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Thread: Audi A1 versus VW Polo - alleged damage and how best to handle ?

  1. #1

    Audi A1 versus VW Polo - alleged damage and how best to handle ?

    Hi Guys

    So my Son popped out this afternoon and there was a coming together between his Audi and a Friend's Polo. This part is correct and my Son holds his hand up to this fact.

    However , the dispute is over the level of damage caused. Personally , I just don't believe the other party which had ( within 30x mins ) obtained a quote for the repairs of £350 ( and would accept same in cash settlement ). I was expecting to see a scuff not something out of Titanic !

    I've indicated I'm not happy with that and we will likely proceed via Insurance claim ( in an attempt to flush them out ).....however this is my Son's 1st year driving & Insurance in his own name.

    My Son's Audi A1:



    VW Polo:




    Comments & any suggestions welcome....

    HAGWE -

    Best Neil
    Last edited by flame; 27th March 2021 at 20:50.

  2. #2
    Grand Master number2's Avatar
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    That's a big ''nope'' from me, impact height and length don't appear consistent, the Polo has been rubbed against something solid, that said - is the bonnet on the A1 meant to overhang the front wing?
    Last edited by number2; 26th March 2021 at 19:14.
    "Once is happenstance. Twice is coincidence. The third time it's enemy action."

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by number2 View Post
    That's a big ''nope'' from me, impact height and length don't appear consistent, the Polo has been rubbed against something solid, that said - is the bonnet on the A1 meant to overhang the front wing?
    Hi

    Yes , just checked and that is normal & matches the other side too....the only damage to James' A1 is the missing paint. No dent or other marks/dings.

    Best Neil

  4. #4
    Craftsman
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    Looks like because it’s at such a shallow angle the bumper of the Audi has deformed slightly on impact and popped back whereas the skin on the Polos a bit screwed except where there’s something behind the skin. Just my thoughts though but worth investigating more.


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  5. #5
    Are you/your son disputing the damage was caused by the accident?

    Is your son sure that he didn’t cause it, or of the opinion that he might have. £350 seems a pain, but it is a small price to pay for having a claim go against you through the insurance as the worst outcome if you are wrong.
    It's just a matter of time...

  6. #6
    Hi

    Probably 1-2mph and a passenger in the Audi didn't even know cars had touched !

    Best Neil

  7. #7
    Master
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    I don’t think the Audi has caused that damage but £350 is probably less than the excess and definitely less than him being punished by insurance companies for 5 years. Pay the £350 and tell him to stay away from “friend” because they’re obviously not

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Omegamanic View Post
    Are you/your son disputing the damage was caused by the accident?

    Is your son sure that he didn’t cause it, or of the opinion that he might have. £350 seems a pain, but it is a small price to pay for having a claim go against you through the insurance as the worst outcome if you are wrong.
    Hi

    Thanks for the reply....

    According to my Son and his circle of friends , the VW Polo already had suffered damage to this panel ( in fact the other side of the car is also damaged in exactly the same way and keyed the entire length ). The Car was bought in this condition and discounted due to the amount of bodywork issues.

    The Car's definitely ' touched ' , but not to the level of damage the owner is suggesting. I did say to the lad involved was he 100% sure he wanted to go down this root as they have been friends for years....sadly that won't be possible anymore.

    Best Neil

  9. #9
    Master
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    I Thought I read the word friend there - sorry to hear of the coming together- definitely not what friends are about

  10. #10
    Master
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    Pay the £350 and move on with life; especially for your sons 1st year insurance renewal aggro.
    Tell him to ditch the supposed friend.
    Last edited by shoppy; 26th March 2021 at 20:17.

  11. #11
    Craftsman Halitosis's Avatar
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    We can probably assume that the damage wasn't (all) caused by your son's Audi.

    However, such would be difficult to prove if push came to shove. I had less damage done to a car when a colleague reversed out of the adjoining parking space and scraped up the door panels. He insisted on paying for the repair, which I had done in a back-street shop (far from dealership prices) yet it still came to £1,100. The repair shop asked me if it was a cash or insurance job, and when I enquired why, they advised that were it done through insurance it would have cost more than double that.

    All things considered, I'd pay the £350 and consider yourselves financially fortunate. But tell your son that his "mate" is not to be trusted

  12. #12
    Master
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    You have to notify the insurance company that there has been an accident even if you are not making a claim.

    You could agree to pay the money and settle it but it could come back to bite you.

    https://www.beckettandco.co.uk/notif...otor-insurers/

  13. #13
    Master smalleyboy1's Avatar
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    If the Polo was fixed under insurance, I would expect that damage to cost more than £350 to repair after insurance companies, claim management companies, possibly hire cars etc are all factored in.

    However the case remains if the Polo’s damage was as a result of the incident your son was part of.

    Once, in stationary traffic the car behind me slipped forward and nudged me. Slight dent to bumper and chipped paint. A £450 respray ended up costing £1,800 after a claims management company got involved. I was disgusted at how a section of the insurance industry behaves.

  14. #14
    Any witnesses or dash cam to corroborate?

    It doesn't add up to me. I'm not sure the insurance co would rule against your son based on the pictures in this thread

  15. #15
    Master Onelasttime's Avatar
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    It looks like the friend wants an easy £350 and probably has no intention of getting the car repaired.

    I would be tempted to tell him to whistle and call his bluff. Presumably they are the same age so friend's insurance would be affected as well.

    Should friend decide to pursue the insurance claim, there's the small matter of having to prove there was a coming together to cause so much damage. Your son could quite honestly say he wasn't aware a collision had even occurred?

    Failing that, offer to pay half and make the friend aware you know what he's up to.

    I just wouldn't accept liability for that damage under circumstances.

  16. #16
    £350 seems a drop in the ocean compared to how much it would affect your son’s insurance if you make a claim. I’d just pay the £350 and move on.


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  17. #17
    Master
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    Worth your son trawling through the other lad’s Facebook / Instagram? There might be a photo of the car on there showing the existing damage?

    Sounds like your son needs better friends!

  18. #18
    Master thegoat's Avatar
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    I think your son should choose his ‘friends’ better.
    He/she is trying it on .
    I’m not a huge fan of dash cams but this is an incident of where it would be hugely beneficial .
    The other issue is that this scars the driver and makes him more cynical going forward . It’s like rinse and repeat .

  19. #19
    Master
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    Sounds iffy, are you sure you have the full story?

    Doesn’t sound like much of a friend squeezing you for cash.

    What were the circumstances of the coming together?

  20. #20
    Master
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    How big is his dad?

  21. #21
    Master IAmATeaf's Avatar
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    The white line on the Polo looks like where your sons car has touched the door, the line does not follow the dent so it must have been there from before.

    Difficult to tell but I’d suspect that a rub over with a light rubbing compound would get rid of the paint transfer on the door of the Polo.

    Agree with others that your friend son is trying it on and to me if he’s claiming that the dent and rippling was caused by your son then £350 to get it repaired will be a very shoddy job.

    What would I do, tell your son that his friend is not a friend and insist to his ex friend that you’ll agree to pay the £350 after the car has been repaired but stipulate that you’ll only pay the agreed amount.

  22. #22
    Craftsman
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    If it was my son, I would probably ask him to argue the case but agree to stump up part of the £350, touch up the Audi, tell him not to worry about it and move on quickly. With the passenger, they should have a good case, to happily argue the damage caused.

    Hopefully it will be a easy lesson learnt. I personally learnt the harder way with many years of high premiums....

    In the back of my mind the 'friend' is taking advantage but believe what goes around comes around.
    Last edited by Captaincook; 26th March 2021 at 21:12. Reason: Missed half the replies

  23. #23
    Master
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    My wife ‘kiss touched’ an old beat up car at 1-2mph max - their car with 4 folk in it.

    Details exchanged and agreement that no ‘damage’ occurred. Cars drove away and drivers all happy and smily - ‘just one of those things!’

    On renewal we found they’d claimed their insurance for damage, injury and stress and received £24k comp WITHOUT us being consulted. How the hell they managed that we couldn’t work out. Until it was shared with us from discrete enquiries that one of the darling passengers was an admin worker in a lawyers office who raised the comp claim.

    Schisters and insurance company not much better. We fought it but was futile.

    Impact is: wife has to declare ‘no fault’ accident crash but with payout of large sum for every renewal since and pay upped premium.

    What is wrong with folk!

    Jim

  24. #24
    Master
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    Your sons friend (perhaps with parental pressure) is trying it on. Bizarrely quick and specific quote for the repair (which seems too cheap) sounds dodgy too.

    Tricky situation but maybe a lesson for next time: never admit responsibility.

  25. #25
    Master
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    Many years ago, a lady reversed into one of the rear doors of my Hyundai in a multi-storey car park in Nottingham. She was horrified when she saw the extent to which the door was damaged when she got out of her car. There was a long, shallow dent and it was conspicuously scraped. Fortunately her rear bumper didn't seem to be marked.

    I didn't let on that my car had been like that for months.

    But I did tell her just to forget about it, as it was an old car.

  26. #26
    Craftsman
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jimmcb View Post
    My wife ‘kiss touched’ an old beat up car at 1-2mph max - their car with 4 folk in it.

    Details exchanged and agreement that no ‘damage’ occurred. Cars drove away and drivers all happy and smily - ‘just one of those things!’

    On renewal we found they’d claimed their insurance for damage, injury and stress and received £24k comp WITHOUT us being consulted. How the hell they managed that we couldn’t work out. Until it was shared with us from discrete enquiries that one of the darling passengers was an admin worker in a lawyers office who raised the comp claim.

    Schisters and insurance company not much better. We fought it but was futile.

    Impact is: wife has to declare ‘no fault’ accident crash but with payout of large sum for every renewal since and pay upped premium.

    What is wrong with folk!

    Jim
    In this case, for their claim to go through your insurance company without consulting yourselves, had you logged the accident and admitted fault to your own insurance company? How did your insurance co validate their claim?

  27. #27
    The Polo has has two separate hits on that door. The first was likely a post or corner of a wall, creating the sharp dent in the crease line. The second was a paint transfer from your sons car. There is no way the damage on your sons car has caused the damage on the Polo, no way at all.

    It’s likely the paint transfer would simply t-cut away. I doubt it has removed paint from the Polo.

    Unfortunately, it seems the Polo owner has other ideas. It would cost quite a bit more than £350 to repair that dent properly. Where it is, and the damage it has, would take a lot of metal work to make right, so a new skin would be quicker and more cost effective.

    I don’t think involving the insurance company would help here. Threaten it maybe with the impression a qualified assessor might want a look at the damage to both cars.

    in the end, £350 cash might be the cheapest solution...or offer less and see what happens.

  28. #28
    Master thieuster's Avatar
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    Play the game! First, ask for a written estimation of the repair costs. Tell him it's a fair quote and agree with the 350 gbp but only to pay it to the shop that repairs the Polo - after the repair. If he's legit, it wouldn't make any difference to the Polo's owner(...) Or, settle for 250 gbp cash-in-hand and 'de-friend' the Polo owner. Let's see what happens.

  29. #29
    Master
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    Human intuition is pretty darn good; “gut instinct”. If yours is telling you that you’re being conned, then very likely you are. That doesn’t change the situation, but it does mean you need to de-friend this lad.

    Sadly, you’re going to need to either pay out or fight it. Be aware that you could make a cash settlement (eg counter with £200) but they may still later go via insurers / solicitors for another claim. Frankly, I’d bite the bullet and insist on involving insurers. It might flush out their con, it might not, but you’re protecting yourself.

    And next time, don’t buy your lad a girls car!

  30. #30
    Craftsman
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    Unless the claims engineer can argue that the damage couldn’t have been caused by the Audi, unless there are any witnesses, at best this is going to come out at 50/50.

    Your son will lose part or all of the excess and no NCB will be earned. He will also have a fault claim on his record for 5 years.

    I’d negotiate or pay the £350 excess and walk away.


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  31. #31
    I would offer 250 but even if 350 is worth it both to avoid the claim but to get rid of the 'friend"

  32. #32
    Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by Captaincook View Post
    In this case, for their claim to go through your insurance company without consulting yourselves, had you logged the accident and admitted fault to your own insurance company? How did your insurance co validate their claim?
    That’s what we asked and the insurance company ummed and aggghed and eventually said they’d tried to call us with no reply. So in absentia they’d gone ahead and agreed terms etc. Bollocks! Be warned.

    At the end of the day we left them and have now gone beyond the need to mention the incident on insurance applications.

    J

  33. #33
    Master
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    As said looks like a series of dings on the car, I’d suggest going via insurance and ask for their details to pass on to yours, at the same time I’d say I’d mention both sides premiums going up. See how it pans out they might just let it go, then again the insurance company may decide it’s a fraudulent claim by the other party, my wife’s car got hit and we already had a parking scrape from a wall on the car, when it was in the garage they asked if both were being fixed, we explained only one was due to the accident but got a quote and paid for the other, then we had a call claiming we had acted fraudulently in getting the insurance to pay for both, when they checked with the garage we got an apology and it turned out the driver wasn’t insured to drive the car that hit us only their wife was.

    Another time the wife had an accident the driver who hit her was happy to pay cash so we went to the trouble of getting a couple of quotes and rung them up and then they decided they didn’t want to pay, so it went via the insurance at which time they claimed my wife had driven in to them, which was odd as the damage to them was front end and us back end, and then they suddenly had a whiplash claim as well.

    You pay a fortune for insurance so use it, yes premium may increase, but at least you can draw a line under it and would cost £350 in increased premiums in the long run, who knows. But at least it’s peace of mind that it’s been dealt with properly with no come backs.

  34. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by thieuster View Post
    Play the game! First, ask for a written estimation of the repair costs. Tell him it's a fair quote and agree with the 350 gbp but only to pay it to the shop that repairs the Polo - after the repair. If he's legit, it wouldn't make any difference to the Polo's owner(...) Or, settle for 250 gbp cash-in-hand and 'de-friend' the Polo owner. Let's see what happens.
    In a world with no repercussions this is great. The aggrieved party is obviously a wide boy, probably supported by wide boy parents. OPs lad has to walk or drive the streets and with Wideo on the same streets it could be a challenge. Face him up now not meekly but by meeting fire with the fire. Tell him to feck off and do one. But be prepared for fall out. Best form of defence is sometimes attack! And old ww2 bomber pilot friend once said he ordered his gunners to double the amount of bullets for going into sorties and hit the enemy and keep hitting them. Good analogy for denying paying anything here. Then again Blackmail is probably what’s going down here. Acquiesce or stand up.

    J

    Does the polo have insurance???
    Last edited by Jimmcb; 27th March 2021 at 10:02.

  35. #35
    People seem to be mixing up liability, quantum and causation issues here.

    Liability. Your son has admitted fault for the accident. Why are people suggesting that he step back from that admission? Surely this would make him just as bad as his friend. Just because you’re not happy with the level of damages being sought doesn’t mean that the collision suddenly isn’t your son’s fault. He’d by lying if he now turns round and states that he was in fact not responsible for the accident.

    Causation. Your son probably wasn’t responsible for all of the damage to the Polo which is pictured. How are you going to prove this? Witness statements from your son’s group of friends and a CPR Part 35 compliant from an expert automotive engineer. If the matter is handed to your insurer they will obviously arrange all of this and pay for the investigations.

    Quantum. £350 is being claimed by the friend. Without seeing an estimate I can’t comment however it doesn’t seem unreasonable. For the person who said the friend might pocket the money without effecting the repair, he’s fully entitled to do that. Hire companies do the same thing each and everyday. They charge the hirer for damage caused to vehicles but if it’s minor it doesn’t get fixed. The damage fee just gets put into a pot to cover diminution of value of their asset due to the damage.

    Is it really worth your son losing a year’s NCB bad having to declare an incident for the next 5 years simply to prove a point? If the matter gets handed to your insurer and it is accepted that your son is liable, how much do you think your insurance company is going to fight the causation and quantum aspects of the claim? If the matter becomes litigated, it will be allocated to the small claims track as special damages being claimed are under £10k and legal costs will not be recoverable.

    Take a pragmatic approach and offer the other lad perhaps £250/£300 to end the matter.

  36. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by bloater View Post
    As said looks like a series of dings on the car, I’d suggest going via insurance and ask for their details to pass on to yours, at the same time I’d say I’d mention both sides premiums going up. See how it pans out they might just let it go, then again the insurance company may decide it’s a fraudulent claim by the other party, my wife’s car got hit and we already had a parking scrape from a wall on the car, when it was in the garage they asked if both were being fixed, we explained only one was due to the accident but got a quote and paid for the other, then we had a call claiming we had acted fraudulently in getting the insurance to pay for both, when they checked with the garage we got an apology and it turned out the driver wasn’t insured to drive the car that hit us only their wife was.

    Another time the wife had an accident the driver who hit her was happy to pay cash so we went to the trouble of getting a couple of quotes and rung them up and then they decided they didn’t want to pay, so it went via the insurance at which time they claimed my wife had driven in to them, which was odd as the damage to them was front end and us back end, and then they suddenly had a whiplash claim as well.

    You pay a fortune for insurance so use it, yes premium may increase, but at least you can draw a line under it and would cost £350 in increased premiums in the long run, who knows. But at least it’s peace of mind that it’s been dealt with properly with no come backs.
    +1

  37. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by kungfupanda View Post
    People seem to be mixing up liability, quantum and causation issues here.

    Liability. Your son has admitted fault for the accident. Why are people suggesting that he step back from that admission? Surely this would make him just as bad as his friend. Just because you’re not happy with the level of damages being sought doesn’t mean that the collision suddenly isn’t your son’s fault. He’d by lying if he now turns round and states that he was in fact not responsible for the accident.

    Causation. Your son probably wasn’t responsible for all of the damage to the Polo which is pictured. How are you going to prove this? Witness statements from your son’s group of friends and a CPR Part 35 compliant from an expert automotive engineer. If the matter is handed to your insurer they will obviously arrange all of this and pay for the investigations.

    Quantum. £350 is being claimed by the friend. Without seeing an estimate I can’t comment however it doesn’t seem unreasonable. For the person who said the friend might pocket the money without effecting the repair, he’s fully entitled to do that. Hire companies do the same thing each and everyday. They charge the hirer for damage caused to vehicles but if it’s minor it doesn’t get fixed. The damage fee just gets put into a pot to cover diminution of value of their asset due to the damage.

    Is it really worth your son losing a year’s NCB bad having to declare an incident for the next 5 years simply to prove a point? If the matter gets handed to your insurer and it is accepted that your son is liable, how much do you think your insurance company is going to fight the causation and quantum aspects of the claim? If the matter becomes litigated, it will be allocated to the small claims track as special damages being claimed are under £10k and legal costs will not be recoverable.

    Take a pragmatic approach and offer the other lad perhaps £250/£300 to end the matter.
    And the corroborated evidence of liability is where? ‘Sorry’ isn’t the admission of guilt I seem to recall. Might be wrong nowadays.

    J

  38. #38
    If communication has been via your son, you should take over negotiations. Visit the friend and look him in the eye and ask him if he is really trying to tell you that the damage was caused by the Audi? You should also get his parents involved they be more reluctant to be involved in this shakedown.

    There's no way all that damage was caused by the Audi.

  39. #39
    Morning Gents

    Thanks for all the replies & comments - I've just sent this:

    Morning X
    Having considered the situation further & to bring this matter to a close , we would be prepared to offer £250.00p payment via Bank Transfer today in full & final settlement of any claim against James/reg: K*** **D in respect of the incident that took place on Friday PM 26/03/21.

    Best Neil

  40. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by Jimmcb View Post
    And the corroborated evidence of liability is where? ‘Sorry’ isn’t the admission of guilt I seem to recall. Might be wrong nowadays.

    J
    I don’t think there was ever a mention of a “sorry”.

    First paragraph of the OP’s post states that his son holds his hands up for the incident. I took this to mean that he admitted liability. Might be wrong nowadays.

  41. #41
    Master TimeThoughts's Avatar
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    In contrast to other advice given above. For a cosmetic repair like this I would not contact your insurer in this case if you settle out of your own pocket.

    I made this error a few years back. I bumped into a stationary car at under 3mph and cracked a number plate. I gave the other driver £200 and I knew the other driver as a person that lives relatively near to me. I even knew his name before this bump happened so was low risk of scam.

    For some reason I informed my insurer who were very polite and told me at the time all was well.

    At time of renewal my premium went through the roof, was 200% what it was before. When I asked what was going on they stated I had a 'future potential claim pending' and stated same on my no claims certificate so it was extremely difficult to move away from them.

  42. #42
    Grand Master Saint-Just's Avatar
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    I really disagree with paying up.
    1) your son must declare the incident to his insurance (read the contract).
    2) your payment doesn’t stop them from claiming later, which on top would highlight the fact your son tried to buy his way out.
    'Against stupidity, the gods themselves struggle in vain' - Schiller.

  43. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by Saint-Just View Post
    I really disagree with paying up.
    1) your son must declare the incident to his insurance (read the contract).
    2) your payment doesn’t stop them from claiming later, which on top would highlight the fact your son tried to buy his way out.
    Yes you’re right on both points.

    Technically, the insurer has to be informed even if it’s for information purposes only.

    No adverse inferences can really be drawn from the son attempting to settle the claim even if it’s just against vehicle damage only. There’s still nothing to stop the other party attempting to make other claims under other heads of damage such as personal injury...

  44. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by Saint-Just View Post
    I really disagree with paying up.
    1) your son must declare the incident to his insurance (read the contract).
    2) your payment doesn’t stop them from claiming later, which on top would highlight the fact your son tried to buy his way out.
    Hi

    Just to be clear , I have declared the ' incident ' that took place to James' insurers. I have told them that at this point we do not wish to proceed any further.

    It's proving a difficult one to call considering James is liable as he did come into contact with the other ( stationary ) car - it is the degree of that contact which is going to be extremely hard IMO to ultimately prove and win any claim ( I suspect best outcome being 50/50 ).

    Then we have impact to his 1st year NCB and declaring for the next 5yrs.

    I'll let you all know how things go today.

    Best Neil
    Last edited by flame; 27th March 2021 at 10:51.

  45. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by kungfupanda View Post
    I don’t think there was ever a mention of a “sorry”.

    First paragraph of the OP’s post states that his son holds his hands up for the incident. I took this to mean that he admitted liability. Might be wrong nowadays.
    Touché

    With tongue firmly in cheek: I was always of the view that taking something to mean something was to ASSUME and that is to make an ASS of U and ME together.

    Thanks for exchange KFP. Good fun.

    J

  46. #46
    Liability for the damage he caused presumably, not the extensive prior damage?

  47. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by ernestrome View Post
    Liability for the damage he caused presumably, not the extensive prior damage?
    Agreed

  48. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by Jimmcb View Post
    Touché

    With tongue firmly in cheek: I was always of the view that taking something to mean something was to ASSUME and that is to make an ASS of U and ME together.

    Thanks for exchange KFP. Good fun.

    J
    Have a good weekend pal!

  49. #49
    Master Onelasttime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saint-Just View Post
    .
    2) your payment doesn’t stop them from claiming later, which on top would highlight the fact your son tried to buy his way out.
    Exactly what I was thinking. I'm not sure 'buying his way out' would be an issue as he's paying for a repair in good faith rather than trying to defraud, but …

    I can't imagine them claiming anyway because it's not about getting the car repaired, it's about getting some easy cash. The insurance company would insist on the repair with no money going to the friend so no point to it. And his insurance would be affected as well for raising a claim.

    The more I think about it, the more I'd be inclined to tell friend to go through the proper insurance channels. I bet £50 to the fundraiser that he doesn't.

  50. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by kungfupanda View Post
    Have a good weekend pal!
    And you. Ta for banter. Sadly missing from here these days.

    Keep safe

    J

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