Dog on dog aggression

[Chinnock]

Having worked and trained with gundogs previously, the last 6 years has been pure pet owner rather than working dog, however I am now experiencing a vast shift in dog behaviour, especially these past 2 months with lockdowns.

Have 2 lovely male labradors, Buster, fox red, 6yrs, Bisto, Chocolate, 4yrs. Both were neutered 2 years ago as I was initially planning on breeding from Buster. Did experience some aggression towards them both prior to getting them done, but this was very rare and brief with other dominant dogs. Puppy socialised, trained, walk to heel etc, had no issues before. Very sociable and love to play with people and other dogs. Always walk them on the same field since pups and very sociable to 99% of other dogs, so just put down the rare altercations as one offs.

Fast forward to now and suddenly my dogs have become the aggressors. This has been very unexpected and I couldn't work out why, until now and the penny has finally dropped. Having researched further this situation is extremely common, yet in all my years as a dog owner I never really noticed / experienced it.

My boys go absolutely mental towards any intact "young" male dog, which they will attack. It looks and sounds horrendous, but to be honest is lots of noise and top of neck dominance as no physical damage occurs, just appear to be putting the poor fella in his place!

This has now occurred twice and on both occasions the poor dog has coming running straight to my 2 boys completely unexpected, out of nowhere. Having read more the strong smell of testosterone from the young male apparently can get many neutered dogs agitated / threatened and in North America many dog parks ban intact males for this very reason.

I'm guessing with an influx of new dog owners thanks to Lockdowns and the change in not getting them neutered, my care free days of walking appear to be over. Obviously now that I have worked out what's happening and why, vigilance and putting on lead when strange dogs appear is responsibly done, I'm just gutted. I've always field walked / run them with other dogs every day, but will have to begin incorporating more pavement walking to hopefully correct and desensitise with other intact dogs.

Clearly my boys are now the aggressors, and it's my responsibility to ensure other dogs don't experience the same situation, regardless of the fact there is no physical harm, but clearly shaken up owners. The shift has been a bolt out the blue and guess my walking bubble these many years has finally been burst!

Anyone else experienced this? Any recommendations or am I on a hiding to nothing?

[PreacherCain]

Having worked and trained with gundogs previously, the last 6 years has been pure pet owner rather than working dog, however I am now experiencing a vast shift in dog behaviour, especially these past 2 months with lockdowns.

Have 2 lovely male labradors, Buster, fox red, 6yrs, Bisto, Chocolate, 4yrs. Both were neutered 2 years ago as I was initially planning on breeding from Buster. Did experience some aggression towards them both prior to getting them done, but this was very rare and brief with other dominant dogs. Puppy socialised, trained, walk to heel etc, had no issues before. Very sociable and love to play with people and other dogs. Always walk them on the same field since pups and very sociable to 99% of other dogs, so just put down the rare altercations as one offs.

Fast forward to now and suddenly my dogs have become the aggressors. This has been very unexpected and I couldn't work out why, until now and the penny has finally dropped. Having researched further this situation is extremely common, yet in all my years as a dog owner I never really noticed / experienced it.

My boys go absolutely mental towards any intact "young" male dog, which they will attack. It looks and sounds horrendous, but to be honest is lots of noise and top of neck dominance as no physical damage occurs, just appear to be putting the poor fella in his place!

This has now occurred twice and on both occasions the poor dog has coming running straight to my 2 boys completely unexpected, out of nowhere. Having read more the strong smell of testosterone from the young male apparently can get many neutered dogs agitated / threatened and in North America many dog parks ban intact males for this very reason.

I'm guessing with an influx of new dog owners thanks to Lockdowns and the change in not getting them neutered, my care free days of walking appear to be over. Obviously now that I have worked out what's happening and why, vigilance and putting on lead when strange dogs appear is responsibly done, I'm just gutted. I've always field walked / run them with other dogs every day, but will have to begin incorporating more pavement walking to hopefully correct and desensitise with other intact dogs.

Clearly my boys are now the aggressors, and it's my responsibility to ensure other dogs don't experience the same situation, regardless of the fact there is no physical harm, but clearly shaken up owners. The shift has been a bolt out the blue and guess my walking bubble these many years has finally been burst!

Anyone else experienced this? Any recommendations or am I on a hiding to nothing?

I haven't noticed any thematic change in particular - here in London the main recent issue I've seen is a larger number of (poorly socialised?) puppies and youngsters which bounce up and get in my dogs' faces, and occasionally overstep the line and get snarked at for doing so. Our dogs (both whippets) are generally very puppy-tolerant so it's been rare so far, usually persistent ear-nipping will get a reaction though, generally a "back in your box" disciplinary. Looks and sounds worse than it is, but so far I've not had any issues with owners. That is probably just a matter of time, though. :(

The one issue we've got which bears some relationship with what you describe is Eric (neutered, male, 3-year-old), who has a tendency to get very shouty and excited at any Staffy he sees, but only when he's on lead! Off lead he's completely happy to interact with them, run with them, etc - but on lead he clearly feels back-footed and defensive. It's most odd, highly breed-specific and I've no idea how to fix it.

[RustyBin5]

Unless you want somebody reporting your dogs (regardless of whether the other dog was on a lead), I suggest strongly you use muzzles to avoid any “accidents”. Last thing you want is a largely unfair destruction order causing devastation or heartache.

[Saint-Just]

I must confess it is the first time I hear of this.
Neutering is usually recommended precisely to lower the dominance and aggression in male dogs. You probably did it a bit too late for Buster for this to work to its full extent, but still. I am sorry if I am teaching grandma the proverbial but did you notice the tail of the incoming dog? If Buster was dominant before, he will still be now and a dog coming to him displaying a raised tail will represent a challenge; the lack of testosterone smell may reassure the other dog, whereas the fact that yours are in a small pack is also reassurance for them...

It might be interesting to start walking them separately for a while. Twice the exercise for you, significantly less for them but it needs addressing and the muzzle is always a bit hard, to the owner at least.

[julian2002]

It always makes me feel uncomfortable when I'm out walking and encounter a dog that is not on a lead. I am expected to trust that the owner (often distracted by their phone or another walker) is able to control their dog at a distance if it becomes agitated or aggressive.

I understand that dogs need to walk and be able to run and play but do heartily feel that when in areas that they may encounter unknown people or other animals they should be muzzled and on a lead to prevent incidents.

I realize that this may unnecessarily penalize responsible dog owners but given the lockdown explosion in pet ownership I'd rather be safe than sorry for my own as well as the dogs sake.

Full disclosure: I'm definitely not a dog person, I had a few bad experiences when younger and the smell of dog makes me heave. I am not nervous around them though as I've learned that this elicits a negative response more often than not. I harbor no ill will towards them, but one will never grace my home as a pet.

[Chinnock]

Unless you want somebody reporting your dogs (regardless of whether the other dog was on a lead), I suggest strongly you use muzzles to avoid any “accidents”. Last thing you want is a largely unfair destruction order causing devastation or heartache.

This has crossed my mind.

I must confess it is the first time I hear of this.
Neutering is usually recommended precisely to lower the dominance and aggression in male dogs. You probably did it a bit too late for Buster for this to work to its full extent, but still. I am sorry if I am teaching grandma the proverbial but did you notice the tail of the incoming dog? If Buster was dominant before, he will still be now and a dog coming to him displaying a raised tail will represent a challenge; the lack of testosterone smell may reassure the other dog, whereas the fact that yours are in a small pack is also reassurance for them...

It might be interesting to start walking them separately for a while. Twice the exercise for you, significantly less for them but it needs addressing and the muzzle is always a bit hard, to the owner at least.

Both incidents were other dog "tail up" charging straight in. Guess it was perceived threat or because they were young males being put in their place? Either way not great.

You're right about Buster, possibly a bit late although never really had any major issues. Guess I've been in a "walking bubble" these past 6 years without realising it, and only now having to deal with a radical change in new dog owners, walking locations etc etc.

Definitely plan on more 1 to 1 lead walking / jogging and we clearly need to change our routine and create better opportunities to correct in a controlled (lead) environment. Gutted nevertheless as nothing better than walking over open fields playing with other dogs without issue.

[Saint-Just]

Definitely plan on more 1 to 1 lead walking / jogging and we clearly need to change our routine and create better opportunities to correct in a controlled (lead) environment. Gutted nevertheless as nothing better than walking over open fields playing with other dogs without issue.

Many people have dogs now that they didn't before the lockdown, and many of those have no experience of dog ownership; puppy classes did not happen, so many young dogs will be poorly socialised. There is no one to blame, it is what it is.
A male dog should not display aggression against an immature dog, so by all means make them meet as many new dogs (especially the younger ones) as you can in your neighbourhood. The fewer dogs unknown to them there are, the less problematic walking them will be.

Also, remember that a lead often makes the dog more aggressive. Talking about squaring circles...

[JonRA]

I've got a highly excitable 6 year old staffie/lab cross. She's not aggressive and loves people and dogs. But she is so boisterous that when she was younger she used to get in other dogs' faces and was bitten three times and told off numerous times as well. This was coupled with zero recall when she got a better offer than coming back to me (ie any other person or dog within 100 metres). This was despite loads of training and input from three dog behaviorists over a couple of years. Clearly I failed to train her properly but in my defence she is not a particularly bidable dog.

The bottom line though is that she is never off a lead nowadays. We live by fields so she has long country walks on a flexi lead and a garden to run round in. Walks are more about sniffing than anything else. Bizarrely she only likes walking before dawn so we rarely encounter other people and dogs. It saddens me that she doesn't enjoy running free with other dogs but she is otherwise healthy and seems happy (officially our vet's 'Happiest Dog' - though that's really because of her excitability and love of people).

[oldoakknives]

Having worked and trained with gundogs previously, the last 6 years has been pure pet owner rather than working dog, however I am now experiencing a vast shift in dog behaviour, especially these past 2 months with lockdowns.

Have 2 lovely male labradors, Buster, fox red, 6yrs, Bisto, Chocolate, 4yrs. Both were neutered 2 years ago as I was initially planning on breeding from Buster. Did experience some aggression towards them both prior to getting them done, but this was very rare and brief with other dominant dogs. Puppy socialised, trained, walk to heel etc, had no issues before. Very sociable and love to play with people and other dogs. Always walk them on the same field since pups and very sociable to 99% of other dogs, so just put down the rare altercations as one offs.

Fast forward to now and suddenly my dogs have become the aggressors. This has been very unexpected and I couldn't work out why, until now and the penny has finally dropped. Having researched further this situation is extremely common, yet in all my years as a dog owner I never really noticed / experienced it.

My boys go absolutely mental towards any intact "young" male dog, which they will attack. It looks and sounds horrendous, but to be honest is lots of noise and top of neck dominance as no physical damage occurs, just appear to be putting the poor fella in his place!

This has now occurred twice and on both occasions the poor dog has coming running straight to my 2 boys completely unexpected, out of nowhere. Having read more the strong smell of testosterone from the young male apparently can get many neutered dogs agitated / threatened and in North America many dog parks ban intact males for this very reason.

I'm guessing with an influx of new dog owners thanks to Lockdowns and the change in not getting them neutered, my care free days of walking appear to be over. Obviously now that I have worked out what's happening and why, vigilance and putting on lead when strange dogs appear is responsibly done, I'm just gutted. I've always field walked / run them with other dogs every day, but will have to begin incorporating more pavement walking to hopefully correct and desensitise with other intact dogs.

Clearly my boys are now the aggressors, and it's my responsibility to ensure other dogs don't experience the same situation, regardless of the fact there is no physical harm, but clearly shaken up owners. The shift has been a bolt out the blue and guess my walking bubble these many years has finally been burst!

Anyone else experienced this? Any recommendations or am I on a hiding to nothing?

My spaniel is exactly the same. Won't tolerate intact dogs trying to dominate him. He's ok with dogs who are neutered.
Only other time he's bothered is if he's sniffing for mice or something and another dog tries to join in on his sniff then they get told to go away.

[Chinnock]

Many people have dogs now that they didn't before the lockdown, and many of those have no experience of dog ownership; puppy classes did not happen, so many young dogs will be poorly socialised. There is no one to blame, it is what it is.
A male dog should not display aggression against an immature dog, so by all means make them meet as many new dogs (especially the younger ones) as you can in your neighbourhood. The fewer dogs unknown to them there are, the less problematic walking them will be.

Also, remember that a lead often makes the dog more aggressive. Talking about squaring circles...

I do class myself as quite knowledgeable regarding dogs, having worked with and trained (albeit gundog) over many years. Guess I’ve always been field orientated, whistle, redirection etc and never keen on the lead for close quarter meet and greet. You’re energy is their energy etc.

As much as we wish to defend our “loved ones”, regardless of blame, sadly unsocialised and un-neutered clearly won’t be working in my favour re meeting new dog owners. The times they are a changing!

Agree, desensitising is the name of the game, although no guarantees, but definitely new routines ahead.

[Neil.C]

Dot is shockingly stubborn (as most of the breed are) , I take her through our woods but she'll often to act like a mule to go home. Won't go out in the rain.

She's always on a flexi lead because she frightens some people a bit although she would only jump on them and I realise that not everyone is a dog lover.

She was approached by two French bulldogs the other day, off the lead and all over the place, even gave Dot a nip.

I called to the irresponsible owners and told them in no uncertain terms that if Dot was off the lead like their dogs they be picking up the bits by now.

Unless you have perfect recall, dogs should be on a lead and muzzled if at all uncertain as to their behaviour - for the dog's sake as well as yours.

[thieuster]

..that if Dot was off the lead like their dogs they be picking up the bits by now.

Yes, Bull Terriers. Strange thing is that it are always small dogs that pick up a fight with an EBT. Their ego is larger than their brains, otherwise they wouldn't get into a with a Bull Terrier.

This is an interesting thread. We're 'on the list' so to speak for a Rottweiler pup. In and around our hamlet where we live, most people have dogs. My wife encounters a lot of dogs on her daily run every morning. It dawned on her that a lot of dogs here aren't the happy-go-lucky type of dog she encountered in the city where we used to live. We reckon this has to do with the fact that a lot of dogs here are used guard dog protecting the grounds. Even the Labradors aren't too friendly. I guess that we'll have to consider this when we get our pup.

On the other hand, every official breeder we've spoken tells us that a Rottweiler should be on a (long) leash when walking the dog on public roads. I'm glad we have enough (gated and fenced) space for the dog to roam around freely.

Most people here in the hamlet have horses. One or two, or even complete stables with carriages etc. Adjacent to our land, there's a path mostly used by horse riders. Officially, the path is on our land, but like in the UK (I think) it's custom to have a path across someone's land for walking and horse riding. One of the first things that we're going to do when we have our dog, is learning how he/she should behave with horses.

M.

[BEZELBOY]

Many people have dogs now that they didn't before the lockdown, and many of those have no experience of dog ownership; puppy classes did not happen, so many young dogs will be poorly socialised. There is no one to blame, it is what it is.
A male dog should not display aggression against an immature dog, so by all means make them meet as many new dogs (especially the younger ones) as you can in your neighbourhood. The fewer dogs unknown to them there are, the less problematic walking them will be.

Also, remember that a lead often makes the dog more aggressive. Talking about squaring circles...

This:
You're not alone Jason, Ted, my Lab has exhibited similar tendencies with un-neutered males, not so aggressively, but more of a 'back off' effect and usually only when on the lead too.
We are lucky to be living 'in the sticks', where Ted has been allowed mostly to roam and wander off the lead, but as soon as he is on the lead, he noticeably becomes quite protective, especially when my wife is in tow.
I feel pretty sure too that as soon as you may become a little anxious yourself when seeing approaching dogs and people, the dog immediately picks up on this and can determine that it may be a threat.

Good luck with the de-sensitising though, the more socialising with other dogs the better, but maybe not in these strange times right now........

[andyb28]

I am certainly no expert, but have had many dogs and currently have two springer gun dogs.
Neither of mine have the issues you state, however the way I have trained them, which is used by many others on shoots is the old jekyll and hyde routine.

The do something wrong, i.e. agression towards other dogs you angry shout "What are you doing", the minute they correct themselves, you give a smooth calming 'good dog' and stroke them.

I wish you the best of luck and hope you can get back to normal walks off the lead.

[Saint-Just]

T... but as soon as he is on the lead, he noticeably becomes quite protective, especially when my wife is in tow.
I feel pretty sure too that as soon as you may become a little anxious yourself when seeing approaching dogs and people, the dog immediately picks up on this and can determine that it may be a threat.

My Irish terrier is usually quite laid back, but becomes very protective when there is a dog/person he doesn't know (or like!) when my daughter is at the other end of the lead.

[walkerwek1958]

Hadn’t realised that doggy interactions were so complex until I started looking after stepdaughters labrador (Ozzy) on a frequent basis, he had his balls off as a pup and he's very well- behaved. Despite being a large dog he’s very submissive, he likes to play with other dogs and never tries to be dominant but his size scares some of them. Sometimes if he meets a bitch that takes his fancy he’ll make a thrusting action which is quite funny, he doesn’t attempt to mount them, it’s the shagging equivalent of shadow- boxing. It’s quite embarrassing, particularly if kids are around, but it is amusing. Normally he’s fine with other dogs and he’s very gentle with kids, he was well- trained as a pup and has the typical ‘laid back’ labrador temperament. On paths (away from roads) and in parks we always let him off the lead and he’s never misbehaved, but I’m always mindful of people who have a phobia with dogs so I hang on to him if we have to pass someone in close proximity If he’s on the lead I keep it short, that’s the only way to really have control of a dog in my opinion.

I dislike the long retractable leads, can’t see how the owner has control if the dog is 10 feet away, but what really winds me up is people who insist on walking their dog on a pavement without having it on a lead, it’s a recipe for disaster even on a quiet estate road.

[dizz]

Unusual for a neutered dog to be aggressive to a non neutered dog, it’s usually the other way round, I have experienced it with a friends dog who continually got bullied after being neutered (never happened before the operation)
SBT are very strong willed dogs and will often ‘cop a deaf un’ if strongly interested in something and just won’t come back no matter what.
My experience is people’s understanding of dog aggression/behaviour is very poor, snapping, snarling and postering etc is often misread as a full on fight and people instantly get upset (even if their dog is much bigger and making the most noise) but if you think for one moment your dogs could get into the danger zone and really go for it then you have to muzzle them because the outcome could be truly terrible not to mention expensive.
Also I have found a dog on a lead seems to be a target for a dog running free, they seem to realise they have an advantage, much better to be off the lead and muzzled.


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[JonRA]

Dot is shockingly stubborn (as most of the breed are) , I take her through our woods but she'll often to act like a mule to go home. Won't go out in the rain.

I love the image that this conjours up because it's just like my stubborn staffie/lab cross. As I mentioned above, her excitability and lack of good recall means she is always on a flexi lead when we're out and sometimes decides that I have taken the wrong route, at which point she lies down facing the direction she wants to go in. A tug on the lead is useless but if I gently lift all 25kg off the ground and lower her back down, facing in the right direction, she is usually happy to carry on.

I hope the OP finds a solution to his dog's new behaviour. A lead is not the ideal solution, but dogs can still enjoy life if they're needed.

[JonRA]

I dislike the long retractable leads, can’t see how the owner has control if the dog is 10 feet away, but what really winds me up is people who insist on walking their dog on a pavement without having it on a lead, it’s a recipe for disaster even on a quiet estate road.

I use a retractable lead - a 10m Flexi lead - and whilst I agree they can be problematic, if used sensibly they provide a satisfactory solution to a dog who needs to be on a lead much or all of the time. The key is anticipation of possible problems. I always keep my dog on a short lead on a road or near people and dogs, and rein her in as we approach horses, which frighten her. The benefits are when in the woods and fields and there are no human/canine/equine etc distractions around, she can scurry hither and thither, stopping and starting and generally behaving much like her untethered counterparts.

[RustyBin5]

I use a retractable lead - a 10m Flexi lead - and whilst I agree they can be problematic, if used sensibly they provide a satisfactory solution to a dog who needs to be on a lead much or all of the time. The key is anticipation of possible problems. I always keep my dog on a short lead on a road or near people and dogs, and rein her in as we approach horses, which frighten her. The benefits are when in the woods and fields and there are no human/canine/equine etc distractions around, she can scurry hither and thither, stopping and starting and generally behaving much like her untethered counterparts.

Except you have to constantly pass the handle round trees which makes you look like a tree hugger. Pretty sure mine does that on purpose

[JonRA]

Except you have to constantly pass the handle round trees which makes you look like a tree hugger. Pretty sure mine does that on purpose

Yep - I've hugged a lot of trees :)

[Euan Goold]

My spaniel is exactly the same. Won't tolerate intact dogs trying to dominate him. He's ok with dogs who are neutered.
Only other time he's bothered is if he's sniffing for mice or something and another dog tries to join in on his sniff then they get told to go away.

I have a 10 year old Golden Retriever who is the same, he's great around most other dogs but intact males that rush up to his face is a recipe for trouble. I just tend to thow a ball or stick in the opposite direction and that's enough to distract him , what you are experiencing is certainly not unusal

[awright101]

I use a retractable lead - a 10m Flexi lead - and whilst I agree they can be problematic, if used sensibly they provide a satisfactory solution to a dog who needs to be on a lead much or all of the time. The key is anticipation of possible problems. I always keep my dog on a short lead on a road or near people and dogs, and rein her in as we approach horses, which frighten her. The benefits are when in the woods and fields and there are no human/canine/equine etc distractions around, she can scurry hither and thither, stopping and starting and generally behaving much like her untethered counterparts.

I agree. My German Shepherd is very protective of me and basically any dog she doesn’t know is going to get a telling off if it comes anywhere near me. I use an extendable lead that makes walking through fields more enjoyable for us both.
I did try a muzzle but she got attacked by other dogs off leas and had no means to protect herself.
When she went into kennels while we were on holiday they used to send us videos of her playing with about 20 other dogs without a care in the world.