Patek 5711/1A vs. Piaget Polo.
______
Jim.
I'm amazed people care so much about the Everest thing still to be honest. Even if it was true that Rolex was the first watch to summit Everest (which we all know now to be untrue), it wasn't an Explorer anyway given they didn't exist yet. Rolex hasn't marketed it as being the first up Everest in forever and have apologised for their original claims (per the other thread), but I see no issue with them continuing to talk about the mountaineering pedigree of their watches which were using on that Everest expedition and on many, many others.
Laughed out loud
It's just a bit of fun, choose your own criteria.
Laurent Ferrier Grand Sport Tourbillon - PP Nautilus
I'd take either thanks very much, but the Grand Sport is the watch which would make me bow out of the watch game forever.
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PRS 22 Speedbird
Or
IWC XV
I understand the concept and agree on some of the examples which compares an Exploder with an Omega model or a PP rattrapante with an ALS split seconds. The casework, function and finishing on the movements are very comparable but one brand commands a higher price due to cache.
However, some of the other comparison don’t seem right to me. For example, Despite being a big fan of GP, I cannot say a RO is comparable to a standard Laureato. I am not taking about pedigree or who came out with the model first but actual characteristics of the watches. They look similar at a glance but once you go deeper, you can see where the difference in RRP (note I am not using secondary market prices here) comes from abs they are are not viable equals. The dial on the RO is hand turned Guilloché resulting in very sharp edges and angles whilst the clous de Paris of the Laureato is stamped (although still very nice looking). The RO movement and bracelet have a lot of hand finishing to a higher quality than the Laureato bracelet and movement. I am not bashing GP at all. A big fan and the Laureato skeleton is on my 2021 list.
Same with BB58 and Seiko SPB147. I had/ have not and they both look very much. But after a bit of handling, there are many discernible differences in quality.
BW,
Chi Kai
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Last edited by Ctam; 27th December 2020 at 13:47.
I recall that philosophers absolutely love debating what ‘same’ actually means. For instance, what would be the ‘same’ time on the Sun? It’s often quite a tricky term; while on such subjects, the term requiring the most explanations, according to the Oxford Dictionary, is ‘set’.
Who would have thought.....’set your watch ‘ might be a linguistic minefield.
Last edited by paskinner; 27th December 2020 at 13:40.
Seiko SPB187 vs Seiko 5 customised on seiko website.
Yes, yes. 6R movement, better finishing, proper dive watch etc. But...
42mm seiko with factory navy dial, black metallic bezel, 4 o’clock crown, oyster bracelet, for a quarter of the price!
I have the advantage of actually having completed on just such a comparative exercise in the last few months.
I bought the Mido Ocean Star GMT, and as a direct result I sold my Tudor BB GMT (and kept nearly £2k in change).
Dave
Patek Nautilus -vs- just about anything from Elizabeth Duke.
To be fair, I misunderstood the tool. You can design your own, it then goes to a public vote and the winner gets made into production.
https://watchesbysjx.com/2020/10/sei...beatmaker.html
I still hold that an skx-inspired seiko 5 offers a bargain offering to the spb185/7.
Good idea for post but undone by ridiculous examples. I don’t think OP wanted people to compare similar looking watches I.e more expensive originals versus copies.
I guess it all depends on what each person values or ranks as most being important....
I'm not sure they do. We prefer worrying about how many coins we have in our pockets before we get a job. Personally, I've built a career out of not believing in beliefs. Nice work if you can get it.
Leibnitz's law has been the accepted solution for ever:
∀F(Fx ↔ Fy) → x=y.
Always assuming the extrinsic supervenes upon the intrinsic.
In my experience, when issues come up about this in philosophy it's denotation that's the issue.
Next?
Nah, we'd just move on to pointing out that the Chinese got half a dozen Seagull watches to the top of Everest well before Rolex finally crawled to the summit in the mid sixties.
Mind you, if you wanted something from the Wilsdorf stable that actually succeded in the fifties, there's always:
Compare and contrast with Gregory's 'Everest' Rolex:
I was so impressed with mine I bought both versions:
And so on:
All the strengths of the 6098, none of the weaknesses and lots of firsts. More to the point, around the tenth of the price to buy combined with cheap easy spares availability.
I'm not sure if this is an entry or just trolling you!
Last edited by M4tt; 27th December 2020 at 16:28.
Your posts always provoke thought. Thanks.
Made me google Liebnitz’s law.
Seems it is actually Liebniz.
But interesting read
https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/i...indiscernible/
Edited to note your following post. I wasn’t referring to you. You have better things to do:-)
I don’t think the likes of Wittgenstein were too worried about Liebnitz or thought he had an ‘accepted solution.’...with language it’s use which determines meaning. Take ‘ while waiting for the jelly to set, I set the time on my watch , which is one of my set of chronometers.’ Three different and distinct meanings of ‘set’ in a single sentence.
In what way are they ‘the same’? Same word, yes, but........the problems of our human communication are not solvable by a formula.
As for earning an income, probably best to avoid philosophy. Or selling watches....
Last edited by paskinner; 27th December 2020 at 17:22.
I think this exceeds the IWC equivalent, for about half the money
Dave
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That Brellum is gorgeous!
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They also make a very nice version of the Zenith el Primero.
After admiring the A Lange and Sohne chronograph on another thread I swapped my MKii Vantage for my Poljot 3133 powered Strela chronograph and convinced myself that I did indeed get the same two subdial, hand wound chronograph with visually pleasing movement for less.
I am not quite sure whether you would rely on it in space or not. But it is worth bringing to attention that Wally Shirra, the first man to take a speed master in space, see FOIS inspiration, had a Rolex Daytona 6240 as his personal watch.
So he must have thought that the Daytona was probably ok, especially if he had access to both.
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Certainly, in ordinary language it may well be. I'm not sure that your example does what you wish as each has a different position and significance in a language game and Lelbniz's law has not problem with that. Late Wittgenstein would simply say that nothing can be truly identical with anything except itself and that the very idea they could be is a bewitchment of language.
Early can be quoted disagreeing with your formulation:
However, as Russell pointed out, sometimes we need to establish strict identity criteria in precisely this way when denotation has failed us: Chomolungma is Sagarmāthā and Shangri-la doesn't exist between them. The Morning Star is The Evening Star. The Mind is (or isn't) the Brain and so on. Wittgenstein struggled with this, but I'm unaware of a solution that involved the rejection of Leibniz, who he was quite fond of. Certainly, he's left no legacy of rejecting that identity that I am aware of. I'd be delighted to be schooled...4.241 When I use two signs with one and the same meaning, I express this by putting the sign ‘=’. between them. So ‘a = b’ means that the sign ‘a’ can be substituted for the sign ‘b’.
I've made enough out of philosophy one way or another, not to need to sell watches.
Agree.
I just feel that there is no direct comparison between the Daytona and the speedmaster. They are very different watches, both legends for different reasons.
It’s not like they look similar or anything else. I presume that the question was mostly referring to aesthetics rather than just functionality.
It just feels like someone could say most chronographs can be had for less when compared to a daytona since they are all chronographs.
Perhaps a more to the point comparison would have been the Daytona V the Tudor big block and the 792xx series. There is a reason these tudors are nicknamed Date-Tonas!
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If you do find two that are the same in type/function/quality and subtract the price of one from the other, what you seem to be neatly left with, is the value created by marketing.
IWC Pilot chronograph - Muhle Glashutte Pilot chronograph
Breitling Navitimer - Sinn 103
Zenith CP-2 - Guinand startfighter or Siduna flyback
Sinn 144 - Guinand Series 60
Glashutte Original Senator Sixties - Zenith Elite Classic 39mm
Stowa Antea KS - Nomos Glashutte Ludwig (I wouldnt touch the Nomos with someone elses barge pole personally)
Anything sinn, guinand can be had for less. Build quality is at least as good with some of the tech such as AR missing.
I do feel that guinand is also staying closer to the the vintage vibe. For example I hate the steel ring between the sinn 103 bezel and the dial crystal (sapphire crystal) with guinand, the transition from the bezel to the crystal is pretty much seamless and better looking.
As far as Siduna is concerned, it really is above and beyond anything I expected. Easily puts to shame much more expensive alternatives.
Having owned all three brands I would probably say that I prefer the Siduna out of all three
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Dornbluth 99.1 - Tourby
Controversial one I own both. Dornbluth start at around 3 -4K Tourby start at about 1.5k. You can extensively customise the movement on a Tourby watch to pretty much whatever you want, both regulate their watches in house, Tourby also do a lot of polish work on their cases and a lot of other stuff. Even with a lot of customisation it may come out slightly less than a Dornbluth. Dornbluth you are paying from an almost build from scratch, both have a personal touch.
Dornbluth - Hentschel Hamburg. Still struggle to see why they are so much more expensive than a Dornbluth.
Breguet type XX - Dodane type 21 not so much in spec but if someone was looking at a military heritage pilots watch of same design without it being a "rip off" then its less than half the price.
Last edited by robert75; 28th December 2020 at 11:33.
Irritatingly, I've just looked and I can't find it now, but during a discussion on this back on WUS a decade or more ago I was pointed at a few articles about the high jinks surrounding giving stuff to people on the astronaut programs which eventually led to a showdown over stamps, some serious disciplinary action and a tightening of rules. I assume that the thread and the articles referred to are still around somewhere, but I can't find them. I do remember it pretty clearly though as it connects with other stuff I'm interested in.
As I remember, Rolex were early to the game and took their usual route of just giving watches away with little expectation of anything. This is an approach they have taken in many fields and so is hardly out of character. I don't see it as a bad thing - Wilsdorf was a remarkable visionary and was half a century ahead of the field when it came to product placement. Likewise GM gave and then rented cars on the very cheap and so on. It was a hard market to penetrate as the original accutrons were infinitely more accurate and issued to anyone who had undertaken the initial training in the modified Starfighters before going on to the X-15, Mercury and Gemini. People always forget that the X15 was a genuine spaceplane and that several later astronauts, including Armstrong and Engle started that way.
Most of these posts are convincing me there’s no substitute for the expensive one unfortunately. But I’ll suggest a few cheaper alternatives, without claiming that they’re much more than similar.
AP 15202 Royal Oak - AP 14790ST Royal Oak It may be a bit late on this front, given current 14790 prices. Or not, given current 15202 prices. The 14790ST has similar ‘ultra-thin’ proportions to the 14790ST, so is a very different proposition to the current 37mm ‘small model’, which is thicker and looks quite different on the wrist. Yes the 15202 is more modern, has a different movement and is 2mm larger, and that does make a difference. But wow that’s an expensive 2mm.
AP Royal Oak 14790ST / VC Overseas Ultra-Thin - VC Overseas 42042 This may seem a stretch as that’s three quite different watches, but bear with me. The 14790st and the 42042 are both thin 37mm integrated bracelet watches by holy trinity brands. They don’t look the same obviously, and the RO is the design classic. However the VC is quite possibly better built, feeling noticeably more solid. It’s also ‘ultra-thin’, something only available for an eye-watering amount in the current Overseas collection. The same? Of course not. But it’s a serious alternative and a huge saving.
AP Royal Oak - Rolex Oysterquartz Of course they don’t look exactly the same, but it’s along the same lines, and having Rolex written on them does no harm. Genta designed the ‘Texan’ from which the OQ is derived, and he did it before he designed the RO, so they’re a genuine Genta / Rolex hybrid, not a Rolex homage. That’s potentially a saving of tens of thousands, for a superbly solid and relatively rare watch.
Vintage Grand Seiko - Seiko Skyliner (or certain Seikomatics, King Seikos, Lord Marvels etc). The GS logo certainly adds to the price, but after 50 years, a well preserved example of the right 60s Seiko can be just as charming and keep time just as well, and some look very similar. In design terms, certain Skyliners in particular look like they could easily have been a GS, and feel as well made. Vintage KS probably just jumped in value too, but remain cheaper than the recent reissue.