Brexit: What will happen with shipping to/from the EU without a deal?

[davidzet]

I'm guessing customs will delay shipments and add taxes.

Any idea of how this might work (fail?)

[Sinnlover]

If the UK leaves the EU on WTO rules it will be the same as buying from any other part of the world. You will be liable for VAT and a handling charge dependant on carrier.

If the UK and EU come to a deal, we will find out when that deal is announced, we just don't know what the deal will look like.

Postage times will be dependant on how long it takes to process everything and apply said VAT etc. They will be doing it for everything sent to the UK from abroad. It will be the same in both directions I would assume

[Ruggertech]

I'm guessing customs will delay shipments and add taxes.

Any idea of how this might work (fail?)

Not so much they will add taxes, more like the European vendor will not charge you whatever the vat is in their country (which they currently do charge you), so you'll pay them less than currently. But then our customs will add our vat instead plus probably a couriers handling charge. So very roughly about £12-15 per transaction worse off assuming similar vat levels.

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[Alansmithee]

I'm guessing customs will delay shipments and add taxes.

Any idea of how this might work (fail?)

Regardless of if a deal is done or not - all couriers are adding additional charges on top as a sort of brexit fee.

As i write this, it appears the custom border will be in the Irish Sea so anything coming and going from Northern Ireland likely to attract processing fee.

[Danstone]

In addition to the above delivery times will be longer. Gone will be next day from Europe and the best you can hope for is about a week to allow the courier to contact you to arrange payment of the VAT and fee before proceeding to deliver. Some are quicker than others and let you phone up and pay as soon as the package clears customs but some insist on waiting until they’ve sent you an invoice by second class mail before they will speak to you.

[Kingstepper]

In addition to the above delivery times will be longer. Gone will be next day from Europe and the best you can hope for is about a week to allow the courier to contact you to arrange payment of the VAT and fee before proceeding to deliver. Some are quicker than others and let you phone up and pay as soon as the package clears customs but some insist on waiting until they’ve sent you an invoice by second class mail before they will speak to you.

Some are quicker and deliver goods before payment.

[RustyBin5]

Not so much they will add taxes, more like the European vendor will not charge you whatever the vat is in their country (which they currently do charge you), so you'll pay them less than currently. But then our customs will add our vat instead plus probably a couriers handling charge. So very roughly about £12-15 per transaction worse off assuming similar vat levels.

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That sounds infinitely better than I’d anticipated

[roxylady]

It will depend on the courier the seller uses for the delivery. I have had deliveries from the USA go through customs and at my door within 48 hours.

[JasonM]

It will depend on the courier the seller uses for the delivery. I have had deliveries from the USA go through customs and at my door within 48 hours.

That’s true, however, they will all be a tad busier soon so I think those days might be numbered.

[Ruggertech]

That sounds infinitely better than I’d anticipated

It's what I've paid when I've bought from the US or Asia. So buying from the EU shouldn't be any different unless they add additional punitive tariffs which wouldn't be in anyones interests.

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[Kingstepper]

Not so much they will add taxes, more like the European vendor will not charge you whatever the vat is in their country (which they currently do charge you), so you'll pay them less than currently. But then our customs will add our vat instead plus probably a couriers handling charge. So very roughly about £12-15 per transaction worse off assuming similar vat levels.

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I’ve bought stuff from Japan, the US and Australia (as 3 examples) and I’ve never known the seller take off any VAT or other local taxes.

[BillyCasper]

I believe that for high volume, low value (~<£150 or thereabouts) transactions where an on-line marketplace or retailer facilitates or supplies goods from outside the UK directly to a UK consumer then the marketplace or retailer will have to register for UK VAT (or have a UK domiciled subsidiary) and will collect and account for VAT at the point of sale rather than point of importation.

Or something like that.

[learningtofly]

Not so much they will add taxes, more like the European vendor will not charge you whatever the vat is in their country (which they currently do charge you), so you'll pay them less than currently. But then our customs will add our vat instead plus probably a couriers handling charge. So very roughly about £12-15 per transaction worse off assuming similar vat levels.

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That would be a result, but can you point to a source for this view? Not trying to be difficult, but I've not seen/heard it suggested before, and it's not the rule at present when it comes to imports from elsewhere.

[Ruggertech]

That would be a result, but can you point to a source for this view? Not trying to be difficult, but I've not seen/heard it suggested before, and it's not the rule at present when it comes to imports from elsewhere.

Don't think you're being difficult at all, a fair question. I dont have a source but was under the impression that part of the current free trade arrangement with the EU was that no additional vat was to be paid upon import. In other words and as an example, if we buy a watch from Germany, German vat is already part of the ticket price we pay, and we pay no more upon its entry to the UK. Which if correct would explain why the same watches advertised in US shops for example are cheaper than European prices. But happy to be corrected/educated.

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[RickS]

That would be a result, but can you point to a source for this view? Not trying to be difficult, but I've not seen/heard it suggested before, and it's not the rule at present when it comes to imports from elsewhere.

Whether or not the seller removes their domestic sales tax is their decision and something the buyer needs to confirm before deciding to purchase. With regard to watches many of the EU sellers remove VAT for sales outside the EU. As an example see Stowa's statement on this matter.

https://www.stowa.de/en/V-A-T+-+Payment+-+Delivery/

[mmgg1988]

I'm interested on what will happen with used watches. Now I believe, if I import a used watch from the EU, no VAT is payable as it was considered paid when purchased in whichever EU country it was originally purchased, so isn't paid again. If you buy from outside of the EU, VAT is payable as is duty technically (though not charged on a single watch generally) as no VAT has been paid in the EU before.

When we leave, I assume all used imports will be treated as VAT payable as they wound not have had UK VAT paid before which will make all non UK used watch purchases considerable more expensive as I don't think German (or wherever's) VAT is reclaimable/deductible unlike with new watches

I may be totally wrong however!

[Kingstepper]

I'm interested on what will happen with used watches. Now I believe, if I import a used watch from the EU, no VAT is payable as it was considered paid when purchased in whichever EU country it was originally purchased, so isn't paid again. If you buy from outside of the EU, VAT is payable as is duty technically (though not charged on a single watch generally) as no VAT has been paid in the EU before.

When we leave, I assume all used imports will be treated as VAT payable as they wound not have had UK VAT paid before which will make all non UK used watch purchases considerable more expensive as I don't think German (or wherever's) VAT is reclaimable/deductible unlike with new watches

I may be totally wrong however!

You’re correct though doesn’t matter whether UK VAT has ever been paid or not.

[robert75]

A lot of watch companies in Germany for example say that for non EU customers the vat is removed at the checkout so I assume that will be the same for us come 2021. The interesting thing will be I think Germany are currently paying less vat than us so that may bump the price up then add on "handling fee" and we could be paying a lot more.

There is also the factor of used watches, there are plenty of stories on the net of people getting stung for import charges buying a used watch. Will be interesting also to see what happens when you want to send a watch back for service especially from a smaller company that doesnt have a dealer to send through.

[Ruggertech]

A lot of watch companies in Germany for example say that for non EU customers the vat is removed at the checkout so I assume that will be the same for us come 2021. The interesting thing will be I think Germany are currently paying less vat than us so that may bump the price up then add on "handling fee" and we could be paying a lot more.

Germany current charges 16% vat, but this is only temporary until the end of the year when it reverts to 19%, this I assume is due to trying to stimulate the market during covid, and of course they could change their plans and extend it. If they dont extend, in the new year we'll have to pay 1% more vat plus handling fee for watches from Germany.

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[Ruggertech]

This is quite interesting, we've been using Germany as an example, but the UK vat rate is less than some EU countries so small savings to be made buying from them.

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[robert75]

This is quite interesting, we've been using Germany as an example, but the UK vat rate is less than some EU countries so small savings to be made buying from them.

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Only problem is most of the decent watchmakers are in Germany.

[Kingstepper]

Germany current charges 16% vat, but this is only temporary until the end of the year when it reverts to 19%, this I assume is due to trying to stimulate the market during covid, and of course they could change their plans and extend it. If they dont extend, in the new year we'll have to pay 1% more vat plus handling fee for watches from Germany.

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They may (now) charge UK rate on sales to UK: -

https://europa.eu/youreurope/busines...inalconsumer-1

Selling goods to the final consumer in another EU country

If you sell goods and send them to consumers in another EU country, you usually need to register your business there and charge VAT at the rate applicable in that country - unless the total value of your sales to that country within the respective tax year falls below the limit set by the country.

The threshold for sales to UK is £75,000.

£75,000 isn't many watches so the differences in EU VAT rates (now) is largely irrelevant for purchases of new watches.

[MartynJC (UK)]

They may (now) charge UK rate on sales to UK: -

https://europa.eu/youreurope/busines...inalconsumer-1



The threshold for sales to UK is £75,000.

£75,000 isn't many watches so the differences in EU VAT rates (now) is largely irrelevant for purchases of new watches.

But the UK is not in the EU.

main effect is to private buyers and sellers including EU will now have to pay VAT + charges on private sales

[Ruggertech]

Only problem is most of the decent watchmakers are in Germany.

But you can probably buy their products all over Europe, or if not, pay a whopping 1% extra vat.

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[Kingstepper]

But the UK is not in the EU.

main effect is to private buyers and sellers including EU will now have to pay VAT + charges on private sales

But we are still playing by their rules until end of year.

Ruggertech said we currently pay German VAT on purchases from there. This isn’t necessarily true and, indeed, unlikely. We will pay UK VAT.

[Ruggertech]

Ruggertech said we currently pay German VAT on purchases from there. This isn’t necessarily true and, indeed, unlikely. We will pay UK VAT.

Whether we pay German vat or UK vat is neither here nor there really. My point was that after December 31st we are not suddenly going to be paying hefty import duties on a watch from Germany. We will pay UK vat at 20% and a handling fee that is typically £12-15, so the watch will cost a little more yes. If at the point of sale you dont ensure the German seller removes the German vat from the price you pay him or her, it will cost a lot more and you are then allowing yourself to get ripped off.

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[Kingstepper]

Whether we pay German vat or UK vat is neither here nor there really. My point was that after December 31st we are not suddenly going to be paying hefty import duties on a watch from Germany. We will pay UK vat at 20% and a handling fee that is typically £12-15, so the watch will cost a little more yes. If at the point of sale you dont ensure the German seller removes the German vat from the price you pay him or her, it will cost a lot more and you are then allowing yourself to get ripped off.

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Maybe neither here nor there, you brought it up. I’m merely correcting a common misconception.

[Ruggertech]

Maybe neither here nor there, you brought it up. I’m merely correcting a common misconception.

Okay, no problem, I used Germany as an example only, the same applies to any country in the EU. Currently if I buy a new watch from a European dealer (I've no idea what happens with used watches from private individuals) I pay no extra vat or handling charge upon its entry to the UK. Vat, whether that countries or the UK's is charged at source, which one, as I said before, is neither here nor there for the purposesof discussion. After the 31st, that vat should no longer apply when I buy it, but I will have to pay it when it arrives here, so apart from the handling charge, it shouldn't be any more expensive give or take small differences in individual countries rates. A £15 handling charge would be a bit fruity on a 30 quid Casio, but inconsequential on a 10k Rolex.

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[RustyBin5]

If buying a used watch from EU private seller after 31/12 .... that’s where the hurt is - buying new won’t be such a stark difference

[Saint-Just]

Okay, no problem, I used Germany as an example only, the same applies to any country in the EU. Currently if I buy a new watch from a European dealer (I've no idea what happens with used watches from private individuals) I pay no extra vat or handling charge upon its entry to the UK. Vat, whether that countries or the UK's is charged at source, which one, as I said before, is neither here nor there for the purposesof discussion. After the 31st, that vat should no longer apply when I buy it, but I will have to pay it when it arrives here, so apart from the handling charge, it shouldn't be any more expensive give or take small differences in individual countries rates. A £15 handling charge would be a bit fruity on a 30 quid Casio, but inconsequential on a 10k Rolex.

Actually I do not know what WTO taxes are on watches, but it seems to me that the amount we shall pay will depend on whether there is a trade deal, or not.

[Ruggertech]

Actually I do not know what WTO taxes are on watches, but it seems to me that the amount we shall pay will depend on whether there is a trade deal, or not.

In the UK we dont pay import taxes on watches from anywhere, just UK vat. So yes, we do know really.

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[blackal]

If buying a used watch from EU private seller after 31/12 .... that’s where the hurt is - buying new won’t be such a stark difference

That would be my understanding - Unless you can prove that VAT has been paid in EU prior to our exit, maybe?

A VAT receipt from the original retailer might do it? - but I'm guessing at that.

[Saint-Just]

In the UK we dont pay import taxes on watches from anywhere, just UK vat. So yes, we do know really.

Actually no, you don't.

It may indeed be the case that there are no taxes on import under WTO rules.
But you cannot state that is the case because of the UK's current situation.
Very few countries trade with the EU under WTO rules, and Australia is a notable exception only because very little trade is done between the 2 entities).
I am not aware of a country that makes watches that doesn't have a trade agreement of some sort with the EU.

[MartynJC (UK)]

In the UK we dont pay import taxes on watches from anywhere, just UK vat. So yes, we do know really.

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exactly. So after 31/12 we pay VAT on import from any foreign country including those in EU as we do currently from USA and others outside of EU. (Not just watches either). And we all walk through the red channel to declare VAT and duty from our holidays to the US right?

main effect is to private buyers and sellers including EU will now have to pay VAT + charges on private sales

[BillyCasper]

I vaguely recall that the EU duty on watches is something like €0.80 per item. I believe that this level of duty will be the U.K.’s starting point. I think the U.K. published its proposed tariff schedules ages ago and they were the same as the EU’s current schedules. Duties on goods except cars tend to be minuscule. Goods on some agricultural goods tend to be astronomical. The WTO does not set rates of duty.

What I’m assuming will happen, but don’t know is:

If a U.K. consumer buys a watch directly from a German retailer then:

1. If the German retailer’s business model is to frequently sell directly to U.K. consumers then the German retailer will quite possibly be, or encouraged to be, registered for U.K. VAT and collect U.K. VAT at point of sale. The goods will go on their way relatively smoothly with a shipping document stuck on the package so that HMRC customs isn’t inundated. Not sure about the €0.80 duty, perhaps below a threshold for collection.

2. If the German retailer is not registered for U.K. VAT, then it will be sold for export net of German or U.K. VAT and be cleared through customs by an agent, Royal Mail, DHL, Etc and U.K. VAT, the duty and clearing charge will be collected on import.

I’ve already received a small package from Germany, that was VAT zero rated for export to a non-EU country (U.K.). VAT, duty, clearance wasn’t collected on import to the U.K., I guess it was below a value threshold.

There’s always the joy of a .gov.UK website to read to get the full facts, but I glaze over after the first paragraph or so.


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[Ruggertech]

exactly. So after 31/12 we pay VAT on import from any foreign country including those in EU as we do currently from USA and others outside of EU. (Not just watches either). And we all walk through the red channel to declare VAT and duty from our holidays to the US right?

Your first point correct yes as I see it, but happy to be corrected. Second point, I haven't been to the US since 1995 and only brought back what I took away with me, so perhaps someone else can answer that question.

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[Ruggertech]

Actually no, you don't.

It may indeed be the case that there are no taxes on import under WTO rules.
But you cannot state that is the case because of the UK's current situation.
Very few countries trade with the EU under WTO rules, and Australia is a notable exception only because very little trade is done between the 2 entities).
I am not aware of a country that makes watches that doesn't have a trade agreement of some sort with the EU.

Point taken, we'll have to wait and see.

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[mrushton]

I was just reading that US made bicycles are now arriving with a 25% import tax owing the Airbus/Boeing dispute. This doesnt apply to bikes produced in the far east for US firms, just the more exotic hand built ones that are made in the US. Who knew? But poss an indication of how things could go

https://www.dw.com/en/airbus-boeing-...now/a-49442616

[Saint-Just]

I was just reading that US made bicycles are now arriving with a 25% import tax owing the Airbus/Boeing dispute. This doesnt apply to bikes produced in the far east for US firms, just the more exotic hand built ones that are made in the US. Who knew? But poss an indication of how things could go

https://www.dw.com/en/airbus-boeing-...now/a-49442616

Those are punitive taxes approved by WTO in the dispute between those 2 manufacturers, just like the US taxed Scottish whiskies and French Roquefort following a previous WTO judgement on the same dispute.

The weakness of the process is the delay between the alleged infraction and the judgement, as it can take several years. That is why the EU demands a resolution system that will allow the other party to impose punitive tariffs or/and taxes where they choose until the divergence has been rectified.

[torromoto]

Same works the other way round obviously..Buying watches from the UK (and all other items) will be hit with 21% vat + custom handling fees. Buying a watch from UK will be too expensive for after vat and fees are applied, so unless I pick up the watch in person buying watches will be a NO go......

Guillermo

Don't think you're being difficult at all, a fair question. I dont have a source but was under the impression that part of the current free trade arrangement with the EU was that no additional vat was to be paid upon import. In other words and as an example, if we buy a watch from Germany, German vat is already part of the ticket price we pay, and we pay no more upon its entry to the UK. Which if correct would explain why the same watches advertised in US shops for example are cheaper than European prices. But happy to be corrected/educated.

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[Ruggertech]

Same works the other way round obviously..Buying watches from the UK (and all other items) will be hit with 21% vat + custom handling fees. Buying a watch from UK will be too expensive for after vat and fees are applied, so unless I pick up the watch in person buying watches will be a NO go......

Guillermo

Indeed it does, yes. Picking up in person and not declaring it is tax evasion I'd have thought, but that's your choice, good luck.

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[MartynJC (UK)]

Same works the other way round obviously..Buying watches from the UK (and all other items) will be hit with 21% vat + custom handling fees. Buying a watch from UK will be too expensive for after vat and fees are applied, so unless I pick up the watch in person buying watches will be a NO go......

Guillermo

You can buy trinkets VAT free in UK - UK has already agreed and this is already true whatever trade agreement is reached - no more tax free shopping UNLESS the seller ships goods directly back to the buyers home address. So you then pay import tax whatever that is for your country (is it 21% for Netherlands?).

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/d...m-january-2021

“VAT Retail Export Scheme
As part of these changes, VAT refunds for overseas visitors in British shops will be removed. Overseas visitors will still be able to buy items VAT-free in store and have them sent direct to their overseas addresses, while the costly system of claiming VAT refunds on items they take home in their luggage will be ended.”

So VAT deducted in UK then taxes paid in country of import - probably adds 1% + delivery charges and “admin fees” from shippers. Same as if you buy from the US ?

This may stop certain tourists popping over and buying up the most desirable pieces and strapping them on one wrist to ship them home as they can’t buy them VAT free if not shipped home. How this is being policed goodness knows.

[davidzet]

That would be my understanding - Unless you can prove that VAT has been paid in EU prior to our exit, maybe?

A VAT receipt from the original retailer might do it? - but I'm guessing at that.

This I hate. A watch that's traded 5x in 2 years pays taxes 5x vs the same watch traded once? There should be a "used" exemption, but I guess they are worried about games. The Dutch (where I live) seem to like taxing anything that moves (as long as it's not a large corporation!), which really sucks for buying used...

[MartynJC (UK)]

Received this in email from a shipper I use

VAT and duty post 31 Dec 2020. Seems like it’s all decided:

• Yes. Goods entering the UK will be charged Import VAT and Import Duty.
• Goods leaving the UK for the EU will be charged Import Duty & Import VAT at EU-set rates.
• The recipient will be liable for these.

[Kingstepper]

This I hate. A watch that's traded 5x in 2 years pays taxes 5x vs the same watch traded once? There should be a "used" exemption, but I guess they are worried about games. The Dutch (where I live) seem to like taxing anything that moves (as long as it's not a large corporation!), which really sucks for buying used...

Makes sense to me - think of it as a tax on a trade, not a particular watch.

[Seiko7A38]

Received this in email from a shipper I use

VAT and duty post 31 Dec 2020. Seems like it’s all decided:

• Yes. Goods entering the UK will be charged Import VAT and Import Duty.

Seems like it's already been implemented too.

I just collected a parcel from Buyee Japan from my local Royal Mail depot.
Contained a couple of cheap Orient quartz chronographs, total value 23,225 Yen (approx £166.50).
So I was expecting, based on current exchange rates, to have to pay around £40 quid (20% VAT + £8.00 Clearance charges).
I have a fairly good relationship with the CSP staff, so having seen it had arrived @ 7:30 this morning, but was pending charges ....
I rocked up around 9:15 without waiting for their card advising the actual charges (which probably wouldn't have come till Monday).

Bit of a comparative shocker.

Import Duty: £21.21
VAT: £39.60
Clearance Fee: £8.00
Total: £68.81 !!

[MartynJC (UK)]

Seems like it's already been implemented too.

I just collected a parcel from Buyee Japan from my local Royal Mail depot.
Contained a couple of cheap Orient quartz chronographs, total value 23,225 Yen (approx £166.50).
So I was expecting, based on current exchange rates, to have to pay around £40 quid (20% VAT + £8.00 Clearance charges).
I have a fairly good relationship with the CSP staff, so having seen it had arrived @ 7:30 this morning, but was pending charges ....
I rocked up around 9:15 without waiting for their card advising the actual charges (which probably wouldn't have come till Monday).

Bit of a comparative shocker.

Import Duty: £21.21
VAT: £39.60
Clearance Fee: £8.00
Total: £68.81 !!

There is no UK duty on watches or maybe a few pence. I think they are taking the p”ss. Perhaps it was incorrectly declared?

There is already a trade agreement with Japan - duty is only 20p per item for an automatic base metal watch on import from Japan.

https://www.look-up-commodity-code-t...9102210000/JP/



https://www.gov.uk/look-up-import-ta...1-january-2021

[lughugger]

There is no UK duty on watches or maybe a few pence. I think they are taking the p�ss. Perhaps it was incorrectly declared?

There is already a trade agreement with Japan - duty is only 20p per item for an automatic base metal watch on import from Japan.

https://www.look-up-commodity-code-t...9102210000/JP/



https://www.gov.uk/look-up-import-ta...1-january-2021

Quartz watches are duty free from Japan. Whoever submitted the entry used the wrong preference coding.


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[cart3rlfc]

Just to resurrect this thread, I'm about to buy a used watch from Sweden, it will be posted today.

If I receive the watch after the 31st (highly likely) will I still have to pay vat? Or because its shipped before brexit will I be exempt?

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[Saint-Just]

Just to resurrect this thread, I'm about to buy a used watch from Sweden, it will be posted today.

If I receive the watch after the 31st (highly likely) will I still have to pay vat? Or because its shipped before brexit will I be exempt?

In theory you should be exempt.

But you know the saying: In theory, theory and practice are identical.
In practice however...