Reply With QuoteRegarding quartz I always thought the Citizen had much better spec than the Grand Seiko but never found the same amount of devotion. I think “stigma” is nothing about a movement but a brand.
I've been pondering on the fact that movements like (for example) Seiko's latest iteration of their 9F quartz series are truly exceptional. Amazing accuracy, great functionality (e.g. independently adjustable hour hands), instant date change at 12, thermocompensation, fine movement finishing etc and yet there still seems in some quarters to be a stigma against quartz, even at this level.
I'm not talking about putting it up against a Patek minute repeater but comparing it to something like an Omega 8500 or Rolex 3230 mechanical movement. I guess if you don't like the idea of a battery then it is your money and your choice but I'd be interested to get your thoughts on this.
One could argue that the level of build sophistication to produce one of these movements is at least on par with the aforementioned mechanicals (read on how the quartz crystals are selected, how a hair spring is inserted, fine adjustments, Tokyo stripes etc).
Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk
Regarding quartz I always thought the Citizen had much better spec than the Grand Seiko but never found the same amount of devotion. I think “stigma” is nothing about a movement but a brand.
I wouldn’t mind having one as a part of my collection but just prefer mechanicals. Nothing against quartz or any stigma in my mind.
I had a 14 month old GS with 9F, when i wanted to move it on i priced it £1150 under retail and seemed mission impossible to sell.
I can only think it was the Quartz nobody wanted, the dial, hands, indices and polishing on that watch made my old Tudor BB look like cheap tat.
Don’t forget the spring-drive, which offers quartz like precision with no need for a battery, and plenty of nice mechanical parts. To me, Grand Seiko is best at these type of designs, which are more adventurous than the Swiss.
Of course, these days, the quartz /spring drive technology is quite old-hat.
As my collection grows it’s exclusively been mechanical in recent years as the same volume of quartz watches would be a battery management headache.
I’ll leave all my battery management thinking for work.
There are some truly exceptional quartz movements that I fully respect.
Bit like whisky, single malt vs blend discussions where some insist on single malts only. There are some great blends out there and some poor single malts. It’s all about the specific choice. Not a generic thing.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I have about 3 quartz watches in a wider collection of autos and hand winders.
I do often wonder how safe the battery is within them. Years ago I had a quartz watch where the battery leaked and ruined it. Would often cross my mind and I suspect if I owned a high end quartz, Oyster quartz or GS quartz would that worry creep in more often...
I hate quartz solely for the battery running out when most annoying. For the same reason I don’t mind eco drive as they can run indefinitely almost.
The GS 9F86 is brilliant. Adding the independent hour hand makes it even better as you can keep the accuracy through the GMT/BST changes twice a year. But as the battery only lasts around 3 years - you will eventually have to stop the watch and reset the amazing 5spy accuracy.
There is definitely a place in every collection for such a watch. Mechanicals though will always need you to stay alive - that's the point of watch romance for me.
I agree. If I had the budget, I wouldn't hesitate to buy, say, a Spring Drive. At a lower price level, I find the Bulova Precisionist movement wonderfully mesmerising. And the unique ISA quartz, with its sweeping second-hand, in my Smiths Seafire adds considerably to the ownership pleasure.Originally Posted by ryanb741
Not long ago the GS quartz was about £1100 - £1500 new mechanical GS started at about £2500 both including import fees. They shot up in price a few years ago in particular when they started to sell direct in Europe. I think people have long memories and the idea of paying what would be retail a few years ago for a second hand watch probably puts people off.
Thats no criticism of you or the watch you are selling but its a big reason that puts me off buying one.
Ryan, are preaching to the converted? The general population wears a quartz watch (if any watch at all), the TZ community is the exception wearing outdated watches that only keep to a second a day or worse but cost 10x or 50x a standard Seiko, Citizen, Casio etc. I suggest we are watch snobs and that is why quartz are (generally) frowned on - with a few exceptions. IMHO
I owned a wonderful mechanical piece by JLC with “jumping seconds” - cost a load to develop a mechanical second hand that looked just like a quartz!
Martyn.
Last edited by MartynJC (UK); 29th November 2020 at 14:51.
I was gonna post similar about watch snobbery on another thread... and I concur with what you say.
I don't mind quartz in any way or form... I just prefer something about mechanical. It's all about the sweep to me. And I don't buy expensive these days. I even like a good clear case back to look at it. It may be an age thing this end.
I think with quartz it's the second hand jumpiness. I am not up on how second hands move now on the newer stuff.
I DID love the perfect perpetual second hand moving on the f300 watches. I have owned a couple. Obviously they are older now and are harder to get serviced... I haven't spoken to Paul (Silver Hawk here) in Brighton for years. I used to get him to service my cone.
What I would say is if a similar perfectly rotating second hand could be made to sweep like the f300.. then my interest would be piqued. In an era where we can make a phone do SO much... for say £300... can't we possibly have a new age version of THAT in a watch for a reasonable price? Is it too hard?
* Edit: I just watched a Bulova Accutron precisionist... I stand corrected.
Disclaimer: If there are high end battery watches out there that are sweeping as we speak.. for sale.. ignore my ignorance. :)
** I just watched a Bulova precsionist sweep hand video.. I stand corrected. Every day is a classroom day.
Last edited by gregory; 29th November 2020 at 17:04. Reason: Ignorance lol
I enjoy both quartz and mechanical and have both in the collection.
My Grand Seiko is quartz, because I view it as a generally available drive system (cf springdrive, which is proprietary) that has been absolutely perfected by GS, and is in the form of the 9F therefore the exemplar of the brand and the ne plus ultra of haq... it is to my mind a mark of connoisseurship to appreciate quartz alongside mechanical, and if money was no object I would love to own the platinum-cased quartz SBGX017, just for the sheer chutzpah of the thing.
Last edited by JGJG; 29th November 2020 at 20:16. Reason: Perhaps fittingly, something autocorrected “connoisseurship” to “consumership”
This should be interesting reading for anyone wishing to find out more about Quartz at its apex
https://www.grand-seiko.com/uk-en/about/movement/quartz
Citizen chronomaster range very special also. And F.P. Journe has an in house quartz movement also
Very much my view as well, nothing against quartz. High end quartz are really great, but if I have the choice I'll veer to mechanical (my G-shocks are an exception). Maybe my own mechanical engineering background is a factor.
and in case you missed it: https://forum.tz-uk.com/showthread.p...ums-and-quartz
I've dabbled quite a bit with the Bulova Precisionist/Accutron 2 range but never warmed to one enough to keep it although their timekeeping is ridiculously good. A bit further up the ladder, I've got a Longines VHP, I've only had it a couple of weeks so not long enough to make a definitive call on the accuracy but in the short term it's +0.0 so no complaints at all.
Mind you, I don't mind quartz, they have their place and make up half my collection. Even the worst of mine, my CWC G10, only gains 0.3 s/d, not an issue at all if I set it 30 seconds slow twice a year when the hour changes, it still spends the next 6 months at an average of only 15 seconds out!
That said though, I don't think I could spend any more than a grand on a quartz. While the tech is impressive above that price point, a mechanical is usually going to feel more special.
I think you make some good points, Ryan, and I think that, given Rolex and Omega's price acceleration, Seiko's where it's at.
For the moment. Seiko is already realising that they can charge (and get away with) more and more. While I'm getting a SpeingDrive movement, or something different (my recent Landmaster acquisitions), that's OK, but I think that the rising Rolex tide is going to lift all ships. Get on board now before it's too late.
Reading back, I thnk it's clear that I'm three cans in. Good luck deciphering that.
I would add something to this debate. I bought a JLC master quartz and it was a nightmare of a watch. Had it repaired three times in a month and a half of ownership before selling it on. Motto - be careful with vintage quartz as the parts are often not available and the movements are really rather delicate.
TL,DR: Just watch this incredible YouTube clip: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sULI3raP6Jw&t
I have a 9F GS - which I love not despite being a Quartz, but because it is a Quartz.
Citizen make an exceptional movement too, but I have appreciation for Seiko’s history with Quartz.
There is much more end-user consideration & care put into a GS 9F than the majority of Swiss brands.
Movements are only one aspect of watches that attracts me - it’s as much about dials, aesthetics, finishing, design, history, materials etc. The mere fact of being Quartz detracts from none of that.
There’s also something gratifying about looking at a 9F on your wrist (set against a good time source), and knowing you have the exact right time.
Not to mention the welcome relief from mechanical servicing. A DIY 9F battery change & case-back seal lubrication is a doddle, done with care.
More than most watches, a GS needs to be held/worn to be fully appreciated. The glittering light show from the hands & indices is incredible, as are their dials.
My take is that quartz is truly the perfect travel watch, for example the Seiko 9f GMT models are a bombproof way of travelling and not having to worry about keeping track of time zones and if the time is correct, etc. For a stay at home watch i love the character of manual wind or auto, YMMV...
Character in what sense precisely?
I've got a lot of mechanicals and quite a few quartz.
Quartz are great for grab and go watches which is why my beaters are usually quartz but they hold none of the romance of a mechanical for me.
Mechanical movements interest me greatly and it is enjoyable to compare the different styles and makers over the years and the fascinating engineering that goes into them.
IMO quartz are supremely accurate/useful but ultimately boring.
If all watches were quartz I doubt I would bother to collect them.
Cheers,
Neil.
Some interesting comments gents thanks. Just to keep discussion on track the comparison was intended between high end quartz and mechanical, not everyday quartz. For example I would suggest that the Seiko 9F Calibre is at least as fine a movement as the Audemars Piguet Calibre 4302, and certainly streets ahead of what can be found inside an everyday Omega or Rolex. I suspect that won't be the mainstream view here but hopefully that video posted earlier (plus the link to the GS 9F microsite) helps set the picture somewhat straight :)
https://youtu.be/yjJvEoaQdik
This gives another look at Journe’s take on high end quartz
I suspect you are right :-)
I would suggest HEQ Omega (the movement developed for the X-33 for example) are comparable to their mechanical movements, in terms of research and development. But there manufacture and fabrication - totally different. I need to take a look at the link though.
I've now had a look at the link and GS does seem to be top notch. Hand assembled? I guess that means the IC's etc are manually plugged in place to make the movement? I can understand hand-assembly of hands and so forth though why not use CNC for super accuracy?
This topic does remind me of my first Omega 'Bond' which I owned - which was quartz. Totally bomb proof and reliable and worn for many years before joining the TZ-UK madness.
Last edited by MartynJC (UK); 29th November 2020 at 18:49.
I wish I hadn’t clicked that...
z
I wish that the high-end quartz - the Seikos under discussion, Breitling's superquartz etc - would contemplate solar power. A good few people here have expressed aversion to (disposable) battery watches rather than quartz itself, and I can relate to that. Casio manage to put solar-powered batteries in sub-£100 watches. I'd love a solar Aerospace, for example (and it would seem a pretty organic concept for a pilot's watch).
I like quartz a lot, and have an Aerospace, and some Seikos (Tuna and 7548) alongside my mechanicals. The Aerospace is TC HAQ, and although the Seikos’ aren’t, they keep time to 0.1 second a day. Mine are all in the category of grab and go everyday watch, and from that point of view I like them immensely.
If you are talking about high end, then really that means Seiko with both an excellent HAQ movement and some of the finesse, case, dial, hands from higher end watches.
It’s totally illogical, but I would happily have a spring drive, but a watch with finesse in its finishing and a quartz movement does feel a bit dissonant. I’m not justifying that, it isn’t logical clearly.
I’m totally happy with good quality quartz when the alternative is an entry level Seiko mechanical, or even a 2824
Dave
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I believe the solar cells wouldn't generate enough charge to power the hands on an Aerospace or in particular a 9F due to the torque involved.
Changing battery every 3 to 4 years is to me fine as that isn't beyond the scope of a mechanical watch service interval and of course the service costs will be much lower
That is very interesting. I had always assumed it was for the ignoble reason of giving you a reason to send it back to the mothership for servicing
FWIW I think replaceable batteries are vastly better than a proprietary rechargeable (looking at you Breitling B55)
Thanks Ryan
Dave
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I think 9F quartz is absolutely amazing. I mean, they ''grow'' their own quartz! It doesn't get much cooler than that, does it?
Changing the battery every 3-4 years is also good for WR. New gaskets are included GS battery replacement cost.
To me it is like replacing a human heart with a fancy pump. No matter how well made and efficient that pump is, it cannot take place of a human heart.
My quartz watch is a Sinn UX with the oil filled case.
Battery and service is a factory job every 7 years.
Quirky watch with real character .... Can't imagine it with anything else but an ETA thermo quartz.
I used to look down on quartz movements years ago when I first became interested in watches, and always preferred automatic or manual mechanical movements.
But as I get older I am much more open to quartz movements, but only good movements like the Seiko 7548 of which I appear to have collected quite a few!! I really don’t see the point of £1k watches with a 79p Chinese movement though.
Mechanical movements are still my love though, but I enjoy my quartz collection too.
Cheers,
Effortless
My Breitling Colt A74380 has Superquartz movement that is Chronometer rated to within 15 secs a year and with a battery life of up to 8 years.....happy days
OK, that's super-cool
What would you know about human hearts? Jeez.
Is the Citizen' Chronomaster available in the UK?..very impressive
You can get them via EU sellers however for the daddy of quartz, accurate to 1 second a year and entirely solar powered Ocarat has this in stock and discount code works.
Still Rolex Sub money for a Citizen but this could be the best watch out there (form and function wise). I don't like the style (or the price if I'm honest) but could be a good buy for someone
https://ocarat.com/montre-eco-drive-...zen-68758.html
Thanks Ryan..amazing watch, but way outside my budget... But have to appreciate the engineering
I always like to have a couple of quartz beaters in my collection but until very recently, I’ve never considered owning a high end one. It only struck me a couple of weeks ago that it’s exactly what I should own, the likelihood being that it would more than justify the initial outlay in the price per wear stakes!
I’ve been very tempted by a Longines Conquest VHP. However, for slightly (ok, quite a lot) more it looks like a used 9F GS could be within reach. A lack of watch funds is stopping me from pulling any triggers right now, so it’s going to be a while before I get hold of one.
So in answer to the original post, I honestly believe high end quartz has its place and I’d happily have one of the really high quality pieces over a similar mechanical. Right now, it would probably be perfect for me.
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
I've posted this before, but it makes for interesting reading, so here it is again. Shows that even the not-very-high-end quartz can be pretty impressive. Courtesy of watchmaker Al Archer on another forum:
So as some of you requested, here is a post about the technology in modern quartz watches. I realize not everyone here is a fan, but hopefully after reading this you will understand how sophisticated they are, and at least appreciate them as something more than a “dumb” stepping motor and dividing circuit.
So the modern quartz watch offers a lot of technology to increase accuracy and extend battery life, that most people have no idea are included inside these movements. But first let’s talk about what these movements look like, and how well they are made.
The image most people have in their mind of a quartz movement is one made of thin metal or plastic, and a very low count for the jewels, if any at all. In addition, there is probably a well deserved reputation of very small and cheap movements, in very large cases, like this:
Note this is a Diesel that I swapped a battery in a while back – the owner had sent it in to the company twice to have the battery changed and they refused to do it. They gave him a certificate on a discount for a new watch instead. Amazing...
Anyway, not all quartz watches look like the one above. Here are some very old photos (my photography was certainly lacking back then, so excuse the poor quality) of my wife’s Cartier quartz – took these when I was changing the battery for her:
The finishing was quite nice, with rhodium plating and well done Cotes de Geneve:
To give a more typical example from Omega, here is a shot of a Cal. 1538 – a movement that I deal with often - it is also rhodium plated, and has perlage decoration:
So although not as nice as the Cartier, it’s way nicer than the movements I can buy for $5 from the local material house.
So they can be well finished, but they are also much more sophisticated than a simple quartz oscillator and dividing circuit. To illustrate this, I’ll use my timing machine, as it can be used to time both mechanical and quartz watches. In this photo I have another quartz SMP with a Cal. 1538 that I have removed the battery from, and I am powering the watch using my timing machine. This allows me to perform more diagnostic checks on the movement that I can’t perform when it’s being powered by a battery:
Here is a closer look at the screen and the results, and to explain things I have added some letters beside some of the readings on the screen:
Now most people are aware that modern quartz watches tell you when the battery is getting low on power. That feature is called the EOL – End Of Life indicator. On the Cal. 1538, it makes the hands tick once every 4 seconds. But the features do not stop there....
So looking at the labels on the screen, let’s look at B first. It reads the average daily rate in seconds per day, and it’s currently running 0.32 seconds fast per day. But beside it at A, there is another rate “Q” that shows 4.18 seconds fast per day, so what does that mean? Well it’s related to letter F down below, and that is labeled as “Inhibition” with the number 60 after it. The number that is 4.18 seconds per day fast is the rate of the quartz crystal, and it is intentionally set fast. The inhibition number is the frequency that the movement corrects it’s own timing.
So in this example in a typical 60 second period, the watch is running +4.18 s/d for 59 out of the 60 seconds. Then on the 60th second, it corrects itself and slows the watch down for one second. It then resumes it’s fast rate for the next 59 seconds. This results in a very stable actual rate, and this watch can be as accurate as 2 minutes per year.
You will notice under the A and B section up top and their corresponding numbers, there is a line with a scale on it, and on the right side there is a green arrow pointing down at just past the 4 second mark. This is indicating the instantaneous rate that the movement is running at, so for 59 seconds that arrow will be in this location. Then when the correction happens, the arrow will jump to a negative number to the left of the zero on that scale for one second, and turn red, then go back to where you see it now – this is a visual indication to show you that the inhibition is happening in real time. Inhibition period can be different for different movements, and 60 seconds is common, as well as 10 second intervals.
Now there are some other numbers we can get out of the way at this point, and those are C and D. C shows the consumption of the movement, measured in micro-amperes, and overall the movement is consuming 0.877 uA, which is well within the allowed standard by Omega. At D, this is showing the consumption of just the circuit, so not counting the power needed to actually drive the hands. These consumption numbers are the most critical things to check when a working quartz movement comes in the shop, as this will tell me if the movement is using too much power, and possibly needs servicing.
I also check some other things not shown here, such as the coil resistance. Also, by powering the watch with the machine, I can vary the voltage that is supplied to the movement, so that allows me to check things like the EOL indicator. I lower the voltage until it kicks into the 4 seconds pulses, and check to make sure this feature is triggering at the correct voltage. I also keep lowering the voltage until the movement stops completely, which is the LWL or Lower Working Limit. All of these features have specifications that are checked when a watch comes in, even for just a simple battery change.
So I’ve covered most of the letters I added to the screen, but there are 2 left. For me this is where these movements really do get amazing. Now looking at G, this is labeled as “Pulse width” and here the pulse is 7.8 milliseconds. So what this tells me is that the pulse of the motor inside the movement is only 7.8 ms long. So unlike a mechanical watch that has force/pressure on the wheels and pivots of the watch from the time the mainspring is wound until it unwinds, in this watch there is only a very short period each second (pulses every seconds as shown by the motor period at E) that there is any force on the movement parts. But here’s the thing – these pulses are not just one long pulse, but a chopped pulse. So the 7.8 ms pulse is divided further into smaller pulses, and the percentage of time that the rotor is actually being powered is represented by the number at H called drive level, which in this case is at 50%. So what does this mean? Well this is part of the feature called “asservissement” in French, and what I simply refer to as the motor management.
So here is how this works...when the movement sends it’s pulses to the motor, it expects to move the second hand. In a “dumb” quartz movement this is an open loop system, and the movement does not actually know if the hand moved or not. With asservissement, the loop is closed. When that hand moves, and comes to a stop, it will wiggle back and forth a bit due to the inertia of the hand, and this creates a feedback signal to the movement. The movement looks for this signal, and if it sees it and all is well, it keeps on ticking. At this time the movement is only using 50% of the 7.8 ms pulse in several smaller pulses, and this conserves energy compared to a situation where it is “on” the whole 7.8 ms. Now if it sends a signal to the movement to pulse the motor, and does not see that feedback signal it knows the hand has not moved, it then increases the percentage of the pulse, and tries to overcome whatever is causing the hand not to move – could be a small piece of debris on the tooth of a wheel for example. It will continue to have this increased pulse percentage for a while, then it will return to it’s and shorter length pulses.
This feature is one of the main reasons why watches that used to have a 1.5 to 2 year battery life, now have multiples of that.
So as you can see, these modern quartz movements have a lot going on inside.
This video gives a great view into the 9F quartz by Grand Seiko.
Posting Permissions
