Reply With Quote^^ This
Did you not see the cars in front of the Mercedes, they were all following each other on that out lap.Originally Posted by thieuster
Truth is Red Bull chose to go out last and misjudged the timings, they had the option of overtaking the Mercedes on that out lap.
^^ This
Don’t they have a “Gentleman’s Agreement” around no overtaking on the out lap? Of course no one would take advantage of that, would they?
No. Drivers often overtake or allow themselves to be overtaken on the out lap in order to get the gap they want. The problem at Hungary, was in part due to the track (it has a lot of corners and is quite short) so finding a “gap” is tricky, and secondly, because the softs were the fastest tyre, care has to be taken on the out lap not to roast them before the qualifying lap.
The FIA however to have rules which requires each driver to complete his outlap within a set time. I think it was 1.30 in Hungary, which all driver achieved.
It’s quite funny all this talk about Mercedes “slowing down the RBR’s because Max actually set his best sector 2 and sector 3 times during his final lap. Something often overlooked by many, but he was still nearly 0.5 sec down on Hamilton and still a 1/10 off Bottas. Checo was over a second slower that Hamilton’s time, which in qualification terms might as well have been a year,
Horner should bd focusing on RBR outright performance in qualifying, rather than trying to point the finger at others. But perhaps he is getting his big book of excuses ready just in case they don’t win the Championship this year,
Whoever does not know how to hit the nail on the head should be asked not to hit it at all.
Friedrich Nietzsche
Last weekend a marshal was killed at an event at Brands Hatch. A petition has been started to have the Paddock tunnel renamed after him.
https://www.petitiononline.uk/name_t...r_robert_foote
Whoever does not know how to hit the nail on the head should be asked not to hit it at all.
Friedrich Nietzsche
Thank god F1 is returning after the drama packed Silverstone and Hungarian GPs and I cannot wait. Plus Spa is my favourite track.
Firstly tyres, (assuming it’s dry) we will see the C2, C3 and C4 compounds. So one softer that what we saw in Silverstone.
Secondly weather. Looking at the forecast it’s looks like we can expect rain on Friday, Saturday and Sunday. Spa in the rain will certainly sort the men from the boys.
Last year it was a Mercedes lock out in Qualifying and in the race, however given the reg changes this year, I doubt that will be repeated. That said Turn 1 is very much like Hungary, so it the wet is could be another accident waiting to happen. A front row starting place becomes even more critical.
It should be another classic.
Whoever does not know how to hit the nail on the head should be asked not to hit it at all.
Friedrich Nietzsche
Can’t wait after all the issues at the last one
If you'll forgive a little F1 and watch-related reverie. The person who first got me into watches (and I still haven't forgiven him for that...) is also an huge F1 fan. Years ago, he showed me a copy of the Swiss Sports commentator and F1 author Jacques Deschenaux's GPGuide, a very thick tome consisting of all the stats from all the Grand Prix since 1950. It's insanely detailed, with much of the data coming from Jacques' own hand-written notes from attending the races.
My Speedmaster atop Jacques' book
This is published each year as a physical book, but only available to the F1 teams and those in the industry. Surprisingly perhaps in these modern days of sports stats, no one (including the F1 governing bodies and teams) had thought to collect and retain these data. But they exist, thanks to Jacques and GPGuide.
Anyhow, my friend and Jacques decided to make GPGuide available electronically. The result was a website (GPguide.com) with all the data, a very clean layout and a complete absence of fluff. I was involved with this website at some point in time, as full disclosure.
The website has long been replaced with an app, iPhone/Android/iPad/MacOS and supports lots of languages. It is always up to date, including recent developments such as Sprints, a News feed with articles I don't see anywhere else, and course maps for every configuration of every track, including data such as start-line offset. Yes, it is that detailed. But when you are comparing performances from year to year, even if the track layout hasn't changed, the start line offset sometimes does...
Main screen today. Note News headlines (click for story), current standings, and next race details including time locally/UTC/your timezone:
Spa records, note start-line offset since 2008:
Previous configurations, change notes, and stats:
Particular race stats:
There's tons more, but you get the idea. I usually open it, catch up on the news, and then frequently get lost down the data rabbit hole.
It is a paid app (as there is continuous ongoing professional development work, the cost of the paid-for news fee, the course map layouts, the hosting, and not least the data updates for each race).
It has no adverts, there are no discussion forums, and no user comments - there are many other sites for this. It's a massive and authoritative historical F1 data store with all links offering "drill down" so you can easily get lost in data for a particular driver, track, manufacturer, era or whatever.
I think it is worth a look if you are deeply into F1. It is just called GPGuide, conceived and run by F1 fans, for F1 fans.
My friend remains still my friend, and is still hugely into both F1 and watches, but I have no involvement nor commercial interest at all with this app. I pay the subscription and like it. Just sharing for info in case anyone is interested.
Last edited by Tokyo Tokei; 26th August 2021 at 04:08.
^^^^^ I’ve just downloaded this for a look. Thank you.
Many thanks for posting. The idea of no comments section is extra appealing 😁If you'll forgive a little F1 and watch-related reverie. The person who first got me into watches (and I still haven't forgiven him for that...) is also an huge F1 fan. Years ago, he showed me a copy of the Swiss Sports commentator and F1 author Jacques Deschenaux's GPGuide, a very thick tome consisting of all the stats from all the Grand Prix since 1950. It's insanely detailed, with much of the data coming from Jacques' own hand-written notes from attending the races.
My Speedmaster atop Jacques' book
This is published each year as a physical book, but only available to the F1 teams and those in the industry. Surprisingly perhaps in these modern days of sports stats, no one (including the F1 governing bodies and teams) had thought to collect and retain these data. But they exist, thanks to Jacques and GPGuide.
Anyhow, my friend and Jacques decided to make GPGuide available electronically. The result was a website (GPguide.com) with all the data, a very clean layout and a complete absence of fluff. I was involved with this website at some point in time, as full disclosure.
The website has long been replaced with an app, iPhone/Android/iPad/MacOS and supports lots of languages. It is always up to date, including recent developments such as Sprints, a News feed with articles I don't see anywhere else, and course maps for every configuration of every track, including data such as start-line offset. Yes, it is that detailed. But when you are comparing performances from year to year, even if the track layout hasn't changed, the start line offset sometimes does...
Main screen today. Note News headlines (click for story), current standings, and next race details including time locally/UTC/your timezone:
Spa records, note start-line offset since 2008:
Previous configurations, change notes, and stats:
Particular race stats:
There's tons more, but you get the idea. I usually open it, catch up on the news, and then frequently get lost down the data rabbit hole.
It is a paid app (as there is continuous ongoing professional development work, the cost of the paid-for news fee, the course map layouts, the hosting, and not least the data updates for each race).
It has no adverts, there are no discussion forums, and no user comments - there are many other sites for this. It's a massive and authoritative historical F1 data store with all links offering "drill down" so you can easily get lost in data for a particular driver, track, manufacturer, era or whatever.
I think it is worth a look if you are deeply into F1. It is just called GPGuide, conceived and run by F1 fans, for F1 fans.
My friend remains still my friend, and is still hugely into both F1 and watches, but I have no involvement nor commercial interest at all with this app. I pay the subscription and like it. Just sharing for info in case anyone is interested.
Whoever does not know how to hit the nail on the head should be asked not to hit it at all.
Friedrich Nietzsche
For those interested Checo has got a contract for the rest of the year and possibly next year (but Horner was a bit vague). Not that I think contracts mean a lot in the World of RBR.
Word on the street seems to be suggesting that Bottas will be replaced by Russell for 2022, but Toto is very keen to find Bottas a parachute. Most likely with Williams or Alfa.
I didn’t see FP1, but FP2 was interesting because Alonso was wearing a visor cam. Watching the footage of him of his eye view of a lap, should prove to any noobs just how difficult it is drive one of these things. Super impressive.
A massive spin by Ocon was trumped by Max and Charles who both had a brush with the wall. New suspension and overtime for the mechanics required
Max topped FP2, by 4/100ths from Bottas and 7/100ths from Hamilton, however Max was running softs and the Mercedes were both running Inters. Checo also on Inters was almost a second off the pace. Not sure what we should read into this because we have no idea of fuel loads or engine modes, but it looks very similar to Hungary performance.
The weather holds the key.
Whoever does not know how to hit the nail on the head should be asked not to hit it at all.
Friedrich Nietzsche
Well that was a damp squib, a wash out, etc. No idea what was in the mind of the FIA to start the race, then stop it, then wait a couple of hours, for the weather to get worse, and then start the race and then stop it again, I suspect money was involved, I.e. the FIA/Liberty didn’t get paid unless the race was completed, Either way a complete joke.
Anywhoo, contrats to Max for winning (his 17th GP win and first at Spa) and for George and Lewis on their podiums. All managed to follow the safety car for 5 laps without crashing, unlike one driver who shall remain nameless.
Onwards to Zandvoort, for hopefully better racing.
Whoever does not know how to hit the nail on the head should be asked not to hit it at all.
Friedrich Nietzsche
Cynical running of the two laps required to declare it a race and not have to refund any money. Still what do you expect from F1 as it is less a sport and more a business now. Lewis did call it out though so fair play to him.
That was shocking!
Race should either have been postponed or cancelled.
Agreed
That is exactly the type of conduct that alienates entire swathes of fans.
Condiitons were, and remained, apalling, do they did the only thing that would lose them the least money, run 2 laps behind the safety car, in order to qualify it as a race.
Although how a 2-lap fixed position procession meets the definition of a race is beyond me.
Even at half points it is a really poor distortion of the championship too.
Apparently fans paid hundreds of Euros each to park in a quagmire, walk several kilometres through mud to get to their allocated seating, sit for three to four hours in cold, wet misery, to watch two laps of a safety car procession, and then be told that absolute farce was a race. They should all get refunds.
It was an absolute farce to run 2 laps behind the safety car knowing full well that there was no chance of releasing everyone to race. Taking a non-partisan view, it was kind of nice that Max could recoup some of his recent losses. Sets up well for Zandvoort, although quali could be even more important there. I’m struggling to see an overtaking opportunity on track.
The fans at Spa were mega! Smiling, waving umbrellas, dancing and munching frites with mayonnaise in the pouring rain. All with smiles on faces. They deserved so much more.
Totally agree, its crazy!
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Agreed on all that.
I’ve driven Zandvoort and Spa it’s a lot narrower. Turn 1 and 11 are drags into braking zones but the rest will need balls of steel to pass.
Not driven since they banked it but maybe a wall of death move is on the cards for some?
Imagine paying to travel to Spa for a GP and getting THAT...
I wondered why the YT highlights were only 3 minutes long - Pretty much full race coverage!
M
Breitling Cosmonaute 809 - What's not to like?
Yes, for sure.
The trouble with that is, if they did, the Spa track would go bankrupt.
So, it’s very unfortunate, but it was never going to happen.
F1 drivers in the 1950s…
Why should it be that F1 takes all the money and the track must hold all the risk for bad weather?
Do you know that the risk lies there, it would seem to be very unfair if it does.
I seem to remember that the circuit has to pay to host the race, and then recoups it's money from ticket sales (and burgers / beer etc.). At least that's how it was in Bernie's day (though he probably wanted a cut of ticket sales as well). The track / race sponsors probably want a certain amount of TV coverage for their money as well, so there's probably still some risk for all involved.
Edit: Some info here: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-m...-idUSKCN1IU1TH
Last edited by hogthrob; 3rd September 2021 at 11:41.
For a bit more on "hosting fees" see this link.
But neither link (as far as I saw) explains where the risk of cancellation lies.
F1 hold a contract for the TV revenue, which is not likley to be affected by rain, unless a whole slew of races are cancelled each season and TV companies cease to bid for the rights.
Meanwhile the Host circuits pay to host it, then get gate revenues and mercantile revenue to offset that.
And if it is all cancelled, they have to refund large proportions of that but may not get their hosting fees back, which F1 still have.
If that is the case it seems vey unfair to me, given they have no control over weather (other than choosing not to race in Wales in February, for instance).
Yeah, they sure don't make em like they used to...F1 drivers in the 1950s…
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Think our friend might not have heard of insurance. However money isn’t the point. The Fans (which are perhaps the most important thing to any sport), paid between 100-500 euro to watch a race, not a parade.
Hopefully the organisers might see sense and at least offer a partial refund or discounted tickets for next year.
My biggest issue however remains the half points rubbish for managing to follow a safety car without crashing.
Whoever does not know how to hit the nail on the head should be asked not to hit it at all.
Friedrich Nietzsche
So on the Netherlands and the return of the iconic if rather dangerous Zandvoort.
I have watched a few laps and although quite short looks like a decent circuit, I especially liked the banked corners, which will make the super fast.
Practice was inconclusive today, however the Ferrari looked good, Mercedes venerable, and Max rather frustrated. Mick S raised an interesting point about the amount of Orange smoke that was polluting the atmosphere, however hopefully the kids will not let them off during the actual race. It would be tragic if the race was red flagged because it becomes to dangerous for the drivers.
Should be a good one.
in other news, Kimi retires. Bottas looks like a shoe in for Alfa and George moves to Mercedes. It wouldn’t surprise me in the slightest if Bottas wasn’t joined by Mick S and we see a return of Alex A. The merry go round is starting to pick up pace.
Whoever does not know how to hit the nail on the head should be asked not to hit it at all.
Friedrich Nietzsche
Toto Wolff wants Nick de Vries in a Mercedes-powered Alfa, not Albon according to Racingnews365.nl' website.
Kimi has COVID and Kubica stepping in.
Alfa is Ferrari’s second team, so no chance of that becoming another Mercedes customer engined car. I doubt very much Toto would even suggested Ito be honest.
As for NdV, I think it’s highly likely he might end up with Williams assuming he doesn’t want to defend his FE title. I hope so because he is a talent, as he demonstrated in F2 and FE. Plus it would give the Dutch a second driver - double Dutch
Whoever does not know how to hit the nail on the head should be asked not to hit it at all.
Friedrich Nietzsche
Wolff doesn't want Albon in the seat as long as he has connections (ties) wit RB.Alfa is Ferrari’s second team, so no chance of that becoming another Mercedes customer engined car. I doubt very much Toto would even suggested Ito be honest.
As for NdV, I think it’s highly likely he might end up with Williams assuming he doesn’t want to defend his FE title. I hope so because he is a talent, as he demonstrated in F2 and FE. Plus it would give the Dutch a second driver - double Dutch
If RedBull are so concerned about Albon why don’t they get him a drive, rather than suggesting it’s Toto is blocking him going to Williams. Which of course assumes Williams actually want him. I’m not sure they do.
Contrats by the way on Max winning yesterday. Well deserved.
Great track, but I am a bit concerned about the apparent lack of positional overtakes within the top 7. It will be interesting whether this remains the case next year with the new regs, but F1 doesn’t need another Monaco type track.
No real standouts for me. I thought Gasly did very well (even if he got lapped) and Checo’s drive to 8th, but honestly he shouldn’t be starting last (but at least he was able to take another engine).
Whoever does not know how to hit the nail on the head should be asked not to hit it at all.
Friedrich Nietzsche
I enjoyed the race - just as with Monaco a load of people moaned about the lack of overtaking, but I always enjoy the strategy battles on that type of track, plus who really wants to watch yet another DRS-enabled series of drive-bys? The changes in height and relentless turns made it dizzying to stick for long with onboard shots.
Interesting to speculate on the cause of the Lando/Dani switch in performance: I doubt it was all down to lack of setup time, maybe the track suited Dani's preferences better.
Merc seem to have lost the advantage they clawed back a couple of races ago, but the speed of Monza should return them (and probably Macca) to more normal service.
Alonso was on storming form yesterday. George’s battle with Stroll was hilarious and summed up the issue with overtaking in current F1. Cars are too big, too grippy, too torquey so there is little chance of sliding up the inside, or having a drag out of corners. I’m not sure that the 2022 regs will change that. We will see. Turn 1 saw some very interesting moves and there was certainly more overtaking on track than I expected.
In other news, Bottas to Alfa. Glad he has a drive for next year and beyond. Who do we think will end up at Merc?
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I've got a feeling Hamilton will quit at the end of the year. I just can't see him going up against George. I seem to remember Hamilton only signed a one year deal last season.In other news, Bottas to Alfa. Glad he has a drive for next year and beyond. Who do we think will end up at Merc?
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He signed a one year deal last year but he signed a multi year deal this year.
I get the sneaky feeling Max is going to win the championship this year robbing Lewis of his chance to have the most outright championships. With the massive regulation changes next year I can see him do at least one more year to get that title. If George beats him next year, he’’ will retire.
You might be right about Mercedes gains, however looking at the bigger picture, Hamilton had very little running time in FP2 (especially on the hard tyres), it was a track that Max had actually driven previously (in a hybrid car) and that Hamilton only missed pole by 3/100ths. So pretty close.
I think Monza might be a better test, however that said the Max’s RBR looks very rapid.
Hamilton knows he is in a fight, so it will be interesting to see how he reacts.
Whoever does not know how to hit the nail on the head should be asked not to hit it at all.
Friedrich Nietzsche
Based on what? We had the rumours that 2020 was going to be his last (once he equaled Schumy’s record) because he only had a 1 year extension. He then signed a 2 year extension so that makes it 2022 at the earliest.
Then we had rumours that Hamilton would block Russell coming to the team because he was “afraid of him” following one race in Bahrain in 2020. Epic fail that one.
The simply fact is that no one (mostly likely including Hamilton) actually knows when he will retire, but what we do know is that WDC’s have a tendency to hang on for as long as possible and even when they quit, like boomerangs, tend to come back. Alonso, Kimi and Micheal for example. The exception is Rosberg (at the moment). Hamilton’s decision will most likely be based on his and the car’s performance. As long as he thinks he can still win, he will race. Partly because it’s the only thing he knows.
Whoever does not know how to hit the nail on the head should be asked not to hit it at all.
Friedrich Nietzsche
Every single season someone comes out with this, in the hope that they're eventually right and can look smart
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Every single season someone comes out with this, in the hope that they're eventually right and can look smart
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
And now the pieces are all in past.
Kimi retires
Bottas goes to Alfa
Russell goes to Mercedes
and finally (which I was surprised at) Albon gets the vacant seat at Williams.
Mixed thoughts on this personally. Whilst I like young Alex and think he a talent, I was disappointed that SvD or NdV didn’t get the seat. The reason for this might have something to do with the $30m RBR are allegedly paying Williams, which then begs the question WHY?
I have two theories, most likely wrong. 1) because having another Dutch driver on the grid might devalue Max’s pull in the Netherland and $30m was a small price to protect the brand, and or 2) RBR are looking to get intel on the Mercedes PU (which of course assumes Alex hasn’t signed some sort of NDA.
All very interesting and hopefully more details will be forthcoming.
Anywhoo, now that the silly season is complete, hopefully we can focus on actual racing and Monza.
Tyres will be C2, C3 and C4. The only difference between numbers is that Max has one less set of Mediums (2) and Hards (1) and compared with Hamilton’s 3 and 2 respectively.
Hopefully Renault, AT, McLaren and most importantly Ferrari can put on a show. Also it will be interesting to see how Russell reacts to knowing his 2022 future is secure.
Last edited by Andyg; 8th September 2021 at 22:38.
Whoever does not know how to hit the nail on the head should be asked not to hit it at all.
Friedrich Nietzsche
We already know. They have only just announced the decision, but from what Toto, George and others have said the decision was made during the summer break. So Spa would have been the first race and we know how well he went in Belgium, even if it wasn't a real race.
Leading to the conclusion that Mercedes may be planning a one stop race (soft followed by hard) whilst Red Bull are looking at two stops (soft, soft, medium or soft, medium, soft-possibly depending on wear).
its funny because I was thinking the exact opposite. RedBull one stopping (Softs to Hard) and Mercedes going Soft to Inters with an option to switch to softs or inters to finish. A bit like they tried last week.
All will be revealed.
The real upside is that the weather looks dry, so the need for safety cars is reduced, providing everyone is sensible. A possible danger zone will be around the Haas drivers who clearly having a bit of a tiff.
Whoever does not know how to hit the nail on the head should be asked not to hit it at all.
Friedrich Nietzsche
My thinking was that MV will have two more sets of sifts than LH and with only one set of hards, he can’t do a long run on hards in free practice and have a set for the race.
Fair point, however I think Max only had 2 sets of Hards in the last race as well. He might need an extra set of softs for qualifying given that the Mercs might run Inters in Q1 (and the start of Q2). I imagine both will start on Softs, although Merc might throw a wild card, given the circuit, and sacrifice grid positions and start on Inters - might be worth a punt. Actually that might be a good strategy for Bottas.
Gosh, who would be an F1 strategist.
Whoever does not know how to hit the nail on the head should be asked not to hit it at all.
Friedrich Nietzsche
Well the Mercs did play a wild card, but started on Hards before switching to Inters, not that it made any difference.
As for the race, very exciting and great to see the McLarend performing so well so contrats to Danny and Lando for seeing it home.
A great drive from Bottas - last to 3rd shouldn’t be sniffed at, but once again he seem to run out something once he got stuck behind Checo.
As for Checo, a good drive, however I think he got lucky only getting only 1 5 second penalty during the race. He should have got one earlier iIMHO for passing off track and then refusing to give back the place.
Regarding Hamilton and Max, I am sure everyone will have a view, however before getting into this I think people need to ask themselves one question. Where exactly was Max just before the impact? Correct he was off track, hence he hit the curbs.
IMHO Max knew exactly what he was doing, hence his pithy comment “that’s what you get if you don’t leave me space” - what a charmer. It also explains his rapid departure from the crash scene, without a backward glance to check to see if Hamilton was alright (despite having parked his car on his head). As for Hamilton leaving space, where exactly did Max expect him to go, all the space available was on the run off area and the only person with access to that was Max. Alas I imagine the FIA will put down as a racing incident.and this nonsense will continue on to the next race - especially as Max has a WDC lead.
Whoever does not know how to hit the nail on the head should be asked not to hit it at all.
Friedrich Nietzsche
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