2 holes blown outward on my 67 plate Golf DSG gearbox casing.! Update

[keitht]

My wife complained to me the other day that the normally super smooth DSG on our 67 plate Golf Alltrack was a little snatchy at times.
I, of course ignored it for 3 days, assuming she was just driving it badly, or the colder weather was affecting it in someway. She wasn't driving it anyway as she was working from home.
She had also mentioned she thought she saw some oil on the wheel.

On Friday I took it for a decent drive to see if i could replicate the problem....yep, it was definitely snatchy and jumping in the low gears. especially around 2000-2800 rpm.

Once home, I had a look underneath, nothing obvious, into the bonnet and after a little searching around with a torch I found a piece of aluminium, that looked remarkably like a piece of casing.
Couldn't be I thought, then I spotted a smaller piece, right down on the cross member. I took the undertray off to see if I could get a better look from underneath, but nothing.
I then took the battery and battery tray off, but still nothing obvious.

I reach down into the bay and felt along the edge of the gearbox casing, and there it was, a big jagged hole, then slightly further down, another.
Halfway up the casing along the casings join...the piece i found definitely looks like its been broken out from the inside.

The car has 56k on it, full service history, DSG oil and filter done, and just been serviced by VW dealer about 500mls ago.

I shall be ringing VW customer service on |Monday, I have already tried talking to the VW dealer we bought it from, but the Sales manager was very dismissive, defensive and unhelpful.
Once I had mentioned it was purchased in October last year as a used vehicle, she immediately stated that the warranty would have expired and I should contact my local dealer.
She did not take the car reg, my details, or anything else.
We have done less than 8000k since purchase, and whilst I freely admit that the warranty has expired, a holed gearbox casing is not a common occurrence.
I am no versed on the DSG gearbox and/or its maintenance, but the last people to work on it were selling dealer, VW Listers.

Anybody on here with some possible causes perhaps and where I might stand on its repair/replacement?
I managed to get a( poor ) picture of the smaller of the 2 holes with my phone
The piece I found looks like it may be the outside of the casing dowel holes? and I think from the hole I cannot get a picture of.

[TKH]

not good but......out of warranty does not necessarily mean that you wont get a claim through or at least a decent contribution..

essentially these are policy / goodwill claims that manufacturers pay to keep customers happy and reputation in tact...

you need to demonstrate a solid service history using genuine parts correct oils and no gaps in history..

and it sounds like you fit that criteria well...

I have had successful claims on an A45 Gearbox 6 months out of warranty and my brother a gearbox on an AMG GT one claim was 6k the other 10k +.....and I have processed many claims for both Ford & GM for VCAN / Goodwill 'scale' claims ...this is where a % contribution is made based on age / mileage and history...

this might sound odd but I would be inclined to ring VW direct they will respond and steer the process with the repairing dealer..

VW.
0800 333 666

Opening hours:
Mon - Fri: 8:00 AM - 6:00 PM
Sat: 10:00 AM - 4:00 PM

[tixntox]

Anything like these?
https://www.eco-torque.co.uk/post/vw...arbox-problems

[keitht]

Thanks for the responses gents, I shall be ringing VW direct tomorrow.

No nothing like those listed., no warning lights at all.
I used my Vagcom to check for fault codes after my Friday test drive and got the following.


P1898 00 Clutch 1
Function restriction

P1899 00 Clutch 2
Function restriction

P0C29 00

Control circuit for Aux trans Fluid pump.

I suspect all the above are due to lack of oil which has come out of the holes.

[snowman]

not good but......out of warranty does not necessarily mean that you wont get a claim through or at least a decent contribution..

Will be interested to see how you get on.

My car's Infotainment system died completely one month out of warranty - they offered me £400 off a £1900 repair bill (and it turned out what they were offering for that eye-watering amount was a 'factory reconditioned unit'!)

The dealer was helpful (fitting my used replacement for about £200 - I guess they could have done it for less, but the cost was far, far less than VW), but VW themselves were surly and unhelpful and I wouldn't buy another car from them, personally.

Keith - Have you had the oil in the Haldex changed over the years? I just had mine done (apparently it's not a default service item, but should be done every 3 years apparently) - I suspect you'll not get much joy if you haven't.

M

[Omegamanic]

Which engine Alltrack?

surely VW will step in. a 67 plate is what, from Sept 2017 onwards? I though they had a 3 year 60k factory warranty in any case.

& Is the DSG itself not subject to a longer warranty like it is in AUS/US/China?

[DC11]

As Omegamanic says, 67 plate suggests it may still be under the original warranty? What’s the registration date?

[Tooks]

If it was purchased from Listers last October, was it an Approved ‘Das Welt Auto’ car?

If so, it should have come with a 2 year unlimited mileage warranty which will cover the DSG box as well.

[Michael 38]

Which engine Alltrack?

surely VW will step in. a 67 plate is what, from Sept 2017 onwards? I though they had a 3 year 60k factory warranty in any case.

& Is the DSG itself not subject to a longer warranty like it is in AUS/US/China?

The gearbox warranty is only 3 years in the uk they wormed their way out of extending it in Europe and the uk

[100thmonkey]

Those gearboxes are made of cheese, mine went twice on the Golf R and I didn’t hammer it

[keitht]

Manufacturers warranty is out, and as I found out afterwards not all VW dealers subscribe to the Das Welt Auto 2 yr warranty scheme.

The car was advertised on the VW website, and I made a reasonable assumption that all cars listed in their used vehicle section were included in the benefits they offer for the used vehicles.

Rather naively I had already done the deal before I was was made aware that its not obligatory for VW dealers to offer the same terms.
Listers only give a 12mth warranty, which mostly ran concurrentlywith the original 3 yr one anyway.
They also don't offer the 2yr servicing nor 2yr free MOT that others do.
I have previously always bought my VW cars from VW Swindon ( Inchcape ) and have always had the Das Welt Auto benefits, so it never occurred to me to ask.

Could be an expensive lesson to learn.
I will be getting straight on to VW UK once I have dropped the kids off at school.
Wish me luck!

[adrianw]

There is no oil coming from the hole, which suggests that the casting is just a cover, of course it could mean that something has flown off inside and damaged it, but should be repairable, I have welded up worse (usually depends on how much silicon their is in the casting) If your dealer doesn't want to know a decent gearbox repairer should be able to put it right, or get another from a breaker.

Unfortunately because of the state of our roads, it is easily possible to snatch the drivetrain on a pothole and do this sort of damage.

[keitht]

There is no oil coming from the hole, which suggests that the casting is just a cover, of course it could mean that something has flown off inside and damaged it, but should be repairable, I have welded up worse (usually depends on how much silicon their is in the casting) If your dealer doesn't want to know a decent gearbox repairer should be able to put it right, or get another from a breaker.

Unfortunately because of the state of our roads, it is easily possible to snatch the drivetrain on a pothole and do this sort of damage.

The picture is the upper most hole, the lower one which i can't get a pic of, definitely has/had oil coming from it, and there is oil on the underside of the tray etc at the bottom of the engine bay.
I had thought maybe flying debris damage from the road, but after taking off the under-tray, which has no damage, and the location of the holes, its unlikely i think.
Any stones etc would have had to ricochet off several cross members and components, then hit the casing half way up the engine bay and in two spots, one above the other.

Implausible, but not impossible I suppose.
Whatever the outcome, its going to have to be inspected first, so I will have to get it to a VW garage in any event.

[adrianw]

The picture is the upper most hole, the lower one which i can't get a pic of, definitely has/had oil coming from it, and there is oil on the underside of the tray etc at the bottom of the engine bay.
I had thought maybe flying debris damage from the road, but after taking off the under-tray, which has no damage, and the location of the holes, its unlikely i think.
Any stones etc would have had to ricochet off several cross members and components, then hit the casing half way up the engine bay and in two spots, one above the other.

Implausible, but not impossible I suppose.
Whatever the outcome, its going to have to be inspected first, so I will have to get it to a VW garage in any event.

By pothole damage I was talking about transmission snatch, on racecars the slicks have so much grip that when they let go and than grip again the snatch can break everything in the drivetrain, diff or gearbox, to a much lesser amount this can happen when you go over a pothole on the road.

[keitht]

By pothole damage I was talking about transmission snatch, on racecars the slicks have so much grip that when they let go and than grip again the snatch can break everything in the drivetrain, diff or gearbox, to a much lesser amount this can happen when you go over a pothole on the road.

Apologies, I understand what you mean now.

[Brian]

Very interested in how you get on keith with inchcape. Good luck.

For what its worth I agree with you as a consumer - holes in gearboxes have no place in product wear and tear.

I think that I would adopt the approach that they have to prove that the product or that the actions that they took at the service (500 miles ago) were not at fault.

Is yours the 7 speed wet DSG do you know ?

Brian

[julian2002]

In my recent search for a 4 seat convertible my choice was initially an Audi S5 - it ticked all the boxes, fast, good looking, rag top, automatic, lots of tech amongst the usual E350 and 430 suspects. I joined facebook and redit groups for all 3 to see what the ownership experience was like. For months the Audi group had 2 or 3 DSG gearboxes let go every week, with tales of woe regarding bills between 1500 and 7000 UKP. While I still love the idea of an S5 convertible I ended up with an E350 as on balance the Mercedes groups had less big ticket issues than both Audi and BMW. Touch wood things are good so far...

Doing my due diligence I discovered that the DSG box was very sensitive to not being serviced every 35k miles and that if it was left standing for any length of time it could fail randomly even with a pristine service history. Personally I'd not touch a VAG car with a DSG unless it was a lease. I briefly looks at an m3 e93 which also has a DSG but is apparently massively reliable, but the TAX, fuel consumption and engine issues put me off.

[adrianw]

Very interested in how you get on keith with inchcape. Good luck.

For what its worth I agree with you as a consumer - holes in gearboxes have no place in product wear and tear.

I think that I would adopt the approach that they have to prove that the product or that the actions that they took at the service (500 miles ago) were not at fault.

Is yours the 7 speed wet DSG do you know ?

Brian

i cant see that, when servicing a car they will only carry out work to the schedule, if they discover any issues they will report and it would be the owners decision to rectify. I would expect a DSG box to be generating codes if it thought it had an issue.

The issue of gearboxes made out of chocolate is something completely different and may end up as a fit for purpose argument with VAG.

[Michael 38]

In my recent search for a 4 seat convertible my choice was initially an Audi S5 - it ticked all the boxes, fast, good looking, rag top, automatic, lots of tech amongst the usual E350 and 430 suspects. I joined facebook and redit groups for all 3 to see what the ownership experience was like. For months the Audi group had 2 or 3 DSG gearboxes let go every week, with tales of woe regarding bills between 1500 and 7000 UKP. While I still love the idea of an S5 convertible I ended up with an E350 as on balance the Mercedes groups had less big ticket issues than both Audi and BMW. Touch wood things are good so far...

Doing my due diligence I discovered that the DSG box was very sensitive to not being serviced every 35k miles and that if it was left standing for any length of time it could fail randomly even with a pristine service history. Personally I'd not touch a VAG car with a DSG unless it was a lease. I briefly looks at an m3 e93 which also has a DSG but is apparently massively reliable, but the TAX, fuel consumption and engine issues put me off.

I would agree with this after owning a modern golf with a dsg box I wouldn’t touch another one that was out of warranty or wasn’t leased as a side issue I looked at getting an aftermarket warranty for mine and none of them would cover the 2 common failures namely the clutches and the mechatronic unit both of which are about £1400 each

[shoppy]

On the other end of the extreme my my Eos convertible with the 1st gen DSG is going strong had its 1st 40,000 mile DSG oil and filter change. Coming up to 13 years old and still going strong.

Fingers crossed VW play ball and help out or the original dealer will lean in and help rectify the issue.

[ptcoll]

Might be worth getting a gearbox expert to have a look and do a report, although this could be costly.

Pete

[Tooks]

On the other end of the extreme my my Eos convertible with the 1st gen DSG is going strong had its 1st 40,000 mile DSG oil and filter change. Coming up to 13 years old and still going strong.

Fingers crossed VW play ball and help out or the original dealer will lean in and help rectify the issue.

I’ve had 3 DSG box cars, 2 of them the 6 speed wet clutch types on Golfs, and the other being the 7 speed dry clutch type in a Polo.

I covered nearly 100k miles in both the Golfs, with only a tiny oil leak in one of them, which was fixed under warranty.

The 7 speed box in the Polo GTI needed new clutch packs after 20k miles, again covered under warranty and the fault didn’t come back in the subsequent 50k miles I owned the car.

I’m not sure whether my experience means DSG boxes are good or bad, but I’m left with the impression that the 6 speed wet clutch types feel more long lived than the 7 speeds.

They’re good boxes generally I suppose, but they are complex bits of kit.

[keitht]

Turns out the selling dealer did the DSG service at 48K, just before we bought it, so much for the DAs Welt Auto approved used car statements by VW.

First of all, it was stated by VW this was late...should be 40k, now Listers are saying it was done 32k miles early as the box in our car should be done at 80K.

The info on the internet is confusing, but I can only find reference to the Golf R being equipped with the DQ381 box at this time. I am looking for clarification on this.

The car was picked up last night and is going to VW Swindon this morning, and I will await their investigation and subsequent report.

Listers stance at present is pretty much go f**k yourselves!


For those that are interested I shall keep you posted.


Just as an aside, I have had DSG Transporters for years....4 now, all with around 100k on and never had any trouble at all.

[watchlovr]

Thanks for updating Keith.
I’m now back at VW in a dsg Golf so obs I’m interested in the outcome.
I must say from your photos it looks like a casing failure causing oil to leak out rather than an internal explosion causing damage.

[mattleicester]

Casings don't fail, something has broken internally , from the limited picture it looks near the final drive , if the bearings had gone I would have expected it to be noisy also, that looks at minimum it will be a rebuild and weld the casing up but that will not be considered these days, New or second hand gearbox which will be a wallet draining bill. If you can't get a contribution from the dealer you will need to entrust it to a recommended indie .no Xmas good news I'm afraid

[Hood]

Does the Audi use the same box?
Was thinking of a 2 year old S3 when my present lease is up.

[julian2002]

Does the Audi use the same box?
Was thinking of a 2 year old S3 when my present lease is up.

Yes although there may be slight changes. I love the idea of Audi S and RS cars but unless you can guarantee that it's been serviced correctly and driven sympathetically I'd be loathe to pay for one with my own money out of warranty.

[Kingstepper]

Thanks for updating Keith.
I’m now back at VW in a dsg Golf so obs I’m interested in the outcome.
I must say from your photos it looks like a casing failure causing oil to leak out rather than an internal explosion causing damage.

Any idea why it should fail? Metal fatigue then spontaneously falling apart just seems unlikely.

[Brian]

Any idea why it should fail? Metal fatigue then spontaneously falling apart just seems unlikely.

One scenario:

gearbox oil changed but didnt bother to check or top up/change mechatronics fluid. car was driven hard before the service and fluid levels down - loss of pressure - clutch solenoids and selector/gear crash on an upchange from rapid deceleration.
Snatchy changes before failure.



There are many more but cases holing is catastrophic and thats why I suggest something was/wasn't done at the last service.

B

[keitht]

Just had a call from VW UK, they had confirmed the gearbox is the DQ381 which does indeed have an 80k service interval.
Not sure why Listers serviced it at 48K...not like a main dealer to do work they don't need too.

I have been allocated a Customer Relations Manager to deal with the case, but as you might expect, nobody can/will do anything until the investigation is complete.
As the car is a month out of warranty VW have politely declined to offer a courtesy car.

So now I wait, my wife has my Van to go to work and I am stuck out in the sticks.
Good job there is nowhere to go at present.

[Michael 38]

Just had a call from VW UK, they had confirmed the gearbox is the DQ381 which does indeed have an 80k service interval.
Not sure why Listers serviced it at 48K...not like a main dealer to do work they don't need too.

I have been allocated a Customer Relations Manager to deal with the case, but as you might expect, nobody can/will do anything until the investigation is complete.
As the car is a month out of warranty VW have politely declined to offer a courtesy car.

So now I wait, my wife has my Van to go to work and I am stuck out in the sticks.
Good job there is nowhere to go at present.

I had a smiler scenario with my old focus there was a bodge job done by a Ford dealer in warranty but it was just out ford might pay as a good will gesture but I would have to pay for all the investigation work myself so I told them were to go and paid a local garage to do the work instead

[JonRA]

Just had a call from VW UK, they had confirmed the gearbox is the DQ381 which does indeed have an 80k service interval.
Not sure why Listers serviced it at 48K...not like a main dealer to do work they don't need too.

I have been allocated a Customer Relations Manager to deal with the case, but as you might expect, nobody can/will do anything until the investigation is complete.
As the car is a month out of warranty VW have politely declined to offer a courtesy car.

So now I wait, my wife has my Van to go to work and I am stuck out in the sticks.
Good job there is nowhere to go at present.

At least things are underway now. Not offering a courtesy car isn't a surprise but if it comes to a goodwill contribution to sort it out, I hope it is a generous one. Good luck.

[watchlovr]

Any idea why it should fail? Metal fatigue then spontaneously falling apart just seems unlikely.

Nothing springs to mind from looking at the photos.
Maybe I’m completely wrong, the photos are at an angle.

[mattleicester]

Nothing springs to mind from looking at the photos.
Maybe I’m completely wrong, the photos are at an angle.

Can you upload a wider shot so we know which part of the gearbox it is, is it near the driveshaft area ?

[IAmATeaf]

Can you upload a wider shot so we know which part of the gearbox it is, is it near the driveshaft area ?

The cars now with VW?

[mattleicester]

The cars now with VW?

OK

[keitht]

As mentioned the car is now with VW Swindon for investigation.

That was the best pic I could get tbh, as I had to hold my phone down at almost arms length, over the wing and into the bay to get the shot.

Its about halfway up the engine bay, N/S facing the bulkhead. Opposite, what I think is the ABS pump/motor.
The larger hole is round the casing a little more so I cannot get a shot from the top, nor could I see it from underneath.


I am going to ask VW for a oil sample from the the box, as I wonder whether the correct oil was used.

[keitht]

VW Swindon have confirmed on Friday just gone, that the damage was caused indeed by an internal gearbox failure, though they have not disclosed exactly what the failure was and what may have caused it.


After a few days of deliberation and the request for more pictures and details from Swindon, VW have offered to make a contribution to the cost of repair.


Cost to replace the box and associated parts to inc labour is £5950

I am pleased to say that VW is taking the bulk of this cost at £5480.41, with us to pay the balance of £469.20, which, whilst I would obviously prefer to pay nothing, does seem to reflect the fact we have had 8000 miles of motoring in the vehicle so is probably fair

VW Listers ( Stratford on Avon ) have not even bothered to contact me regarding the issue, but they did respond to a call from VW and still seem to be insisting we must have hit something, thanks for your outstanding customer care Tim!
I suspect pursuing them for the balance I have to pay will be futile, but I will try anyway.

Many thanks to all those who have offered advice and help.

Regards Keith

[Kingstepper]

Excellent result!

[Franky Four Fingers]

VW Swindon have confirmed on Friday just gone, that the damage was caused indeed by an internal gearbox failure, though they have not disclosed exactly what the failure was and what may have caused it.


After a few days of deliberation and the request for more pictures and details from Swindon, VW have offered to make a contribution to the cost of repair.


Cost to replace the box and associated parts to inc labour is £5950

I am pleased to say that VW is taking the bulk of this cost at £5480.41, with us to pay the balance of £469.20, which, whilst I would obviously prefer to pay nothing, does seem to reflect the fact we have had 8000 miles of motoring in the vehicle so is probably fair

VW Listers ( Stratford on Avon ) have not even bothered to contact me regarding the issue, but they did respond to a call from VW and still seem to be insisting we must have hit something, thanks for your outstanding customer care Tim!
I suspect pursuing them for the balance I have to pay will be futile, but I will try anyway.

Many thanks to all those who have offered advice and help.

Regards Keith

Keith, I know you’re going to but you paying the 400 quid is to your advantage. If they contributed 100% to the repair then in the event of a subsequent failure you’d be on your own. Any contribution you make towards an out of warranty repair will almost certainly give you at least a years warranty. I don’t know VW parts warranty terms it could be 2 years however it’s worth it.

[wileeeeeey]

Excellent result. Save yourself the time and headache and ignore the balance. Just leave the dealership the appropriate reviews where you can. Didn't expect main dealers not to sell a used car with the brand's advertised used guarantee.

[mattleicester]

VW Swindon have confirmed on Friday just gone, that the damage was caused indeed by an internal gearbox failure, though they have not disclosed exactly what the failure was and what may have caused it.


After a few days of deliberation and the request for more pictures and details from Swindon, VW have offered to make a contribution to the cost of repair.


Cost to replace the box and associated parts to inc labour is £5950

I am pleased to say that VW is taking the bulk of this cost at £5480.41, with us to pay the balance of £469.20, which, whilst I would obviously prefer to pay nothing, does seem to reflect the fact we have had 8000 miles of motoring in the vehicle so is probably fair

VW Listers ( Stratford on Avon ) have not even bothered to contact me regarding the issue, but they did respond to a call from VW and still seem to be insisting we must have hit something, thanks for your outstanding customer care Tim!
I suspect pursuing them for the balance I have to pay will be futile, but I will try anyway.

Many thanks to all those who have offered advice and help.

Regards Keith

Result

[gshort67]

I’d be happy with that


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[keitht]

Keith, I know you’re going to but you paying the 400 quid is to your advantage. If they contributed 100% to the repair then in the event of a subsequent failure you’d be on your own. Any contribution you make towards an out of warranty repair will almost certainly give you at least a years warranty. I don’t know VW parts warranty terms it could be 2 years however it’s worth it.

Interesting, I didn't know that.

TBH, its a good result whichever way I look at it, the contribution being made is great, and the no quibble prompt way in which it was dealt with saves me the hassle and stress of pursing it via legal means had no offer been made.

I should say that I am really happy with the way VW Swindon have dealt with this matter for me. ( I have bought lots of cars from them over the years, so its nice to see customer loyalty rewarded )

[tixntox]

It's good that they are taking most of the hit but I won't be going anywhere near a DSG gearbox anytime soon (see post #3). I'll stick with my old Jatco box!

[Sweepinghand]

I’d be v pleased - ensure that you get a full black and white guarantee on the work outlining exactly how long the gearbox is covered for in either time or miles
This would aid (imo) any future sale


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[amnesia]

I'd guess that the £480 is labour to swap the parts so that the dealer doesn't lose money.

Sounds like a total result though... That gearbox is more than double the value of my entire car !

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[stefaulkner]

Listers VW Coventry look after my van. It’s now out of warranty so, especially after reading this, doubt I’ll use them again. My last service with them was over a grand, cam belt, water pump, Dsg oil all done. I hope they did do it!

[GOAT]

Great result I’d say....

[Brian]

Interesting, I didn't know that.

TBH, its a good result whichever way I look at it, the contribution being made is great, and the no quibble prompt way in which it was dealt with saves me the hassle and stress of pursing it via legal means had no offer been made.

I should say that I am really happy with the way VW Swindon have dealt with this matter for me. ( I have bought lots of cars from them over the years, so its nice to see customer loyalty rewarded )

AND make sure that you pay that £400 on a credit card.

Good result for you Keith

Brian