Audi A1 versus VW Polo - alleged damage and how best to handle ?

[flame]

Hi Guys

So my Son popped out this afternoon and there was a coming together between his Audi and a Friend's Polo. This part is correct and my Son holds his hand up to this fact.

However , the dispute is over the level of damage caused. Personally , I just don't believe the other party which had ( within 30x mins ) obtained a quote for the repairs of £350 ( and would accept same in cash settlement ). I was expecting to see a scuff not something out of Titanic !

I've indicated I'm not happy with that and we will likely proceed via Insurance claim ( in an attempt to flush them out ).....however this is my Son's 1st year driving & Insurance in his own name.

My Son's Audi A1:



VW Polo:




Comments & any suggestions welcome....

HAGWE -

Best Neil

[number2]

That's a big ''nope'' from me, impact height and length don't appear consistent, the Polo has been rubbed against something solid, that said - is the bonnet on the A1 meant to overhang the front wing?

[flame]

That's a big ''nope'' from me, impact height and length don't appear consistent, the Polo has been rubbed against something solid, that said - is the bonnet on the A1 meant to overhang the front wing?

Hi

Yes , just checked and that is normal & matches the other side too....the only damage to James' A1 is the missing paint. No dent or other marks/dings.

Best Neil

[aa388]

Looks like because it’s at such a shallow angle the bumper of the Audi has deformed slightly on impact and popped back whereas the skin on the Polos a bit screwed except where there’s something behind the skin. Just my thoughts though but worth investigating more.


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[Omegamanic]

Are you/your son disputing the damage was caused by the accident?

Is your son sure that he didn’t cause it, or of the opinion that he might have. £350 seems a pain, but it is a small price to pay for having a claim go against you through the insurance as the worst outcome if you are wrong.

[flame]

Are you/your son disputing the damage was caused by the accident?

Is your son sure that he didn’t cause it, or of the opinion that he might have. £350 seems a pain, but it is a small price to pay for having a claim go against you through the insurance as the worst outcome if you are wrong.

Hi

Thanks for the reply....

According to my Son and his circle of friends , the VW Polo already had suffered damage to this panel ( in fact the other side of the car is also damaged in exactly the same way and keyed the entire length ). The Car was bought in this condition and discounted due to the amount of bodywork issues.

The Car's definitely ' touched ' , but not to the level of damage the owner is suggesting. I did say to the lad involved was he 100% sure he wanted to go down this root as they have been friends for years....sadly that won't be possible anymore.

Best Neil

[lewie]

I Thought I read the word friend there - sorry to hear of the coming together- definitely not what friends are about

[shoppy]

Pay the £350 and move on with life; especially for your sons 1st year insurance renewal aggro.
Tell him to ditch the supposed friend.

[Halitosis]

We can probably assume that the damage wasn't (all) caused by your son's Audi.

However, such would be difficult to prove if push came to shove. I had less damage done to a car when a colleague reversed out of the adjoining parking space and scraped up the door panels. He insisted on paying for the repair, which I had done in a back-street shop (far from dealership prices) yet it still came to £1,100. The repair shop asked me if it was a cash or insurance job, and when I enquired why, they advised that were it done through insurance it would have cost more than double that.

All things considered, I'd pay the £350 and consider yourselves financially fortunate. But tell your son that his "mate" is not to be trusted

[mjc1216]

You have to notify the insurance company that there has been an accident even if you are not making a claim.

You could agree to pay the money and settle it but it could come back to bite you.

https://www.beckettandco.co.uk/notif...otor-insurers/

[flame]

Hi

Probably 1-2mph and a passenger in the Audi didn't even know cars had touched !

Best Neil

[bootneck]

I don’t think the Audi has caused that damage but £350 is probably less than the excess and definitely less than him being punished by insurance companies for 5 years. Pay the £350 and tell him to stay away from “friend” because they’re obviously not

[Snowdon]

Any witnesses or dash cam to corroborate?

It doesn't add up to me. I'm not sure the insurance co would rule against your son based on the pictures in this thread

[Onelasttime]

It looks like the friend wants an easy £350 and probably has no intention of getting the car repaired.

I would be tempted to tell him to whistle and call his bluff. Presumably they are the same age so friend's insurance would be affected as well.

Should friend decide to pursue the insurance claim, there's the small matter of having to prove there was a coming together to cause so much damage. Your son could quite honestly say he wasn't aware a collision had even occurred?

Failing that, offer to pay half and make the friend aware you know what he's up to.

I just wouldn't accept liability for that damage under circumstances.

[smalleyboy1]

If the Polo was fixed under insurance, I would expect that damage to cost more than £350 to repair after insurance companies, claim management companies, possibly hire cars etc are all factored in.

However the case remains if the Polo’s damage was as a result of the incident your son was part of.

Once, in stationary traffic the car behind me slipped forward and nudged me. Slight dent to bumper and chipped paint. A £450 respray ended up costing £1,800 after a claims management company got involved. I was disgusted at how a section of the insurance industry behaves.

[RobDad]

£350 seems a drop in the ocean compared to how much it would affect your son’s insurance if you make a claim. I’d just pay the £350 and move on.


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[IAmATeaf]

The white line on the Polo looks like where your sons car has touched the door, the line does not follow the dent so it must have been there from before.

Difficult to tell but I’d suspect that a rub over with a light rubbing compound would get rid of the paint transfer on the door of the Polo.

Agree with others that your friend son is trying it on and to me if he’s claiming that the dent and rippling was caused by your son then £350 to get it repaired will be a very shoddy job.

What would I do, tell your son that his friend is not a friend and insist to his ex friend that you’ll agree to pay the £350 after the car has been repaired but stipulate that you’ll only pay the agreed amount.

[mrsammyp]

Unless the claims engineer can argue that the damage couldn’t have been caused by the Audi, unless there are any witnesses, at best this is going to come out at 50/50.

Your son will lose part or all of the excess and no NCB will be earned. He will also have a fault claim on his record for 5 years.

I’d negotiate or pay the £350 excess and walk away.


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[MB2]

I would offer 250 but even if 350 is worth it both to avoid the claim but to get rid of the 'friend"

[kungfupanda]

People seem to be mixing up liability, quantum and causation issues here.

Liability. Your son has admitted fault for the accident. Why are people suggesting that he step back from that admission? Surely this would make him just as bad as his friend. Just because you’re not happy with the level of damages being sought doesn’t mean that the collision suddenly isn’t your son’s fault. He’d by lying if he now turns round and states that he was in fact not responsible for the accident.

Causation. Your son probably wasn’t responsible for all of the damage to the Polo which is pictured. How are you going to prove this? Witness statements from your son’s group of friends and a CPR Part 35 compliant from an expert automotive engineer. If the matter is handed to your insurer they will obviously arrange all of this and pay for the investigations.

Quantum. £350 is being claimed by the friend. Without seeing an estimate I can’t comment however it doesn’t seem unreasonable. For the person who said the friend might pocket the money without effecting the repair, he’s fully entitled to do that. Hire companies do the same thing each and everyday. They charge the hirer for damage caused to vehicles but if it’s minor it doesn’t get fixed. The damage fee just gets put into a pot to cover diminution of value of their asset due to the damage.

Is it really worth your son losing a year’s NCB bad having to declare an incident for the next 5 years simply to prove a point? If the matter gets handed to your insurer and it is accepted that your son is liable, how much do you think your insurance company is going to fight the causation and quantum aspects of the claim? If the matter becomes litigated, it will be allocated to the small claims track as special damages being claimed are under £10k and legal costs will not be recoverable.

Take a pragmatic approach and offer the other lad perhaps £250/£300 to end the matter.

[Jimmcb]

People seem to be mixing up liability, quantum and causation issues here.

Liability. Your son has admitted fault for the accident. Why are people suggesting that he step back from that admission? Surely this would make him just as bad as his friend. Just because you’re not happy with the level of damages being sought doesn’t mean that the collision suddenly isn’t your son’s fault. He’d by lying if he now turns round and states that he was in fact not responsible for the accident.

Causation. Your son probably wasn’t responsible for all of the damage to the Polo which is pictured. How are you going to prove this? Witness statements from your son’s group of friends and a CPR Part 35 compliant from an expert automotive engineer. If the matter is handed to your insurer they will obviously arrange all of this and pay for the investigations.

Quantum. £350 is being claimed by the friend. Without seeing an estimate I can’t comment however it doesn’t seem unreasonable. For the person who said the friend might pocket the money without effecting the repair, he’s fully entitled to do that. Hire companies do the same thing each and everyday. They charge the hirer for damage caused to vehicles but if it’s minor it doesn’t get fixed. The damage fee just gets put into a pot to cover diminution of value of their asset due to the damage.

Is it really worth your son losing a year’s NCB bad having to declare an incident for the next 5 years simply to prove a point? If the matter gets handed to your insurer and it is accepted that your son is liable, how much do you think your insurance company is going to fight the causation and quantum aspects of the claim? If the matter becomes litigated, it will be allocated to the small claims track as special damages being claimed are under £10k and legal costs will not be recoverable.

Take a pragmatic approach and offer the other lad perhaps £250/£300 to end the matter.

And the corroborated evidence of liability is where? ‘Sorry’ isn’t the admission of guilt I seem to recall. Might be wrong nowadays.

J

[kungfupanda]

And the corroborated evidence of liability is where? ‘Sorry’ isn’t the admission of guilt I seem to recall. Might be wrong nowadays.

J

I don’t think there was ever a mention of a “sorry”.

First paragraph of the OP’s post states that his son holds his hands up for the incident. I took this to mean that he admitted liability. Might be wrong nowadays.

[Jimmcb]

I don’t think there was ever a mention of a “sorry”.

First paragraph of the OP’s post states that his son holds his hands up for the incident. I took this to mean that he admitted liability. Might be wrong nowadays.

Touché

With tongue firmly in cheek: I was always of the view that taking something to mean something was to ASSUME and that is to make an ASS of U and ME together.

Thanks for exchange KFP. Good fun.

J

[Velvetsnow]

If communication has been via your son, you should take over negotiations. Visit the friend and look him in the eye and ask him if he is really trying to tell you that the damage was caused by the Audi? You should also get his parents involved they be more reluctant to be involved in this shakedown.

There's no way all that damage was caused by the Audi.

[flame]

Morning Gents

Thanks for all the replies & comments - I've just sent this:

Morning X
Having considered the situation further & to bring this matter to a close , we would be prepared to offer £250.00p payment via Bank Transfer today in full & final settlement of any claim against James/reg: K*** **D in respect of the incident that took place on Friday PM 26/03/21.

Best Neil

[TimeThoughts]

In contrast to other advice given above. For a cosmetic repair like this I would not contact your insurer in this case if you settle out of your own pocket.

I made this error a few years back. I bumped into a stationary car at under 3mph and cracked a number plate. I gave the other driver £200 and I knew the other driver as a person that lives relatively near to me. I even knew his name before this bump happened so was low risk of scam.

For some reason I informed my insurer who were very polite and told me at the time all was well.

At time of renewal my premium went through the roof, was 200% what it was before. When I asked what was going on they stated I had a 'future potential claim pending' and stated same on my no claims certificate so it was extremely difficult to move away from them.

[Saint-Just]

I really disagree with paying up.
1) your son must declare the incident to his insurance (read the contract).
2) your payment doesn’t stop them from claiming later, which on top would highlight the fact your son tried to buy his way out.

[kungfupanda]

I really disagree with paying up.
1) your son must declare the incident to his insurance (read the contract).
2) your payment doesn’t stop them from claiming later, which on top would highlight the fact your son tried to buy his way out.

Yes you’re right on both points.

Technically, the insurer has to be informed even if it’s for information purposes only.

No adverse inferences can really be drawn from the son attempting to settle the claim even if it’s just against vehicle damage only. There’s still nothing to stop the other party attempting to make other claims under other heads of damage such as personal injury...

[flame]

I really disagree with paying up.
1) your son must declare the incident to his insurance (read the contract).
2) your payment doesn’t stop them from claiming later, which on top would highlight the fact your son tried to buy his way out.

Hi

Just to be clear , I have declared the ' incident ' that took place to James' insurers. I have told them that at this point we do not wish to proceed any further.

It's proving a difficult one to call considering James is liable as he did come into contact with the other ( stationary ) car - it is the degree of that contact which is going to be extremely hard IMO to ultimately prove and win any claim ( I suspect best outcome being 50/50 ).

Then we have impact to his 1st year NCB and declaring for the next 5yrs.

I'll let you all know how things go today.

Best Neil

[Onelasttime]

.
2) your payment doesn’t stop them from claiming later, which on top would highlight the fact your son tried to buy his way out.

Exactly what I was thinking. I'm not sure 'buying his way out' would be an issue as he's paying for a repair in good faith rather than trying to defraud, but …

I can't imagine them claiming anyway because it's not about getting the car repaired, it's about getting some easy cash. The insurance company would insist on the repair with no money going to the friend so no point to it. And his insurance would be affected as well for raising a claim.

The more I think about it, the more I'd be inclined to tell friend to go through the proper insurance channels. I bet £50 to the fundraiser that he doesn't.

[flame]

Exactly what I was thinking. I'm not sure 'buying his way out' would be an issue as he's paying for a repair in good faith rather than trying to defraud, but …

I can't imagine them claiming anyway because it's not about getting the car repaired, it's about getting some easy cash. The insurance company would insist on the repair with no money going to the friend so no point to it. And his insurance would be affected as well for raising a claim.

The more I think about it, the more I'd be inclined to tell friend to go through the proper insurance channels. I bet £50 to the fundraiser that he doesn't.

Hi

Further ( surprising ) update....formal Insurance claim has been received this afternoon & communicated via phone call.

This could get interesting !

Any bets placed or hat eaters - please make good on your word....

Best Neil

[Montello]

Hi

Further ( surprising ) update....formal Insurance claim has been received this afternoon & communicated via phone call.

This could get interesting !

Any bets placed or hat eaters - please make good on your word....

Best Neil

I bet the parents are now involved in a face saving exercise now, possibly they will now be attempting insurance fraud.

Hopefully your insurance company will do the right thing and fight the claim, sadly all too often they just pay up as it’s cheaper for them.

[ernestrome]

As the person claimed against, is there anything you can do to ensure your insurance investigate suspected fraud. Is it purely a civil matter or potentially criminal?

[Onelasttime]

Hi

Further ( surprising ) update....formal Insurance claim has been received this afternoon & communicated via phone call.

This could get interesting !

Any bets placed or hat eaters - please make good on your word....

Best Neil

Ah feck, on both counts

It's pay day tomorrow so I'll make good.

I have to say, I'm surprised they're bothering and it could go pear-shaped if they're found to be making an exaggerated claim.

As someone else said, it's probably the stubborn parents not wanting to 'lose', but seems absurd assuming the car really was battered in the first place.

Keep us updated.

[NickGaters]

Hi

Further ( surprising ) update....formal Insurance claim has been received this afternoon & communicated via phone call.

This could get interesting !

Any bets placed or hat eaters - please make good on your word....

Best Neil

That’s amazing and disappointing in equal measures. Just shows how entitled some people are these days. Assume a whiplash claim will be along soon as well.

Hope you get it sorted either way. And think on the bright side at least your son knows who his friends are now!

[Sweepinghand]

I think £350 is the least of the worry compared to insurance excess and hassle

If he’s having you over for a few quid so be it

I’d get it in writing that’s the end of it at £350 though


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[uktotty]

If that Polo went in for repair under insurance they would write it off, 100% guaranteed that would be a cat N or whatever the modern, not economical repair thing is.
I find it very odd that nobody noticed contact that took 8 feet of bodywork out either!

[joe narvey]

The insurance investigator standards procedure would include check if the Polo has been the subject of previous claims and if it has been written off of any claimant history.

The insurance fraud bureau and city of london police can charge with insurance fraud on fraudulent claims included inflated value.

I do feel sorry for your son, a train of events is now in motion and you can now longer stop it with a reasonable solution.

I hope the peer pressure of their common friends is being carefully managed.

[flame]

Hi

As it's been a while , time for an interim update

So , several weeks ago I rang our Son's insurers ( Smart Wheels aka RSA ) to see how things were progressing. I was informed by the lady on the phone that RSA had found against us and instructed the repairs to the 3rd party's car to proceed !

This led to me questioning whether anyone had actually reviewed the images & comments of the claim and confirmed we would not accept the quantum part of the claim and suggested anything they had agreed to was retracted.

4x hours later I received a call back to confirm everything was now on hold and that an independent assessor had been instructed to report on both vehicles.

Now it gets really interesting , as a couple of weeks later my Son informs me that the 3rd parties car has been repaired. Not just the damage to the rear driver's side passenger door , but ALL the historic damage to both sides and rear of the vehicle. I check once again with RSA and they confirm all the repairs are still on hold , however the 3rd parties insurers may have gone ahead still - I reiterate our position.

Now following the above news , the independent assessor ( Hoopers ) visit & write a report on my Son's car , something along the lines of very light/slight evidence of collision , no structural damage.

However , Hoopers are unable to date to gain access to the 3rd parties car ( which sits on their drive approx 1/2 mile away ) despite phone call , email & letter sent. They've basically gone quiet on them....and this has been going on since 07/05/21.

I'm waiting on the Claim handler at RSA to give me a call with what now actually happens it this situation continues ?

Best Neil

[Montello]

What a waste of time and money, all caused by someone trying it on.

No wonder premiums are high.

[kungfupanda]

Perhaps the third party have gone to their own insurers to deal with the repairs to their vehicle and they will subsequently approach your son’s insurer for recovery of their outlay. Maybe they paid extra for other damage to be fixed whilst it was in the bodyshop?

It’s not worth the mental turmoil to be worrying about what the third party has or hasn’t claimed for. Your son has an at fault claim to declare. The value of said claim will have negligible impact on how his premium is loaded.

[flame]

Perhaps the third party have gone to their own insurers to deal with the repairs to their vehicle and they will subsequently approach your son’s insurer for recovery of their outlay. Maybe they paid extra for other damage to be fixed whilst it was in the bodyshop?

It’s not worth the mental turmoil to be worrying about what the third party has or hasn’t claimed for. Your son has an at fault claim to declare. The value of said claim will have negligible impact on how his premium is loaded.

Hi

Thanks for the reply....which I accept & broadly agree with.

I don't quite follow why the 3rd parties insurers would proceed with any repair ( during late April ) prior to the independent assessor's report being issued ( still OS ) which could support their client's case ? I'm of the opinion we could have sorted it with bottle of T-cut....so I'm assuming the repairs to any damage of the 3rd parties car caused by my son need to have been fully documented ( both written & digital images ) and itemised ?

Failure to allow access to the repaired vehicle also has a certain aroma to it.

Best Neil

[wileeeeeey]

Similar story here re dodgy claims. On my motorbike a car driver went to change lanes on a dual carriageway and didn't see me. He pulled over, apologised, admitted liability, then tried to give me cash to not go through the insurance. I said I'd get a quote from a local garage and he could pay them. He agreed.

I sent him the quote, he told me to f off, hung up, and when I called the insurance they said I was speeding, hit into him and there were five people in the car all with whiplash and as it's was a lane change accident without any witnesses it would have to go 50/50.

I had a GoPro on my helmet which showed everything - including just him in the car without any passengers - they paid out instantly. Now I have a dash cam in the car too.

[flame]

Gents

For anyone still interested in this sorry saga....

We were advised today that RSA have closed the claim in favour of the 3rd party.

So this mark on my Son's car caused £1318.82p of damage to the VW Polo. He lost his 1st year No Claims too.

Bag of sh*t* IMHO



HAGWE -

Best Neil

[kungfupanda]

Ahh well. Look at the positives. At least it brings closure to the whole sorry saga and your son knows who his friends really are.

[Maysie]

Try to look on the bright side if you can as it is done now.

Easier said than done I know, but it is best to move on - as annoying and hard as that may be!

Life is genuinely far too short to worry about things like this at this stage as the outcome will not change however much you stress about it and it will just eat you up.
Crack open a beer and enjoy the weekend with your family.

[Captaincook]

That’s annoying for you and your son. Hopefully lessons learnt and now you can close this door and forget about it.

[dougair]

Does the other party have a letterbox…

[AlphaOmega]

What's a friendship worth?

I often ask myself this question. Now we know. £1,318.82.

[Mj2k]

What's a friendship worth?

I often ask myself this question. Now we know. £1,318.82.

Well said.

Disgusting behaviour by his hopefully now ex friend.


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