Whilst it's not exactly a loss to the hobby for me, it does significantly put me off from buying watches from Europe, and I assume for many others who enjoy vintage watches as well. I've bought a few watches from Europe in the last two years, some cost a few hundred, some 6 or 7k. It's not just a case of "saving money", but also a matter of having a larger selection of vintage watches to choose from without having to pay 20+% extra. To your point, I think I will most certainly be put off if a £5k watch now costs me £6k - but maybe that's just me:)Originally Posted by theancientmariner
If he is not VAT registered- then the reasons detailed in this thread will explain the increased costs for him, and also the increased costs (VAT) for his customers.
Or - are you teasing out, that he should be VAT registered?
I would have thought he will now need to add Polish vat on the parts when he resells the used parts in Poland.
That makes no sense from a commercial enterprise. They don't mention the 'cost' that's involved and if they're currently selling to a lot of UK customers, it's still going to be of benefit to sell directly to UK customers. They imply that the UK tax arrangement will be different to other countries outside of the EU but I don't see how that is the case?
He might have paid VAT when bought new but there's no VAT in his selling price, he might even have bought it privately himself.
Compare his price to a used watch from a dealer. There will be VAT on that, privately it should be cheaper.
VAT is a tax on spending, you shouldn't somehow be 'getting it back' if you subsequently sell something.
Does seem strange, don't see why things can't be as before when buying from (non EU) abroad with VAT and duty being collected by HMRC on entry.
Why? I presume that you have a budget and decide whether or not you would like to buy a watch to that budget? If we hadn't left the EU but the pre-owned watch market in Europe had increased in value by 20 percent, would that stop you buying? I noticed yesterday that Tag Carrera watches in a local dealer are around double the price they were ten years ago. That's 100 percent increase. They'll still sell.
He's exporting, not importing. UK VAT doesn't apply.
Why would the pre-owned watch market in Europe increase in value by 20% magically otherwise? And yes it would - if such price increase did not also happen in the UK. That is also the reason that I bought from Europe but not Japan or America. As I mentioned in my previous post - I now objectively have a smaller selection of affordable pre-owned watches than before.
Possibly. Does the argument then become that Poland should remove the import VAT on pre-owned goods? What we could do is have every country in Europe remove their import and export vat restrictions. Oh wait, we had that last year. :-)
Maybe it’s worth pointing out again that the EU has decided to treat trading platforms like eBay as the liable supplier for VAT purposes. The UK system is the closest we can get to an equivalent system. It’s more complicated for us because we aren’t in the Single Market any more but cross-border sales within the EU will also be affected by this legislation in the summer. Every country exporting to the EU or importing from the EU will be affected.
I’ve bought quite a few vintage watches from Europe on eBay and Etsy. I don’t like the idea of paying VAT on private sales just because HMRC can’t differentiate them from businesses, so I had a closer look at the sellers I had bought from. Almost all of them had sold dozens or 100s of watches in the last year. They are dealers really, certainly would be seen that way on TZ. So if I am being honest with myself, I’m glad to have done business with them but really VAT should have been charged and remitted all along in many cases. Even if that put the prices up. I guess this is why the law has changed, and also to collect VAT from the Chinese and other overseas traders who blur the lines about whether they are importers or based in-country.
Edit: These notes explain what is going on. https://ec.europa.eu/taxation_custom...s_30092020.pdf
Last edited by alfat33; 3rd January 2021 at 19:04.
No but the buyer has to pay it on a 2nd hand watch unless it is an intra-EU sale. Therefore buying a pre owned watch from the EU will now cost 20% more in the UK as the UK will levy VAT on it upon import. Likewise your 2nd had watch ends up being 20% more expensive for an EU buyer
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It does sound to me as though your motivation is purely cost and not the watches themselves. In which case if the watches are available on the UK market at a similar cost you would buy them here. Those wanting UK independence will appreciate that. Therefore, the European watch market as a whole will be unaffected, simply that those watches which were less expensive in mainland Europe will now be purchased in the UK and those which are unobtainable within the UK, will still be purchased from mainland Europe. Sounds like a fair system.
What would the situation be if an EU seller came to UK and sold his watch here (or vice versa).
Is it tax evasion if the transaction was done here?
I believe that the legislation has been drafted in both jurisdictions to regard that as evasion. If the seller brought it into the country to sell then it’s subject to VAT (if not exempt for some other reason).
Take a similar case, which is that a UK seller advertises a low value vintage watch for €100 on the German eBay site. In that case eBay would be required to collect the VAT if I’ve understood the rules correctly (come the summer anyway).
Cost is part of anyone's consideration for purchasing anything. Nevertheless, again I was talking about the availability of vintage watches in the UK (66 million population) vs. Europe (450 million) - many watches are unobtainable within the UK. I think it's completely reasonable for one to be put off by the now 20% price increase for some of these watches. This has nothing to do with my political stand (which should not be discussed in this forum) or attitude towards UK independance.
I think the point is that the UK Government expects the seller to collect the VAT and pay it to them.
This would mean that all sellers exporting to the UK would require a VAT account with HMRC.
I am not sure that this is the case but that seems to be what the Dutch supplier is saying
I think in theory this will reduce the workload of the import customs (as in one will look at a form which says VAT pre-paid and clear the item, as opposed to calculating the VAT due, waiting for it to be paid etc), and hopefully reduce delay?
I guess it should be good news for UK vintage watch shops, who already have to charge VAT on their watch sales. And indeed for EU vintage watch shops.
But if there is increased workload for suppliers to sell to the UK, including having to pay collected monies to HMRC they will either not bother selling to the UK or will put up prices to cover the extra admin.
We have already seen courier costs to and from the EU have gone up sharply
A Friend in Germany tells me that German DHL have put up the price for a 5kg parcel to the UK from E16 to E27
Yes indeed (as per previous post Re dutch bike parts). I was just guessing why the HMRC / government came up with such a rule:)
Agreed.
Much of the VAT reform is EU wide. It is designed to stop the low value items coming into the EU with no VAT and hurting our businesses.
The EU have delayed introduction until July 2021. The UK introduced it with Brexit now we are outside the EU. So we feel it first.
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Last edited by gerard; 3rd January 2021 at 21:37.
[QUOTE=Kevin;5633084]I think the point is that the UK Government expects the seller to collect the VAT and pay it to them.
This would mean that all sellers exporting to the UK would require a VAT account with HMRC.
I am not sure that this is the case but that seems to be what the Dutch supplier is saying[/QUOTE]
It is, but only on sales under £135 in value. Higher value sales will be treated as before, i.e. item will be assessed by HMRC on arrival in the UK and any charges calculated/added. See post #30 on first page for more info and link to gov. site.
Of course, whether or not EU retailers of low value items think the extra paperwork is worthwhile we'll have to wait and see.
[QUOTE=RickS;5633214]Is it just EU retailers or worldwide?
Much of the VAT reform is EU wide. It is designed to stop the low value items coming into the EU with no BAT and hurting their businesses.
I think that is what you meant
Tax dodgers around the world will be livid.
Import duties are not new.
I paid massive import tax on a motorbike camshaft from the USA - even the £35 dollar carriage fee was hit by the 18% import duty & handling fee. A $65 camshaft = £108
The same thing happened with a computer touch screen from China via Ali-express £65 screen = £82 with the import duties due to EU anti dumping laws for computer monitors.
These VAT arrangements are likely to be a temporary measure until the EU can catch up with the agreement terms "they" have brokered for their member states.
If the fees can be paid at source - it will be cheaper in the long run due to the removal of the £8-£12 handling fee, and a faster flow through customs due to the pre-payment of import duties.
How can it be cheaper than no fees at all from the EU?
Are USA suppliers going to prepay import duties?
Couriers are also putting up prices due to additional delays.
I buy vinyl from Europe, (for personal use, not as a business).looks like I could be seeing a 30% increase in cost. (VAT + Courier fees).
It will be really interesting to see what the RPI looks like in 3 months
Might be worth you reading this:
https://pages.ebay.com/seller-center...formation.html
I never mentioned UK.
Why?
Ebay (USA) will collect for the UK Government as they do for sales from the EU
All online platforms have to do that.
But that wasn't my question.
OK, I misunderstood your question then.
So he has paid VAT on the same purchase twice over. Imagine that same thing happening many, many times over on movements of goods between the UK and EU, in either direction.
I guess that’ll be one way of paying for COVID.
Sorry it was
"Are USA suppliers going to prepay import duties"
I was referring to direct sales not via an online platform
And before that the UK levied Purchase Tax, which was charged when the goods were sold into the supply chain, ie to the reseller/distribution chain.
Couriers are also putting up prices due to additional delays. = I'm sorry, but it wasn't the UK authorities who kept more than 10,000 continental lorry drivers stuck at the Dover crossing for 3-days just before Christmas.
That is a very tenuous association. That was due to Covid-19 not the change in Customs rules.
Half the world banned travellers from the UK
Welcome to the world where 'we control our borders' - remarkably, it seems others do too...
M
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Breitling Cosmonaute 809 - What's not to like?
Some irony in the outcome you can't even purchase British made products now...
Brexit has halted the ability to purchase made in England Brookes saddles in the UK.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/carlton...n-england/amp/
From an outsider (Australian) it's interesting to watch how this is all dealt with. We recently forced eBay etc to claim the GST (our vat) on international purchases rather than have customs deal with it at the border. Over time it's proved cheaper and quicker to get some products as customs are only for security really now rather than taxation.
The benefit of all this has been smaller businesses aren't required to claim the GST (there's an annual sales threshold). Means I've paid GST on the various small bits and pieces off eBay/AliExpress and larger purchases (e.g. some microbrand watches such as an anordain) have slipped through customs with no charge which certainly has been a nice outcome.
Sure it'll all get sorted eventually but certainly some nashing of teeth for a while (I'll be sure not to mention our GST is only 10%).
Yes, not a major issue for buying new from an EU retailer but will be an issue for 2nd hand private sales. I think the point is the same watch will cost the UK collector 20% more after paying UK VAT when imported than it will cost competing collectors in the EU - and as has been said a private UK seller will be 20% less competitive to EU buyers. Just have to be careful with how much you bid and remember the VAT on top to pay when arrives in the UK - will def make the hobby more expensive for us in the UK and harder to trade on to the EU- lets hope VAT on none -VAT private sales can be sorted out but I doubt it as its just not a big enough issue in the great scheme of things - and both the EU and the UK will collect extra VAT from it. Courier fees may settle down over time so I don't think I'll be buying anything in the short term outwith the UK which is a shame as I had my eye on a couple of vintage watches but they will cost me an additional £3-400 now! Must admit I never thought of the implications of VAT on private sales and had thought this would be covered in a free trade deal - just have to save a bit more I guess.
Last edited by Drumcairn01; 4th January 2021 at 11:47.
No they don't. They control their own borders, which they closed to the UK to try to halt the spread of the new strain of virus.
Started out with nothing. Still have most of it left.
Indeed, that was my point.
From their point of view, they control 'our borders' (ie THEIRS from our POV).
Would we have done any different?
M
Breitling Cosmonaute 809 - What's not to like?
That's a strange concept?
The European seller's price might not include VAT per se, but - the used price is based on the price new (in EU) which does include VAT.
In private purchases and sales - think of the VAT as just being another constituent part of the watch - like, the strap.
The SH price is set by "how much reduction on the new price is needed - to secure each sale, in the EU"
In that respect - VAT is still there (in a numerical value at least).
Well I don’t find it a strange concept.
What about a used watch, sold several times through a dealer - will there be multiple VAT amounts making up the price of the watch if eventually sold privately? As if sold with several straps maybe?
Your initial claim is one that is oft bandied about for S/H cars: "The car loses the VAT as soon as it is out the showroom" (often down the pub). For the private buyer - it does not.
There is a VAT consideration for anything sold between dealers each time (VAT Registered), where VAT is charged only on the profit, not the value/cost.
But - the cost to the private individual is purely based on supply/demand of used items (car/watch/whatever) in comparison to the new, VAT-inclusive cost.
First it was about private sellers. When acting in a professional capacity, you collect the tax for the state. But in a private capacity you pay the VAT, which then becomes part of the price of the watch, as blackal said.
The price of your watch on the 2nd hand market is indeed based on the total price the first buyer paid, modulated by the collectability factor (which means the 2nd hand price could plummet or soar compared to the price when new).
When you sell privately within your country, no one is inconvenienced. When we were part of the EU, this non-inconvenienced area extended to all EU countries.
However, now we are out, HMRC (and their EU counterparts) do not differentiate between new and second hand: if the transaction crosses the border between EU and UK, VAT applies.
You raise an interesting point for the professional second hand market, but it's treated as just another business, and therefore the trader collects VAT for the state, like any antiques business. To be fair, even if there is technically no added value brought by the seller, I can't see any government deliberately removing a source of income if it can get away with it.
'Against stupidity, the gods themselves struggle in vain' - Schiller.
Yes, the price is the market value but the VAT element has gone once bought and a subsequent buyer shouldn’t be expected to repay the initial purchaser’s tax on his spending.
He can charge whatever he likes but don’t make out his VAT has to be recouped. Ultimately it’s unfortunately down to residuals and what the watch owes them.
Basically this means that EU buyer won’t buy from UK and UK buyer won’t buy from EU from a private seller unless seller will sell under marketprice(which they won’t) or the item is something that buyer can’t buy otherwise and is willing to pay marketprice+VAT.
Exactly. And it was always like this from the US, for example. Currency fluctuations between the Euro and the Sterling will play their part, too.
'Against stupidity, the gods themselves struggle in vain' - Schiller.
It really has not. The vat element, being inseparable from the original price to a private buyer - remains as a constituent part of the resale cost, albeit you can think of it as a similarly-reduced figure, same as the strap.
Go back and try and square your original statement that the (private) seller would have a reduced sale price.
That's true though the flip side of that is that any UK watch would become more attractively priced for UK buyers in comparison to anywhere else.
If you were selling and attracted more UK buyers you then avoid the postal headache of sending abroad.
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