Chronext is not a business I would deal with, mainly for the reason that they only give you very low bids and try to lure you towards their commission sales. I have not heard from many happy clients who gave them watches for sale, usually rather long time to sale (they are incentivised for maximum price rather than quick sale), they often linger for months. And if and when sold, you'll wait another couple of weeks for the money. They treat their clients as a source of cheap finance by withholding payments for weeks.
In this particular case I would be worried about VAT - not if the watch is returned (as has been correctly stated by some), but if the watch is sold. A sale from a UK owner to a German buyer should be triggering VAT according to my interpretation. I would make sure you understand what your net payout is under these circumstances, as there is no reclaim for you.
Agree, proper nightmare and threads like this are important for other members to understand what kind of business Chronext is.
I sold them a watch last year as direct sales. I did get the money from them but it did take two to three weeks each time and several emails.
I would not do a commission sale nor would I deal with them due to vat etc.
I have found watchmaster much easier to deal with.
As always, when in a transaction one buys the seller and the other party buys the buyer. In this case one could argue they are one and the same, but the "if there is a doubt, there is no doubt" rule would apply in full for me.
Nothing to do with an emotional response. Unless you really NEED that sale, I'd take my chances with selling the watch to someone else and ask for it back immediately.
'Against stupidity, the gods themselves struggle in vain' - Schiller.
I’ve never used them but sounds like a nightmare. I sold my BB41 to WatchFinder last year, first time I’ve used them and have to say it was very straightforward. Admittedly the price was a chunk less than I could’ve got if I’d sold via eBay for example, but by the time I’d paid their commission and the PayPal handling fees I wasn’t that much worse off and didn’t have to worry about the hassle of dealing with random buyers, putting the watch in the post etc which, on balance, sat better with me so I took the hit. I can see why people use these services like this things like We Buy Any Car etc.
Heard it for first time. Borrowed for future use:-)Originally Posted by Saint-Just
Let’s hope that they change their business model and behaviour - would be a better outcome
A few years ago, I had a good experience buying from Chronext and would do so again. They were pretty accurate with their quoted lead time and I certainly had no complaints. Selling to them seems to be a different ball game and after reading this, I would not do so.
The two times I've sold to the trade were both fairly recently (within the last 12-months) to Watchfinder for watches that wouldn't sell on SC and I wouldn't hesitate to do so again if their initial estimates were acceptable. Both times their offer came in right in the middle of their initial estimate range and the selling process was hassle free. Having read the posts of other TZers about WF, I think this is a fairly consistent experience.
Late last year I posted in praise of their customer services. I bought a supposedly unworn Chopard LUC Time Traveler One in their Black Friday sale at the end of November which arrived with a stuck rotor. Communications were originally very difficult with Germany but, thankfully, Amer from the London office got involved and arranged for the return for repair and made sure the watch was back to me in time for Christmas.
The watch was quickly repaired and returned in time for Christmas so I thought all was well. It was only when I started to wear the watch that I noticed another fault, several times a day the hour and minute hands would stop although the second hand would continue to turn, something I’m reliably informed is due to inadequate lubrication and poor quality control at the Chopard manufacture. Chronext claim that all watches sold are thoroughly inspected by qualified watchmakers, yet this same watch was sent out twice with two different faults so had obviously not been checked at all.
Now the fun really starts. I reported the issue to Chronext during the first week of January with no response. I then copied in Amer but he was on annual leave until the middle of January, still no response from Germany. By the time Amer returned from annual leave there had still been no acknowledgement from Germany and I had decided that I had lost all faith in this particular watch and wanted either a replacement with a new example or a full refund, both of which were offered by Amer. There then followed another delay of a few weeks whilst Amer tried to get agreement from Germany. By the time agreement had been reached what was offered was a refund, a replacement was no longer offered. Amer finally picked up the watch on Friday but still no refund as yet, even though the watch is in their possession no refund can be issued until it has been returned to Germany and been thoroughly inspected by the same qualified watchmakers who have managed to send out a broken watch twice. Assuming this process takes the quoted ten days I should be getting my refund next week, by which time Chronext will have had my money for three months for a watch that I haven’t been able to wear. I doubt it will be that easy though, I have still had no communication from Chronext in Germany and no confirmation that the watch has even made it to Cologne.
Others can make up their own minds but I won’t be buying from them again. Whilst I can’t really fault Amer in London, the experience of dealing with them in Cologne is probably the worst I have ever had.
Remember guys, it's good to warn the community here but it's better to leave reviews on Trustpilot and all the other review sites you can find.
'Against stupidity, the gods themselves struggle in vain' - Schiller.
It seems that most of the issues here are in Germany, it reminds me of the time I purchased a cordovan strap from Nomos for about £70 the watch strap arrived with quick change spring bars too small for the actual strap (How on earth quality control failed to notice this is beyond me not to mention their sales people) Anyway a message to Nomos and I get an indifferent "Just send it back" response (At my expense) Never again would I buy anything from Nomos and quite frankly based on my experience and this thread the so called "German efficiency" leaves a lot to be desired.
Seems to be some common problems buying and selling that stem from it being a German company with a UK office.
Hopefully sites like Trustpilot are now more reliable than on the one occasion I’ve had the need to leave a negative review. I’ve mostly been lucky with online purchases but a couple of years ago received a really shoddy non-watch purchase from a company no longer trading with equally shoddy customer service afterwards. I then found that the internet was flooded with similar stories, yet the company maintained a near perfect Trustpilot rating. I left a negative review, it was flagged as suspicious almost instantly and disappeared completely within a couple of hours.
I’m staying clear of this lot...
You can complain to TP directly. Companies with shoddy CS are always very prompt at asking reviews to be removed, but TP is much better nowadays. The worst they can do is ask you to prove you're an actual customer but that is usually very easy.
You can also leave a review of... TrustPilot if you're unhappy
'Against stupidity, the gods themselves struggle in vain' - Schiller.
Back in Nov I ordered £750 worth of carbon fibre parts for my Ducati from a German company. All items on the website said in stock.
As soon as they had my money I got an email saying 6 to 10 weeks for delivery. No problem it’s winter and we’re in lockdown. I enquired last week when I might get my parts and was told possibly mid March..
I cancelled the order and got a refund. Absolute waste of time.
Sounds like a Dutch knife company (Who have "UK" on their website) Bought a couple of knives from them only for them to never arrive. Contact them to be told I am subject to "Dutch law" and I will be getting no refund unless the items are returned back to them (Presumably in Holland if you buy an item and its lost in the post its your fault) After several calls and weeks of being messed about they finally gave in and refunded me.
It does seem the common trend is to simply act as a broker, take your money and hope for the best you can find the stock to send on to the buyer before they get wise and start asking for a refund. More and more though I am inclined to simply buy from the UK I just cant be bothered with all this nonsense.
To add some balance to this though I have bought from Dornbluth, Stowa and Tourby who have all been first class. When I read though of the many issues cropping up in the EU with dealers I am reminded this week I bought a watch for my son and a clock in the UK. Both arrived within about 2 days, personalised letters from the company and full tracking once dispatched.
Last edited by robert75; 18th February 2021 at 17:22.
That made me laugh. Thanks!
Quick update, I received this just now, 2 days after telling them to either process the payment or return the watch,
"Thank you for your patience. I want to give you an update: Your watch is sold and we will forward your following bank details to our accounting department for the payment.
My bank details here
Sales price: xxxx GBP
-19% commission
xxxx GBP
The payment will be made within one to two weeks."
Which tells me that it's likely that the March 15th pick-up story was fabricated... and they've received the funds and sold the watch ages ago.
Funny thing is, the sale price in the email above is £200 less than the agreed one (which was advertised on their website as well until it was sold). I'm not bothered to pursue this anymore, but it's just another example of either dishonesty (for a couple of hundred pounds..) or lack of transparency (did not consult me at all if they did reduce the sale price).
Will update if the money does arrive in my account in 2 weeks.
Thanks again TZers for the comments.
Is this then a case of them selling your watch, holding the money and then paying you £200 less than the sale price when they finally decide to pay you?
£38 less if it's 19% commission on £200.
But even so :-(
My fingers crossed that there will not be VAT deducted, but I am struggling to understand how this can be avoided.
That would be £162 less, right?
Tommy, if you've had enough then I agree it's not worth the hassle.
However, if you change you mind, you could send an email back saying that you haven't agreed the lower price and you want the watch returned.
If they pay the full amount you will be happy to consider the matter closed. Otherwise you will be requesting copies of all paperwork and emails relating to this matter.
Is it a currency conversion thing?
TBH, I wouldn’t be rolling over for the £200. Unless they can give a clear and concise breakdown of how they arrived at their price, I’d be threatening legal action.
And why does it take 2 weeks to process the payment?
EDIT: I see AO says a similar thing above.
21st century version of 'the cheque's in the mail'?
^Yep, good idea OLT.
Tommy, you can use content from both our posts to construct the email.
Could well be. Chronext primarily deals in EUR and converts to GBP. When buying from them, their GBP prices fluctuate on a daily basis. I remember buying a Rolex from them a few years ago and seeing the price change daily by quite a lot.
Still dont see why it takes two weeks or are they waiting for a better exchange rate in their favour?
They use client cash to fund the business.
exactly this ^
Potentially if they make it so that I sold my watch to Chronext Ltd (UK company), and they in turn sold the watch to the buyer (in EU I assume), they pay the differential tax in Germany and I'm clear? I could be very wrong and charged VAT - will update if I receive the funds.
Thanks guys - it could be a currency conversion thing, but the price in the original agreement was cleared stated in GBP so the least they could do is proactively explain this situation (even during the recent email), rather than sneakly put a lower price.
I would request the paperwork etc / threatening legal actions yes, but I just can't be bothered anymore... the 160 pounds or sth is not worth the effort or the time.
ditto= had pretty much the same experience,wouldnt have any faith in a trustpilot rating..my review with order number was removed while positive reviews were still coming in on the site obviously false as the company concerned had already been outed as scammers..
In the end, will you have had more from Chronext than selling on Sales Corner, WF or a UK-based dealer, or have you lost out?
It is 3 or 400 more than what I could've achieved from dealers here I think (mostly because it was sold on commission). Also at the time I didn't even realise the watch needed to go to Germany tbh, I asked for a quote from their UK site as I did from 1 or 2 other UK dealers and they gave a good price for commission sale.
Of course this is provided that no further VAT etc will be deducted (refer to Raffe's posts earlier), otherwise I'm losing out for sure.
However you flip it, somewhere between yourself and the end buyer there should be a VAT liability.
Very curious how this plays out.
Another update - Chronext deposited the full amount to my account yesterday afternoon, was honestly surprised by it. No VAT was deducted.
However, Monzo then froze my account a few minutes later... and just re-enabled it (20 hours or so later) after I sent them details of all of my recent transactions (apart from this they were all purchases from cafes and supermarkets in the past few days...) So I can only assume the Chronext payment triggered it. (Monzo is notorious for freezing accounts randomly).
Anyhow, it's a happyish ending (if there are no more surprises from here).
Will still avoid Chronext at all cost
A cautionary tale. Glad it's all worked out for you. Lesson: avoid chronext!
Sent from my CLT-L09 using TZ-UK mobile app
I would add «*avoid Monzo*»
'Against stupidity, the gods themselves struggle in vain' - Schiller.
Still don't understand how this transaction could not be subject to VAT.
Why?
They are just following the law. If an unusual amount pops up in the account they have to freeze it and verify the reason behind the transaction. There is no option for them.
I do not know what the terms are, but presumably they define "unusual" a little better. And it's not the first time I hear the names Monzo and Paypal associated with frozen accounts, but rarely other banks. So either I have been really unlucky in my readings, or they interpret the law differently to other banks (I know Paypal adds an extra layer of self interest so not in the same league, just mentioned them because of association with frozen accounts).
In any case they're supposed to enquire about the origin of the funds, not ask what they can see (a break down of recent purchases) and then wait another 20 hours.
'Against stupidity, the gods themselves struggle in vain' - Schiller.
Monzo has been my main current account for years. The app makes it so easy to manage your cash. I've also had no problems with their customer services when I have needed to move large sums of cash through it for a house purchase and moving savings around. My wife is HSBC and in comparison, they are a nightmare when you need assistance.
I had a credit card frozen when I paid for some petrol in Penang some years ago. To be fair I hadn't notified the company that I would be in SE Asia, but it was such a small amount I hadn't expected any issue.
Lucky I had another card and enough USD for the rest of my travels.
Sent from my SM-G920F using Tapatalk
One reason may be his watch went in December to them.
Technically might not have sold till after Brexit but may be a reason .
I cannot understand why it would be subject to VAT if the OP posted and only dealt with the UK branch of the company.
If the watch has been sold in Germany, the VAT becomes due. Are you suggesting the UK branch have absorbed it?
It is absolutely irrelevant when the watch has been sent to Germany, the relevant event is when it sold - which was in 2021.
Maybe the German branch bought it from the U.K. branch prior to 1/1/2021...
Or it sold to a U.K. based customer
I may be wrong but Chronic websites says:
so if the buyer's contractual partner is Chronex, it implies that they own the watch at the moment of sale.
The OP effectively "sold" the watch to Chronex UK, so no VAT.
You have a point of course as the watch was sold in Germany, so VAT comes into play but it should only affect Chronex.
'Against stupidity, the gods themselves struggle in vain' - Schiller.
It was a commission sale, so neither Chronext UK nor Chronext Germany have bought the watch but the end customer in Germany has - which is clearly a VATable event.
Same as when I’ve dealt with commission sales regarding cars- Instead of paying for the watch outright like in a normal sale, all they’ve done paid for it when they’ve in essence sold it, any margin vat in the sale would be dealt with by Chrononext not the OP, all he’s done is sold to chrononext, he’s not involved in the sale at all. If they had drawn up an sales invoice between the OP and the buyer, then different kettle of fish, buyer would of had to pay vat and import duties as a private sale, they would of then invoiced the OP for a selling fee or something worded similar. It’s quite clear that that chrononext would be liable for any margin vat on the profit, just because they’ve sold it on a commission basis wouldn’t change the contract of sale either between the OP or the buyer.
Last edited by Rob153; 25th February 2021 at 19:01.
Not true.
I may look like that from a consumer perspective, but legally there is a big difference between an outright sale to Chronext and a commission sale. In a commission sale, Chronext never assumes ownership of the watch, it never enters their balance sheet and their income is a commission (it's in the name). The ownership transfers directly from the seller to the buyer, and as that has happened during 2021, it is subject to VAT (just like any sale between private parties on SC or eBay is subject to VAT when leaving the UK).
If the OP sold to Chronext, which is the opposite of what they told him (they said it was a commission sale), then it would have made a difference which steps of the sale happened before and after 31/12/2020. But that clearly didn't happen according to the information which the OP posted here. They told him when the watch wasn't sold and when it finally sold, which is clear evidence that is was a commission deal and not a sale (it wouldn't have been the OP's business if the watch sold or not in that case).
It’s just wording, commission sale, sale or return etc.... by Chrononext paying the OP direct it is an outright sale, as far as I understand it they haven’t charged him an amount for selling it they have just given him a price that they would return him? If they were just acting as a go between then they wouldn’t be warranting the goods.
Edit- Must admit I haven’t read through the whole thread, did they agree to let’s say 10% selling fee on the price it was sold for?
Last edited by Rob153; 25th February 2021 at 19:57.
That's nonsense, a commission is still a commission even if it isn't expressed in percentage points. It is about whether they buy the watch and it becomes part of their inventory or whether they sell on behalf of a client. And if you had read the thread before you stated that nonsense, you would have known that they clearly communicated about a commission sale.
And even if they faked a commission sale, effectively buying the watch from the OP when it sold during January, then that still triggered VAT.
So however way round you look at it, there is no way this sale wasn't subject to VAT.
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