Reply With QuoteHow did she get an extension built/signed off/approved, they cuts off part of your land. Did you not have the opportunity at that stage to take action?
I have a bit of experience of this having done a couple of adverse possessions on some unregistered land which effectively were part of properties that I have owned and these have gone without objection.
I'm now in a situation where I suspect a neighbour is going to try and adverse possess a bit of my garden.
It is a strip of land which she has been using as her own ... it was only a 2 1/2 years ago that I actually appreciated the position of the boundary and so pointed out her use of our land and that I didn't mind her continuing to use it but that if she did she would not be acquiring and rights.
At this point she disputed the position of the boundary but she would not accept my view. She is pretty difficult.
Over the period I have used the land to maintain the rear of the outbuilding; my access was over her land ... she has now built an extension over this route and so the land is cut off and to access it I would have to knock down a boundary wall that is in the wrong place ... if I did this it would be highly provocative.
She now wants us to sign a deed that transfers this slither of land to her via a TP1 transfer; so I guess at least as a minimum she now accepts that this land is ours ...
Anyway; I am minded to knock here back and say just leave things as they are and you can continue to use it ... if I do that I suspect her next move will be to try and adverse possess it.
She's been using it since we have been here (17 years) and for the last 2 1/2 years with our express permission ... and she has not had exclusive use as I have accessed it for maintenance ... but now I can no longer access it due to her extension ...
Not sure what to do ... should I knock the wall down and take it back; gift it away, sell it or just leave as is ...??
If she does try to AP will she be successful if I object and am I likely to end up coping a load of legal costs?
How did she get an extension built/signed off/approved, they cuts off part of your land. Did you not have the opportunity at that stage to take action?
It's just a matter of time...
I'd knock down the wall and take it back. Seems to me she's been trying to outmanoeuvre you all this time, with some success.
How many people would give you some of their land? Would she if the roles were reversed?
I've had disputes in the past and people will go to extraordinary lengths to capture a bit of someone else's land.
Had a neighbour offer to contribute to the cost of a front wall because the last 2 yards or so went in front of his garden. It didn't, he'd simply decided the boundary was 2 yards further over. He had done the same at the rear of the property and captured another 2 yards.
Another neighbour had already told me he had said to them he was going to move the boundaries while the property was empty, before it sold! Which he had.
Unfortunately he hadn't had time to remove the original concrete fence posts. He said if I tried to move the fences and boundaries he would take me to court, get solicitors involved, etc etc blah blah.
I said go ahead I'm doing it tomorrow, and did so. Never heard another word about it and he was friendly from then on. There's nowt so queer as folk.
Started out with nothing. Still have most of it left.
OP, sounds like you need grow a pair and tell this neighbour just how it is.
If it's your land, tell her to sling her hook and back that up with a letter from a solicitor. By sounds of it, she's not going to be in attendance at your next Pimms garden party at any time soon.
Kick her where it hurts and knob her off out of your thoughts, life, access route etc etc.
Some people take the p!$$ !!!
It’s an awkward situation as I don’t want to get sucked into a neighbours at war situation.
We don’t really get on but we don’t battle either. It’s a respectful stand off. She’s a weird person.
She’s the kind of person who could turn into a massive PITA so I’m keen to avoid that.
Just wondering if I could successfully defend a AP claim or if the slither is effective gone already ?
If it’s no real loss for you, I would offer to sell it to her, in writing and hope to get a reply, in writing, that agin would prove she knows it’s yours, if she says no, then advise her you want it back. If it gets to pay for a holiday then that’s a bonus.
Cheers..
Jase
And by letting her steamroller her lifestyle over you, you're absolutely giving her the yellow flag signal. Slither of land today.......what tomorrow.Originally Posted by Montello
Stop her in her tracks
No experience of this myself but I would try call the home insurance and see if you could use the legal cover to get solicitors involved immediately.
My mum has the same thing with her front garden path, the previous owner put in narrow stones and as a result her attached neighbour has an extra foot of width. When my mum laid new paving she kept to what was there as she didn't want to fall out with the neighbour. I would have claimed it back.
Sort it now ASAP don't let it run. Avoid solicitors if you can (any legal cover solicitors you might get via your home policy are likely to be woeful). Have a discussion and get a boundary agreement.
Don't just take it down. Police consider it criminal and you could end up with a caution.
I spent Friday afternoon pegging a boundary following dispute. My clients had spent just shy of £90k and it hadn't even got to court.
The other side (who were making the "claim" -I use that term lightly) had to pay over £4k in settling, did not get the garden but it has taken nearly 10 years ( my involvement 3 years).
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This sounds the most reasonable solution and just see where it goes. If you get something then great, if not then let it go!
If she’s been using it as her own fur seventeen plus years then you not having it isn’t going to adversely affect your life.
We have been here 17 years, it was only 2 1/2 years ago I became aware of the issue.
There are other issues going on as well.
She wants us to sign a deed that includes a boundary definition. We tried to get her to sign a similar deed 17 years ago but she declined. Now she wants it done and it now includes this boundary redefinition.
Some of the deed tidies up some deficiencies in our titles and some other matters which would be beneficial if we wish to sell.
However the content of the deed has been under discussion for 2 years.
I’m minded to just refuse to sign the deed and leave things as they have been for the last 17 years.
Just wondering if I could defend an AP claim if she tried that.
Also, I have referred the matter to our lender as they have a stake in the issue.
Last edited by Montello; 25th January 2021 at 21:09.
The best way to defend a AP claim must surely send her a letter, by solicitor if necessary stating your position on the matter, it’s your land, don’t let her bully you into giving it up, also state your previous use and maintenance over the years.
I would be going mental if someone tried that on my property.
Cheers..
Jase
Ditto.
To be fair to the neighbour, and this maybe giving her too much credit, it maybe that she thought that the slither was hers from day one and she has been here 32 years. So to her it looks like I’m trying to take what she perceives to be hers by trying to respect what’s on the title which differs from what’s been going on on the ground for decades.
It’s only relatively recently that I realised what the actual boundary is.
Just trying to work out the best way forward and the likely things could happen.
If she thought the sliver was hers, she wouldn’t be asking for a boundary redefinition deed signed.
She knows now, but may have been under the impression it was hers for the previous 30 years.
I’m just trying to see things from her perspective... not that she’s earned any goodwill over the years.
Instruct your solicitor to act quickly to achieve whatever outcome you want. And smile nicely when you see her. It doesn't have to be personal, you're acting reasonably.
Life is short.
You both seem to agree it’s your land. Could you not offer to rent the land to her for a token sum, which is renewed yearly at your discretion. That way if you or future owners want it they can
Get a solicitor involved, let your legal representative talk to her and don’t have any personal discussions with your neighbour at all. I think the time for being pleasant are long gone, I’m not suggesting being aggressive etc.. step back, try to become detached from the storm and leave it with the legal team.
This.
Or give her the land and creep away saying “thank you, thank you”
Started out with nothing. Still have most of it left.
Best sort it out, you will have to at some point
If you want/ have to sell, or she sells it may become an issue that holds everything up and becomes very stressful
I would have thought land registry docs and a decent property solicitor should be able to sort out the boundary fairly easily
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Best sort it out, you will have to at some point
If you want/ have to sell, or she sells it may become an issue that holds everything up and becomes very stressful
I would have thought land registry docs and a decent property solicitor should be able to sort out the boundary fairly easily
You need to start off by looking at what value the land has. If you took it back, what would you do with it, presumably add it to your garden which may add some value and come at a cost of moving a boundary so net benefit?. Likewise, from what you describe, it has a value to her as an extension to her garden. Without seeing a plan it's hard to advise on what to do for the best, remember, if it is your boundary and the land is immediately the other side, you could install an access gate in your boundary to continue to be able to exercise control over the land given you would not be passing over any of your neighbours land and she has precluded the previous means of access. She won't like that as a concept....
These things can turn into a flat out money pit argument with legal costs exponential to the value of the piece of land. I agree with the principle that I wouldn't be giving away something I owned. But if the benefit of reclaiming the land is low, then the best option IMHO has already been mentioned, offer to sell her the land in writing for a fair price and see what response you get.
Our old neighbour tried something similar with an old deed of access over our land, essentially wanting us to grant him greater access over our land than he has ever had before, on the basis that he had enjoyed that access for many many years, even before we owned the property. He had not enjoyed the access which he stated, so we therefore instructed solicitors to rebuke his claim.
If I remember correctly, the solicitors estimate was £17k plus VAT and it took over 2 years to resolve with the Land Registry arbitrating, even then we had to force it to go to court to achieve a resolution.
There is no way to resolve this without following the proper channels. Even then, it will probably get nasty at some point and take absolutely ages to resolve.
If you don't challenge it though, it will never end and will likely become a problem when you come to sell your property, as you must disclose any boundary disputes as part of the sale process.
Edit:
I should add, if you aren't bothered by retaining ownership of the land (which it sounds like you aren't), just let her buy the land but make sure that the paperwork is fully resolved with Land Registry.
As above - get a solicitor and your lender involved quickly, if she wants the land and it is provably yours then she can buy it - that's how society works. In my view she is attempting to steal your property.
Good luck.
How wide is this sliver of land? If you need access put in a gate - no need to move wall.
If extension is on her land why couldn’t she? Only cuts off OPs land because his wall is in wrong place.
Check if you've got a Legal Expenses Insurance policy attached to your household, motor insurance or credit cards etc. Trust me, they love a boundary dispute!
Would be excellent if both parties had cover from the same company.
I wouldn't know about the chances of your neighbour being able to successfully claim the land via AP however I do believe you need to formally conclude this one way or the other. Either you sell the land with all costs incurred covered by the neighbour or you formally claim back what's yours.
OP only you know how to best negotiate the bits that are beneficial for you against those beneficial to her.
However, AP can be stopped in its tracks by sending a letter stating what the current situation is, and that the current "possession" is not legal title.
Include a description of the ownership of the sliver (which is indirectly bolstered by your previous maintenance) and the fact that it is not satisfactory that she now denies you access to that sliver with the new extension.
If this letter includes a promise to negotiate in good faith for the resolution of all boundary issues, then this shouldn't start a neighbour war, but at the same time it stops any claims of AP.
You will need proof that this letter has been received by the neighbour.
D
Thats actually a really good point! make sure you both go for the top level of cover and then get them to sort it. Bet your insurance company will blame the 'other' party lol.
This sounds like it could get complicated very quickly. I would suggest you need to engage a solicitor at the very least and make sure your objections to her taking the land by AP are recorded as disputed. However on general principle:
- she’s asking you to transfer to her ownership of that land
- therefore she knows it’s yours
- you should be in a better position to say no or bargain for what you want
If you’re mindful to transfer her that land, I would suggest you sell it to her at the current rate + take into account how not owning that land could affect your own resale value. (I for one would never entertain purchasing a property where an entitled neighbour has steamrollered the vendor into giving up a valuable commodity for free - what’s next, your driveway)?
Good luck OP. Don’t get steamrollered! You give an inch and you know they’ll take a mile.
Thanks for the comments; it's a tricky situation which I don't wish to get out of hand.
There are two matters under debate with the neighbour; the strip of land and a right of way she has over our property.
Neither of which represents a massive issue to us but I think are more important to the neighbour; she's not a very nice person but we rub along just to keep things civil.
I suspect she has the capacity to be quite unpleasant and so I don't want to get sucked into that mess.
These issues came up 2 1/2 years ago when her tree did some damage to our garage; that ending in us claiming on our insurance but at the same time I became aware that the boundary position we had observed for the previous 15 years was actually incorrect and the tree that had damaged my garage was actually on my title even though she had planted it.
Since then she's been keen to sort it out which would benefit us in that it clears away any disputes and sets out need terms. It's been a slow process and I have been getting solicitors letters over the last two years and I have been responding to them. It has been my tactic to drag it out...now that process is reaching a conclusion and I am weighing up my options and trying to forecast what may happen if I go hard ball on her... hence my question about defending an AP claim.
I have sent all the info to my mortgage company for comment and I have legal insurance so will contact them.
Last edited by Montello; 26th January 2021 at 18:04.
I feel like this may be the place to draw a line in the sand. What could she end up doing with the land, if she were, to say plant more trees would it affect you light?
I have £100k of legal cover which covers Right of Way disputes and Boundary Disputes.
I have started a claim but get the feeling they will try and wiggle out of paying as they have a 3 point test:
1) Does the issue fall within the period of insurance (this policy is new as I changed this year and I'm wondering if they will say it's an old issue)
2) Do they think they have a 51% or more chance of winning (I suspect yes)
3) Is the cost of action proportionate to the matter in hand (Who puts a value of annoyance?)
I will see how this progresses; the helpline was useful and gave me some reasonable tips.
My view is the issue has only really become active since her extension was completed (last April) as this has changed her use of the Right of Way ... and has cut off my access to my land. Even though we'd had some dialogue over the issues previously.
We will see if they are willing to take it on ...
It’s the extension that prevents access to your land that would annoy me, she knows she is in the wrong in this, if she plays too much hard ball she must be worried you would have good grounds to insist on that access putting her extension in jeopardy, have you made her a offer to sell it to her? Would that be acceptable to you? It would seem to be the best solution all round.
Cheers..
Jase
I suspect she knows she's pushing her luck.
The Right of Way was granted as rear access and her primary access is to the front which she can use to get to the street without crossing my land.
Since she's completed the extension her habits have changed and what was used once a week is now used daily and instead of parking her car on her drive and using her primary access she has taken to parking on the street and using the rear access all the time.
The legal bloke I spoke to on the help line stated that he thought that this was "Overuse of an easement in a way that was more than its intended purpose and as such could be considered excessive" ... which is interesting point of view. I hadn't thought that even her use could be beyond the use of the initial grant.
I will see if the home insurance people will take this on ... if not I will have to decide how much of this I want to get into as the issue isn't really worth spending loads of money on with solicitors.
Don’t see why she can’t build on her land as she wishes, even if it cuts access for OP.
What would be useful we be to understand the potential costs.
As it stands she’s sent me a few letters and paid to have the dimensions of the land in question surveyed.
The survey is correct so isn’t a matter of dispute.
So, what are the risks? The matter goes to court and I have to pay for legal representation and if I lose could I end up with her costs?
This is a minor disagreement over a right of way and a slither of land ... how much is it likely to cost me if it goes to court?
I'm not sure of the court costs.
But my main concern would be any disagreement that you have to disclose if you sell the property.
Does anyone know what you have to disclose?
As far as I remember from conveyancing days (only as a BA in IT): Boundary disputes are a definite yes. Or generally any kind of dispute where the vendor has entered into correspondence with a neighbour. Our firm had several issues with undisclosed boundary issues that took years to resolve manually even after the company had gone belly up.
I have some experience in adverse possession. The old law was heavily favoured in the person who was squattings favour. After 12 years squatting they made an application and received title to the property. The new law states that if an application is made, all the original owner has to do is simply respond to the application with a big fat NO and the applicant is automatically refused title. The law is now in favour of the original owner. But, (not in your case), if you don’t keep your address details up to date with the land registry and they send you the applicants application and you don’t receive it, after 65 days of no response the applicant will automatically get the title. So, keep your property details up to date and you simply cannot fail.
My advice? Get a solicitor to write a letter to her to ask for all boundaries to be reinstated by xyz date (maybe 28 days from request), or if not you will do it. Inform them that they can make a claim for adverse possession if they believe they are in the right (knowing that when you get the letter from land registry you can tick the no box when asked if you accept the application. You can then retake your land). The lady simply has no legs to stand on. Law is law and fortunately it’s on your side. Personally I’d take it back as soon as possible. Print the title plan and post it through her door with the land in questioned highlighted on your deeds. She’s not silly, TP1 is a change of ownership form. She must have been praying you would sign.
Sooner the better!
Last edited by Yeti; 26th January 2021 at 21:16.
The fact she tried to pull a fast one by asking you to sign a TP1 would make me want to clarify the boundary even more.
Cheers..
Jase
My thoughts also. That’s similar to the OP going round asking her to sign the V5 logbook of her motor over to him, I’m sure she’d swiftly tell him to FRO.
Interesting as the solicitors I have had brief discussions with have implied she’d have a reasonable case for AP?
The TP1 clearly indicates she accepts now that the land is on my title. The form has the sale figure entered as £1.
Montello, I know you have to live there, and that it's easy for everyone else who doesn't to say "I'd be going mad, send in the lawyers" etc, but your description of her behaviour is very concerning. People like this try to get away with what their instinct tells them they can get away with ... in short, there comes a point when one has to hit the bully back. And I think you're at that point. As others have said, her attempt to get you to sign that form - with a figure of £1 on it! - is actionably outrageous and she doesn't deserve any more of your goodwill.
This. The Law Society 'Property Information Form' [TA6] which every seller has to fill in for the conveyancer asks front and central in Section 2: 'Have there been any disputes or complaints regarding this property or a property nearby? (If Yes give details etc)' and then 'Is the seller aware of anything which might lead to a dispute about the property or a property nearby? (ditto)'. In your case you'd have to say Yes x 2, and fill in a lot of detail, triggering instant concern in the buyer's conveyancer, and walkaway instincts in all but the keenest buyer.
Had she built on your land?
Misinformed I’m afraid. Some solicitors don’t have enough experience around the subject.
The squatter can only claim legal ownership through you signing the TP1 or adverse possession. If you don’t sign, and don’t agree to the adverse possession there’s nothing the neighbour can do. Further more if you take back your land by way of taking down anything on your land and re establishing your boundaries, your neighbour would have to take you to court at her cost. She couldn’t win as you would have your deeds to prove ownership. You simply have to take back your land and ask her to launch a legal challenge. Her solicitor would advise her she cannot win..
No, but there is a 6ft wall built in the wrong place preventing access. It was there when we moved in but I don’t know who put it there.
I’m aware this needs cleaning up prior to any sale but we aren’t planning on selling any time so thre is now rush on that.
I’m keen to clean this up and maybe willing to give ground, quite literally, for an easy life.
How big is the piece of land , and if you have no access to it due to the wall- or not used it in 17 years due to a wall and can’t do anything with it- are you going to miss it?
I’ve read horror stories where people have lost life savings and years of stress over the tiniest bit of land . Not worth it .
Does your neighbour have a letter box?
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