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Thread: Bremont £100,000

  1. #51
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    I've no dog in the Bremont fight, but in the course of these conversations I do often wonder how far their foundation story is an original sin that they can't quite escape. That is, their story about the crash landing and the French farmer etc seems to be regarded as either a bit cheesy, or simply an invention. You can't help wondering if they decided to use it / embellish it / make it up without anticipating how big the brand would actually become. But it's hard not to see everything they've subsequently done in the light of it, i.e. as a bit gimmicky and questionable. I wonder whether some who dislike Bremont on reflex might not do so, or do so less, if it hadn't all started with something that sounds like (and I have no way of knowing) it started over skinny lattes in a PR company.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tom-P View Post
    I've no dog in the Bremont fight, but in the course of these conversations I do often wonder how far their foundation story is an original sin that they can't quite escape. That is, their story about the crash landing and the French farmer etc seems to be regarded as either a bit cheesy, or simply an invention. You can't help wondering if they decided to use it / embellish it / make it up without anticipating how big the brand would actually become. But it's hard not to see everything they've subsequently done in the light of it, i.e. as a bit gimmicky and questionable. I wonder whether some who dislike Bremont on reflex might not do so, or do so less, if it hadn't all started with something that sounds like (and I have no way of knowing) it started over skinny lattes in a PR company.
    You may have a point...
    I compare them with B&R at their beginning sometimes, because of the "imaginative" story telling. They added a Ivan Arpa dimension with their inclusions.
    The problem is that when you don't adhere to the story telling, you judge the product for what it is, and not for what it represents. This is of course true for every product, not just watch brands.
    Which is why most of the criticism is directed at the price point: if you don't buy the marketing, the watch is still as good as it would be if you did but isn't quite worth the same...

    The luvvies do have a point though: a product is worth what people are prepared to pay for it, and as the story telling increases the value to their eyes, Bremont would be stupid to sell them cheap.

    Selling a steel watch with a 7750 inside for £12K takes some chutzpah. Selling a steel watch for £100K will take even more, regardless of any association with what could be called a B movie.
    But if they do it's no stone in my garden. It will not change the way I see them, and they will not care one iota.
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  3. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by Saint-Just View Post
    You may have a point...
    I compare them with B&R at their beginning sometimes, because of the "imaginative" story telling. They added a Ivan Arpa dimension with their inclusions.
    The problem is that when you don't adhere to the story telling, you judge the product for what it is, and not for what it represents. This is of course true for every product, not just watch brands.
    Which is why most of the criticism is directed at the price point: if you don't buy the marketing, the watch is still as good as it would be if you did but isn't quite worth the same...

    The luvvies do have a point though: a product is worth what people are prepared to pay for it, and as the story telling increases the value to their eyes, Bremont would be stupid to sell them cheap.

    Selling a steel watch with a 7750 inside for £12K takes some chutzpah. Selling a steel watch for £100K will take even more, regardless of any association with what could be called a B movie.
    But if they do it's no stone in my garden. It will not change the way I see them, and they will not care one iota.
    They’re not selling any watches for £100k.

  4. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by dougair View Post
    They’re not selling any watches for £100k.
    Referring to the thread title
    'Against stupidity, the gods themselves struggle in vain' - Schiller.

  5. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by Saint-Just View Post
    Referring to the thread title
    I’m just sayin.

  6. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saint-Just View Post
    ...........
    The luvvies do have a point though: a product is worth what people are prepared to pay for it, and as the story telling increases the value to their eyes, Bremont would be stupid to sell them cheap.

    Selling a steel watch with a 7750 inside for £12K takes some chutzpah. Selling a steel watch for £100K will take even more, regardless of any association with what could be called a B movie.
    But if they do it's no stone in my garden. It will not change the way I see them, and they will not care one iota.
    Other watches with 7750 based movements are available at a fraction of the cost, so I can only assume the car hire and clock add a hefty premium! If it was watch only at about £3-£3.5k I'd think it was reasonable.

    https://www.watches-of-switzerland.c...xoC_ZcQAvD_BwE

    https://www.goldsmiths.co.uk/TAG-Heu...BoCMY8QAvD_BwE
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  7. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by oldoakknives View Post
    Other watches with 7750 based movements are available at a fraction of the cost, so I can only assume the car hire and clock add a hefty premium! If it was watch only at about £3-£3.5k I'd think it was reasonable.

    https://www.watches-of-switzerland.c...xoC_ZcQAvD_BwE

    https://www.goldsmiths.co.uk/TAG-Heu...BoCMY8QAvD_BwE
    I agree but I try to remember they are a watch maker (rather than a manufacture). So what they sell is a watch, regardless of the goodies they want to include with it

    Having said that, I do not disagree with comparing them with Tag and Breitling. It is also the market segment I would place them in, as a new comer.
    'Against stupidity, the gods themselves struggle in vain' - Schiller.

  8. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saint-Just View Post
    I agree but I try to remember they are a watch maker (rather than a manufacture). So what they sell is a watch, regardless of the goodies they want to include with it

    Having said that, I do not disagree with comparing them with Tag and Breitling. It is also the market segment I would place them in, as a new comer.
    Agreed.
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  9. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tom-P View Post
    I've no dog in the Bremont fight, but in the course of these conversations I do often wonder how far their foundation story is an original sin that they can't quite escape. That is, their story about the crash landing and the French farmer etc seems to be regarded as either a bit cheesy, or simply an invention. You can't help wondering if they decided to use it / embellish it / make it up without anticipating how big the brand would actually become. But it's hard not to see everything they've subsequently done in the light of it, i.e. as a bit gimmicky and questionable. I wonder whether some who dislike Bremont on reflex might not do so, or do so less, if it hadn't all started with something that sounds like (and I have no way of knowing) it started over skinny lattes in a PR company.
    I see your point but I would hope that you're wrong. If it is the case then it very much suggests that those people are extremely superficial rather than having any substance.

  10. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saint-Just View Post
    The problem is that when you don't adhere to the story telling, you judge the product for what it is, and not for what it represents. This is of course true for every product, not just watch brands.
    Which is why most of the criticism is directed at the price point: if you don't buy the marketing, the watch is still as good as it would be if you did but isn't quite worth the same...
    The luvvies do have a point though: a product is worth what people are prepared to pay for it, and as the story telling increases the value to their eyes, Bremont would be stupid to sell them cheap.
    I think you're missing one simple point here, what if those who like the watch, want it for what it is and they're prepared to pay the price. Nothing to do with the marketing, or the brand, simply that they like the watch?

    I've just posted on a thread in regard to a bronze Panerai which is even more expensive. There are some comments about the cost of a bronze watch being so high but nothing as critical as would happen in a Bremont thread. I like the Panerai and if it was what I wanted then I would buy it. I know very little about Panerai so it's obviously not the marketing. It's simply a nice but expensive watch.

  11. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saint-Just View Post
    I agree but I try to remember they are a watch maker (rather than a manufacture).
    Can you explain that comment please. At what point does a company cease to become a 'maker' and become a 'manufacturer' in your view?

  12. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by oldoakknives View Post
    Other watches with 7750 based movements are available at a fraction of the cost, so I can only assume the car hire and clock add a hefty premium! If it was watch only at about £3-£3.5k I'd think it was reasonable.
    So you're saying that any watch with a 7750 based movement should be in exactly the same price range? Interesting comment. So you would say the same for any car with the same engine? Very interesting.

  13. #63
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    Dismissing a marketing strategy based on a fairy tale and wannabe-ism is to be shallow and lack substance ?
    You’d have an easier job describing those that swallow the worm they’re given with the hook.

    I am sure there are people who buy those watches for what they are. I am also convinced that their marketing works for them, which is to say a significant proportion of their buyers swallow the worm.

    Not every one who want to make watches need to develop a calibre, but the choice of engine does have a bearing on the price point.
    The 7750 is a good but unrefined chronograph. Fine for entry level watches.

    I genuinely don’t understand why people who claim to know about horology are taken by it. But again, if they like the bait...
    'Against stupidity, the gods themselves struggle in vain' - Schiller.

  14. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by theancientmariner View Post
    So you're saying that any watch with a 7750 based movement should be in exactly the same price range? Interesting comment. So you would say the same for any car with the same engine? Very interesting.
    No, I never said either of those things.
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  15. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by theancientmariner View Post
    I think you're missing one simple point here, what if those who like the watch, want it for what it is and they're prepared to pay the price. Nothing to do with the marketing, or the brand, simply that they like the watch?

    I've just posted on a thread in regard to a bronze Panerai which is even more expensive. There are some comments about the cost of a bronze watch being so high but nothing as critical as would happen in a Bremont thread............................
    You've obviously never seen the critical comments in some of the Rolex threads then!

    I see there are still both colours left in the Jaguar special edition of 120, if you want one.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saint-Just View Post
    Dismissing a marketing strategy based on a fairy tale and wannabe-ism is to be shallow and lack substance ?
    You’d have an easier job describing those that swallow the worm they’re given with the hook.

    I am sure there are people who buy those watches for what they are. I am also convinced that their marketing works for them, which is to say a significant proportion of their buyers swallow the worm.

    Not every one who want to make watches need to develop a calibre, but the choice of engine does have a bearing on the price point.
    The 7750 is a good but unrefined chronograph. Fine for entry level watches.

    I genuinely don’t understand why people who claim to know about horology are taken by it. But again, if they like the bait...
    I presume that you have proof of a fairy tale? I thought not, so as you criticise those for believing a reason for the origin of a name, you're also criticising yourself for a blatant untruth. Should we therefore not believe anything else you say simply because we believe your comment about a fairy tale to be untrue?

    My comment about being shallow and lacking substance was not about those who choose not to believe the origins of the name, more so those who base everything the company have done since they were founded on their belief of the origins of the name. That's what the post I've quoted was about.

    I honestly don't know whether Bremonts marketing works for them. I'm sure that some of is it does otherwise why bother but is that not the case for every watch brand? I very much doubt that the origins of the name have much effect on those buying into the brand though.

    is the 7750 movement not in quite a broad spectrum, value wise, of watches?

  17. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by oldoakknives View Post
    No, I never said either of those things.
    So you don't believe that the 7750 movement should be in a watch that's part of a set retailing at circa £13k but you also don't believe that all 7750 movement watches should be in the same price bracket. So you must believe that the 7750 movement could be in a watch at a price point above a set range but at what price point would that be?

    Quote Originally Posted by oldoakknives View Post
    You've obviously never seen the critical comments in some of the Rolex threads then!
    my post was in reference to the Panerai thread, not sure if you misread it or not? Someone commented recently that people can be so negative toward Rolex owners because they in turn can be so negative about other watch brands. I'm starting to see that.

    Quote Originally Posted by oldoakknives View Post
    I see there are still both colours left in the Jaguar special edition of 120, if you want one..
    may be I've already ordered one....

  18. #68
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    The onus of the proof is on those who claim the existence. I doubt the claim.
    The 7750 is in far more lower priced watches than the opposite, and those usually have precious metals to justify their price point.

    But it remains a tractor of a calibre. Utilitarian yes, luxury no. It presents no horological interest other than being robust.

    What is left is the aesthetics, and they appear to have a decent finish. The dial is fine but no better than most. A Tag without Heuer, or a Breitling without history.

    It’s funny how that seems to upset you. I have no interest in their offerings at that price point, and take the trouble to explain why. If you like them, by all means buy them. You could even try and tell me why the 7750 is so interesting.
    'Against stupidity, the gods themselves struggle in vain' - Schiller.

  19. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by theancientmariner View Post
    So you don't believe that the 7750 movement should be in a watch that's part of a set retailing at circa £13k but you also don't believe that all 7750 movement watches should be in the same price bracket. So you must believe that the 7750 movement could be in a watch at a price point above a set range but at what price point would that be?
    Perhaps if you answered what I actually say, it would help. So here goes.

    In my opinion the watch in question is not worth anything like over £12k, given it uses a fairly common, and old, movement which can be found in watches costing a fraction of the amount. The clock and day out aren't worth more than £1k, again in my opinion.

    You can make any argument you like, but it's unlikely I'll change my mind about that any more than I will convince you.

    Quote Originally Posted by theancientmariner View Post
    my post was in reference to the Panerai thread, not sure if you misread it or not?
    No I never 'misread' it. You implied Bremont received more criticism than another brand, in that case Panerai. I referred to Rolex receiving a lot of criticism as well. I thought you would be able to make the connection.

    Quote Originally Posted by theancientmariner View Post
    Someone commented recently that people can be so negative toward Rolex owners because they in turn can be so negative about other watch brands. I'm starting to see that.
    Well, if you want to be negative about Rolex because a Rolex owner was negative towards Bremont feel free. By the way I'm also an Omega, Dan Henry, Skagen, Rotary, Zeno, Timex, Lasser, Smiths, Braithwait and Seiko owner among others so you're going to have to be negative towards a lot of brands!

    Quote Originally Posted by theancientmariner View Post
    may be I've already ordered one....
    Perhaps you have. In which case I hope it lives up to your expectations.
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  20. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by theancientmariner View Post
    Can you explain that comment please. At what point does a company cease to become a 'maker' and become a 'manufacturer' in your view?
    To my eye, it's about the value added to a base calibre through finishing or complications.

    Bremont clain to produce their own watch case, which is good - but it still houses a stock caliber.

    They make a lot of noise about their marketing alliances - Boeing, Supermarine, Wright foundation etc.

    Many of their customers will perceive Bremont as a premium product, with little concern about the horological worth of the piece.

    As has been stated above, Bremont are a fashion and lifestyle brand along with TAG and Bell & Ross.
    Breitling have a strong history of true tool watch, but their recent ranges are again lifestyle oriented.

  21. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by W124 View Post
    To my eye, it's about the value added to a base calibre through finishing or complications.

    Bremont clain to produce their own watch case, which is good - but it still houses a stock caliber.

    They make a lot of noise about their marketing alliances - Boeing, Supermarine, Wright foundation etc.

    Many of their customers will perceive Bremont as a premium product, with little concern about the horological worth of the piece.

    As has been stated above, Bremont are a fashion and lifestyle brand along with TAG and Bell & Ross.
    Breitling have a strong history of true tool watch, but their recent ranges are again lifestyle oriented.
    Putting them on the same path as Rolex. Which perhaps bodes well for them in the future.

    Rolex bought stock Aegler movements and put the Rolex name on them (does that ring a Bremont bell??). Then eventually bought Aegler rather than develop their own movement.

    Then they made up a hokey story about their watches being used by Hillary in the conquering of Everest. They traded on that over many years and countless advertising campaigns. If Rolex had tried that stuff in the days of the internet they would be viewed by some as Bremont is currently.

    Hopefully the future will be as kind to Bremont as the past was to Rolex.
    Last edited by bedlam; 5th April 2021 at 10:27.

  22. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by bedlam View Post
    Putting them on the same path as Rolex. Which perhaps bodes well for them in the future.

    Rolex bought stock Aegler movements and put the Rolex name on them (does that ring a Bremont bell??). Then eventually bought Aegler rather than develop their own movement.

    Then they made up a hokey story about their watches being used by Hillary in the conquering of Everest. They traded on that over many years and countless advertising campaigns. If Rolex had tried that stuff in the days of the internet they would be viewed by some as Bremont is currently.

    Hopefully the future will be as kind to Bremont as the past was to Rolex.
    That horse has bolted. The internet and its social media mean a different scrutiny. Also, the function of the watch, and its status, have changed. From a major tool you'd actually used daily, to a commodity and a luxury item.

    Comparing the 2 is at best optimistic and missing the technological gap that separates their respective contexts.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saint-Just View Post
    The onus of the proof is on those who claim the existence. I doubt the claim.
    The 7750 is in far more lower priced watches than the opposite, and those usually have precious metals to justify their price point.

    But it remains a tractor of a calibre. Utilitarian yes, luxury no. It presents no horological interest other than being robust.

    What is left is the aesthetics, and they appear to have a decent finish. The dial is fine but no better than most. A Tag without Heuer, or a Breitling without history.

    It’s funny how that seems to upset you. I have no interest in their offerings at that price point, and take the trouble to explain why. If you like them, by all means buy them. You could even try and tell me why the 7750 is so interesting.
    You have the onus of proof the wrong way around.

    A quick internet search shows that the 7750 is indeed as you suggest, in more lower priced watches than higher, yet still in any number of higher priced watches. Logic would suggest that if a movement is robust, it would make sense to use it in a watch intended for robust use. The cost of that watch would then be determined by the whole and not the part.

    Aesthetics is subjective. My personal view is that they're far better than any Tag or Breitling that I've seen so far. I referenced a Brietling in a previous post.

    I'm curious as to why you think I'm upset? I'd quite happily buy you a drink and continue the discussion over a beverage or two on a nice summers evening. What I'm most curious about is how some people, yourself included, value a watch despite not knowing how much that watch might cost to produce. Your opinion is valid, as is mine, yet neither opinion is fact.

  24. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by oldoakknives View Post
    Perhaps if you answered what I actually say, it would help. So here goes.

    In my opinion the watch in question is not worth anything like over £12k, given it uses a fairly common, and old, movement which can be found in watches costing a fraction of the amount. The clock and day out aren't worth more than £1k, again in my opinion.

    You can make any argument you like, but it's unlikely I'll change my mind about that any more than I will convince you.

    No I never 'misread' it. You implied Bremont received more criticism than another brand, in that case Panerai. I referred to Rolex receiving a lot of criticism as well. I thought you would be able to make the connection.

    Well, if you want to be negative about Rolex because a Rolex owner was negative towards Bremont feel free. By the way I'm also an Omega, Dan Henry, Skagen, Rotary, Zeno, Timex, Lasser, Smiths, Braithwait and Seiko owner among others so you're going to have to be negative towards a lot of brands!

    Perhaps you have. In which case I hope it lives up to your expectations.
    I don't dispute your opinion, it's yours. However, it is just that and not fact. The movement can be found in any number of watches up to £10k in value so why just mention that it's found in watches at a fraction of the cost? Are you saying that all those higher priced watches are also too expensive? I have no intention of trying to change your opinion, just offering an alternative view and facts where they are missing.

    Regarding the brand criticism, I mentioned Bremont and Panerai due to the Panerai thread. Why bring Rolex into the discussion? Have you posted on the Panerai thread yet to offer your opinion as to how over priced it is? After all, it is a bronze watch at over £14k. That doesn't matter to me but it may to you.

    I'm not being negative about Rolex. Every chance you get you seem to either compare Bremont to Rolex or mention Rolex. I haven't heard you compare a Bremont to any of the other brands that you own.

    Fyi, every watch I like lives up to my expectations. Whether that be a Bremont, Grand Seiko, Panerai, Breguet or others. Unfortunately I struggle with Rolex, could never see the appeal. I'm not saying that they're not good watches, simply that I don't personally like most of them. I have seen two that I like but knowing that I could never own them, I'll spend my hard earned elsewhere.

  25. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by theancientmariner View Post
    You have the onus of proof the wrong way around.

    A quick internet search shows that the 7750 is indeed as you suggest, in more lower priced watches than higher, yet still in any number of higher priced watches. Logic would suggest that if a movement is robust, it would make sense to use it in a watch intended for robust use. The cost of that watch would then be determined by the whole and not the part.

    Aesthetics is subjective. My personal view is that they're far better than any Tag or Breitling that I've seen so far. I referenced a Brietling in a previous post.

    I'm curious as to why you think I'm upset? I'd quite happily buy you a drink and continue the discussion over a beverage or two on a nice summers evening. What I'm most curious about is how some people, yourself included, value a watch despite not knowing how much that watch might cost to produce. Your opinion is valid, as is mine, yet neither opinion is fact.
    Regarding proof, you cannot prove that something never existed. It is easy to prove it did. I do not get the onus the wrong way around.

    As to the calibre, one is entitled to expect more that just a tractor's engine if one buys a G-Wagen or a Discovery. The same is true for a watch.

    Aesthetics? my comment was not about pretty/not pretty, but about the finishing of the piece, and this can be evaluated fairly objectively. I wouldn't buy a Breitling but some of the dials I have seen were pretty faultless. the "I wouldn't buy" bit is where subjectivity intervenes: the watches are not at a price point I can reconcile with my perception of them. The same is true of Bremont. If you take a similarly priced Omega, you have a coaxial movement; you can find some column wheel chronographs. Those are more interesting and not less robust: the point of the case is to protect the movement, and as such (including on Bremont) to isolate it from the forces the watch is subjected to.
    Last edited by Saint-Just; 5th April 2021 at 16:00.
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  26. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by theancientmariner View Post
    I don't dispute your opinion, it's yours. However, it is just that and not fact. The movement can be found in any number of watches up to £10k in value so why just mention that it's found in watches at a fraction of the cost? Are you saying that all those higher priced watches are also too expensive?
    No, the thread wasn't about them, it was about the overpriced Bremont. And most are nearer the lower end of the pricing scale.

    Quote Originally Posted by theancientmariner View Post
    I have no intention of trying to change your opinion, just offering an alternative view and facts where they are missing.
    Well I'm grateful I'm sure for your help, but I'm not sure which facts you supplied that I didn't already know.
    Quote Originally Posted by theancientmariner View Post
    Regarding the brand criticism, I mentioned Bremont and Panerai due to the Panerai thread. Why bring Rolex into the discussion? Have you posted on the Panerai thread yet to offer your opinion as to how over priced it is? After all, it is a bronze watch at over £14k. That doesn't matter to me but it may to you.
    I refer you to my previous answer, perhaps you missed it.

    Quote Originally Posted by oldoakknives View Post
    .......You implied Bremont received more criticism than another brand, in that case Panerai. I referred to Rolex receiving a lot of criticism as well. I thought you would be able to make the connection. ............


    No I haven't posted on the other thread, and I don't see why being bronze should mean it's worth less.

    Quote Originally Posted by theancientmariner View Post
    I'm not being negative about Rolex. Every chance you get you seem to either compare Bremont to Rolex or mention Rolex. I haven't heard you compare a Bremont to any of the other brands that you own.

    Fyi, every watch I like lives up to my expectations. Whether that be a Bremont, Grand Seiko, Panerai, Breguet or others. Unfortunately I struggle with Rolex, could never see the appeal. I'm not saying that they're not good watches, simply that I don't personally like most of them. I have seen two that I like but knowing that I could never own them, I'll spend my hard earned elsewhere.
    I compared one Bremont to some Rolex watches earlier in another thread so hardly "Every chance you get you seem to either compare Bremont to Rolex or mention Rolex". I could compare it to other brands but why would I? My comparison with the Rolex models was making the point it was almost double the price of a Sub or Exp2 and in my opinion not worth that money.
    I still think it's overpriced by about £9k, and they haven't found 120 people yet who disagree enough to buy one.
    Last edited by oldoakknives; 6th April 2021 at 11:49.
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  27. #77
    Master bedlam's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saint-Just View Post
    That horse has bolted. The internet and its social media mean a different scrutiny. Also, the function of the watch, and its status, have changed. From a major tool you'd actually used daily, to a commodity and a luxury item.

    Comparing the 2 is at best optimistic and missing the technological gap that separates their respective contexts.
    I wasn't comparing technology I was comparing behaviour. Claiming its wrong for Bremont to do the things Rolex did to establish itself in the industry might suggests a double standard is present in some critics perspectives.

  28. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by bedlam View Post
    I wasn't comparing technology I was comparing behaviour. Claiming its wrong for Bremont to do the things Rolex did to establish itself in the industry might suggests a double standard is present in some critics perspectives.
    You compare the behaviour of a company 100 years ago to today. I claim that the comparison doesn’t work:
    1) what Rolex did was unknown to 99.9% of its customers.
    2) yet it was normal behaviour for a company at the time, just like it is normal today for some cars from different companies to only differ by the badge and equipment.
    3) the watch at the time was not unlike the car today: a tool that changed your every day life. Without one you struggled to keep on schedule for anything out of a strict routine, just like you struggle today to get around with limited public transport. By comparison a watch today is a luxury bobble whose time-giving function is superfluous. Consequently the owner’s expectations are different.

    Now there is nothing wrong with Bremont fitting a calibre from a different company. Most watchmakers do. There is something that I find unsatisfactory in fitting a cheap movement on an otherwise expensive watch but you are free to be happy with it.
    There is something wrong in claiming you developed one in-house when you didn’t because with today’s scrutiny you’re caught with your pants around your ankles and it makes you a laughing stock, but those laughing are a small minority of your customers and the laughs don’t last long. Uncomfortable but not life endangering.
    There is also a danger in creating a story telling that you do not back up. You mentioned Hillary and the Everest for Rolex but 80 years later this imposture has only very recently been exposed, and even among aficionados that knowledge is limited (outside the TZ-UK community). Bremont does not have that lack of scrutiny at its disposal.
    For these reasons using Rolex’s behaviour as an example Bremont could successfully emulate doesn’t resonate with me. You are of course perfectly entitled to disagree, and it will take more years than I have left to see conclusively if indeed it follows a similar path.
    'Against stupidity, the gods themselves struggle in vain' - Schiller.

  29. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saint-Just View Post
    You compare the behaviour of a company 100 years ago to today. I claim that the comparison doesn’t work:
    1) what Rolex did was unknown to 99.9% of its customers.
    2) yet it was normal behaviour for a company at the time, just like it is normal today for some cars from different companies to only differ by the badge and equipment.
    3) the watch at the time was not unlike the car today: a tool that changed your every day life. Without one you struggled to keep on schedule for anything out of a strict routine, just like you struggle today to get around with limited public transport. By comparison a watch today is a luxury bobble whose time-giving function is superfluous. Consequently the owner’s expectations are different.

    Now there is nothing wrong with Bremont fitting a calibre from a different company. Most watchmakers do. There is something that I find unsatisfactory in fitting a cheap movement on an otherwise expensive watch but you are free to be happy with it.
    There is something wrong in claiming you developed one in-house when you didn’t because with today’s scrutiny you’re caught with your pants around your ankles and it makes you a laughing stock, but those laughing are a small minority of your customers and the laughs don’t last long. Uncomfortable but not life endangering.
    There is also a danger in creating a story telling that you do not back up. You mentioned Hillary and the Everest for Rolex but 80 years later this imposture has only very recently been exposed, and even among aficionados that knowledge is limited (outside the TZ-UK community). Bremont does not have that lack of scrutiny at its disposal.
    For these reasons using Rolex’s behaviour as an example Bremont could successfully emulate doesn’t resonate with me. You are of course perfectly entitled to disagree, and it will take more years than I have left to see conclusively if indeed it follows a similar path.
    Fraud was ok years ago because it was easier to get away with? I think not. And Rolex is still trading off its hokey Everest story with no apparent backlash from the same people who snicker at Bremont's story.

    It appears to this observer there is one rule for Rolex and another for Bremont.

  30. #80
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    Fraud is always OK until it is detected. At the time Smiths (and others) were not very active to dispute the claim, and Rolex had been a part in previous expeditions.
    You are correct there is a double standard: 1 is a company that for the last 100 years has demonstrated a certain level of mass production horological excellence, and achieved an enviable position on the market; the other has been selling watches like they could have sold anything else: with a self-confessed lack of knowledge of horological matters but an undeniable marketing nous.
    They are taking as many pages from JCB's book as they can, but they are not taking the best ones. From his Hublot years, they've taken the 7750, the inflated pricing and the limited editions but without the fusion
    From his time at Omega where he snatched James Bond from Rolex, They've gone Kingsman. In a sadly ironic way, it says it all.
    And now they're creating "packages" where some would have you believe that the other elements of the package are worth more than the watch itself.

    Omega has worked hard over the last 10/15 years to justify an increase in price to be in direct competition with Rolex. Bremont seems to have decided that marketing is enough. It may be for you; it certainly was for a certain clientele from the East who bought Big Bangs by the bucket. But the parabola of the turkey and the bull comes to mind...

    At the end of the day, companies are fighting for your hard earned, and no rule says they have to play fair. Bremont have succeeded in as much as they are there and we're talking about them. After all, the same market says there is no such thing as bad publicity. Enjoy your watches, if they do it for you.
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  31. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saint-Just View Post
    Fraud is always OK until it is detected.
    Quoted for the benefit of those who might be tempted to do business with you.

    Given you will defend the indefensible further discussion is pointless.

  32. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by bedlam View Post
    Quoted for the benefit of those who might be tempted to do business with you.

    Given you will defend the indefensible further discussion is pointless.
    Lol. Stating the obvious is offensive? I have plenty of other truisms if you need any.

    But you're correct, there is no point in discussing it further. You want to link Bremont with Rolex and I think it's ridiculous. They belong to the Bell and Ross and Sinn at best (some of the calibre these brands use are better) and price themselves above Tag and Breitling.
    If they succeed good on them.
    Last edited by Saint-Just; 6th April 2021 at 12:03.
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  33. #83
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    Well...
    Bremont seems to inflame passions like no other!

    Like every other manufacturer, they have some cool stuff, some average stuff and some horrors.

    Not keen on fragments of history, and brand tie-ins, other than Martin Baker, and as a B&R owner (!) I think that is a brand they are similar to.

    As I've recently looked at Pilot type chronographs, their Alt1-P stands up pretty well to an IWC 3777 at less money and with more interesting case work. Their classics (ALT1-P, C, Z, and MB2) offer some interesting alternatives to the usual suspects.

    Dave

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  34. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by bedlam View Post
    Quoted for the benefit of those who might be tempted to do business with you.

    Given you will defend the indefensible further discussion is pointless.
    To be fair I don't think SJ was saying he thought "Fraud is always OK until it is detected." as a personal way of doing business! In fact I'm sure of it.
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  35. #85
    Grand Master oldoakknives's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saint-Just View Post
    Lol. Stating the obvious is offensive? I have plenty of other truisms if you need any.

    But you're correct, there is no point in discussing it further. You want to link Bremont with Rolex and I think it's ridiculous. They belong to the Bell and Ross and Sinn at best (some of the calibre these brands use are better) and price themselves above Tag and Breitling.
    If they succeed good on them.
    This.
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  36. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by oldoakknives View Post
    No, the thread wasn't about them, it was about the overpriced Bremont. And most are nearer the lower end of the pricing scale.

    Well I'm grateful I'm sure for your help, but I'm not sure which facts you supplied that I didn't already know.

    I refer you to my previous answer, perhaps you missed it.

    No I haven't posted on the other thread, and I don't see why being bronze should mean it's worth less.

    I compared one Bremont to some Rolex watches earlier in another thread so hardly "Every chance you get you seem to either compare Bremont to Rolex or mention Rolex". I could compare it to other brands but why would I? My comparison with the Rolex models was making the point it was almost double the price of a Sub or Exp2 and in my opinion not worth that money.
    I still think it's overpriced by about £9k, and they haven't found 120 people yet who disagree enough to buy one.
    Your contradictions astound me. Firstly, there are watches with the same movement as the Bremont in the same price bracket and without the 'package' as it has been politely referred to. So regardless of those watches at the lower end of the pricing scale, there are some at the higher end as well, a fact that you choose to ignore. So including that fact means that the Bremont is either not overpriced or all those watches are overpriced (in your opinion). I'm also confused as to why you think a steel watch (set) at £13k is overpriced yet a bronze watch at £14.3k isn't overpriced? Is it simply because you choose not to like the Bremont brand?

    I didn't mention any facts that you didn't already know, I was talking about facts that you choose to omit to reinforce your bias argument.

    I'm glad that you pointed out that those watches are still available to buy. Unlike a Rolex of course (as discussed on another forum thread) that aren't available to buy unless you are part of an elite section of society. There are of course lots of watches still available to buy from various manufacturers in the same price range, probably not from Rolex but many others. You see what I did there, mention Rolex as many times as possible, it's what some Rolex owners seem to do.

  37. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by oldoakknives View Post
    This.
    Again, a glaring contradiction. Bell & Ross have a stainless steel watch retailing for £15k so as you agree with SJ's post equating Bremont to Bell & Ross then a £13k stainless steel watch from Bremont must be perfectly acceptable.

  38. #88
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    Unhappy

    Quote Originally Posted by Saint-Just View Post
    Fraud is always OK until it is detected.
    Huh?

    I never thought you would be endorsing criminal activity? To be fair, I think I know what you mean but it's still wrong.

    I am quite intrigued by your associations though. If I worked for Bremont I would take being likened to Bell & Ross as a compliment. Very nice watches, quite a range of prices, all the way up to six figures and with a solid reputation. I'd rather not be likened to Rolex who have a reputation of being elitist, rarely want to sell you the watch that you want and in my opinion, aren't very attractive.

    May be one day someone will explain, with fact, why they think Rolex watches are superior to other brands. From what I've been told, they're no more accurate, scratch more easily and cost far more than they should. They certainly have an incredible marketing department.

  39. #89
    Journeyman theancientmariner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saint-Just View Post
    You want to link Bremont with Rolex and I think it's ridiculous. They belong to the Bell and Ross and Sinn at best (some of the calibre these brands use are better) and price themselves above Tag and Breitling..
    Watch snobbery at its best.

  40. #90
    Grand Master oldoakknives's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by theancientmariner View Post
    Your contradictions astound me. Firstly, there are watches with the same movement as the Bremont in the same price bracket and without the 'package' as it has been politely referred to. So regardless of those watches at the lower end of the pricing scale, there are some at the higher end as well, a fact that you choose to ignore. So including that fact means that the Bremont is either not overpriced or all those watches are overpriced (in your opinion).
    You seem to make a lot of assumptions about 'my opinions'.
    Quote Originally Posted by theancientmariner View Post
    I'm also confused as to why you think a steel watch (set) at £13k is overpriced yet a bronze watch at £14.3k isn't overpriced? Is it simply because you choose not to like the Bremont brand?
    I never said the bronze watch 'isn't overpriced'. I don't have to comment on the pricing of every watch to have an opinion about one in particular. I'm not a fan of Bremont it's true, but by the same token you seem to be rather obsessed with them and choose not to like Rolex. C'est la vie.


    Quote Originally Posted by theancientmariner View Post
    I didn't mention any facts that you didn't already know, I was talking about facts that you choose to omit to reinforce your bias argument.
    I'm not putting forward a thesis on why I think that watch is overpriced. It's simply an opinion. You can argue it's irrational, thats fine. But I still think it's a £3k watch.
    Quote Originally Posted by theancientmariner View Post
    I'm glad that you pointed out that those watches are still available to buy. Unlike a Rolex of course (as discussed on another forum thread) that aren't available to buy unless you are part of an elite section of society. There are of course lots of watches still available to buy from various manufacturers in the same price range, probably not from Rolex but many others. You see what I did there, mention Rolex as many times as possible, it's what some Rolex owners seem to do.
    I have bought Rolex but I'm hardly "part of an elite section of society." and thats a ridiculous assumption.

    Still plenty of the 120 worldwide limited edition Bremont available at £12.5k. If you think it's such good value.......
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  41. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by Passenger View Post
    Swedish Princess edition?
    Ha ! Very good :-)

  42. #92
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    I’m left scratching my head how anyone can try and justify that five figures is OK for a steel watch with a movement that should be well under £300 to buy in bulk. And if other brands are doing the same, it just means they’re also taking the proverbial.

  43. #93
    Quote Originally Posted by HookedSeven View Post
    I’m left scratching my head how anyone can try and justify that five figures is OK for a steel watch with a movement that should be well under £300 to buy in bulk. And if other brands are doing the same, it just means they’re also taking the proverbial.
    You’ve come to a watch site to try and rationalise value...I think you’re in the wrong place 🤣

  44. #94
    Craftsman HookedSeven's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dougair View Post
    You’ve come to a watch site to try and rationalise value...I think you’re in the wrong place 藍
    That’s a good observation !

    Even if I can’t rationalize the value of any modern watch, I can see better value in some than in others. Something like a NOMOS Lambda 39 has a solid gold case and an in-interesting in-house movement. Obviously completely different functionally and aesthetically, but a similar price point and I’m sure a much higher manufacturing cost than the Bremont. There’s nothing even remotely similar to the NOMOS for 1/3 the price, yet you can probably get A 7750 black cased chrono for 1/10 the price of the Bremont.

  45. #95
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    https://us.bremont.com/pages/bremont...x-pilots-watch

    This is possibly the only watch produced that is always be guaranteed to be late...

  46. #96
    Quote Originally Posted by Passenger View Post
    Swedish Princess edition?
    <cough>

  47. #97
    Grand Master oldoakknives's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sinnlover View Post
    https://us.bremont.com/pages/bremont...x-pilots-watch

    This is possibly the only watch produced that is always be guaranteed to be late...
    Do they do a 'Hermes' edition yet?
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  48. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sinnlover View Post
    https://us.bremont.com/pages/bremont...x-pilots-watch

    This is possibly the only watch produced that is always be guaranteed to be late...
    Yet it could be as late as you like and it would still arrive more quickly than a Rolex.

    I made two enquiries over this weekend. One for a Bremont which could be with me by the middle of next week should I wish, the second for a Rolex where I was told that I would have to make an appointment with a dealer and discuss what options were available as the online customer services didn't have access to that information. So goodness knows when or if that would ever turn up. More or less the same price point, same case material and very similar in terms of superficial build quality. Not a difficult choice then.

  49. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by oldoakknives View Post
    Do they do a 'Hermes' edition yet?
    I see that you still haven't scratched that itch.

  50. #100
    Quote Originally Posted by theancientmariner View Post
    Yet it could be as late as you like and it would still arrive more quickly than a Rolex.

    I made two enquiries over this weekend. One for a Bremont which could be with me by the middle of next week should I wish, the second for a Rolex where I was told that I would have to make an appointment with a dealer and discuss what options were available as the online customer services didn't have access to that information. So goodness knows when or if that would ever turn up. More or less the same price point, same case material and very similar in terms of superficial build quality. Not a difficult choice then.
    I think you missed the joke,..I think he meant as in FedEx are always late...

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