Getting the same for less.

[TheTigerUK]

Seiko 6159-7000 - Rolex SD

[ej86]

There is also discussion to be had here in terms of respective ‘quality’, but these two certainly equivalent from a functionality point of view.

My personal preference is for the 16570 (size considerations are a part of this, as are simple aesthetics) but the Omega offers a couple of attributes that could be seen as being advantageous by some: rotating bezel and higher water resistance.

Having owned both I’d have to agree with this. The quality of the omega to me was at least as good, and in some cases (lume, wr, bracelet) better. But in design and history the Rolex wins and the omega is almost a homage.

[robert75]

Zeno PRS-3 vs CWC RN diver. Both quartz from reputable brands yet the CWC is double the price of the Zeno.

I had both and the only issue I had with the Zeno is the seconds hand failing to hit the markers, didnt have that issue with the CWC. Other than that yes, the CWC is a massive rip off.

[jwg663]

Patek 5711/1A vs. Piaget Polo.

[M1011]

No disrespect to the speedy pro, a great watch and the moon history is phenomenal, but as a former and current owner of both, the Daytona is miles better in every way. Also some find the speedy look too geeky where as Daytona is always cool.

A great alternative to a Rolex Explorer 1016 is a vintage military issue Smiths W10. Real military issue watch vs tribute watch to Everest expedition where it may or may not have been worn at the summit. Having said that, the 1016 just looks better.

I'm amazed people care so much about the Everest thing still to be honest. Even if it was true that Rolex was the first watch to summit Everest (which we all know now to be untrue), it wasn't an Explorer anyway given they didn't exist yet. Rolex hasn't marketed it as being the first up Everest in forever and have apologised for their original claims (per the other thread), but I see no issue with them continuing to talk about the mountaineering pedigree of their watches which were using on that Everest expedition and on many, many others.

I think the price of your meals is stopping you from buying better cars.

Laughed out loud

How are we defining quality?
Technical - e.g.accuracy.. Precision?
Materials - e.g.steel, gold?
Others....?

It's just a bit of fun, choose your own criteria.

[leo1790]

Laurent Ferrier Grand Sport Tourbillon - PP Nautilus

I'd take either thanks very much, but the Grand Sport is the watch which would make me bow out of the watch game forever.

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[inthered]

PRS 22 Speedbird
Or
IWC XV

[Ctam]

I understand the concept and agree on some of the examples which compares an Exploder with an Omega model or a PP rattrapante with an ALS split seconds. The casework, function and finishing on the movements are very comparable but one brand commands a higher price due to cache.

However, some of the other comparison don’t seem right to me. For example, Despite being a big fan of GP, I cannot say a RO is comparable to a standard Laureato. I am not taking about pedigree or who came out with the model first but actual characteristics of the watches. They look similar at a glance but once you go deeper, you can see where the difference in RRP (note I am not using secondary market prices here) comes from abs they are are not viable equals. The dial on the RO is hand turned Guilloché resulting in very sharp edges and angles whilst the clous de Paris of the Laureato is stamped (although still very nice looking). The RO movement and bracelet have a lot of hand finishing to a higher quality than the Laureato bracelet and movement. I am not bashing GP at all. A big fan and the Laureato skeleton is on my 2021 list.

Same with BB58 and Seiko SPB147. I had/ have not and they both look very much. But after a bit of handling, there are many discernible differences in quality.

BW,
Chi Kai


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[paskinner]

I recall that philosophers absolutely love debating what ‘same’ actually means. For instance, what would be the ‘same’ time on the Sun? It’s often quite a tricky term; while on such subjects, the term requiring the most explanations, according to the Oxford Dictionary, is ‘set’.
Who would have thought.....’set your watch ‘ might be a linguistic minefield.

[Idontgram]

Seiko SPB187 vs Seiko 5 customised on seiko website.

Yes, yes. 6R movement, better finishing, proper dive watch etc. But...

42mm seiko with factory navy dial, black metallic bezel, 4 o’clock crown, oyster bracelet, for a quarter of the price!

[Satori]

£675 vs £6150 for pretty much the same watch.

[TaketheCannoli]

What does this mean? I read it as though you can customise your own on the Seiko site but I can't see that.

Seiko SPB187 vs Seiko 5 customised on seiko website.

[Gyp]

PRS 22 Speedbird
Or
IWC XV

That's the one I was looking for

[sweets]

I have the advantage of actually having completed on just such a comparative exercise in the last few months.
I bought the Mido Ocean Star GMT, and as a direct result I sold my Tudor BB GMT (and kept nearly £2k in change).
Dave

[PhilipK]

Patek Nautilus -vs- just about anything from Elizabeth Duke.

[Doug86]

Every time I see a new Seiko released I don't know whether it's going to be the price of a meal, or the price of a car.

I'm so glad I'm not alone in this

[Idontgram]

What does this mean? I read it as though you can customise your own on the Seiko site but I can't see that.

To be fair, I misunderstood the tool. You can design your own, it then goes to a public vote and the winner gets made into production.

https://watchesbysjx.com/2020/10/sei...beatmaker.html

I still hold that an skx-inspired seiko 5 offers a bargain offering to the spb185/7.

[RAJEN]

I'm amazed people care so much about the Everest thing still to be honest. Even if it was true that Rolex was the first watch to summit Everest (which we all know now to be untrue), it wasn't an Explorer anyway given they didn't exist yet. Rolex hasn't marketed it as being the first up Everest in forever and have apologised for their original claims (per the other thread), but I see no issue with them continuing to talk about the mountaineering pedigree of their watches which were using on that Everest expedition and on many, many others.

Ha! You make a lot of sense but it would deny some either Le the purpose of their existence if we put it into practice:-)

[RAJEN]

Good idea for post but undone by ridiculous examples. I don’t think OP wanted people to compare similar looking watches I.e more expensive originals versus copies.

[timc]

I guess it all depends on what each person values or ranks as most being important....

[M4tt]

I recall that philosophers absolutely love debating what ‘same’ actually means. For instance, what would be the ‘same’ time on the Sun? It’s often quite a tricky term; while on such subjects, the term requiring the most explanations, according to the Oxford Dictionary, is ‘set’.
Who would have thought.....’set your watch ‘ might be a linguistic minefield.

I'm not sure they do. We prefer worrying about how many coins we have in our pockets before we get a job. Personally, I've built a career out of not believing in beliefs. Nice work if you can get it.

Leibnitz's law has been the accepted solution for ever:

∀F(Fx ↔ Fy) → x=y.

Always assuming the extrinsic supervenes upon the intrinsic.

In my experience, when issues come up about this in philosophy it's denotation that's the issue.

Next?

[daveyw]

Laurent Ferrier Grand Sport Tourbillon - PP Nautilus

I'd take either thanks very much, but the Grand Sport is the watch which would make me bow out of the watch game forever.

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That’s gotta be one example where the Patek is less in every aspect

[M4tt]

Ha! You make a lot of sense but it would deny some either Le the purpose of their existence if we put it into practice:-)

Nah, we'd just move on to pointing out that the Chinese got half a dozen Seagull watches to the top of Everest well before Rolex finally crawled to the summit in the mid sixties.

Mind you, if you wanted something from the Wilsdorf stable that actually succeded in the fifties, there's always:


Compare and contrast with Gregory's 'Everest' Rolex:





I was so impressed with mine I bought both versions:



And so on:




All the strengths of the 6098, none of the weaknesses and lots of firsts. More to the point, around the tenth of the price to buy combined with cheap easy spares availability.

I'm not sure if this is an entry or just trolling you!

[RAJEN]

I'm not sure they do. We prefer worrying about how many coins we have in our pockets before we get a job. Personally, I've built a career out of not believing in beliefs. Nice work if you can get it.

Leibnitz's law has been the accepted solution for ever:

∀F(Fx ↔ Fy) → x=y.

Always assuming the extrinsic supervenes upon the intrinsic.

In my experience, when issues come up about this in philosophy it's denotation that's the issue.

Next?

Your posts always provoke thought. Thanks.
Made me google Liebnitz’s law.
Seems it is actually Liebniz.
But interesting read

https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/i...indiscernible/
Edited to note your following post. I wasn’t referring to you. You have better things to do:-)

[paskinner]

I'm not sure they do. We prefer worrying about how many coins we have in our pockets before we get a job. Personally, I've built a career out of not believing in beliefs. Nice work if you can get it.

Leibnitz's law has been the accepted solution for ever:

∀F(Fx ↔ Fy) → x=y.

Always assuming the extrinsic supervenes upon the intrinsic.

In my experience, when issues come up about this in philosophy it's denotation that's the issue.

Next?

I don’t think the likes of Wittgenstein were too worried about Liebnitz or thought he had an ‘accepted solution.’...with language it’s use which determines meaning. Take ‘ while waiting for the jelly to set, I set the time on my watch , which is one of my set of chronometers.’ Three different and distinct meanings of ‘set’ in a single sentence.
In what way are they ‘the same’? Same word, yes, but........the problems of our human communication are not solvable by a formula.
As for earning an income, probably best to avoid philosophy. Or selling watches....

[helidoc]

I think this exceeds the IWC equivalent, for about half the money







Dave


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[ryanb741]

That Brellum is gorgeous!

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[helidoc]

That Brellum is gorgeous!

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And this is the back



Dave


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[china]

They also make a very nice version of the Zenith el Primero.

[jmarchitect]

After admiring the A Lange and Sohne chronograph on another thread I swapped my MKii Vantage for my Poljot 3133 powered Strela chronograph and convinced myself that I did indeed get the same two subdial, hand wound chronograph with visually pleasing movement for less.

[helidoc]

I don’t currently own either (however, I did in the past) but I can’t see how most B&R could be nicer than a £500 (after discounts) Christopher Ward.


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Ban him! ;)


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[Ar.parask]

I'd genuinely disagree here but that's fine. IMHO the Speedy is the nicest looking chrono - it has a huge advantage over the Daytona in so far as you can actually tell the time on it (and certainly you could tell the time elapsed at a glance on the chrono registers).

Daytona is for sure nicely made, swankier movement etc (and I've owned several of the SS models over time also) but I'd say a fundamental functionality of a watch is to tell the time and core functionality of a chronograph is to measure elapsed time in a very legible manner and I would respectfully say here that the Daytona doesn't do as good a job as the Speedy (or many other chronos also) as the dial is so hard to read. As a sports watch it isn't a very good one even though it looks great and is one of my favourite Rolexes. As jewellery it is bang on and for sure better than a Speedy Pro. Would you rely on it in space? No chance. So as a functional chronograph the Speedy Pro is better than the Daytona. NASA came to the same decision of course.

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I am not quite sure whether you would rely on it in space or not. But it is worth bringing to attention that Wally Shirra, the first man to take a speed master in space, see FOIS inspiration, had a Rolex Daytona 6240 as his personal watch.
So he must have thought that the Daytona was probably ok, especially if he had access to both.


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[ryanb741]

I am not quite sure whether you would rely on it in space or not. But it is worth bringing to attention that Wally Shirra, the first man to take a speed master in space, see FOIS inspiration, had a Rolex Daytona 6240 as his personal watch.
So he must have thought that the Daytona was probably ok, especially if he had access to both.


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This is true although it should be noted that the Omega CK2998 he took into space was also a personal watch

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[M4tt]

I don’t think the likes of Wittgenstein were too worried about Liebnitz or thought he had an ‘accepted solution.’...with language it’s use which determines meaning. Take ‘ while waiting for the jelly to set, I set the time on my watch , which is one of my set of chronometers.’ Three different and distinct meanings of ‘set’ in a single sentence.
In what way are they ‘the same’? Same word, yes, but........the problems of our human communication are not solvable by a formula.
As for earning an income, probably best to avoid philosophy. Or selling watches....

Certainly, in ordinary language it may well be. I'm not sure that your example does what you wish as each has a different position and significance in a language game and Lelbniz's law has not problem with that. Late Wittgenstein would simply say that nothing can be truly identical with anything except itself and that the very idea they could be is a bewitchment of language.

Early can be quoted disagreeing with your formulation:

4.241 When I use two signs with one and the same meaning, I express this by putting the sign ‘=’. between them. So ‘a = b’ means that the sign ‘a’ can be substituted for the sign ‘b’.

However, as Russell pointed out, sometimes we need to establish strict identity criteria in precisely this way when denotation has failed us: Chomolungma is Sagarmāthā and Shangri-la doesn't exist between them. The Morning Star is The Evening Star. The Mind is (or isn't) the Brain and so on. Wittgenstein struggled with this, but I'm unaware of a solution that involved the rejection of Leibniz, who he was quite fond of. Certainly, he's left no legacy of rejecting that identity that I am aware of. I'd be delighted to be schooled...

I've made enough out of philosophy one way or another, not to need to sell watches.

[Ar.parask]

This is true although it should be noted that the Omega CK2998 he took into space was also a personal watch

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Agree.
I just feel that there is no direct comparison between the Daytona and the speedmaster. They are very different watches, both legends for different reasons.
It’s not like they look similar or anything else. I presume that the question was mostly referring to aesthetics rather than just functionality.
It just feels like someone could say most chronographs can be had for less when compared to a daytona since they are all chronographs.
Perhaps a more to the point comparison would have been the Daytona V the Tudor big block and the 792xx series. There is a reason these tudors are nicknamed Date-Tonas!


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[M4tt]

Your posts always provoke thought. Thanks.
Made me google Liebnitz’s law.
Seems it is actually Liebniz.
But interesting read

https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/i...indiscernible/
Edited to note your following post. I wasn’t referring to you. You have better things to do:-)

It certainly is. How to look like an amateur in a couple of letters.

[M4tt]

This is true although it should be noted that the Omega CK2998 he took into space was also a personal watch

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And that Rolex, ever with an eye to the main chance, gave a Rolex to all the astronauts.

[Jdh1]

If you do find two that are the same in type/function/quality and subtract the price of one from the other, what you seem to be neatly left with, is the value created by marketing.

[Ar.parask]

And that Rolex, ever with an eye to the main chance, gave a Rolex to all the astronauts.

That is really interesting. I have never come across this piece of info. Would really be interested to do some more reading on this


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[ac11111]

That is really interesting. I have never come across this piece of info. Would really be interested to do some more reading on this


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I think most wore they’re personal 1675s, popular watch in the day for pilots which they were before they became astronauts

[Ar.parask]

I think most wore they’re personal 1675s, popular watch in the day for pilots which they were before they became astronauts

Yes, that makes sense.
But the previous post implied that Rolex gifted watches to Astronauts.
I was aware that omega gifted solid gold speedmasters to a few of them but never heard of Rolex doing the same


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[robert75]

IWC Pilot chronograph - Muhle Glashutte Pilot chronograph
Breitling Navitimer - Sinn 103
Zenith CP-2 - Guinand startfighter or Siduna flyback
Sinn 144 - Guinand Series 60
Glashutte Original Senator Sixties - Zenith Elite Classic 39mm
Stowa Antea KS - Nomos Glashutte Ludwig (I wouldnt touch the Nomos with someone elses barge pole personally)

[Ar.parask]

IWC Pilot chronograph - Muhle Glashutte Pilot chronograph
Breitling Navitimer - Sinn 103
Zenith CP-2 - Guinand startfighter or Siduna flyback
Sinn 144 - Guinand Series 60
Glashutte Original Senator Sixties - Zenith Elite Classic 39mm
Stowa Antea KS - Nomos Glashutte Ludwig (I wouldnt touch the Nomos with someone elses barge pole personally)

Anything sinn, guinand can be had for less. Build quality is at least as good with some of the tech such as AR missing.
I do feel that guinand is also staying closer to the the vintage vibe. For example I hate the steel ring between the sinn 103 bezel and the dial crystal (sapphire crystal) with guinand, the transition from the bezel to the crystal is pretty much seamless and better looking.
As far as Siduna is concerned, it really is above and beyond anything I expected. Easily puts to shame much more expensive alternatives.
Having owned all three brands I would probably say that I prefer the Siduna out of all three


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[robert75]

Dornbluth 99.1 - Tourby

Controversial one I own both. Dornbluth start at around 3 -4K Tourby start at about 1.5k. You can extensively customise the movement on a Tourby watch to pretty much whatever you want, both regulate their watches in house, Tourby also do a lot of polish work on their cases and a lot of other stuff. Even with a lot of customisation it may come out slightly less than a Dornbluth. Dornbluth you are paying from an almost build from scratch, both have a personal touch.

Dornbluth - Hentschel Hamburg. Still struggle to see why they are so much more expensive than a Dornbluth.

Breguet type XX - Dodane type 21 not so much in spec but if someone was looking at a military heritage pilots watch of same design without it being a "rip off" then its less than half the price.

[Murdoc]

Panerai Brooklyn Bridge or Parnis

[M4tt]

That is really interesting. I have never come across this piece of info. Would really be interested to do some more reading on this


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Irritatingly, I've just looked and I can't find it now, but during a discussion on this back on WUS a decade or more ago I was pointed at a few articles about the high jinks surrounding giving stuff to people on the astronaut programs which eventually led to a showdown over stamps, some serious disciplinary action and a tightening of rules. I assume that the thread and the articles referred to are still around somewhere, but I can't find them. I do remember it pretty clearly though as it connects with other stuff I'm interested in.

As I remember, Rolex were early to the game and took their usual route of just giving watches away with little expectation of anything. This is an approach they have taken in many fields and so is hardly out of character. I don't see it as a bad thing - Wilsdorf was a remarkable visionary and was half a century ahead of the field when it came to product placement. Likewise GM gave and then rented cars on the very cheap and so on. It was a hard market to penetrate as the original accutrons were infinitely more accurate and issued to anyone who had undertaken the initial training in the modified Starfighters before going on to the X-15, Mercury and Gemini. People always forget that the X15 was a genuine spaceplane and that several later astronauts, including Armstrong and Engle started that way.

[Ctam]

Panerai Brooklyn Bridge or Parnis

Ha ha! That made me chuckle. Yeah, I remember that whole sh*t show with Panerai.

BW,
Chi Kai


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[Stilgoe1972]

I am not quite sure whether you would rely on it in space or not. But it is worth bringing to attention that Wally Shirra, the first man to take a speed master in space, see FOIS inspiration, had a Rolex Daytona 6240 as his personal watch.
So he must have thought that the Daytona was probably ok, especially if he had access to both.


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Most likely didn’t want to take it away with him to work In case he damaged it and wouldn’t get as much resale value:)


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[Itsguy]

Most of these posts are convincing me there’s no substitute for the expensive one unfortunately. But I’ll suggest a few cheaper alternatives, without claiming that they’re much more than similar.

AP 15202 Royal Oak - AP 14790ST Royal Oak It may be a bit late on this front, given current 14790 prices. Or not, given current 15202 prices. The 14790ST has similar ‘ultra-thin’ proportions to the 14790ST, so is a very different proposition to the current 37mm ‘small model’, which is thicker and looks quite different on the wrist. Yes the 15202 is more modern, has a different movement and is 2mm larger, and that does make a difference. But wow that’s an expensive 2mm.

AP Royal Oak 14790ST / VC Overseas Ultra-Thin - VC Overseas 42042 This may seem a stretch as that’s three quite different watches, but bear with me. The 14790st and the 42042 are both thin 37mm integrated bracelet watches by holy trinity brands. They don’t look the same obviously, and the RO is the design classic. However the VC is quite possibly better built, feeling noticeably more solid. It’s also ‘ultra-thin’, something only available for an eye-watering amount in the current Overseas collection. The same? Of course not. But it’s a serious alternative and a huge saving.

AP Royal Oak - Rolex Oysterquartz Of course they don’t look exactly the same, but it’s along the same lines, and having Rolex written on them does no harm. Genta designed the ‘Texan’ from which the OQ is derived, and he did it before he designed the RO, so they’re a genuine Genta / Rolex hybrid, not a Rolex homage. That’s potentially a saving of tens of thousands, for a superbly solid and relatively rare watch.

Vintage Grand Seiko - Seiko Skyliner (or certain Seikomatics, King Seikos, Lord Marvels etc). The GS logo certainly adds to the price, but after 50 years, a well preserved example of the right 60s Seiko can be just as charming and keep time just as well, and some look very similar. In design terms, certain Skyliners in particular look like they could easily have been a GS, and feel as well made. Vintage KS probably just jumped in value too, but remain cheaper than the recent reissue.

[robert75]

Panerai Brooklyn Bridge or Parnis

Bit harsh on Parnis