Reply With QuoteYou can substantiate both statements?Originally Posted by gortz
I had no axe to grind in the Hamilton/Verstappen battle, but I wasn't sad to see Toto react so well to defeat...
Hopefully they will drop the protest, it's not a good look.
M
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Breitling Cosmonaute 809 - What's not to like?
You can substantiate both statements?
The rumour going around that Perez was under fuelled is an interesting one.
Has a reason for his retirement been made public yet?
Wouldn’t he have just harvested his batteries to a maximum before Hamilton got on his tail.
I think the point being that running lighter would mean he would be faster, when ‘required’.
Hamilton won't be in F1 after this current contract.
Russel will want to be going for the title he's 24 next year and is in a competitive car.
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https://www.lawgazette.co.uk/obiter/...110931.article
Next year is a whole new ball game with the changing regulations. With the return of ground force aero and larger wheels, it’s the biggest change in decades.
Until winter testing gets underway, we simply do not know.
I don’t care who wins next year, as long as the Red Bullies produce a mid pack dog.
I'm not a f1 fan but thought I would watch the race.
At the end I found it interesting to watch the faces of the MV team members who appeared on screen. To me it looked as if it was difficult for them to muster up any genuine honest joy at winning.
Last edited by johny; 13th December 2021 at 23:41.
I don’t think Red Bull will be as competitive next year, as they have sunk so much effort into this year’s car, unlike Mercedes. So, yes, I definitely think Mercedes will be much stronger next year.
An article in a 'legal' rag isn't substantiation - it's just more hearsay.
I really am sorry that I’m not a Hamilton fan and I would go on to say that his on and off grid behaviour/comments from the very start of his F1 career have been very irritating.
However after Sundays performance, the result of the race is completely wrong.
Whilst at times his radio and general communications are that of spoilt bratt. F1 really needs to take a good look at itself as I’m questioning why am I paying my monthly subscription to Sky for a sport that clearly has so many grey areas and has allowed the current situation to arise.
ToTo should step back and focus on next year. Hamilton I suspect now has something to prove and will be back stronger than ever assuming he has the car behind him.
I also suspect Hamilton’s fan base has increased, given this latest saga.
As others have said, Max is ruthless and at times a little kamikaze with some manoeuvres, but so have other F1 drivers in past which adds to the drama.
Hopefully I’ll renew my subs but am really struggling as I’ve this bitter taste in my mouth that I need to get rid of first.
B
If F1 is to restore it's reputation IMHO they could do the following:
1) Pubically admit that rules were broken by the Race Director
2) Sack Masi
3) State that neither driver was at fault and as such, the World Championship is awarded to both drivers equally.
The official FIA trophy presentation is on Thursday this week, so it woudl put it all to bed rather than drag it through the courts. It's also the end of Jean Todt's reign so it woudl be a nice final act for him to award Hamil;ton the Joint Trophy and given he has the record commissioning a duplicate that he can keep forever rather than hand to next years Champion would be a nice touch.
Yes, the end was a bit of a farce and Hamilton deserved the win, but...
Perez played the team-mate perfectly - Does anyone REALLY think that a Mercedes driver (other than one on the way to another team...) wouldn't have tried to hold up Verstappen in the same way?
In fact, they were racing for position, Perez wasn't being lapped. Remind me, don't F1 drivers get paid a fortune to RACE other cars? Not just move over to let their competitors past?
Mercedes messed up. At least twice, Hamilton questioned their decision to leave him out on old tyres. He was a sitting duck if a pace car came about near the end.
Mercedes got it wrong and then gambled the pace car would be out to the end of the race. If it'd happened 10 laps earlier, Hamilton would still have been a sitting duck and we would be saying how Mercedes screwed up his chances, which, in reality, is what happened and he knew it, which is part, I'm sure, of why he was so magnanimous to Max (unlike the childish tantrums of Herr Wolf).
I don't get all the anti-RBR stuff on here.
Firstly Hamilton ran off the track to avoid a collision with Verstappen (a clean enough pass, I thought, although it did leave Hamilton with nowhere to go really, he had to brake or drive off the track, he chose the latter), but didn't do the right thing and let Max back past. In a few laps, he'd have breezed past the Red Bull anyway, so carrying on without giving back the place was a gamble and the stewards inconsistent in not making him do so.
Secondly, RBR didn't make the decision to go racing with a lap to go, the stewards did. I'm sure they may have pressured for it to do so, same as Mercedes pressured against, but they didn't do anything wrong here.
So, overall, I think Hamilton was unlucky that Latifi crashed when he did, but Mercedes were responsible for him doing the last few laps on knackered, hard tyres, not the stewards, Verstappen or Red Bull.
They gambled and made the wrong choice.
Suggesting that Hamilton should be gifted a 'joint-World Champion status' is insulting to both him and Verstappen. If we start doing that, how about giving Massa joint World Champion status the year Hamilton won his first after Hamilton's mate Glock slowed down to gift him the extra points he needed to win? Massa led most of the race (and actually won it!), surely he should be champion?
M
Breitling Cosmonaute 809 - What's not to like?
This has been gone over ad infinitum.Yes, the end was a bit of a farce and Hamilton deserved the win, but...
Perez played the team-mate perfectly - Does anyone REALLY think that a Mercedes driver (other than one on the way to another team...) wouldn't have tried to hold up Verstappen in the same way?
In fact, they were racing for position, Perez wasn't being lapped. Remind me, don't F1 drivers get paid a fortune to RACE other cars? Not just move over to let their competitors past?
Mercedes messed up. At least twice, Hamilton questioned their decision to leave him out on old tyres. He was a sitting duck if a pace car came about near the end.
Mercedes got it wrong and then gambled the pace car would be out to the end of the race. If it'd happened 10 laps earlier, Hamilton would still have been a sitting duck and we would be saying how Mercedes screwed up his chances, which, in reality, is what happened and he knew it, which is part, I'm sure, of why he was so magnanimous to Max (unlike the childish tantrums of Herr Wolf).
I don't get all the anti-RBR stuff on here.
Firstly Hamilton ran off the track to avoid a collision with Verstappen (a clean enough pass, I thought, although it did leave Hamilton with nowhere to go really, he had to brake or drive off the track, he chose the latter), but didn't do the right thing and let Max back past. In a few laps, he'd have breezed past the Red Bull anyway, so carrying on without giving back the place was a gamble and the stewards inconsistent in not making him do so.
Secondly, RBR didn't make the decision to go racing with a lap to go, the stewards did. I'm sure they may have pressured for it to do so, same as Mercedes pressured against, but they didn't do anything wrong here.
So, overall, I think Hamilton was unlucky that Latifi crashed when he did, but Mercedes were responsible for him doing the last few laps on knackered, hard tyres, not the stewards, Verstappen or Red Bull.
They gambled and made the wrong choice.
Suggesting that Hamilton should be gifted a 'joint-World Champion status' is insulting to both him and Verstappen. If we start doing that, how about giving Massa joint World Champion status the year Hamilton won his first after Hamilton's mate Glock slowed down to gift him the extra points he needed to win? Massa led most of the race (and actually won it!), surely he should be champion?
M
Mercedes were stuck between a rock and a hard place. They made the only logical choice they could knowing how “robustly” Max defends.
Had they pitted for tyres, they would have lost track position, Red Bull didn’t have that issue as they were a secure second. Max was losing that race so they had nothing to lose.
If Lewis had pitted he would have then had to overtake Max to gain the lead and let’s just think back to Brazil and Saudi shall we. Twice Max forced Lewis off the road and twice he got away with it. Mercedes simply could not take that chance.
Fair enough, I understand their argument, but Hamilton was doubtful about the strategy, too. He questioned it at least twice.
It seems the team doubted his ability to get back ahead of Verstappen, which seems odd. I'm pretty sure he would have, such was his speed during the race, if they'd pitted him soon enough.
It was a gamble, they got it wrong, it happens.
Sorry, Hamilton-fanbois, but your boy can't always be the champion.
He probably will be again in 2022, so stop the Totoeseque whining (something Hamilton has impressed me with by avoiding) and be happy it was an exciting F1 season for a change instead of a dull series of processions for the Silver Arrows.
M
Last edited by snowman; 14th December 2021 at 12:06.
Breitling Cosmonaute 809 - What's not to like?
So basically, what you're saying is that Mercedes lacked the guts to send Hamilton chasing with a faster car because there was a ris? I'm not a fan of LH, but he's an epic driver who's always focussed on winning. This strategy of 'we can't take the chance' is not in his book, I guess.f Lewis had pitted he would have then had to overtake Max to gain the lead and let’s just think back to Brazil and Saudi shall we. Twice Max forced Lewis off the road and twice he got away with it. Mercedes simply could not take that chance.
A detail, highlighted during a Dutch F1 talkshow last night: Perez managed to defend against LH and didn't finish. He didn't have a signal on his dash that there was something wrong, he said on the radio. The idea during the talkshow was that his engine had some extra hp during the race but that there was an uncertainty if it would last until the end. A DNF during the race + SC on the track would have looked bad for RB (as in: staged). In fact the hold-up by Perez for P1 was enough to make it impossible for LH to get a bigger gap between him and MV.
Later during the race, there was a call on the radio: the Mercedes engineer was asking what tyre he would prefer would there be a SC. Ham replied that he had no preference. Was it a communication failure where the crew 'heard' that he would like to stay on the white tyre?
Dutch media (Telegraaf) mentions that there's a lot of activity in the Daimler-Benz boardroom. For years they only invested 1/3 of the total costs with 100% exposure (Team Mercedes). That was a good deal. But M-B's media analysts have seen the YT footage from all over the world with people cheering for MV. And they've read the newspapers who're all -apart from the British- are in favour of MV. An appeal will be regarded as 'sour grapes' by potential buyers all over the world and it can have an influence on their sales. Everybody who works/has worked with or for a big multinational knows that sales numbers are holiest of the holy.
I thought the whisper was that Perez had not been fuelled to reach the end of the race, so had to retire a perfectly good car because he wasn't going to make it.
The theory was that he was sent out to do whatever was needed to help Max for about 2/3 of the race, light enough to make a performace difference for that period.
The whole thing stinks for Lewis, he has my sympathy.
Masi clearly wanted to have the finale of the season raced, not finished under a safety car, and he cut corners to engineer that situation.
Lewis and his team did nothing wrong, he was in the faster car and they made the only decisions that they could. But Masi's decisions made them sitting ducks for Max on new tyres, with only a proportion of the lapped runners sent through.
Stinks, and I feel Masi will not be in post next season, because it looked awful.
Autosport.com talks about the risk that Perez' engine would 'expire'.
That 'Let's share the championship' is never going to happen. Simply because that's not in the rulebook. There's always a #1 and #2. I'm sorry to say that this is British 'wishful thinking'. (I lack more friendly, nicer words for it). And if the championship was to be divided, I'm sure that RB would go to court with that as well. And this will become 'leapfrogging before a judge' all over and over again.
RB doesn't sell cars. I sells an unhealthy drink. They will not sell one can less when they're in court over this. Mercedes will get a bad reputation and that's what counts. Ratcliffe will keep quiet, he has other interests: his main company, Grenadier, Ineos sailing, Ineos cycling etc. Only TW has an interest in this. And he walks on thin ice with his reputation: tantrums, breaking headsets etc.
The only two in Team Mercedes who've understood how to act are Lewis and his father: that was a class act.
Last edited by thieuster; 14th December 2021 at 13:43.
100%
When you look long into an abyss, the abyss looks long into you.........
Just a friendly comment from me, but this ‘only the brits’ support LH commentary is a bit insulting for a couple of reasons.
First is, it’s not true.
Second, it seems to imply that supporting ‘your guy’ is somehow wrong, something that the Dutch should know is perfectly normal.
People’s beef is with the FIA and Masi, nobody is saying MV did anything wrong he just raced the race in front of him, same as LH.
I’ve noticed with a lot of European colleagues, particularly since the B word happened, that they’re inadvertently (presumably) demonising anything British including supporting one of our own.
It might be Christmas but there’s no need for the Pantomime.
I take a passing interest in F1, v. disappointed that this year’s title was decided in such controversial circumstances. I would've preferred a Hamilton win and I think he's been either hard done by or unlucky, depending how you view it. Max took his chance, huge credit to him for being in a position to win the championship in the final race despite some questionable driving over the season.
Mercedes should drop their protests and accept the result. What’s done is done, to change the outcome would be v. unfair on Max, let him enjoy his victory even though he knows the gods smiled on him at the end of this last race!
Luck plays its part in sport, but you’ve got to be the position to benefit from a stroke of good fortune.
In watch talk
Masi is a rolex AD
Lewis is you
Max is the ADs friend
You've waited on the list for ages but when you go to collect, you see Max walk out with your watch.
Max did nothing wrong. Masi controls who gets the prize. ( In this case rolex)
Back onto F1
"In 2020, there was a safety-car period during the Eifel Grand Prix at the Nurburgring. Both Hamilton and Verstappen complained it had been unnecessarily long.
Masi was asked about this after the race. He said: "There's a requirement in the sporting regulations to wave all the lapped cars past."
In 2021 Masi changed the rules, Masi won't be around next year.
He should step down now so Max doesn't have to worry about the British editing his Wikipedia page daily....
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Why didn't Mercedes get on the radio to Bottas and tell him to 'put it in the wall'? Race would have finished under the safety car. Problem solved.
I also think Masi telling the teams that there would be no over taking to resume track position post crash influenced Mercedes decision not to change Lewis's tyres.
In doing so, he effectively gave Mercedes the ok that there was no need to change Hamilton's tyres.
Unfortunately for Mercedes, Masi then reversed this decision and created a new rule, allowing certain cars to resume track position which given the new rubber Verstappen was on, gifted him the win.
Neither Hamilton nor Verstappen did anything wrong.
Did the teams lobby Masi or was the decision reversed for another reason, hopefully we will all find out at some point.
Have I ever seen this changing of decision and part implementation of the rules before in all my years of watching motorsport?
No never.
I feel sorry for both drivers and for the sport in general, as there clearly isn't a good outcome to this situation....
Last edited by tuscanracer; 14th December 2021 at 16:50.
Up to the point where it’s reasonable to assume that everything will go according to the book (from now on…).Were you being deliberately ironic, Menno?
All parties involved had their say about the interpretation of the rules this year. And it came to a high (or low from another perspective) on Sunday. That ‘freestyling’ is not going to happen whe they have now ample time to think things over.
Perez was a significant ally to Max on Sunday and showed great skill, keeping the correct side of "the line". Bottas on the other hand probably couldn't have even stuffed it in the wall if you asked him to, it was another one of "those" days
If Piquet Jr could do it, I am sure Bottas would have managed it too.
'Against stupidity, the gods themselves struggle in vain' - Schiller.
Because Mercedes haven't got the right personnel in their team to make decisions like this, they basically can't think on their feet, unless it's in one of their algorithms or worked out via the factory by somebody sat behind a laptop they really are lost, I'm damn sure Red Bull would have thought about it, and had the right driver to do it, yes Perez was brilliant at keeping Hamilton behind him in order for Max to catch up but Hamilton just pulled away again, but he was a team player.
Bottas on the other hand, was he driving a different car to Hamilton?
I still maintain Hamilton was robbed by a Race Director that basically fuc*ed up, hopefully it will never happen again and they can get on next season without the interference from both, the team principles, and, a headline grabbing RD.
Regardless of what the rules may state in the details they also state the race director can act upon his discretion which is what he did here.
The point of getting lapped cars out of the way is so that they don’t interfere with the race. Those that may have interfered with the only race left were moved. No issue there.
Comes back to MB not being brave enough to pit. Snowman post above spot on IMO.
Yes, the RD can act upon his discretion, but he changed his mind about allowing cars to "unlap" themselves, he also new the different tyres the 2 main cars were on, he also had Red Bull screaming down his earpiece about allowing them to race, all this after Hamilton had established a 14 second lead with 5 laps to go.
What would have happened if Hamilton had pitted and then the RD had decided to leave the order as it was, or even to allow it to finish under the safety car.
There are far too many variables, and far too much interference regarding the RD and stewards decisions, it lacks consistency, but then again that would be boring and probably lose audience figures, not good for the owners.
Spot on - anyone trying to claim Mercedes brought this on themselves clearly does not follow F1, Masi payed god with the result and was in a position to determine who won whatever choice Mercedes made at the end.
That’s not quite true; had all the lapped cars been allowed to pass then MV would have had a fast car right behind him to potentially defend from instead of his only focus bring them car in front.
Masi’s decision making was in every way, wrong. He needs to go.
So, the consensus is that the Race Director is in the pay of Red Bull, right?
Maybe he just had a bad experience with his local Mercedes dealer?
It was poor decision-making, for sure, but we'll be on the moon landings being faked next...
Mercedes didn't 'bring this on themselves', but they didn't cover all the bases. If Latifi hadn't crashed or the pace car had just trundled around to the end, they'd have been fine, but they worried too much about track position earlier on and didn't give Hamilton the credit for his pace or ability on the day. They were overly cautious and the situation caught them out.
Hamilton TWICE (at least) radioed the team asking why he wasn't coming in for new tyres, once long before the safety car incident for Latifi.
If he'd had new tyres earlier, he'd easily have caught Verstappen up and been in front on fresher (if not brand new) tyres and probably able to hold the lead.
As it was, he stood no chance if the race was restarted, whether there was 1 or 5 laps to go.
Basically, the argument seems to be that once a safety car came out, the race should have been given to Hamilton and Mercedes. Of course the race could have been red-flagged and declared at that point, but, aside from pleasing those who only want to see Hamilton win all the time, would that have been a satisfactory season finale either?
The team DID make an error of judgement. It was too late once Latifi crashed, but not earlier on, when Hamilton asked why he wasn't coming in for new tyres.
MAYBE he wouldn't have won if he did, as it is he definitely DIDN'T win.
Should Masi go? Probably, it was pretty poor decision-making as it has been on a number of occasions this season. Whether he will or not, is another matter, being held accountable for dreadful decisions isn't something very popular these days...
M
Last edited by snowman; 15th December 2021 at 10:37.
Breitling Cosmonaute 809 - What's not to like?
No probably about it Masi should go.
Exlude the last race he's been poor all season.
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Paul Harris QC (Centre) leaving the stewards office.
I haven’t read anywhere that Masi is in Red Bulls pocket, where have you dragged this from?
It’s not the fact that Lewis was robbed of an 8th title that bothers me, Lewis is actually pretty far down my order of favourite drivers. It’s what Masi did that bothers me and it would bother me if it were two completely different drivers racing and it was the first race of the season.
Tell me this, why didn’t he let the cars through that were between Max and Carlos? After all, Carlos was in 3rd place, why wasn’t he given the option to race.
This is bigger than Lewis V Max, this was an appalling decision for the sport.
Considering a lot of your posts in the F1 threads I don’t believe you when you say the driver is irrelevant. And I believe you cannot dismiss the fact it was the last lap(s) of the season. Just as you cannot dismiss the fact that the 2 leading drivers were tied on points. Everything (everyone) else was secondary for all spectators across the world. In my mind, this was what prompted his very questionable decision, rather than a bias towards RBR, or a way to give a 2 fingers salute to Toto because he was fed up with him.
I think once people here cool down this season will go down as one of the most captivating ones and I am reasonably confident that there will be more subscribers to F1 next year than this one. And the same would have happened if LH had remained in front.
'Against stupidity, the gods themselves struggle in vain' - Schiller.
Whether it's him or not, I didn't question whether he happened to be there; but what you haven't established is that he was there in his capacity as a QC specifically and only to assist with any challenge that might be raised, rather than as one of the many guests of Mercedes/the team.
edit - that said, if he was there for that purpose I think that says more about the state of F1 and its regs than the Mercedes team or Toto.
Last edited by Stanford; 15th December 2021 at 13:15.
I doubt he'd have been invited to the post race meeting with RBR and Michael Masi if he was merely a hospitality guest of Mercedes.
Masi quoted at the German GP in October - “There’s a requirement in the sporting regulations to wave all the lapped cars passed,”
https://www.planetf1.com/news/michae...el-safety-car/
I don’t see the point in watching F1 while he remains the RD, he’s too unpredictable and inconsistent.
From the suggestion that whatever Mercedes did, he'd make the choice to let Red Bull win.
Obviously, I have no idea - I would GUESS that he was desperate to end the race and the season as a race, not a pace car procession.
I agree it was a poor, muddled decision and that his judgement is so in question that I doubt he should continue in the role.
None of that, though, changes that Verstappen won the race and the championship as it was presented.
No punting Hamilton off and winning by default a la Schumacher or Prost.
I still think that Mercedes hampered Hamilton's chances as it would seem, from the radio calls, did he...
M
Breitling Cosmonaute 809 - What's not to like?
Believe what you like, you are wrong. I know what I think. And for the record I’d love to see Mclaren do a Brawn and beat them all next year.
For the record though, I’m British, and as a British person I support Lewis over Max, if you feel that’s wrong, that’s your choice.
First and foremost though, I’m an F1 fan which is why despite my favoured team doing absolutely crap for a number of years, I still followed the sport.
So yes, I stand by what I said. I don’t care who the two protagonists may have been, Masi’s decision was absolutely wrong.
Arise, Sir Lewis!
Totally deserving of this highest accolade.
If you are applying the 'my country right or wrong' principle then I think you not only wrong but rather blinkered. It is possible as a Brit to see the advantages of having someone other than the usual suspect win the drivers Championship if only for keeping it interesting. It was boring when Schumacher won everything and it has been likewise in the past few years so hoorah for variety I say.
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