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Thread: The Burger Thread.

  1. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by Kingstepper View Post
    Salt is only added when serving but was really thinking of making own mince for burger.

    Never fancied tartare TBH but eggs don’t worry me, safer than they used to be!
    Most I’ve tried in restaurants have had a little salt added, or things like salted capers, chopped salted/pickled gherkins or similar added in the prep.

    It’s not my thing. I tried it initially by choice but wasn’t that fussed, and would have preferred a cooked steak or a burger. I’ve had it a few times since, and the last time was at a Patek Phillips dinner where it was the only edible choice for that course in the dinner for me.

    I think I’d still prefer a good juicy burger every time
    It's just a matter of time...

  2. #52
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    Loving this thread, hard to beat a great burger. Home made burger recipes are great especially on the BBQ, lean steak mince with a beaten egg, lots of chopped parsley and a few fresh breadcrumbs, but out and about you can't beat a Wimpy quarter pounder, best fast-food burger ever!

  3. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by demonloop View Post
    Yet people have been eating steak tartare for centuries and survived.

    I wouldn’t do it with mince from Asda granted. But fresh mince from my trusted butcher, no problem.

    Have yet to poison myself (or the fam) and I’ve been cooking them “medium” for 20 years.
    I like steak medium-rare. If you actually look at the link I put in my post you will understand why undercooked burgers are dangerous.

    "Harmful bacteria can be carried on the surface of whole cuts of meat. When a rare steak is seared these bacteria are killed, making the steak safe to eat.

    When meat is minced to produce burgers, any harmful bacteria from the surface of the raw meat spread throughout the burger. Unless the burger is cooked right through, these bacteria can remain alive on the inside. This applies to all burgers, including burgers made from good quality or expensive meat.

    That's why a burger needs to be served well done, while a steak can be served rare."

    https://www.food.gov.uk/safety-hygiene/burgers

    https://www.foodmanufacture.co.uk/Ar...od-safety-risk


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  4. #54
    Grand Master Saint-Just's Avatar
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    As a side note, in France when you go to a butcher and ask for mince, you will see that the machine is refrigerated and cleaned between each operation. They cannot mince it in advance.
    You can also choose the cut you want minced, although it is usually wiser to tell your butcher how you’ll cook it and let him choose for you.
    'Against stupidity, the gods themselves struggle in vain' - Schiller.

  5. #55
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    ^ I loved that in Spain also, really nice to decide what you want, and fat content etc - loved shopping in that environment


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  6. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by oldoakknives View Post
    I like steak medium-rare. If you actually look at the link I put in my post you will understand why undercooked burgers are dangerous.

    "Harmful bacteria can be carried on the surface of whole cuts of meat. When a rare steak is seared these bacteria are killed, making the steak safe to eat.

    When meat is minced to produce burgers, any harmful bacteria from the surface of the raw meat spread throughout the burger. Unless the burger is cooked right through, these bacteria can remain alive on the inside. This applies to all burgers, including burgers made from good quality or expensive meat.

    That's why a burger needs to be served well done, while a steak can be served rare."

    https://www.food.gov.uk/safety-hygiene/burgers

    https://www.foodmanufacture.co.uk/Ar...od-safety-risk


    CAN be, not always. Doesn’t NEED to be.

    You had a bad experience, move on, live a little and try things the way they are meant to be; a little pink is perfect for a burger & how I always cook mine.


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  7. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mj2k View Post
    ^ I loved that in Spain also, really nice to decide what you want, and fat content etc - loved shopping in that environment


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    Yup the old ladies in Spain are often very, very demanding about the precise mixture of meats and how they like them cut when at the Butchers counter, especially for their albondigas/meatballs, everyone seems to have their own special recipe, take that Mc D's.

  8. #58
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    The recipes and sauces in Byron: The Cookbook are excellent as are the steak burgers from online butcher Donald Russell.

  9. #59
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    Time is key. Quality meat freshly minced, the risk is very low. Mince does have a lot of surface area to cultivate bacteria so it’s best to eat it on the very same day. Wait a day or two and the risk will be significantly higher. Choose your restaurants wisely and stay away from supermarket mince altogether when doing burgers. I’ve never had a problem and in fact I don’t personally know anyone who has.

  10. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mj2k View Post
    CAN be, not always. Doesn’t NEED to be.

    You had a bad experience, move on, live a little and try things the way they are meant to be; a little pink is perfect for a burger & how I always cook mine.


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    Hey look just putting the info out there. If you want to ignore the advice and facts that’s fine. Good luck.

    Quote Originally Posted by Possu View Post
    Time is key. Quality meat freshly minced, the risk is very low. Mince does have a lot of surface area to cultivate bacteria so it’s best to eat it on the very same day. Wait a day or two and the risk will be significantly higher. Choose your restaurants wisely and stay away from supermarket mince altogether when doing burgers. I’ve never had a problem and in fact I don’t personally know anyone who has.
    I don’t think you read the information on the links I provided. But like I said the information is there.

  11. #61
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    For good burgers to buy I’ve struggled to beat the Costco Aberdeen Angus ones they are a truly good burger and done on the bbq wow just wow

  12. #62
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    So has anyone got a particular ‘build’ they like? Any particular combination of burger/condiments/extras that really works?

  13. #63
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    You get extras with a burger?

    Presumably this helps with the run rate, especially in one day games.

    *silence*

    Er... moving swiftly on.

    I quite like Maldon salt.

  14. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by dice View Post
    I think the brioche bun is massively overused.
    Fashion nonsense. No more, no less. I serve mine on 'oven bottom' muffins, mainly because they're low profile so I can stack more of the good stuff on the burger and still eat it without having to dislocate my jaw.

  15. #65
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    ^MCH, I'm using the watch already by the way. Useful to offset burger calories.

  16. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by oldoakknives View Post
    I don’t think you read the information on the links I provided. But like I said the information is there.
    I actually did. Doesn’t change what I think. Yes, if there are harmful bacteria on the meat they will be pushed inside minced meat. The practical fact is that the number of harmful bacteria will be very low at the beginning provided that the butchering process has been done right. Low enough as to not cause problems for a person with normal immune response. Minced meat does provide very good breeding grounds for bacteria, so the bacteria must not be allowed to grow. A two-day-old mince may cause problems for a person with good immune system no matter how right everything has been done. Even if one does get sick the risk of death is practically nil for a healthy person. I’m willing to take the statistical risk of having a case of trots every half a century rather than having my burgers ruined. YMMV

  17. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by Possu View Post
    I actually did. Doesn’t change what I think. Yes, if there are harmful bacteria on the meat they will be pushed inside minced meat. The practical fact is that the number of harmful bacteria will be very low at the beginning provided that the butchering process has been done right. Low enough as to not cause problems for a person with normal immune response. Minced meat does provide very good breeding grounds for bacteria, so the bacteria must not be allowed to grow. A two-day-old mince may cause problems for a person with good immune system no matter how right everything has been done. Even if one does get sick the risk of death is practically nil for a healthy person. I’m willing to take the statistical risk of having a case of trots every half a century rather than having my burgers ruined. YMMV
    Enjoy.
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  18. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by village View Post
    So has anyone got a particular ‘build’ they like? Any particular combination of burger/condiments/extras that really works?
    I tend to follow the theory of three condiments maximum to not overwhelm the central meat flavour - for me it's grilled onion, ketchup and mustard (light on both).

    Having said that I will occasionally hit the options of cheese, bacon, lettuce, tomato, mayo and grilled mushrooms but it does turn it into a bit of a sloppy mess. Under no circumstances does gherkin/pickle appear!

  19. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by oldoakknives View Post
    Hey look just putting the info out there. If you want to ignore the advice and facts that’s fine. Good luck.



    I don’t think you read the information on the links I provided. But like I said the information is there.
    Well I spent 4 years studying food & microbiology, do speak from a level of science & experience beyond the government’s advice. They base their advice on the lowest common denominator, ie making sure the thickest don’t kill themselves with stupidity.

    Temperature and time are 2 different things, you can sous vide a burger before grilling, it will be as red as you like, but safe from a microbial perspective, all about the pasteurisation process.


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  20. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mj2k View Post
    They base their advice on the lowest common denominator, ie making sure the thickest don’t kill themselves with stupidity.
    Always a bad idea. It leads to Idiocracy.
    'Against stupidity, the gods themselves struggle in vain' - Schiller.

  21. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saint-Just View Post
    Always a bad idea. It leads to Idiocracy.
    Indeed, often even with science on my side some SV textures & visuals have challenged me to eat it lol.


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  22. #72
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    I'm with the poster on brioche bun burgers, next level stuff imo. That said Five Guys is a convenience weakness for me so what do I know.

  23. #73
    Grand Master oldoakknives's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mj2k View Post
    Well I spent 4 years studying food & microbiology, do speak from a level of science & experience beyond the government’s advice. They base their advice on the lowest common denominator, ie making sure the thickest don’t kill themselves with stupidity.

    Temperature and time are 2 different things, you can sous vide a burger before grilling, it will be as red as you like, but safe from a microbial perspective, all about the pasteurisation process.


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    I'm sure that people will be using sous vide before grilling their burgers. I'm glad your studies give you a better understanding than the Food Standards Agency.
    Started out with nothing. Still have most of it left.

  24. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by oldoakknives View Post
    I'm sure that people will be using sous vide before grilling their burgers. I'm glad your studies give you a better understanding than the Food Standards Agency.
    FFS ...are you legally obliged to turn every thread you look at into an argument? Are you incapable of stating your opinion and then just leaving it at that?

  25. #75
    I am a big fan of a burger. My perfect home made is 2 x patties pressed thin and cooked on a red hot flat plate to get those crispy edges, topped with crispy smoked streaky bacon with cheap cheese slice melted on top.

    I like that on a sesame seed bun, inside toasted on the flat plate, with ketchup, Mayo, mustard, lettuce, onion and gherkin.

    It can be messy but I try to keep the extras relatively light.

    Cheers

    Ross

  26. #76
    Grand Master oldoakknives's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by village View Post
    FFS ...are you legally obliged to turn every thread you look at into an argument? Are you incapable of stating your opinion and then just leaving it at that?
    No more than you are obliged to follow me around making snide comments.
    Is hardly an argument, simply disagreeing. It is allowed you know.
    I simply stated the advice of the Food Standards Agency.
    No doubt you’ll want the last word as usual.
    Last edited by oldoakknives; 17th January 2021 at 16:49.

  27. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by thegoat View Post
    www.manarestaurant.co.uk

    The food here is exemplary. Manchester’s first Michelin starred restaurant in forever and they are producing 100 burgers a day for takeaway.
    We’ve managed to book a couple for the 29 th of January.
    I went to the OPM x Carter’s of Moseley event a few years back and if the burger is anywhere near as good you’re in for the great. That said it was eat in and they had paired wines/beers so a different vibe but that was great.

  28. #78
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    The Burger Thread.

    Quote Originally Posted by oldoakknives View Post
    No more than you are obliged to follow me around making snide comments.
    Is hardly an argument, simply disagreeing. It is allowed you know.
    I simply stated the advice of the Food Standards Agency.
    No doubt you’ll want the last word as usual.
    You made out of date comments on varifocals, finally adding your experience was 5yrs ago, don’t feel the need to continue your lack of awareness on every thread.

    Ref FSA, I refer you back to my lowest common denominator comment, clearly it went over your head...I meant HOME COOKS LIKE YOU!!

    ETA, perfection...Spanish hotel restaurant





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    Last edited by Mj2k; 17th January 2021 at 17:12.

  29. #79
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    How about this as a premise? I’m not talking about the make up of the burger but the bowl of dipping gravy. (Found it on a random trawl through Instagram on Jamie Oliver feed).
    Personally I think it has potential....perhaps not with a white tee shirt on though!




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  30. #80
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    Hmmm, it would be a messy treat that is for sure! Love the sandwiches in the US with dipping jus.

    The open cracked wooden board has me cringing though, I despise anything on wood it a micro hell hole.


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  31. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saint-Just View Post
    As a side note, in France when you go to a butcher and ask for mince, you will see that the machine is refrigerated and cleaned between each operation. They cannot mince it in advance.
    You can also choose the cut you want minced, although it is usually wiser to tell your butcher how you’ll cook it and let him choose for you.
    The wife popped into Super U one day (for the benefit of others - it's a supermarket and not a butchers) and asked for some mince that was advertised at around 8e a kilo. The butcher picked up a lump of steak that was at least double the price per kilo, put it through the mincer and charged her at the 8e price

  32. #82
    Grand Master oldoakknives's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mj2k View Post
    You made out of date comments on varifocals, finally adding your experience was 5yrs ago, don’t feel the need to continue your lack of awareness on every thread.

    Ref FSA, I refer you back to my lowest common denominator comment, clearly it went over your head...I meant HOME COOKS LIKE YOU!!

    ETA, perfection...Spanish hotel restaurant





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    It was my experience of varifocals. It's also the experience of many other people so it's not 'out of date'.

    I believe the advice by the FSA is relevant to the cooking of burgers in the home and by professionals. No doubt you have evidence that undercooked burgers are safe to eat. I'd be interested to see it.

    When I had food poisoning from an undercooked burger I lost a stone in a week, and it took some time to recover properly. I was fit and healthy with no known underlying health issues. If one person avoids something similar happening by reading the links I put on my post I'll be happy.
    Started out with nothing. Still have most of it left.

  33. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mj2k View Post
    The open cracked wooden board has me cringing though, I despise anything on wood it a micro hell hole.
    We're not in the BP so I can't say exactly what I'd do to the prat with the plank but it would go in sideways and I wouldn't be too fussed about splintering.

  34. #84
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    Anyway, back to burgers
    I thought the thread would full of great burger recipes..... no members having a pop a teacher other

  35. #85
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    My take on burger cuisson...
    I'll happily (preferably) have mine medium rare anywhere that offers it (or just does it that way) at home or abroad. I trust they have the food safety controls in place.
    I would cook a supermarket burger through (but try not to overcook it).
    I don't often make my own burgers but if the mince came from my local butchers I'd happily have them pink and juicy.

    Without taking this thread too far off topic, Mrs MCH loves tartare (beef, venison, pretty much anything). If it's on the menu, she's having it and she has been known to make her own. I wonder what the FSA think of tartare?

  36. #86
    Quote Originally Posted by Mj2k View Post
    Hmmm, it would be a messy treat that is for sure! Love the sandwiches in the US with dipping jus.

    The open cracked wooden board has me cringing though, I despise anything on wood it a micro hell hole.


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    I always thought that wooden boards were inherently antimicrobial.

  37. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kingstepper View Post
    I always thought that wooden boards were inherently antimicrobial.
    Pretty sure that diminishes with time and wear/usage...don't they need to be cleaned/cured in an oven periodically...

    Here we go, turns out you're right woods good but does need thorough drying

    https://news.ncsu.edu/2014/09/cuttin...s-food-safety/

    Yup that well worn one pictured needs binning.
    Last edited by Passenger; 17th January 2021 at 18:40.

  38. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kingstepper View Post
    I always thought that wooden boards were inherently antimicrobial.
    With cracks like that, there is no end to what they are harbouring deep inside!

  39. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by oldoakknives View Post
    It was my experience of varifocals. It's also the experience of many other people so it's not 'out of date'.

    I believe the advice by the FSA is relevant to the cooking of burgers in the home and by professionals. No doubt you have evidence that undercooked burgers are safe to eat. I'd be interested to see it.

    When I had food poisoning from an undercooked burger I lost a stone in a week, and it took some time to recover properly. I was fit and healthy with no known underlying health issues. If one person avoids something similar happening by reading the links I put on my post I'll be happy.
    Yawn OOK...read further than the initial 'overcook to hell', you might find you learn something and enjoy food more.

    FSA for the 2nd or 3rd time is for the lowest of abilities who cannot read further than headlines....try this - there is no legal requirement as long as HACCP is in place.

    1.4.2 There are approaches which can be used which give burgers the appearance of being less than thoroughly cooked (i.e. they contain pink meat in the middle), but which are equivalent to normal thorough cooking to 70C for ACMSF report on the safe cooking of burgers:
    5A 6-log reduction is equivalent to killing 99.9999% of the bacteria initially present. 8 minutes or 6-log reduction. This includes approaches such as sous-vide cooking of burgers (usually followed by conventional cooking to add colour and texture expected from a burger) and approaches such as “sear and shave”

    MJ2K out, you're spouting the stuff my mother used to, you don't understand the subject matter or the science of meat & frankly I'm bored of you.

  40. #90
    Quote Originally Posted by Mj2k View Post
    With cracks like that, there is no end to what they are harbouring deep inside!
    Obviously harbouring all the delicious years of added flavour ;)
    It's just a matter of time...

  41. #91
    Grand Master oldoakknives's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mj2k View Post
    Yawn OOK...read further than the initial 'overcook to hell', you might find you learn something and enjoy food more.

    I already said I like steak medium rare, not overcooked, so where you get the 'overcook to hell' from I don't know tbh, but I suppose it creates the image you want.

    FSA for the 2nd or 3rd time is for the lowest of abilities who cannot read further than headlines....try this - there is no legal requirement as long as HACCP is in place.

    1.4.2 There are approaches which can be used which give burgers the appearance of being less than thoroughly cooked (i.e. they contain pink meat in the middle), but which are equivalent to normal thorough cooking to 70C for ACMSF report on the safe cooking of burgers:
    5A 6-log reduction is equivalent to killing 99.9999% of the bacteria initially present. 8 minutes or 6-log reduction. This includes approaches such as sous-vide cooking of burgers (usually followed by conventional cooking to add colour and texture expected from a burger) and approaches such as “sear and shave”

    MJ2K out, you're spouting the stuff my mother used to, you don't understand the subject matter or the science of meat & frankly I'm bored of you.

    You can't provide any evidence that it's safe to eat undercooked burgers.

    What you quote above (with no link btw) talks of methods to "cook while giving the appearance of being less than thoroughly cooked" which is not undercooked.

    Basically you're talking a load of rubbish.
    Started out with nothing. Still have most of it left.

  42. #92
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    Why all the excitement about some meat dish that has been chewed for you?
    I know some of you are of an age where dentures are commonplace, but still

    As for tartare, it's best if cut with a knife, not minced. And since it was mentioned in another thread, the best tartares are made from horse meat, which is leaner and sweeter.
    'Against stupidity, the gods themselves struggle in vain' - Schiller.

  43. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saint-Just View Post
    Why all the excitement about some meat dish that has been chewed for you?
    I know some of you are of an age where dentures are commonplace, but still

    As for tartare, it's best if cut with a knife, not minced. And since it was mentioned in another thread, the best tartares are made from horse meat, which is leaner and sweeter.
    Ha ha ha I know! To be honest I just wanted to let people know that it could be iffy if they were undercooked, didn't think it would offend anyone.
    Started out with nothing. Still have most of it left.

  44. #94
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  45. #95
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    This thread is very thin on pictures!!!

    I'm a simple man, burger, bacon, Stilton. If not Stilton, mature cheddar with a strong English mustard. Brioche bun also. All preferably cooked on the BBQ!


    The pic with the blue cheese is Venison burger with Roquefort, also an excellent combo.

    Last edited by SeanST150; 17th January 2021 at 19:40.

  46. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saint-Just View Post
    As for tartare, it's best if cut with a knife, not minced. And since it was mentioned in another thread, the best tartares are made from horse meat, which is leaner and sweeter.
    Well Mrs MCH is Dutch so no issue with a bit of paardenvlees.

  47. #97
    Quote Originally Posted by Omegamanic View Post
    Obviously harbouring all the delicious years of added flavour ;)
    Indeed! When I worked in the microbiology labs at Scottish and Newcastle Breweries in Newcastle in the olden days, we could never get our Theakstons brews to the same standard as they did in the original brewery in Thirsk!

    May have had something to do with us using aluminium fermentation vessels and casks and them using slate vessels and wooden casks that we could never get to standard!

    Great thread and I love a good medium burger.

    I have to have lettuce, Gerkins, Onion and Chillis with a good BBQ sauce on a toasted sour dough bun. Yummy


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  48. #98
    Quote Originally Posted by Mj2k View Post
    With cracks like that, there is no end to what they are harbouring deep inside!
    Well not that one, I meant chopping boards.

  49. #99
    Quote Originally Posted by oldoakknives View Post
    Ha ha ha I know! To be honest I just wanted to let people know that it could be iffy if they were undercooked, didn't think it would offend anyone.
    To be fair, there is a huge difference between eating a well prepared and properly cooked medium cooked burger, compared to an “undercooked” one.
    It's just a matter of time...

  50. #100
    Grand Master oldoakknives's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Omegamanic View Post
    To be fair, there is a huge difference between eating a well prepared and properly cooked medium cooked burger, compared to an “undercooked” one.
    I think you’re probably right. I was referring to undercooked.

    Undercooked can be deadly, I never knew until I experienced it how bad food poisoning can be. I’m not talking a tummy ache and the trots, believe me it can be very scary.

    I don’t like my burgers burnt but I’ll never eat one pink in the middle again.
    Last edited by oldoakknives; 17th January 2021 at 22:09.

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