So, bit of a fantasy post here for me so please humour me! I’ve been looking at cars through recent lockdowns and thinking that I’ll lose half my money in 3 years, I can’t really go anywhere and it’s a fairly pointless purchase. I then got an email from watchfinder advising me of their sale and they have a lovey A Lange & Sohne Langematik Perpetual reduced from £50k to £40k. The most I’ve ever spent on a watch is about £5k, and I currently wear a Fitbit 99% of the time. So the chances of me trying to buy this watch are close to zero.
But, it got me thinking......if I did buy it I’d look at it as an investment. Not necessarily one which appreciates (which I understand is the definition of ‘investment’!), but one which doesn’t lose half my money like the car would. Now, I’d need to know that if I wanted to release my money in the future I could move the thing on. And I can’t imagine that there are millions of buyers for watches at this level. But, given I’ve never had any dealings at this level, who knows, there may be!
So, a question to anyone that has experienced watches of this cost......how easy are they to move on, and how much of a bath do you accept you’ll typically take - taking the ALS as an example?
Thanks!
I suspect we'd need more information on the exact model, but a quick scan on Chrono24 reveals a number in the £30-£40K.
I don't imagine Watchfinder would offer you that much if you tried to sell it back to them in a year...
Unless you can find a COMEX Sub for £5K, don't even think about investment value of watches!
M
Breitling Cosmonaute 809 - What's not to like?
Why would anyone spend that much on a watch. Madness.
Why would anyone spend money on a wrist watch. You don’t really need one to know the time these days. Madness.Originally Posted by MADDOG
Man’s math at its finest!
You could apply your arguement to classic cars just as easily.
The problem with all these "collectables" is that they can indeed hold their value, they can appreciate or the value can drop like a stone. Look how the bottom drops out of parts of the Antique market without warning.
Er yes as I know to my cost. However I prefer the antiques so I am not complaining but yes the are cheaper today than 20 years ago.
Why would you ever buy from a company who just dropped 10,000 off a price. They are still making very good profit no doubt, so they attempted to make over 10K profit for one of their customers in a single sale. They are rip off merchants IMO
A couple of things the OP may not have considered in the cost of ownership:
How much would a £40k/£50k watch cost to insure annually?
How much is a service on said watch currently & how much would/could it be in the future (when out of WF warranty)?
______
Jim.
How much do you think they acquired it for if they could just drop the price by £10k? £30-£35k maybe even less if it’s out of the richemont stash of unsold things.
Most luxury items whether it be a car or watch tend to loose a considerable amount. I’m sure it won’t be an issue to move it on but it might be if you want it to retain more money than someone is willing to pay for it. I suppose some PP and Rolex fare better. At the end of the day it’s horses for courses.
I would say you aren't comparing apples with apples. A 40K car that depreciates would by definition be a non-collectible (read not an investment) and is the price you pay to have a day to day mode of transport. A 40K watch does nothing more than potentially sit on your wrist and tell the time and the more it fits in the realms of a piece that could appreciate, the less you should be putting any mileage on it, but rather keep it in a safe....
So you can't compare the two and as others have said, insurance is definitely something you should factor in - or you could simply take a punt and not bother.
I too am in the camp of those who spent money 20yrs ago on antiques only to see their value plummet in today's market. The upside is that I have enjoyed them every day in my home and if fashion changes they will come good again, but either way, I am not sneaking off to the safe to stroke and gaze at my 40K watch which I can never wear safely in public and can't take me to Auntie Mable's for tea and crumpets.
Why wouldn't people.
In the grand scheme of things £40k is not a lot of money.
I'd rather spend 100K on a watch than on a 100k car (tesla for example) both are items that only get used x amount of time but the watch is A) more relevant for me B) I would use it.
Hypothetically speaking if you have the option of the Car & Watch, i would say weigh up which one you would get more value from. Value can be emotional not just monetary.
The market for Lange's at this price point is not the same as your everyday rolex. Depending how long you hold it for could determine the value you get back on it.
If buying retail 20-25% on the dress models unless its a LTD one. They do have some models going for inflated prices.
With WF i'd always put in a sell request to see what the spread between the buy and sell price is.*
One of my watches MRP is slightly over £30K - I paid about £17K for it in 2006. Go figure. I don’t treat it as an investment seeing as I am “only looking after it for the next generation” :wink:
I get it serviced for about £1K every 5 - 6 years. I was told I could easily get £20K+ on second hand market.
OP: WF tend to be ruthless on margins maybe 100% so they would buy it back at £25K if you are lucky.
40K is a lot of money if you haven't got it.
So is a penny.
Last edited by wileeeeeey; 24th December 2020 at 13:00.
I've done that this year (nearly) for two watches.
The vintage 6239 Daytona bought here is an appreciating asset in my view. I will probably sell it when I retire in 10 years time or so.
The gold 50th anniversary Speedmaster is something I will keep and pass on to my kids.
I think that both watches represent good investments in the longer term. I know the watch market can be fickle and time will tell whether I have made good choices.
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Same logic that would apply to a 4k watch, applies to a 40k or even a 400k watch.
If you can't afford to write off that money completely, then don't spend the money!
At the moment there are watches out that that give folk the warm fuzzy feeling that they are an "investment", but without a crystal ball there's probably better things to spend your money.
Add to that the harsh reality is that Asking price and buy in price are worlds apart, you do have to ask yourself if WF can take a 10k hit, what did they really pay (e.g. I had an offer on a watch I have which i know they'd list for mid to late 20s, 12k offered....).
Even when it comes to something "hot", with a headline asking price of 90-100k, the buy in is about 60-70% that.
There's also a private sale deadzone between 10-50k, too much for the average person (and you can't stick on a CC), yet not fancy enough to appeal to those with deep pockets. (exception being if one were to dump a nautilus/"rare" sub/daytona, well under percieved "market" value)
As to never being able to wear a 40k watch....
Long sleeves are the answer to that, plus most watches out the iconic design bracket all look the same to 90% of the population, If you asked my boss I sometimes wear a "Teletubbies TV watch", and some Swatch looking things.
From 5k to 40k is a big jump.
There are some wonderfully finished saxonia, 1815,Lange 1 etc in the 12-25k bracket. They won’t be most complicated pieces but the finishing will be incredible. Prob get some Saxonia annual calendar for the upper end of 30k.
I would look that these before going straight to 40k!
Interesting thread OP as it’s something I’ve thought about quite a bit and also considered the car analogy as well. We spend around £900 a month on leasing two cars and the way things have been this year it’s made me rethink. I like a nice car but I’ve never been into them enough to want to spend crazy money buying say an 80k car that will be worth 40k quite quickly. It’s what floats your boat I guess.
Whereas I would actually consider a 40k watch if it met certain criteria. For example if I wore it everyday for the next 5 years and decided to sell it as long as it didn’t lose crazy money I’d see that as acceptable. If it held its own or even increased then all the better. I’d get far more enjoyment out of that than a car, I’m sure more people though (not on here maybe) would prefer the car. People spend 3k on an upper class flight and not give it a second thought, or feel they’ve wasted their money, whereas some will spend £800 for an economy seat and 10 hours later fell they’ve saved £2,200.
I’m lucky enough to have acquired some nice really watches and I’ve actually been thinking about selling a 20k watch and two 10k watches and doing this actually move. I probably would have done it already if it wasn’t for the cautious side of me. A 40k watch doesn’t sit quite right, whereas a 20k and two 10k watches do. Silly probably but that’s where I am right now.
I can see the logic but throwing all your eggs into a seriously niche market is begging to have your back door absolutely obliterated.
I sold a motorbike a few months ago as it was rotting on the drive and ended up with a few watches costing more than twice what I sold the bike for. I'm able to enjoy the watches more than any bike right now and later on I could sell one of them to get a different bike once this is all over.
Although they're doing better than my savings accounts and ISA the balloon could go pop any minute and probably will the second you transfer the money!
It is in my world.
F.T.F.A.
I'm the same. I'd be fine with 10 watches costing £10k each but the thought of one £30k or £40k+ watch would scare the life out of me and really weird me out.
It is also in my world,If i had the money yes would love some rose gold watches from certin makers, there is a sales post on the forum that is selling a watch for £600.00 saying not a lot of money but to some people it is, i think the most i have spent on a watch was £450.50 and i was past my self woundering if i had paid so much for a watch.i live in the real world.
There are plenty of people with 40k plus motors who wouldn't if the finance schemes weren't there. With a 40k watch you have to factor in Service costs, depreciation, insurance, wear and tear, not to mention a decent watch winder for a perpetual complication.
IMO 40K watches are for people with huge disposable incomes, extremely cash rich, let’s say millionaires for the sake of argument or folk who have got their priorities completely screwed up.
Don’t become part of the latter group would be my advice!
As said, I wouldn’t want £40k in one watch unless I was rich enough to write off a significant chunk if the market turned. However, having that much tied up in a selection of cheaper watches seems less risky.
It would be interesting to request a quote from Watchfinder to sell them that same watch to give you an idea how much you might lose.
I have a very simple rule of thumb. With luxury goods assume the money is written-off. It’s gone, never to return. Of course, in the real world, that will probably not happen. But it might, and luxury goods are just grown-up toys. Treat them as lovely, as fun, but never as assets.
It’s far more relaxing that way.....you’ll enjoy them more. And yes, I’ve applied this to watches which cost over 30k. Still toys, just very costly ones.
Look at it this way, if you can afford essentially trivial things, no matter how gorgeous, you can afford the loss.
Last edited by paskinner; 24th December 2020 at 14:03.
I would strongly caution against ALS as an investment.
Haven't read all the replies but I think it falls into the category of if you have to ask the question, you shouldn't be doing it.
If I was backing a watch to be ‘safe’ at £40K it’d have to be a particularly popular model - vintage Rolex or sports PP. the ALS is not something I’d buy if I couldn’t afford to write it off.
Consider also having to get specialist insurance - most ‘normal’ policies will have a lower limit.
Also factor in an occasional bottom loosening service.
They said, if your heart is set on it, and you can stomach a £10K or so bath, do it. You only live once.
I have had a couple of £30k watches and have looked at it in a similar way. They were both precious metal Rolex and I didn’t lose a lot when it came to selling. If you want to buy at this level, you need to work out how much you are prepared to lose when you come to sell. If you are happy with the car analogy of losing up to 10k per year, you can probably take your pick, but if you want to sell with little loss, then you need to choose wisely.
Some really interesting replies, many thanks!
So, a little more background to this. I have loads of interests, as I’m sure many of us do, and I can’t afford to buy everything I want so I continually flip stuff - a watch to pay for a bike, a bike to pay for a car etc etc. My view is that my wife buys a pair of shoes for £100 and wears them - they are worth zero (except in SC!). I buy a £1k watch and, if I buy well, I’ll probably get a residual £900 from it plus the pleasure of wearing it for a period of time. I know the £1-5k market well enough to know roughly what I’m expecting to lose on each purchase. I get bored quickly, so the idea of keeping something indefinitely isn’t realistic. And I can’t stomach 50% losses just to experience something that I fancy but isn’t a good seller.
I know nothing about the more expensive segment and wondered if it worked in the same way as the £1-5k sector.
If I could experience a £40k watch, for a couple of years, and have it cost me 5-10% of the watch cost, I’d consider doing it. But, based on the feedback from this thread, that doesn’t sound feasible and seems full of risk. So, this’ll likely remain a fantasy rather than a reality for the foreseeable!
Thanks again!
The only financially sensible thing to do is buy a car outright with cold hard cash, luxury cars are wealth traps and leasing a luxury car can be financial suicide. Watches on the other hand are ok if purchased at a fair price, might even go up in value over time if it’s a Rolex or Patek.
Lange publish their service price list.
Your proposed Langematik Perpetual falls into category 3: a movement service costs 1750Eu. Service & case refurbishment costs 2240Eu. Those are basic prices: any other work required & agreed to is charged pro-rata.
https://www.alange-soehne.com/en/cus...pair/pricelist
https://www.alange-soehne.com/en/cus...verhaul-repair
A replacement strap from Lange is about 300Eu.
(It's a strange thing about straps. Normally, I wouldn't bother too much that a watch I bought pre-owned didn't have a strap from its manufacturer. However, at this price-point, I'd expect a minty, Lange item, even if I was intending to remove it immediately.)
______
Jim.
It's threads like this i miss Skyman...
He would come along and say 40k on a watch is nothing...have one of them for my daily beater.
I do miss him.
If you can afford it and you REALLY like the watch, buy it. You will enjoy it and it’s a fantastic watch to own however that model is not an easily sellable asset and that will definitely reflect its resale price if you intend to move it in on the future. That’s the bind of high value luxury items. What it’s worth is very subjective. Whether you agree with the market or not, Patek and Rolex are the kinds of retained value because of demand and supply, ALS perpetual not so much. Which will leave you having to sell to a professional dealer and take a hit.
FWIW I’m thinking of goi g the other way and changing expensive watch for a car. It’s all a game and do what you need to justify the purchase to the one person that matters, you.
Good luck
I have to ask.....which watch, and which car???
Yes, I was thinking exactly the same!
40k on one watch is madness, buying a few watches at more sensible prices is more appealing to me.
It's all very subjective.
I'm pretty certain that 90% (conservative estimate) of people would balk at paying more than a couple of hundred quid at the most for a watch.
Therefore, the principle is the same really, if you can afford to buy a £40k watch then by all means go for it. No difference to buying a £7k Rolex as the main function of both can be done by a £10 watch and also my mobile phones etc.
Patek to Porsche is being considered. Midlife crisis stuff but if I can release money from the watch it seems a good way to go
If you can afford it, insure it and not get to anal about wearing it, then why not. You are a long time dead, plus you might leave your children/grandchildren a nice inheritance, but even if not, you would have had the pleasure of owning and wearing something quite special.
Whoever does not know how to hit the nail on the head should be asked not to hit it at all.
Friedrich Nietzsche
It might be feasible depending on what the 40k watch was. I wouldn't be dropping 40k on a ALS anytime soon as an investment.
As for not wearing expensive watches, the only time I wouldn't is in London.
Started out with nothing. Still have most of it left.
I think you should be very careful expecting value retention from an expensive watch. At £40k, only Patek would do that, and by no means all of them. I shudder to think what the value loss for the ALS would be, particularly when divided by the number of hours worn / ogled / fondled.
It would also never wear such a watch, I’m just too self conscious, and deep emotional pain is one door-frame away.
Dave
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If you can afford it and want to experience it, then why not? It’s your money and you only live once!
Buying used, a big chunk of the depreciation has taken place already. If I recall correctly, the RRP of this piece is over £60K. If you do need to sell, of course you won’t get back £40K. But I am sure you will still get back a good 60/70% of that. And depending how many years you end up keeping it, it is the “cost of the experience”. Or you keep it and enjoy it for life! Watches are not investments. They are things that bring us joy. That is it.
BW,
Chi Kai
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Just had a look on C24 and you can get a decent example for £30-£35K. Why not go there?
BW,
Chi Kai
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I think at this price/level you have to be looking at either Patek or Rolex and even then, you have to buy carefully if you want to get most or all of your money back. ALS are superb - I've just bought an 1815 chronograph. Finish is way ahead of Patek, but it's not a Patek. Contrary to some other suggestions, I don't consider the money 'written off'. That's just ridiculous. But I know that should I decide to sell in the future, I may get back less than I paid.
I reckon you'd be lucky to get 50% back on it. It's a niche market, in a niche market.
Started out with nothing. Still have most of it left.
I think people are misreading OP’s question - he’s asking how easy it is to liquidate and what residual value you can expect.
Money is tricky. I don’t like blanket statements that it’s madness to buy a £40k watch or you need to be a millionaire to buy one (you don’t). There are so many permutations of people’s economy pointing fingers is .. pointless.
Are you seriously suggesting that, should he buy this watch, the most he will get back for it is £20,000? Well I can tell you unequivocally that you're wrong because I'd give him more than that!
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