Reply With QuoteFranky Four Fingers.
Am I right in thinking there is a Land Rover expert that frequents the forum? Or indeed if anyone else could help I would be grateful.
I need some help with the better half's Range Rover Evoque which is giving me some grief.
It's a 2012 SD4 2.2 diesel with manual box. The car runs fine, absolutely no problems. The problem is starting it. Last week it suddenly started cranking for a good 7 to 10 seconds before starting. Like you'd expect when you've just changed the fuel filter and its pulling up the fuel. Like I say once it starts, and it always does, it drives mint. Stop even for just a few minutes and it's back to cranking for 10 secs before starting. It's a push button start and it sometimes cranks for 10 secs, stops then goes back to cranking for another 10 secs, sometimes only starting on the third cycle.
Just to note so far I have replaced the fuel filter, checked fuel pressures on live test via diagnostics. Fuel is good quality and tank is 2/3 full. No faults are logged new or historical.
Any ideas anyone? I searched the web with the symptoms but it hasn't brought up anything other than fuel filter, which has been changed.
Thanks in advance,
Neil
Last edited by Neil; 7th May 2021 at 19:38.
Franky Four Fingers.
"Once is happenstance. Twice is coincidence. The third time it's enemy action."
'Populism, the last refuge of a Tory scoundrel'.
Diesels have glow plugs to help cold staring. When you initially press the start button you will see the orange glow plug symbol on your dash,itslike a couple of wire coils. If the outside temperature is below a certain value, the car won't start until it detects the glow plug activation. This only takes a second or two, then it will turnover and start. At least this is how my RRS works.
Glow plus are known to fail over time and need replacing although yours are only 8 years old. I don't know if you would get a fault code if the glow plug relay or fuse is faulty.
It may not be this of course. Bloody land rovers.
You rang?Originally Posted by number2
Quick question, does the vehicle always start ok once warm?
If you were to drive it to the shops- pop inside for 10 minutes, will it restart ok afterwards or does it still crank for ages then start?
My first thought was glow plugs, but as it’s the same when the engine is warm (and wouldn’t be using glow plugs) I don’t think that’s the problem. With the push button start it goes through a sequence ie glow pugs before starting to crank.
I kind of wish it wouldn’t start at all, chance then of finding the fault.
No, cranks forever even if you stop and try to start straight away.
Ok great.
Has the vehicle ever just cut out for no reason and restarted ok?
I had a similar problem to this on a diesel car I had (not LR) the AD did a couple of checks and it was the battery, seemed great to me but a new battery sorted it.
No, she stalled it once but dipped the clutch and it restarted, stop start system?
I know you said you read the fault codes but was that just the engine or globally?
This has been suggested by someone else as well, that the battery although has the power to turn over the engine but there's not enough in it to power the PCM. I suppose starting it with jump pack should show if that's the case?
Not a diagnostic expert I'm afraid, I did a full automatic scan, cleared a couple of historic codes relating to door locks which came up then did a re scan. Came back no faults then went into power train and did another scan.
PCM is the module that releases the starter motor so it isn’t that
Can you measure battery voltage during cranking with the diagnostic equipment you have?
yes it can,
There are 2 issues Ive had with a 2.2 not starting when warm, one is the crank sensor the other is the throttle body, out of the 2 the crank sensor is more likely
I’ve never had an Evoque that will crank over ok but fails to start due to low battery voltage. I’m not saying it’s impossible however you’re suggestion would prove the point. As you said it would be better if it completely failed. Nowadays with the absence of any hard fault codes engine diagnosis can be costly as most people end up having a punt. I don’t rely on guesswork but in this instance past experience is all I’ve got to go on.
Don’t think we have any hairdressers on here but might be wrong
RIAC
I would agree on a loss of cam/crank correlation. When crank sensor looses sync it reverts to using cam but clearly this has a lower resolution
Checking / replacing crank sensor would be first port of call as FFF says
Thanks Franky, your experience is worth a lot. I'm no mechanic, I have an interest in an MOT centre and quite often the guys in there take the p**s out of my limited mechanical knowledge and I can never get anything of mine done unless I tell them exactly what to fix, and then they leave it in the corner because 'its only mine'. Perhaps I should forget to sign off the wages :)
The crank sensor has been mentioned by another LR guru so you may be on the right track. Just thought it would have chucked up a code, or do they not always?
Thanks Mk2 and Franky, looks like a crank sensor is first port of call.
I'll let you know how it goes?
Thanks guys
You’re welcome....No not always which is one of the reasons why I’m leaning towards it. Thankfully the crank sensor is very accessible and the parts are reasonable. I would however source the part from Land Rover and don’t be tempted with a cheaper OE quality part.
Good luck and let us know how you get on.
He wasn’t asking about an MX-5!
That's because Mazda's don't go wrong.
Had the crank sensor go on a Vauxhall which gave the same symptoms.
I didn’t even bother to diagnose the problem. I just called the AA out and let him do the hard work. That’s what’s the membership fee is for, right?
The patrolman diagnosed it in about 2 mins, and had an sensor replacement in the van which he replaced.
Maybe try the AA, RAC or whoever you are with. Just tell them it won’t start. They don’t need to know it starts after 8-10 cranks.
This, sometimes the saving is not worth the hassle with some of the LR stuff.
When you look long into an abyss, the abyss looks long into you.........
We have have had this on two Evoques. If you have fitted an aftermarket fuel filter that will be the problem,we did and both were cured by fitting main dealer filters- Nissans give the same problem and we now fit dealer only to save any issues. Ps both evoques were fine until we fitted non genuine- we tried Mann & Mahle but no good.
I wouldn't be so sure...2003 323 estate, never got to the bottom of it running rough.
"Once is happenstance. Twice is coincidence. The third time it's enemy action."
'Populism, the last refuge of a Tory scoundrel'.
MANN and Mahle both make filters for JLR, the difference is a few digits in the part numbers. They are stamped Mann and mahle. I predominantly fit these filters and have never had a single issue with any of them.……very strange
The problem started before I changed the filter. Changing the filter was an attempt at fixing the problem and made no difference. Is it possible that the filter was the problem, and fitting a non genuine one didn't fix it?
Car is currently at the garage that supplied it, waiting for a crank sensor. If that doesn't sort it I'll be picking it up and back to square one. 3 months in and this Evoque has been a bit of pain. Previous Kia Sorrento she had for 14yrs, did 135,000 miles in it and apart from normal servicing it cost £47 in repairs when the MAF sensor went. Don't think I'm going to that lucky with the Evoque :)
I agree with you- most odd. Maybe a run of faulty filters? I’ve been doing this 50yrs now so I can’t swallow 3 bad efforts on my part. We couldn’t see any physical differences and it went into two days the first time until we tried a dealer part. We knew we had created the fault so it had to be component or human. I understand your scepticism FFF but the story may help somebody,you never know. Ta
Which has just gone through the MOT without a single advisory :)
I knew it would, that Kia will outlive me.
UPDATE
Garage not happy to put a crank sensor on it. They think because it isn't showing a code it's ok. They are now saying they think it's the fuel pump, reason being that when starting it's looking for fuel pressure at 2000psi but only showing 600psi on the scan (however the fact it runs mint with no issues once started makes me doubt the pump theory). The starting issue started suddenly and I'd have thought a pump issue would be more gradual. When I changed the fuel filter there was no metal fillings or the like in it, which may have pointed to a damaged pump. They are getting a second opinion, but who that is I don't know.
If I get chance tomorrow I think I should pick it up from them.
What are the costs of replacement of each item? If it’s marginal, may just be worth doing anyway.
I’ve just had a thought about your car. To your best knowledge as your vehicle ever been mis fuelled.....have you or the wife ever stuck even the smallest amount of petrol in the tank by mistake?
Edit.....You’re engine will Chuck up fault codes sooner than look at it, whilst I appreciate their concern it’s strange they don’t use the same logic for the fuel pressure. You would logically assume that if the fuel system pressure was low under any condition why isn’t there any fault codes?
Last edited by Franky Four Fingers; 27th January 2021 at 21:19.
To the best of our knowledge no miss fuelling. We’ve had the car since last November.
The garage that have the car at the moment can’t seem to do anything without a code 😀
Independant or LR Main Dealer?
When you look long into an abyss, the abyss looks long into you.........
Independent
Then they won’t fix it.
The high pressure fuel pump on your car is capable of producing a colossal pressure, from memory 22000 plus PSI. If it was capable of producing fuel pressure to maintain high engine speed it would produce pressure to start. On the side of your high pressure fuel pump is a lift pump which draws fuel from the tank through the filter and then to the volume valve of the fuel pump where the pressure is increased for injection. If this was faulty it would run out of pressure at higher engine speed also. You’ve always said this isn't the case so I would seriously question the diagnosis of a faulting fuel pump.
I’m not with the vehicle so I’m only going from your explanation however from everything you’ve said I’d be banging a crank sensor on it before anything else.
Ive just messaged my business partner if he had any thoughts on a 2.2 Evoque not starting hot or cold- no fault codes and without asking any questions he said crank sensor
Last edited by Franky Four Fingers; 27th January 2021 at 21:56.
Go with FFF's advice.
When you look long into an abyss, the abyss looks long into you.........
If they’re refusing to change the crank sensor it’s not a hard job to do yourself. Off side front wheel off, inner wheel arch liner out, disconnect the connector and undo 1 10mm bolt....reverse.
This is probably a stupid question, but does the Evoque not have a fuel return valve or some other means to maintain pressure in the fuel system when not running?
If so, is it possible this has failed, meaning no or low residual pressure on start up and the pump has to get the system to pressure before the engine will fire, resulting in the slow start?
Yes in the injector spill return pipes however the issue occurs straightaway after switching off when hot. It’s a good shout but due to the nature of the fault I kind of discounted it.
I’ll order one in the morning, pick the car up and yes I’m ok fitting myself. It’s only at this garage because we have a warranty on the car and this is the suppliers garage. Thought it would be easier just didn’t realise they haven’t employed any mechanics just fitters that take fluids out and put fluids in.
if the code reader shows live data check the rpm whilst cranking if its 0000 then kicks in as the car starts that would confirm the crank sensor (Does the rev counter register anything whilst cranking ?). some diesels can struggle with a failing starter motor as it cant turn over quiet fast enough to produce enough pressure for the ecu to allow a start.
i would be taking it to a different garage as your car could be there for a long time without an outcome
Pleeeease try a main dealer fuel filter- they are not expensive and it will shut me up!
Ok update,
Picked the car up this morning, checked battery with tester/meter and started it off jump starter to make sure it's not a battery problem. Ran another scan, no codes or faults. I fitted the new crank sensor (and put a genuine LR fuel filter on).
No change, just the same- cranks over forever then starts. Runs great once started, spanked it down the motorway, not a twitch. 15/20 minute run, switch off, leave a couple of minutes and it cranks over for 10/15 secs or more before starting.
Run another scan, no faults, no codes.
No idea what my plan B is at the moment.
Donyou know how to bump start a car- think you said you had an manual?
Could you maybe give it a sniff of easy start to see if it starts straight away ? Would indicate lack of fuel if it starts up with it ? Not sure with these modern engines if it could damage it or not, maybe FFF knows ?
Cheers
Simon
Ralph Waldo Emerson: We ask for long life, but 'tis deep life, or noble moments that signify. Let the measure of time be spiritual, not mechanical.
No not really and it’s good idea.....this is a puzzling one this one seeing as it goes really well once started.
Id like to know OP if the vehicle bump starts ok.
I’ll try it tomorrow, not sure what that’ll prove though?
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