I know I've started two threads recently on buying a Tag Heuer Monaco - and buying from Chrono24.
Much to my shame, I've ignored some advice regarding "try before you buy" though I'm comfortable with the size of my imposter.
I also thought buying from Chrono24 would give me a pretty good chance of buying the 'real deal' I very much doubt there are many fakes for sale there, but I've struck it lucky and feel confident mine is a wrong-un.
Chrono24 has professional dealers who've been vetted, the watches have an assurance of authenticity and my money is held (supposedly) until I confirm receipt and my unbounding joy with my purchase.
I had two phone conversations with the dealer (UK) seemed genuine and decent. Told me the watch came to him via another dealer and was an ex-display model. If it is a fake I genuinely wonder if he knew.
Not sure I could've done any more to avoid this.
The watch - Tag Heuer Monaco Ltd Edition Automobile Club de Monaco.
I love it apart from:
* Date wheel print and alignment - does not look right?
* should be a sapphire crystal - certainly no AR which I would expect and water 'smears' over it.
* Croc' / 'gator strap feels like cardboard.
* The Ltd Ed number is indistinct and there's something going on with finishing next to it. It's almost as if the xxx/1200 has been buffed off. So no idea what number of 1200 it should be.
* Serial number is in the right format but I was hoping to find a number check on the net, but can't. Anyone help please?
* Setting time - movement hacks, St time to the second, start watch but the minute hands lags by 30 secs. Like backlash in the movement.
* Booklet is for a Quartz alarm. Warranty card should have a hologram but is stamped Nov 2018 but no sellers name.
I've spoken to Chrono24 and they're to ring back. Should be OK, I've got 14 days to return and it's paid via CC.
A few pictures, if someone could confirm my thoughts. Feeling rather fed up with a chunk of cash in limbo <sniff>
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Last edited by jacinabox; 1st April 2021 at 17:10.
I had a (genuine) Tag Heure Carrera I few years ago. It had exactly the same minute/second hand lag that you describe.
The serial number being polished does seem a bit odd. Given what you have said I would be sending it back no matter what. Even if it turns out to be genuine it sounds like there are too many flaws for you to enjoy it.
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The state of the back of the watch would make me send it back, even if it’s genuine.
Cheers
Rory
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If not fake, then it still might be stolen.
My personal feeling is that it isn't fake, but with what is going on around the back and the polished out serial number I'd be inclined to return it anyway, enough to get the alarm bells ringing.
Serial looks like 04(?)32 to me. Sure could be made out if examined closely.
Looks like 0332.Originally Posted by Kingstepper
What’s going on with the case here?
Unless it is a strange reflection, that looks very iffy to me. Certainly enough to send it back.
Run away while you can.
F.T.F.A.
Yes, could be!
Yes, strange place to have damage. If it was though, sorting may have also erased the serial.
if it feels wrong and you can return - do it
have you tried the QR code ?...interesting to see if it shows anything...
Not keen on that. Id send it back.
I'd have returned that already, a very poor example. Also, I've seen many nicer Monaco's - are you sure this is what you want?
The ex-display story line doesn't stack up. So it got polished presumably because it was scratched. Then it got scratched again? Wrong instruction book? How come the first dealer had to sell it to the second dealer, presumably at a lower price than if the first dealer sold it himself? Even if it's not fake, with this kind of provenance, you would take a huge hit if you ever wanted to move it on.
Writing on caseback looks too good for fake IMO. Damage is enough for rejection as others have suggested. V strange place too.
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I would speculate that the original dealer wanted to remove the watches serial number so they would not be caught out by Tag selling within the grey dealer network. It looks like an amateur attempt to polish away the serial number and to not provide the correct paperwork.
This is what I was thinking. Ages ago I had a Monaco and I'm pretty sure the 'backlash' isn't unusual.
I think the dealer to dealer story lends itself to this scenario too. I'd be sending it back.
The guys on Calibre 11 forum would be your best shout. They may know more on this, but the lagging/ jump seconds is cool on so I’ve read.
Lots of doubt in your mind, and as others said I’ll be sending that back.
More importantly how did it size up/ feel on the wrist. As you had concerns?
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As others have said the Dealer to Dealer story stinks- When you message him about the watch it’ll go something like this ‘ Sorry as it had come from a dealer that I know I didn’t check it properly..........’ and then he’ll offer a refund straight away.
Looks on to me - scruffy though & obvs the paperwork is completely wrong: https://www.calibre11.com/monaco-gra...onaco-carrera/
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It's not the serial number that's been crudely obliterated, but the Ltd Ed number. The serial number is in the correct format, 3 letters and 4 numbers and no attempt has been made to remove it.
Have to agree that the engraving on the back looks spot on, certainly when compared to a known genuine Tag I have.
The picure of damage around the Ltd Ed number looks worse in the pics but is still very obvious.
Chrono24 contacted me and were very reassuring and they're not releasing the funds to the seller.
Now spoken to the seller who seems upset that he may have unwittingly sold a dud. He's going to try and contact Tag with the serial number and see if the number is at least genuine while accepting it doesn't prove authenticity.
No issues with accepting my return though.
While the watch may not be to some's taste - I like it, more so if I felt it was100% the real thing!
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Doesn’t look right and the background storey sounds like just that. A made up tale of mysterious goings on.
I suspect you’ve already decided this anyway but just send it back, get your cash back and keep on looking. Many, many nicer Monacos out there.
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With all the points you have highlighted, irrespective of its originality it is never going to be a keeper. I would return without hesitation.
No idea if fake or not but that watch is knackered. Return it.
Last edited by Justin Case; 26th March 2021 at 19:00.
I can’t comment definitely, but I suspect it isn’t a fake. The damage on it, and intentionally removing the LE number are an absolute no to me, for any watch. I would return it for those reasons.
Dave
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Last edited by helidoc; 26th March 2021 at 20:09.
I know the grand total of F all about Monaco’s but if I were a betting man I would say it’s been nicked and they have tried to put a ‘full set’ together. I think they have tried to polish the ltd Number out to make it ‘difficult’ to trace.
Glad you can get your money back. It’s definitely not worth the hassle. I would google the number as well to see if a hit come up. If it is stolen you might be able to help connect some dots.
Last edited by Sinnlover; 26th March 2021 at 20:09.
* Date wheel print and alignment - does not look right? - looks consistent with other examples of the model for sale.
* should be a sapphire crystal - certainly no AR which I would expect and water 'smears' over it.- if it's not sapphire what is it? They used to have acrylic crystals, I've no idea whether they are interchangeable.
* Setting time - movement hacks, St time to the second, start watch but the minute hands lags by 30 secs. Like backlash in the movement. - this is normal for a modular chronograph,
* Booklet is for a Quartz alarm. - doesn't indicate in itself that the watch is fake, retailers cock up all the time with this sort of thing.
Calibre 11 has some info on the model:
https://www.calibre11.com/monaco-gra...onaco-carrera/
I've not sure from the comments and pictures that it's a fake, just knocked about a bit. If the serial number is illegible, it's best to send it back as there'll alway be doubt as to whether it was deliberately defaced.
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Last edited by AKM; 26th March 2021 at 20:46.
Looks like 532 to me but my eyes aren’t that great?
Yes, several have suggested Calibre 11 is the place to get advice. Just waiting for my account to be approved.
As for size, it's big but not overly so I felt. Used to wearing large watches, PO 45mm, Dreadnoughts etc I'd have no issues wearing it. Just wish I didn't have doubts with it.
That was a useful link, I've done a comparison especially with the movement and I cannot see anything immediately wrong. If it is a fake it looks as though a lot of effort has gone into copying it, pretty faithfully, to my eyes. I'm no expert though.
I've pored over this for hours critically trying to pick faults. Apart from the lagging minute hand which seems a known trait everything else functions as it should. Chrono & second hands reset to zero, date rolls over. After winding the watch through 7 days or so, it sits centrally in the window. The date printing? I'm certain that in one of the pictures, one number is fractionally higher than the other? Seems so in 'the metal'
The dial seems to be spot on, the Tag Huer logo is applied rather than engraved/printed - there isn't anything I can find fault with.
Case back engraving seems perfect...it's this deliberate obliterating of part of Ltd Ed number I don't understand. It disguises nothing with the serial No engraving being clear and intact?
The strap needs changing. It's dry and feels fragile, that I guess would tie in with it being ex-display sitting in a shop window?
Another long talk with the dealer (he contacted me) who seem's genuine. The dealer to dealer bit doesn't sound too far fetched, I don't know. Is it beyond possibility there's trading between dealers?
Return or partial refund being offered and he's going to try and authenticate watch. I'd try to, but can't access a retailer with COVID restrictions but I'll try ringing a couple.
Just miffed and somewhat uncertain if the watch is the real deal or not. Opinion seem's a little divided! I'll see what Calibre11 says. At least my money is safe.
Appreciate your input - regardless of your liking the watch or not :)
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Last edited by jacinabox; 26th March 2021 at 23:26. Reason: format
I’d send that back as soon as I possibly could. The watch has not been looked after, the crystal is chipped in one corner, the caseback has been damaged and fiddled with, the papers are from a different watch, no-one will touch it when you come to sell it, and the seller is a chancer.
Yes, the watch looks in dreadful condition. How was it originally described?
Fake or not. Take the money and run. Get a decent one with no funny business.
There's also the old saying,
"If in doubt, leave it out."
Last edited by Tiny; 27th March 2021 at 12:52.
I think that if you have the option of a refund you would be best taking it. Even if you end up certain that it's authentic, the overpolishing will always mar the watch. There will be others out there. Better the regret of letting it go than the regret of keeping it?
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I'd return that ASAP if it was me. I'd never be happy with the case damage etc unless it had been declared before the purchase, and given the other doubts I'd want rid. There are plenty more straight ones available.
Think about if you ever decide to sell it, would a buyer be happy with it...............
Started out with nothing. Still have most of it left.
The case condition alone is a no no unless it is very cheap (although I doubt it). I think it is the genuine article but simply a horrible example.
As others have said, back it.
You don't want to be the mug at the end of the line.
Cheers,
Neil.
Again, thank you for your replies.
To pick up on a couple of points bring made here,
"The watch is a mess" agreed, but only as far as the case back number butchering. The crystal is a box saphire and stands quite proud of the case. It's most definately not chipped! What appear to be 'chips' is some sort of refraction thing going on.
Apart from the tiniest of hairlines and a small pinprick on top of the case edge it's spotless.
I've followed the advice to post on Calibre11 forum and posted pictures that are a little better than here. Consensus, so far, is that the watch is genuine and if I wanted confirmation it seems I can send it to LVHM for a free check...postage/ insurance costs obviously.
There are no tell-tales that it's a replica...applied logo's are perfect, the movement looks too good to be a dud, it works fine apart from a slight percieved misalignment in the date window and it's running well within spec at +5 spd.
Having spent another few hours giving it an optical bollocking I can't find anything that suggests it's not real.
Another email from the seller this morning asking what I'd like to do, return or ammend selling price.
All very friendly and, to me at least, totally genuine.
He's as puzzled as anyone as to why the butchery was carried on the numbers - it disguises nothing with the serial number being crystal clear, unmolested and obvious.
His selling pictures are taken with a little set-up in the watch repair part of his business and he simply posts the advert.
He's an established business with perfect feedback from the sale of hundreds of watches.
For now I'm taking him at face value.
I'm going to see what more comes from calibre11 and make a decision.
I keep saying it, I like it. A lot. It's different with the orange high lights from the more common offerings.
My money is secure and I have another 12/13 days to decide.
I'm in the middle of heart & head tug of war just now and I have a few days to consider. If the cost to me can be adjusted to allow for the case back mess, I may well keep it.
Resale value is not a consideration and I have no intention of flipping it. If I did the issue would be disclosed and if I took a hit it wouldn't be the first time...happens every time!
Colour me stupid?!
Really do appreciate all your thoughts, even if you think I'm daft :)
.
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Shocked you’d even consider keeping it tbh. Too many things wrong with it
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Absolutely insane if you keep it.
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Problem with opinion on here is that it’s not a universally popular watch and too many people on here think you should never lose money on a watch purchase. If the watch is genuine, you like it and the price is ok then you are definitely right to keep it. Sod resale...if you are going to enjoy wearing it then why not “spend” the money you’ll lose on a watch.
Just looks like a second hand watch to me, with a bunch of snowflakes commentating on it, Rolex serials numbers are worn on older watches so what’s the big deal
They don't get worn in a safe.
It's alright. I shock myself at times with how my thought process is working. I'll fathom it out!
And what's wrong with it apart from case back numbering? The strap is probably in need of a change, but straps are consumable.
I'm heartened to see a couple of responses ( Christian & Hooshabak) that are warming to my pragmatic 'I might just keep it' view if it's pukka. I'll see what can be worked out with the seller.
None of the replies on Calibre11 suggests to get rid soonest.
For sure the pictures I posted earlier are not the best, especially the case back butchery. They've made it look worse than it actually is. These a little better?
Not sure I would call the watch a 'mess' My poor photography, yes. The watch, hmm can't agree with that!
I will update when I've made the right (or wrong) decision :)
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I'm not sure theres actually any nefarious reason that number has been polished. The way the edge has gone, it looks like someone has done something previously to the case that happens to be in that area...maybe just a bad attempt to polish out a previous scratch?
None of it looks as horrendous as others are making out. Maybe its because a lot of people are used to safe queens? It's not massively expensive to get cases finished like new...look at something like this as an example...
https://swisstimeservices.co.uk/2019...refurbishment/
Fair enough on that point - you can see from your 3rd photo in the first post why I thought it was chipped at the top right corner. Your side-on photo in a later post shows it is not so.
All depends what you paid for it. It's a LE but not impossible to find, so if it was priced as new then I don't see why you wouldn't return it and get a replacement.
If it was a real bargain then that's different.
It can’t ever to be made to look like new as it’s already been over polished.
OP a question to ask yourself is... if you had known then what you know now, would you have proceeded with the purchase or would you have waited for a better example to be available?
Regarding never selling it, you may not want to but one day you may need to.
Cheers
Rory
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I seem to recall the one I saw had a printed TAG and Monaco rather than an applied badge.
'Real Bargain' That'll be very subjective to many. The watch was released in 2012 with a selling price of around £4.6k - I know you can get dealer discounts! I haven't paid anywhere near that and barring the damage on the back, it's not far of new. I've seen worse when trying on big name brands in the High St...Oh, we can polish that out if you want it Sir...
They're not easy to find, there were only 1200. One sold on eBay for close £2.7k and it was a real mess. The only other one I can currently find is in Italy, shows signs of use with the wrong strap and that's £3675 + £30 postage + UK VAT + whatever the courier charges; nudging £4.5K. I'm very much below that.
The honest answer Rory; no, I don't think I would've. But here I am and it's in my possesion for now - I've bought it to enjoy and not to realise any investment potential. Is it such a big deal from that POV? I'm trying to move on from being too precious with my watches
Again, your're right, it can't be returned to as new. But it's not as if the face or visible parts when worn will be seen. On the wrist no one would know. As perhaps can be seen from my pictures, it's not a gnats whisker from looking new. Having said that, if I keep it, I'll probably whack it off a door frame and put my own marks on it!
Selling on? Will I take a hit? I'm not wanting to give a smug answer; I'm fortunate. I'm done with working, I owe nothing, secure in everything I need to be and I don't see a situation arising where I'd need to. If I did, I'll take the hit (as I do with all my watch sales!)
Not printed. It's as it should be and confirmed by those who know more than me. The rest of the CAL12 range do have have printed logo's
So where am I? Just waiting to see what can be done with dealer tomorrow. If he's willing to take a modest amount off his selling price, I'll more than likely keep it - still too and fro'ing!
I'm convinced, as are others with experience of Monaco's, it's authentic. Sure it has issue's but I've got a v.good and not inflated price on it, IMO it's aesthetically more pleasing than other Monaco's, 12 months warranty, Chrono24 authenticity warranty (albeit for 14 days only) and the fall-back of getting CC company involved in the remote event it's hooky. I'm pretty comfortable now.
Still willing to be coloured stupid though!
Genuinely do appreciate all your comments, it's all been thrown into the brain mush that's gone on in the last few days :)
Rory - honest question...you might know more than me on this...why can't this one ever be made to look like new when you can do something like this on a totally overpolished case (not even expensive at £108)
https://forum.tz-uk.com/showthread.p...-back-from-STS
OP - to me you seem to have a pretty reasonable argument to keep it. It sounds like the price is acceptable to you, you aren't after a safe queen that you store away and you aren't trying to invest in something for financial gain. It sounds like you've done your market research in that you can't find anything that matches it and, if you return it, you'd be potentially waiting a long time before something else came up. I can certainly understand why you are thinking about keeping it. I've had the same thought process on watches before..ultimately I did flip and lose money but I don't care because spending a couple of hundred to enjoy a watch for a bit was fine by me.
The end!
While I still had time to make a decision on what to do with the watch I ferreted out as much information as I could. A good chunk of help from Calibre11 forum with no doubts expresssed that it was a copy or fake.
The final confirmation came from a local used watch dealer who I called and asked if he could cast his eye over it. He's seen a few fake Tags, and from other brands too. No doubt in his mind it's authentic. Good enough for me.
Meanwhile, with a little good natured and friendly to and fro'ing with the seller, we agreed a modest reduction to allow for the partial removal of the Ltd Ed number.
At the same time as I had posted this thread I alerted Chrono24 to my concerns, they were perfect in their response. After some email exchange's with them I advised them I wanted seek a reduction in the buying price and they were fully supportive, re-assuring and would mediate if required.
So, the watch has found a new owner in me, I'm more than happy and in terms of it being a "bargain" In comparison with what has been sold and the one Ltd Ed currently on sale, I'm quids in. Leaving out the Ltd Ed bit, I'm still significantly up on buying a standard used Monaco. I'm a happy chappy with a watch that's a ltttle bit different to the more main stream offerings.
I genuinely appreciate all of you who chipped in, regardless of your advice! If anyone has doubts on using Chrono24, if there are any issues percieved or otherwise, they acted superbly...I'd buy via their platform again :)
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