Reply With QuoteHave you got pictures? I’d be very interested to see the new watch case and original parts
Hi all, I have been extrusted with my father-in-law's watches for safe keeping and am after a bit of advice about what to do with a pre-moon Speedmaster (105.003 Ed White) that has been refurbished by Omega in 2015 to the point that it is no longer the same watch!
The refurbishment was carried out through an insurance claim because he had given the watch a bit of a whack (he now no longer wears it!), so he didn't have a lot of control about what Omega actually did, it seems. The watch came back with a brand new case, new bracelet, new face and hands, so it effectively looks like the latest model Speedmaster Professional, rather than a 1967 vintage watch. They did at least have the face to return most of the original parts, although sadly not the case itself, nor the chronograph hand. The original face has a lot of patina, although it has lost most of the hour markings, so I suppose that I can see why they might have felt that it needed changing. Trouble is, the original doesn't have 'Professional' on it, but the new one that they fitted does, so there is no way that this is authentic to the original movement that is fitted.
The question now is, do I look to have the original face and hands refitted, or will this just look odd with the new case? Could they be refurbished to at least be more presentable, but at least original to the watch?
I also have the original bracelet for the watch, which is marked as a 1035/1501, and appears to be very rare. It has a couple of stretched links, making it unusable at the moment, but is it possible to have this repaired?
Finally, is it worth getting the Omega Archive details for the watch, to help confirm it's authenticity? I have the repair card for the refurbishment, but would like to have more evidence of it's providence, given that it looks wrong for it's age, even though the movement is period correct. When does a watch stop being authentic, if it's had so much work done to it? Presumably the movement is the most important thing, but obviously not easily visible!
Any advice gratefully received.
Thanks, Phil
PS. His other watch is a Rolex 'Pepsi' 1675/0 from 1979. Do Rolex do something similar to the Omega Archive, if I wanted to get this authenticated (thankfully this is all original!)
Have you got pictures? I’d be very interested to see the new watch case and original parts
Here you go...
Phil
It's a tragedy what has been done (by Omega) to your father-in-law's Speedmaster. In my opinion, without the original case I think you have to accept what it now is. Whilst it may be that for sentimental reasons you want to refit dial, hands etc. it won't add to the value. I'd be tempted to have a discussion with Simon Freese, THE go-to-guy for vintage Speedmaster servicing in the UK (and farther afield) to discuss options.
Last edited by Skier; 21st February 2021 at 23:14.
Hi, they’re really bad but I can see the new case isn’t straight lugs.
On the face of it the old dial looks ok, but hard to tell from photos.
Is the original bezel there? If so dial and bezel might be worth circa 4-5k, I’m sure someone with more knowledge will advise. Old bracelet 2-3k
Watch with original 321 movement, hard to value, maybe 4-5k. Maybe 6k, but without the case it’s not really an Ed White anymore.
Thanks for the advice. Really annoying that Omega have effectively ruined this lovely original watch! I wonder whether there is any comeback on them, as I have the repair reference number from them, so presumably they could look into exactly what was done, and why?
Thanks for the tip to contact Simon Freese, I will give him a shout and see what he suggests.
Phil
They’d just argue the case was damaged, and to be fair it must have been. Not much use for a damaged case.
What you have got is a great watch with a wonderful movement (assume it’s the original 321) and some pricey spare parts.
I wouldn’t worry too much, can’t change it now.
Originally Posted by Highwayman
I cannot really help, however I used Simon to service my Mk1 Ploprof (excellent job), however in regard to your Rolex question, alas Rolex do not offer such a service. A call to Rolex Service centre might, however get you some information about when, and if, it was last serviced by them.
Whoever does not know how to hit the nail on the head should be asked not to hit it at all.
Friedrich Nietzsche
I would get a extract from Omega as it would help to show the history , but you may have trouble as your case reference will not be matched to the movement , this may cause the museum a problem when trying to locate the importer details ECT. It's a shame this has happened and there is nothing you can really do .
I can’t imagine so as by the sounds of it the service would have been driven by your father and insurance company. Ultimately they approved the work. If a new case was required that must have been a hefty whack! However, it is a shame.
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Sorry to hear about this. As others have said, it appears that little can be done now. But there is a good lesson here for all of us. Don't send your vintage watches back to Omega or Rolex. Simon F has looked after my vintage Omega watches and is highly recommended.
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Strange. Omega have several modern straight lug case designs to choose from so I can’t see their logic in converting this into a Pro. The only thing I can think of is if movement was swapped at some point in its early life and they did the conversion based on the movement number. Servicing could be rather haphazard back when these were just tool watches. I would have expected that you got back something more like a FOIS than this if the records showed that the movement was from an Ed White. Maybe an extract will solve it.
Last edited by Padders; 22nd February 2021 at 11:43.
I think that’s a little unfair on Omega and Rolex. Lets face it, this watch was knackered and it must’ve been badly damaged to warrant a case replacement. we don’t know what communication took place between the owner and Omega Service Centre, the owner ended up with a virtually new Speedy pro for free because tge insurance paid, possibly he was v. pleased with that outcome.
Ed White or not, a knackered watch is a knackered watch and to my eyes it holds no appeal.
Although there doesn't seem to be much communication between client and brand regarding decisions that may or may not be taken with a specific watch. From what I've heard, even if you put your express will in writing to these brands, at the point where the watch is handed over decisions regarding what is and is not done are taken out of your hands. That's a big negative for me.
Yep, you'll probably waste 120 CHF trying to get an archive, you have to take photos of the front and back of the watch when you order an extract and, assuming the movement is original, it's serial won't match the expected 105.003 case and they'll refuse to refund you the costs (unless they can't actually locate any original archived info). Just experienced this myself with an old SM300 which I suspect has had a movement swap out from another model in the past.
I disagree with the sentiment that you effectively have a new watch for free, whilst technically true, the fundamental originality has been destroyed. Omega are one of the better brands at acknowledging their heritage and the importance that originality plays in honouring this but they've totally screwed this up IMO. With that being said, if it was my watch, the original dial in a replacement straight lugs case would have lessened the impact a little but its a moot point.
Thanks for all of the comments, and particularly the advice about the potential problem with requesting an archive extract on the watch. I guess that one option would be for me to have the case back taken off (by a dealer of recognised watch servicer) and at least get a photo of the movement to confirm that it is an original Caliber 321 (which is what the Omega service card says) from an 'Ed White'?
Sadly, my father-in-law was gutted when he got the watch back, as he had no say about what they did, and probably wouldn't have had the work done if he'd known what they were going to do to it. He actually felt that someone at Omega had probably pocketed the case, given it's age and rarity, but then he's a bit of a glass half empty kind of 86 year old!
Phil
Thanks Andy. I do actually have the paperwork from the last service for the Rolex, so it doesn't sound like I have much to gain from contacting them.
Phil
You can't tell what watch the movement came from by looking at it. The 321 was used in the EW, the Pro and also Seamaster Chrono models throughout the 1960s. The serial numbers overlap, especially between EW and Pro.
Who exactly did the work? It is my understanding that 321 pieces are Bienne repair only now so if it was done elsewhere it may not have been an in house factory facility but an authorised third party with a parts account.
Last edited by Padders; 22nd February 2021 at 22:43.
That could explain it as I find it hard to believe it would come back from either Bienne or Southampton like that. They've fitted a Professional dial when Omega still make non pro service dials ffs.
Do Omega make a pre-moon service case? Maybe someone on here with a parts account could check...
The FOIS has straight lugs, even that's more reminiscent of the Ed White than the service case they used..
The Trilogy Speedy and New Ed White/321B Speedmaster case are closer still, indeed the latter is based on the -64 EW case which is why in my earlier post I noted they had straight lug case options and wondered whether the serial on the movement may be why they chose to rebuild it as a Pro. If you send them a watch without any specific instructions, they go off what the archive records for the movement serial and rebuild it to that spec. If you specifically ask for a conversion they may oblige but in the absence of instructions they decide what to do. All assuming of course it was Bienne or Southampton who did the work, who knows what a third party would do if an insurance company had the whip hand.
I agree with the logic - best to get access to the movement to check whether there is a 321 or something more recent, and to go from there.
If it has a 321 then you can source original parts such as case, although it won't be a cheap exercise...or leave the watch s it is and sell the dial.
Sending it to Simon is a good idea as he will be able to advise on what you've got and where you could go with it.
I wondered about using a FOIS case but maybe it wasn't considered due to the sapphire crystal.
The trilogy case with hesalite would be a better option but wasn't available in 2015 when the work was done, and is the bezel interchangeable?
Omega still make pre moon case backs and dials so it's not a stretch to expect they'd be making the cases as well.
A good point. I had rather overlooked how long ago the work was done, ignore my ramblings about other cases, those weren't around when this was done so are irrelevant really.
Thanks again for all of the comments. I have the Omega repair card with the watch, which includes the movement serial number (confirming that it is from 1967). It also has a repair number on the card, so does this suggest that it was Bienne or Southampton who repaired it? If so, do you think that if I contacted Omega they would be willing and able to investigate the repair details on their system?
Phil
Assuming that you intend to keep the watch rather than sell it, this is my suggestion. From the initial post I see that you have the original dial, hands and bracelet, together with the original movement currently inside the new case. In your position I would be on the lookout for a correct period case, even if you could only get the mid case in the first instance. If I could secure a correct mid case I would have it reassembled with the original dial, hands & bracelet, even if this meant having a suitably used/worn current type bezel and a service Pre-Moon caseback. The advantage you have is that all the various series of bezels and casebacks are interchangeable so can be corrected as/when/if better alternatives become obtainable. A scruffy modern bezel will be worth/cost very little and won't look out of place. Indeed, if I was going to keep it and wear it, while continuing the search for the correct DON bezel, I would even try one of the apparently very good replica DON bezel inserts as a stop gap.
Getting a correct mid case should be do-able - I've seen a couple for sale in the past few months. A decent DON bezel will be expensive (though less than a year or two ago) but there's always a few on the market at any point in time. The correct caseback will likely be the most difficult, but the least important when it's on your arm. Selling the as-new case, dial, hands and 1171 bracelet will raise a fair bit towards what you need to at least get the mid case.
Edit: Quick eBay search - the same seller has 2 cases and 2 casebacks.
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Original-...kAAOSwoNdf9U3O
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Original-...0AAOSwX7df9U5z
Last edited by TomGW; 24th February 2021 at 01:35.
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