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Thread: Potentially issued CWC.

  1. #1
    Master senraw's Avatar
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    Potentially issued CWC.

    Hello everyone,

    I recently picked up this CWC SBS Diver's watch from a serving gentleman in Exmouth.

    He purchased it from a colleague who is a Royal Marine, but I'm unsure if it is an issued peice or a watch that he had brought himself via Silvermans.

    (It only has a 60 click bezel, which is apparently very odd for a MK2.)

    It has been suggested on MWR forum that I call Silverman's, they should be able to tell by the serial of it is either an issued or civilian watch.

    Any thoughts, comments and suggestions would be greatly appreciated. :)

  2. #2
    Master Sinnlover's Avatar
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    As suggested on MWR
    Call silvermans ask for Mel, he should be able to help you.
    Silvermans have fully embraced the customer service support model. If they can help you they will.
    (No connection just a happy customer)

  3. #3
    Master senraw's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sinnlover View Post
    As suggested on MWR
    Call silvermans ask for Mel, he should be able to help you.
    Silvermans have fully embraced the customer service support model. If they can help you they will.
    (No connection just a happy customer)
    Will do first thing. Thank you. :)

  4. #4
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    If you've got Instagram you can message them in their they normally reply pretty quick

    Great pick up btw issued or not great watch 👍🏻

  5. #5
    Master senraw's Avatar
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    Called Silvermans today and left them with the issue number to check out.

    Theu just called me back to confirm that this was is infact issued to the military in 2019.

    Unfortunately, she couldn't give out anymore information though.
    Last edited by senraw; 11th March 2021 at 12:55.

  6. #6
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    Result.
    Dependant on what you paid it could be worth a bit more now!

  7. #7
    Master senraw's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sinnlover View Post
    Result.
    Dependant on what you paid it could be worth a bit more now!
    Quite possibly,

    But I have absolutely no idea what these more modern Luminova variants go for.

    Any information would be greatly appreciated. :)
    Last edited by senraw; 11th March 2021 at 22:27.

  8. #8
    Master Sinnlover's Avatar
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    Its a difficult one.
    lots of these 2019 watches are falling out of the woodwork at the moment
    I would say between £700-£1000 but I could be wrong. I collect CWC divers and would not be paying more for one of these.

  9. #9
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    Email from Silvermans:
    Last edited by senraw; 11th March 2021 at 14:39.

  10. #10
    Grand Master Chris_in_the_UK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sinnlover View Post
    Its a difficult one.
    lots of these 2019 watches are falling out of the woodwork at the moment
    I would say between £700-£1000 but I could be wrong. I collect CWC divers and would not be paying more for one of these.
    The late ones (which this one is) and 'L' dial are not fetching the prices of the early 'T' dial ones TBH.

    There are added subtleties such as the issue year (Falklands War as an example).
    When you look long into an abyss, the abyss looks long into you.........

  11. #11
    Master senraw's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris_in_the_UK View Post
    The late ones (which this one is) and 'L' dial are not fetching the prices of the early 'T' dial ones TBH.

    There are added subtleties such as the issue year (Falklands War as an example).
    Thank you Chris.

    I certainly prefer the T dials over the L's.

    I'd actually be more than happy to trade this issued watch for a non issued (no date) RN diver with a Tritium marked dial if anyone is interested.

  12. #12
    Master Sinnlover's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris_in_the_UK View Post
    The late ones (which this one is) and 'L' dial are not fetching the prices of the early 'T' dial ones TBH.

    There are added subtleties such as the issue year (Falklands War as an example).
    Yep hence my low(ish) estimate
    Civi ones are going for £600-£700. This being a recent issue watch will go for more but not much more
    E.g a good issued 94 /96 watch is pushing £2k now. Early 80s watches are £5k + lots more for 80/81 autos.
    Karl kindly offered this to me last night but I explained my reasonings for not taking it.
    If you want an issued CWC these 19 watches offer best value.
    Last edited by Sinnlover; 12th March 2021 at 07:35.

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    I asked CWC about 4 SBS serial numbers that were listed in eBay they said they were all issued but did day this

    "but saying that , the fact that issued sbs are finding their way onto ebay and the like, they are being stolen, we think"

    I've since seen a lot of similar numbers on eBay going for £495 or around that

  14. #14
    Master Sinnlover's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by neilF183 View Post
    I asked CWC about 4 SBS serial numbers that were listed in eBay they said they were all issued but did day this

    "but saying that , the fact that issued sbs are finding their way onto ebay and the like, they are being stolen, we think"

    I've since seen a lot of similar numbers on eBay going for £495 or around that
    I have no proof but is suspect this is the case.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sinnlover View Post
    I have no proof but is suspect this is the case.
    I'd like to pick on up but not sure if it possible being stolen from the MOD would be an issue

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by neilF183 View Post
    I'd like to pick on up but not sure if it possible being stolen from the MOD would be an issue
    Its one of the reasons I have not bought one. You could say the majority of issued watches are liberated, lost or stolen The Military Police visit the known dealers to double check every now and again. These are just too new and some are cases un worn, so I think there may be an issue down the line.
    As I say they are no longer SBS issue, anyone can request one if they have the need, they have been seen on Army and Navy wrists, from infantry units, combat divers to sailors. They are no longer the sole preserve of the SBS, the stainless cased watches are no longer issue bits of kit, only the PVD cases.

  17. #17
    Master senraw's Avatar
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    This is all very interesting stuff, thank you for all your thoughts and added information. :)

    I'm still yet to hear back from the gentleman i brought it off, whatever reply I get, (if I get one) will be shared on this link.




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  18. #18
    This thread prompted me to ask cwc about the sbs I’ve been enjoying for a last couple of months.

    Sapphire, luminova and 120 click bezel and they confirmed is an issued watch and shouldn’t be in circulation

    Must be a quartermaster missing some somewhere

  19. #19
    Master senraw's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by acg View Post
    This thread prompted me to ask cwc about the sbs I’ve been enjoying for a last couple of months.

    Sapphire, luminova and 120 click bezel and they confirmed is an issued watch and shouldn’t be in circulation

    Must be a quartermaster missing some somewhere
    Great news! :)

    I was informed on MWR that the SBS watches are supplied to the MOD by a 'middle man' in the form of Carwood Motor Services.. Sound a little dodgy to me... :D

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by senraw View Post
    Great news! :)

    I was informed on MWR that the SBS watches are supplied to the MOD by a 'middle man' in the form of Carwood Motor Services.. Sound a little dodgy to me... :D
    You would be surprised who supplies the MOD...

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sinnlover View Post
    You would be surprised who supplies the MOD...
    Please enlighten us! :)

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by senraw View Post
    Please enlighten us! :)
    Ha! It’s not that interesting!
    Essentially any one can! They are quite easy to find on line, but there are some surprising firms listed
    Eddie has several watches with UK NATO Stock Numbers (NSN) these can be purchased and used by the MOD or purchased by units if they wanted. The PRS18 could be the next issued watch if Eddie was prepared to sell them cheap enough.
    I presume Silvermans partner with Carwoods as they already have a contract to supply equipment (vehicle air conditioning and turbo parts mainly) this makes it easier to get the watches in the system.
    Any company with an existing contract can pitch to supply required kit.
    To be honest my experience of the MOD / HM Gov procurement process is that it’s far from robust and they constantly go the route of least resistance. You don’t have to be an expert or specialist to supply specialist bits of kit.

  23. #23
    Should have added mine was like new. Still is actually

  24. #24
    Master senraw's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sinnlover View Post
    Ha! It’s not that interesting!
    Essentially any one can! They are quite easy to find on line, but there are some surprising firms listed
    Eddie has several watches with UK NATO Stock Numbers (NSN) these can be purchased and used by the MOD or purchased by units if they wanted. The PRS18 could be the next issued watch if Eddie was prepared to sell them cheap enough.
    I presume Silvermans partner with Carwoods as they already have a contract to supply equipment (vehicle air conditioning and turbo parts mainly) this makes it easier to get the watches in the system.
    Any company with an existing contract can pitch to supply required kit.
    To be honest my experience of the MOD / HM Gov procurement process is that it’s far from robust and they constantly go the route of least resistance. You don’t have to be an expert or specialist to supply specialist bits of kit.
    Thank you, that's fascinating, I would of thought it would of been the complete opposite tbh.

    Eddie really should remake the PRS-18Q and military really should issue it.. That would be fantastic!

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  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sinnlover View Post
    Ha! It’s not that interesting!
    Essentially any one can! They are quite easy to find on line, but there are some surprising firms listed
    Eddie has several watches with UK NATO Stock Numbers (NSN) these can be purchased and used by the MOD or purchased by units if they wanted. The PRS18 could be the next issued watch if Eddie was prepared to sell them cheap enough.
    I presume Silvermans partner with Carwoods as they already have a contract to supply equipment (vehicle air conditioning and turbo parts mainly) this makes it easier to get the watches in the system.
    Any company with an existing contract can pitch to supply required kit.
    To be honest my experience of the MOD / HM Gov procurement process is that it’s far from robust and they constantly go the route of least resistance. You don’t have to be an expert or specialist to supply specialist bits of kit.
    I'd go a bit further ... having an NSN means almost nothing, bins, pencils and toilet paper have NSNs.
    It also doesn't follow that units can buy something because it has an NSN. That's simply not how budgets/procurement works. The procurers (essentially, read civil servants at Abbeywood) will put in contracts with suppliers for stuff for which there's a perceived requirement. Sometimes that will be preceded by trials, depending on what we're talking about, but then the contractually procured items sit in inventory - and can then be demanded by units eligible for those items.
    If that contractual step hasn't taken place, and the item not been brought into inventory, the item can't be demanded - regardless of having an NSN.
    NSNs imply absolutely nothing about quality, or testing, or endorsement. Zero, zip, nada.
    The one tiny exception to the procurement chain that may be relevant to this is that SF do have one or two shortcut routes to buy kit they want without going through the Abbeywood speed-bump. That said.. I'm struck by the peculiarity of the wording 'purchased for the military' .... the word 'for' jars a bit.

    And all this reminds me of the bizarre premium people put on ex-MOD landrovers; likely to be the most hard-smashed and abused LRs on the market, but somehow held to be 'better' by non-mil.
    Last edited by Brauner Hund; 13th March 2021 at 10:20.

  26. #26
    Grand Master Chris_in_the_UK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brauner Hund View Post

    And all this reminds me of the bizarre premium people put on ex-MOD landrovers; likely to be the most hard-smashed and abused LRs on the market, but somehow held to be 'better' by non-mil.
    There is no real premium on ex-MOD Land Rovers, but they are often maintained to a decent standard, particularly if you consider the Tithonus project ones.
    When you look long into an abyss, the abyss looks long into you.........

  27. #27

    Question Issued SBS

    Hello from France,

    I asked Rachel at CWC 2 weeks ago about the potential issuing of a 2015 CWC SBS but she told me there is a police investigation about SBS CWC and she cannot answer me...

    "Dear Laurent,

    Thank you for your email. I am unable to confirm if this watch has been issued or not. I understand that there is an ongoing investigation by the Military Police regarding issued watches coming up for sale privately, so we no longer comment on whether or not a watch has been previously issued.

    Kind regards,

    Rachel "

  28. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Laurent B View Post
    Hello from France,

    I asked Rachel at CWC 2 weeks ago about the potential issuing of a 2015 CWC SBS but she told me there is a police investigation about SBS CWC and she cannot answer me...

    "Dear Laurent,

    Thank you for your email. I am unable to confirm if this watch has been issued or not. I understand that there is an ongoing investigation by the Military Police regarding issued watches coming up for sale privately, so we no longer comment on whether or not a watch has been previously issued.

    Kind regards,

    Rachel "
    Yep the RMP are looking in to the large number of recent issue watches that have found their way in to the collectors market
    I would not be buying an L dialled CWC diver at the moment unless from Silvermans

  29. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sinnlover View Post
    Yep the RMP are looking in to the large number of recent issue watches that have found their way in to the collectors market
    I would not be buying an L dialled CWC diver at the moment unless from Silvermans
    Social media myth on RMP/CWC morphing into internet ‘fact’?

    I don’t know, but I’m not sure how anyone outside RMP (we should actually be saying SIB in this context, so there’s one potential myth indicator ) would know, unless they’ve been questioned?

    There’s an internal myth that SIB track eBay - for ‘flagged’ items of value, but I find it difficult to imagine how they would generate the man hours. And, frankly, SIB staff are pretty widely considered to be, professionally, not the sharpest knives in the drawer.

    And, around that, I’d challenge almost anyone with an ‘issued’ watch to come up with the disposal papers.


    … just a thought :)

    [edit to add: if anyone has an L dial diver they’re no longer comfy with- I’m happy to take it off their hands for a small admin fee. :D ]
    Last edited by Brauner Hund; 26th May 2021 at 16:55.

  30. #30
    Master Sinnlover's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brauner Hund View Post
    Social media myth on RMP/CWC morphing into internet ‘fact’?

    I don’t know, but I’m not sure how anyone outside RMP (we should actually be saying SIB in this context, so there’s one potential myth indicator ) would know, unless they’ve been questioned?

    There’s an internal myth that SIB track eBay - for ‘flagged’ items of value, but I find it difficult to imagine how they would generate the man hours. And, frankly, SIB staff are pretty widely considered to be, professionally, not the sharpest knives in the drawer.

    And, around that, I’d challenge almost anyone with an ‘issued’ watch to come up with the disposal papers.


    … just a thought :)

    [edit to add: if anyone has an L dial diver they’re no longer comfy with- I’m happy to take it off their hands for a small admin fee. :D ]
    It has been raised by a few sources and where there is smoke there tends to be fire.
    Either way there are lots of new watches coming on to the market, CWC will not verify anymore so that’s enough for me to stay away from them.

  31. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sinnlover View Post
    It has been raised by a few sources and where there is smoke there tends to be fire.
    Either way there are lots of new watches coming on to the market, CWC will not verify anymore so that’s enough for me to stay away from them.
    True. But my sceptic head would measure that against the CWC-price-bitterness that often pops up on this site (not you!) and this rumour being an effective spoiler/price limiter.

  32. #32

    Question

    I know that a batch of 2020 CWC divers (auto & quartz) were stolen on Heathrow airport a while ago but since mine is from 2015 there should not be any problem ?

  33. #33
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    No offence intended but that's quite a conspiracy theory. There has been concerns on other forums too for quite a long time about unused, apparently issued watches leaking out of the military (stores?). I saw queries and worries raised on MWR long before it was mentioned here.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brauner Hund View Post
    True. But my sceptic head would measure that against the CWC-price-bitterness that often pops up on this site (not you!) and this rumour being an effective spoiler/price limiter.

  34. #34
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    I was under the impression it was just Auto’s that were stolen last year?


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  35. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by size11s View Post
    No offence intended but that's quite a conspiracy theory. There has been concerns on other forums too for quite a long time about unused, apparently issued watches leaking out of the military (stores?). I saw queries and worries raised on MWR long before it was mentioned here.
    😂
    None taken! 😊

    I’ve 3 decades in the game, and I read so much online pish on mil stores issues/receipts/disposals etc that I am rather circumspect, and I do wonder how much of the ‘multiple sources’ is one person speculating once, and the social media echo-chamber running away with it round-and-round until it’s a ‘fact’ whose single source origins are lost.

    The reality for lots of this is a Forces psyche that ‘one man’s loss is another man’s buckshee’; which is wrong, but that’s the psyche.

    As earlier, if anyone who has an ‘issue’ CWC, would care to start a thread getting people to post a pic of it, next to the disposal paperwork, proving it came to market by legitimate means, we would have an extremely short thread - and that’s why this is an odd area.

  36. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brauner Hund View Post

    None taken! 

    I’ve 3 decades in the game, and I read so much online pish on mil stores issues/receipts/disposals etc that I am rather circumspect, and I do wonder how much of the ‘multiple sources’ is one person speculating once, and the social media echo-chamber running away with it round-and-round until it’s a ‘fact’ whose single source origins are lost.

    The reality for lots of this is a Forces psyche that ‘one man’s loss is another man’s buckshee’; which is wrong, but that’s the psyche.

    As earlier, if anyone who has an ‘issue’ CWC, would care to start a thread getting people to post a pic of it, next to the disposal paperwork, proving it came to market by legitimate means, we would have an extremely short thread - and that’s why this is an odd area.
    I think I agree with pretty much all of that . Certainly the echo chamber effect giving false realities is as prevalent in the watch collecting world as anywhere else. I am with Sinnlover and wouldn't have a recent one for many reasons, of which dubious facilitations would be one. I do have a '95 issue diver though....

  37. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by size11s View Post
    I think I agree with pretty much all of that . Certainly the echo chamber effect giving false realities is as prevalent in the watch collecting world as anywhere else. I am with Sinnlover and wouldn't have a recent one for many reasons, of which dubious facilitations would be one. I do have a '95 issue diver though....
    👍

    I suppose, underlining how misunderstood issues/receipts are by the non-mil, I do have a small smile whenever I read of someone with an ‘issued’ watch describing their watch’s value-add provenance as being a note on the watch’s history written by the serviceman who sold it to them…. that’s a 100% indicator that the watch has been misappropriated, either flat-out stolen or through misuse of the write-off process.

  38. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brauner Hund View Post


    I suppose, underlining how misunderstood issues/receipts are by the non-mil, I do have a small smile whenever I read of someone with an ‘issued’ watch describing their watch’s value-add provenance as being a note on the watch’s history written by the serviceman who sold it to them…. that’s a 100% indicator that the watch has been misappropriated, either flat-out stolen or through misuse of the write-off process.
    I worked in the MoD for 34 years and was responsible for paying the contractors claims, so probably paid most of those CWC MoD Form 640s back in the day and for a few years was a travelling auditor with the Equipment Account Centre that took us to contractors sites as well as MoD depots carrying out audits and stock taking checks, so I for one know most of the tricks in the book.

    We have said many times on here that issued means no more than delivered to a MoD establishment and unless there is a back story to accompany the watch then it's history remains unclear. We also need to factor in that for years CWC didn't sell to Joe public, so up until that point everything they made and sold is technically 'issued'.

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