally powered pushbike and an eBike. The latter probably takes a third of the effort to get to where I am going, which is nice for us in our sixties. I do tire of the prats who describe it as cheating as they are bound sooner or later to be driving to the supermarket to get their shopping, rather than lugging it by hand. Surely that’s cheating!?

[Chris_in_the_UK]

I wonder how many people are killed and maimed each day by cars?

Close to 2000 deaths per year for the last few years.

[wildheart]

The law and infrastructure needs to catch up with reality.

Increased battery power and efficient electric motor technology means that smaller, flexible modes of transport are available that can displace many other types of environmentally damaging journeys.

I live 20 miles from the office, I can cycle that a few times a week, but if I could have a bike with a motor to help then I'd do it daily. Unfortunately the top speed of the e-bikes is lower than I actually ride unassisted, so they wouldn't help at all. If we could get parity with our EU neighbours then that would be great.

We need to create incentives to make these schemes viable, not shut them down.

Where do you think the money is raised from to support infrastructure
Improvements? Not from cyclists or e scooter users. Or maybe the tax payer has to pay the short fall so e scooter users and deliveroo riders can get about with impunity?


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[Templogin]

I am a cyclist and I pay taxes

[Christian]

Yes, I don't quite follow the tax argument if nearly all of our tax revenue is pooled centrally.

One complaint is that we haven't got the money to properly spend so we end up paying a council worker to paint an arbitrary line on a pavement and call it a cycle lane. I've seen countless 'cycle lanes' where whoever painted them forgot which side he'd previously allocated to the bike and which to the pedestrian so they switch over at every new piece of pavement.

[Kingstepper]

To add to my earlier post, unlike personally owned electric scooters the Spin run scooters have insurance (the exact terms of which I'm yet to read up on) included as part of their hire. They're also geotagged so they can't be used within a defined no-go zone within the city centre, can't be used on roads with a speed limit above 30mph and will cut out if they're ridden beyond the zone away from the city as defined by the map on the app. They have automatically operated lights front and rear, you need to pass a tuition course on the app prior to first scooters use and I've heard, though can't confirm, that their speed is also reduced for a first time user. The app map shows quite clearly where the scooters have been left by other users and also displays each scooters state of charge so you know if you'll get to where you're going!

The scooters might have insurance but doubt that would cover youngsters riding on the parent’s licence as suggested happens (and many riders appear far too young to have a licence) or even riding on the pavements when they shouldn’t be.

[RobDad]

If we’re a nation full of overweight or obese people, with all these carbon neutral and eco friendly aims, might I suggest we just stick to bicycles? - surely this is another new fangled solution for a problem that doesn’t exist - or more correctly the solution - a bicycle - has already been invented, so there’s no need for another - especially as the metals in e scooter batteries still need to be mined etc.


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[dougair]

If we’re a nation full of overweight or obese people, with all these carbon neutral and eco friendly aims, might I suggest we just stick to bicycles? - surely this is another new fangled solution for a problem that doesn’t exist - or more correctly the solution - a bicycle - has already been invented, so there’s no need for another - especially as the metals in e scooter batteries still need to be mined etc.


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Yeah, good point, why bother moving forward. Maybe we could also get rid of TVs? The wireless is better anyway!

[RobDad]

Yeah, good point, why bother moving forward. Maybe we could also get rid of TVs? The wireless is better anyway!

But is it really moving forward? Making the batteries uses energy, when people can use their own energy without needing to strip mine the planet?


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[prexelor]

I went for a walk with my wife the other day and two mini motorbikes went roaring past. Not on the road but on the footpath. Absolutely mind boggling.

[Christian]

But is it really moving forward? Making the batteries uses energy, when people can use their own energy without needing to strip mine the planet?


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100% with you on this one. The last thing our statistically overweight/borderline obese nation needs is the excuse to do even less exercise too. Young people need to get into good exercise habits by the time they are young adults and not have even less reasons to move their body. I’d say e-scooters aren’t progression from bicycles.

[CardShark]

The scooters might have insurance but doubt that would cover youngsters riding on the parent’s licence as suggested happens (and many riders appear far too young to have a licence) or even riding on the pavements when they shouldn’t be.

As I said, I'm not aware of the full Ts and Cs though I doubt, as you've suggested, that someone using a scooter under another person's licence would be covered and I've certainly seen under 17s riding them even if it's far from the norm. It would be easy enough to identify the licence owner of any hired scooter, maybe there would still be some legal fallout for anyone found to be hiring one for someone else. Or even banned from using the service, that would be easy enough as well.

[Templogin]

But is it really moving forward? Making the batteries uses energy, when people can use their own energy without needing to strip mine the planet?


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No offence meant, but do you use a car to get your shopping? There is a huge amount of resources being mined to produce and run that car. A huge amount of damage being done to run that car.

I am not trying to be holier than thou. For many years I worked in jobs where I was driving over 30,000 miles per year and driving or riding cars/motorcycles another 10,000 per year for leisure.

[RobDad]

No offence meant, but do you use a car to get your shopping? There is a huge amount of resources being mined to produce and run that car. A huge amount of damage being done to run that car.

I am not trying to be holier than thou. For many years I worked in jobs where I was driving over 30,000 miles per year and driving or riding cars/motorcycles another 10,000 per year for leisure.

None taken, but how is that relevant? I’m not saying I’m a super eco green person (although I do my bit) - I’m simply saying that a bicycle does the same job as one of these scooters and also happens to be more eco friendly,so from a certain point of view this isn’t moving forwards it’s moving backwards. I haven’t taken a flight in 15 years which I suspect has rather reduced my carbon footprint, and will change my car to a fully electric one at the next opportunity, and I do see that as progress. I’m simply making the point that new gadgets aren’t necessarily better just because they are new, these scooters strike me as a gimmick which also happens to be dangerous when used on a pavement.


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[OldHooky]

As long as yoofs walk around with Nana bags across their chest there's no hope in hell of them conforming to some sort of normal behaviour on the road (or pavement).

As for e-scooters on pavements, the roads are so riddled with potholes and the subsidence caused by shoddy resurfacing by the utilities companies that the rider would be over the handlebars in seconds. Hurray, obviously, but it does show the state of British roads. Go elsewhere in Europe, including countries which have severe weather, and the roads are infinitely better, and e-scooters aren't on pavements.

For the UK it's an age old problem. Lack of investment. Lack of imagination. Lack of incentive. Lack of compliance. Lack of consequence.

[Templogin]

The sort of people that ride these are doing so because it is fashionable at the moment and at least some because they are too lazy to walk. eBikes seem to getting people onto bikes, who would not have considered cycling, so sadly we have to look at this as a step forward. It is progress though if we got them out of their cars, and got them doing a small amount of exercise rather than none at all.

[brigant]

On radio this morning was a discussion regarding mak8ng cyclists and e scooter riders wear tabards with a registraion number to help identify those who breal law ( jumping traffic lights, riding on pavements etc). Probably have a few issues to sort out but a decent starting idea.

[Templogin]

On radio this morning was a discussion regarding mak8ng cyclists and e scooter riders wear tabards with a registraion number to help identify those who breal law ( jumping traffic lights, riding on pavements etc). Probably have a few issues to sort out but a decent starting idea.

Let's hope that they do this with pedestrians too. They can be a menace, wandering across the road with their headphones on, head in their phones, oblivious to the real world.

[pacifichrono]

Watch out...here I come (delivery in two weeks)!

[Kingstepper]

Let's hope that they do this with pedestrians too. They can be a menace, wandering across the road with their headphones on, head in their phones, oblivious to the real world.

Which law are they breaking?

[Templogin]

Which law are they breaking?

The "law" of commonsense!! We shouldn't need a law for everything! Most of us will have seen someone step off the pavement without checking, without a care in the world, ear buds in, concentrating on their phone in front of a car/cycle/truck etc. If they don't get knocked down themselves they risk causing accidents when someone has to take evasive action.

There are without doubt cyclists that ignore the law, as there are car drivers that do the same. As a cyclist I don't want to have to wear a number plate because of a few idiots, who don't obey the road laws. More people getting out of their cars, whether to walking or cycling is undoubtedly a positive thing for all of us overall imho. Arrogant teenagers will always exist whether on scooters or whatever the next fad for them is.

[bry nylon]

On radio this morning was a discussion regarding mak8ng cyclists and e scooter riders wear tabards with a registraion number to help identify those who breal law ( jumping traffic lights, riding on pavements etc). Probably have a few issues to sort out but a decent starting idea.

That is a stupid idea being touted by Mr Loophole; aka Nick Freeman, who specialises in helping celebrities escape driving bans. If he was that concerned about pedestrian casualties he should give up his day job..

The Government have ruled out this approach before because of the huge cost of such a scheme vs the very limited benefits..

[oldoakknives]

Where are pedestrians going to walk since these scooter riders seem to believe the footpaths are for them to zoom along.

[Templogin]

Hopefully the pedestrians will be able to remain on the pavements, for I am one, and the scooter riders be educated to use the roads or the cycle paths, when the latter are available. The latter will require investment in the infrastructure, something woefully lacking in the UK.

[Saint-Just]

As highlighted above the key point is infrastructure.
e-scooters are a menace to pedestrians per se, as the speed differential between the 2 is too great. But adapting either the road or/and pavement and footpaths is a viable (if expensive) proposition.
What promoting e-scooters does achieve is twofold:
- they provide an alternative to cars for people who do not cycle to work.
Let's face it: those who wanted to cycle already do. If e-scooters take a few drivers out of their cars, it's progress.
- they are still an "active" way to move about: the muscles involved in keeping your balance are at work all the time, and while it is not exactly strenuous, it will be a lot more healthy than sitting in the car for the same journey.

Of course, the other problem is that not all the users are remorseful drivers, and many will use them for fun. Again, like skateboards in the past, dedicated spaces (e-scooter tracks?) will work. Infrastructure.

[Christian]

Dream of this e-scooter utopia all you want but all of this talk is highly theoretical based on a rule abiding population. Certainly the demographic that make up scooter riders around greater London do not fall into that category. They are the type that see nothing wrong with trying to ride them into a supermarket. Dream of as much infrastructure as you want but if the local chav can get hold of a cheap chinese scooter and ride about with impunity then they will always be a menace. Police need to actually enforce the law…can’t be hard to confiscate a scooter if being ridden illegally…but they don’t.

[wildheart]

Dream of this e-scooter utopia all you want but all of this talk is highly theoretical based on a rule abiding population. Certainly the demographic that make up scooter riders around greater London do not fall into that category. They are the type that see nothing wrong with trying to ride them into a supermarket. Dream of as much infrastructure as you want but if the local chav can get hold of a cheap chinese scooter and ride about with impunity then they will always be a menace. Police need to actually enforce the law…can’t be hard to confiscate a scooter if being ridden illegally…but they don’t.

I had a meeting with Essex Police last week, they are confiscating at least 3 rogue scooters a week. The problem is where do they go from there? We talked about a public destruction of a machine, but ruled that out. They do not have the man power to Police our streets at the best of times dealing with E Scooters is a real issue. Elderly and disabled people are in real fear of these idiots, but with the DfT firmly behind the E Scooter cause I think we will have to tolerate them.

[Templogin]

I preferred the rouge scooters!

[Michael 38]

The uni were I work is full of students going full Blast on these things down narrow footpaths nothing will be done till someone is seriously injured, I also saw a middle class middle age man going full blast with a very small child on one and I bet if he had an accident he would be blaming whoever else was involved in it

[Pitfitter]

Wait till they are popular and the government will step in with a tax of some sort, easy money for them, from the responsible owners only of course.

[CardShark]

I had a meeting with Essex Police last week, they are confiscating at least 3 rogue scooters a week. The problem is where do they go from there? We talked about a public destruction of a machine, but ruled that out. They do not have the man power to Police our streets at the best of times dealing with E Scooters is a real issue. Elderly and disabled people are in real fear of these idiots, but with the DfT firmly behind the E Scooter cause I think we will have to tolerate them.

They occasionally post on a community FB group I'm a member of when a scooter is confiscated and the multiple responses usually fall into one of two camps. Camp 1 is "great job, they're a menace" with the camp 2 "can't you do some real policing?" brigade usually outnumbering the former.

[Tatters]

Not so long ago Segways were going to revolutionise transport. I can’t see much difference with e-scooters, and I hope they meet a similar fate, and are consigned to the dustbin of solutions looking for a problem. Just because something is new, does not make it progress.

[dougair]

Not so long ago Segways were going to revolutionise transport. I can’t see much difference with e-scooters, and I hope they meet a similar fate, and are consigned to the dustbin of solutions looking for a problem. Just because something is new, does not make it progress.

And just because some people don’t see the need doesn’t mean it’s not progress.

[MrSmith]

For the UK it's an age old problem. Lack of investment. Lack of imagination. Lack of incentive. Lack of compliance. Lack of consequence.

And the British love affair with the motor car, its’s quite sad how people obsess over them and hold them up as a significant part of their identity. All that to sit in traffic for hours in a heavily taxed depreciating asset.

[Essexman]

Electric scooter riders dies six days after collision with a car.


Shakur Pinnock: E-scooter rider dies in hospital - six days after being critically injured in collision with a car http://news.sky.com/story/shakur-pin...a-car-12336751

[Harry Smith]

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...-a6727266.html

Never mind escoots, these ^ should be banned.

[Saint-Just]

Paris police search for two e-scooter riders after pedestrian killed https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-57541041

[mav112]

Two people where i Live in Liverpool riding e scooters were stopped by police and breath tested positive, and have been disqualified


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