Originally Posted by Saint-Just
'Against stupidity, the gods themselves struggle in vain' - Schiller.
OK promise Ill get off walk across the road and get back on in future.
And if the driver hates me for it what is it they actually hate? If has zero effect on them as they will still wait and go regardless so if they want o get angry about that then always be mindful that stress isn’t healthy, bit like driving a car for a journey you could walk or do on a bike
RIAC
Judging by my observations on a bike, maybe we should have a thread slagging off all the drivers who are texting and surfing the internet while driving or, judging by my sense of smell as they pass, the ones who are smoking cannabis at the wheel. It would make a change from another cyclist bashing thread.
Rural roads in my part of the country are between 5.5 and 6 m wide.
Of that you can remove almost a metre because of the state of the edges. We’re talking single carriageway with 2 lanes here.
My car is 2.12 m wide for a usable width of lane between 2.25 and 2.75 m
2 cyclists abreast, separated by 1m at the shoulder, and assuming the leftmost cyclist rides close to the ridable edge, occupy .6 + .5 + 1 + .5 = 2.6 m in their lane
Remember it is a double lane. So if I wanted to pass (or if a coming car wanted to continue its way), I would have to create over a metre of new road to give them the 1.5 m + that I always give to cyclists in a single lane.
As I said I treat them as a car.
And it’s not a punishment pass, it’s a deliberate attempt to block.
And we are talking 2 cyclists here, not a small peloton.
The stupidity is on the shoulders of those who risk the most.
'Against stupidity, the gods themselves struggle in vain' - Schiller.
Why can't you just wait for red to change to green and cycle on? What makes your selective law breaking ok?
I'm genuinely surprised at the posters advocating illegal, poor and/or unsafe cycling/driving, especially when, from previous posts, they are clearly rational, educated folk. I suppose it just shows that we're all capable of irrational logic where emotions take over.
Threads like this can educate/enlighten, rather than just dissolve into us v them when it should be WE. I won't comment again but hope we all reflect on where we can improve our consideration and respect for other road users in future.
Have a watch of Chris Boardman’s video I posted further up this thread.
It would also be interesting to know more specifics about the roads you are commenting on. E.g winding roads or ling straights? It is not unusual for cyclists to ride two abreast on narrow winding roads as single file encourages drivers to pass where it is unsafe for them, or the cyclists, to carry out such a manoeuvre.
I am talking about normal, country (B) roads with 2 lanes but limited width. I only lost a mirror once in over 20 years to an incoming car that could not stop in time on a narrower bit (I had stopped) so it’s fine if you drive carefully.
'Against stupidity, the gods themselves struggle in vain' - Schiller.
Dont want my pulse to go down and i can disappear out of cars way.
What effect does it have on anyone else !
RIAC
It clearly causes many drivers frustration and increases the prospects of them displaying less care to other cyclists. That ought to be sufficient, even if you think you're above the law.
Then those drivers need anger management classes or to calm down. Be frustrated about things that really matter and take care of the things that do.
And its not against the law to get off walk 10m and get back on
RIAC
I was in the process of doing the very same thing- add to that a standard road which is 12ft per carriageway the 2 cyclist, the minimum safe passing distance, the road verge conditions and then use an example of a lorry which can be up to 2.5 mtrs wide. I’d say that riding 2 abreast or even in the middle of the lane like dean lad is incredibly stupid thing to do.
I personally have invested in a Garmin Varia, a radar light that notifies me on my Garmin where a car is in relation to me and the speed it is approaching, that means I have ample warning to move over and can enjoy all of the road not just the typically damaged and poor surface that is the edge with drains and potholes.
That wasn’t a cheap investment and arguably it benefits the drivers as much as me but one thing I have learned over the decades is Cyclists don't wind car drivers up, car drivers wind themselves up. My favourite ones are those who get held up for all of 3 seconds then accelerate like mental patients past as they are so wound up and tense that they might be seconds late for nothing at all.
RIAC
I’m frustrated about being knocked over and constantly having to be on my guard to ensure my kids don’t get knocked over crossing the road at pedestrian crossings because people like you think it’s ok to break the law and that you are the judge of when it’s safe to go through! Just obey the law or get off your bike and walk. It’s not rocket science and you’re not above the law regardless of whether it’s clear. Would you drive through a red light if it was safe to do so? Of course you wouldn’t.
But that is not what you originally said you were doing.
Yeah it's a bit much to suggest only lycra clad is proper cycling...I grew up in the Country and since we never had a car, Mum, myself and sister cycled everywere on local journeys and learned to observe the rules and more importantly 'self protection' and awareness.
Yes but I promised after that to do as Montello asked so pop your pitchfork away
RIAC
No pitchforks here.
I fully expected this to be the first post:
While personally being very courteous and accommodating towards cyclists.............................
I'd have cheerfully pushed him over the barrier.
Two wheels or four, don't be a dick.
Everybody using the roads should watch the Ogmios School of Zen Motoring videos.
Don't just do something, sit there. - TNH
Do some jumping jacks.
This does seem to be a more common occurrence these days. Part of the issue stems from the driver behind the cyclist worrying about the time they are taking to overtake and holding up the cars behind them. This often leads to taking risks on bends, brows of hills etc. Even on straight wide roads the perception of some drivers overtaking cyclists is that you as the oncoming vehicle needs to swerve to the curb or drastically reduce your speed in order for them to complete the manoeuvre. Personally don’t have a massive issue with it as long as I have the warning and/ or the room to make the adjustments but others aren’t quite as forgiving and are happy to play chicken.
Honestly think there is a general lack of tolerance on the roads nowadays. Minor indiscretions are met with aggression. Every journey is an event irrespective of how short.
Ridden bikes for twenty years. Never had any issues with cars berating my riding although I’m sure some drivers will have vocalised their dissatisfaction in the cabin. I try to avoid holding anyone up. If I do a friendly wave acknowledging their patience usually goes a long way. I stop at red lights but have been known to slightly ride over the solid line somewhat in order to give me a second or two more to pull away safely. Ironically this usually coincides with cars that are sat in the ASL boxes designed specifically to facilitate bikes at traffic signals. Unfortunately I deem close passes to be a given on every ride. It shouldn’t be the case but accept it is a hazard of the hobby and there’s genuinely little point in confronting drivers on the road. The ones who are willing to accept any wrongdoing will be few and far between.
I was knocked off my bike two years ago by a guy who misjudged my speed on a roundabout as he approached his exit leaving a dual carriageway thinking he “could beat me” The main thing that sticks with me that day was the genuine look of terror on the drivers face when he got out of the car to check on me. My first reaction was to wrap the bike round his head but it became a strange situation as we talked. Almost like he was the injured party and I was the one who ended up comforting him. It struck me then that despite all the flack that cyclists get it's clear no one goes out to hurt or put them at risk but it ultimately comes back to our tolerance levels for others on the road.
I’m speaking about the wider public here, but we all feel an obligation to keep our families safe when driving and we never intentionally put them at risk. If we adopted that same attitude and mindset and accepted the obligation to protect others I’m sure the roads would be a safer place.
I completely see your logic and if I cycled in London maybe I’d act the same way, I don’t know.
But you must realise from all the riding you do that cyclists jumping red lights winds up the haters. Regardless of how illogical the haters may be you are just giving them more oxygen.
I’d support a law change to permit filtering left on a red but until then I will continue to observe the law and not give the anti cyclist nutters a stick to beat me with.
It’s disappointing to read that people willingly state they are happy to drive “without consideration” for a cyclist because they think they are in some way “making a deliberate nuisance” ... why would anyone do that?
Just because I see another person doing something stupid of selfish I’d never put them at risk and justify it to myself as ok because it’s their own stupid fault if they get hurt. Just show a bit of tolerance and pass when the opportunity arises to do so without risk, is the end time of your journey really that critical?
As the earlier video states it’s often done to ease the passage of the car or as others have stated to prevent the unsafe overtake of a single file rider.
If riding two abreast and I hear a car on a narrow road I will single out to allow the car to pass, everyone I ride with does the same.
Life is about mutual respect and tolerance, I wouldn’t put another at risk because their behaviour didn’t measure up to my own arbitrary expectations... I’d just move on.
There is no law or Highway Code banning riding two abreast, just seems some have made up their own standards.
There are some selfish idiots on bikes and some in cars ... it’s just the way it is. Let’s all just try getting along.
Last edited by Montello; 22nd November 2020 at 15:32.
I’ve had one of these for a couple of years now, one of the best things I’ve purchased.
As you say, as well as letting me know more about what’s happening behind me with regards traffic, the way the flashing/intensity varies as cars approach means I generally get noticed a lot earlier. I’ve generally experienced far fewer near passes than I did previously, at least that’s what it feels like. I wear one wireless earbud in my left ear so that I hear the alerts clearly even in the wind and rain, took me a while to find some that didn’t go to sleep between cars!
I still do an over the shoulder check before moving out into the road even though the Varia says it’s clear, but it’s a great bit of kit.
The only thing I would change in the Montello’s post is to remove disappointing and replace it with terrifying.
I treat cyclist with the respect that I would expect to be shown, and when passing always exaggerate the amount of space needed to be safe. There is no excuse for creating a dangerous situation irrespective of whether driving or cycling. That said, I do get frustrated when others' feel the need to control or police what I do. Cycling in pairs to prevent passing, because the cyclists deem it unsafe, is an example of this. In such situations, I have a word with myself and drop back!
Cycling two abreast does not prevent passing; this can still be carried out by moving to the opposite lane if it is safe to do so.
What it does do is prevent in lane passing where, even on the widest of roads, there is seldom room to do so whilst still giving adequate safe space.
They are therefore not policing what you do, rather they are keeping themselves safe.
I’m glad to see you pull back in such situations. I am sure this is always appreciated by those in front.
I am sorry you feel disappointed. in the absence of road markings denying the possibility, a double lane carriageway is meant to allow passing a vehicle. If it's a car, no problem. If it's a cyclist, no problem, including maintaining the 1.5m safety distance. if it's 2 cyclist arrest, that safety distance cannot be kept. So riding abreast is a deliberate move to prevent passing. I don't know who is arrogant here, people choosing to pretend to have a conversation and ignoring other road users, or a car passing a 4 wheeled entity as if it was another 4 wheeled entity, which implies being able to pass safely (in terms of visibility, speed, etc.). The only rule that cannot be followed is the 1.5m distance. Well, too bad.
Furthermore, those cyclists are also responsible for a lot of the anti-cyclist attitude shown by car drivers, a minority spoiling it for everyone. Feel free to behave as you want, but be prepared to receive the same respect you are showing others. It is not up to you to decide how urgent getting to my destination is. If the road allows for passing one cyclist safely, I shall pass. If the position chosen by the second cyclist means it feels a bit too close for comfort (and simple maths says it will), so be it.
'Against stupidity, the gods themselves struggle in vain' - Schiller.
When I’m driving my car or van I often encounter other road users who’s standards or choices don’t measure up to my standards.
However, I would never drive without consideration for the safety of another road user regardless of their own stupidity.
I would never want an accident, that could end seriously, on my conscience.
You clearly justify such possible outcomes as acceptable or deserved through their own choices.
I hope you never have to truly test that stance.
So what you are basically saying is that if the cyclist (in your opinion) is behaving without due respect for other road users you will happily endanger their life.
It may not be up to other people to decide how urgent getting to your destination is but I’m pretty sure that it isn’t urgent enough to injure or kill a cyclist just because you think you have the moral high ground.
It's UK wide,as another poster has said it's 1.5m minimum,I always cross the white line as if I'm passing another car.
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I'm talking about 2 cyclists,I didn't say it was illegal it's just etiquette on the country roads here if your 2 abreast then filter in behind your buddy to let the car passCan you clarify if you are talking about two cyclists or a group?
And for clarity the distance is a minimum of 1.5 metres
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In the still for the vimeo video it would not be safe to do as you suggest. The road has a double white line prohibiting the vehicle to cross to the other side of the road and there is insufficient room to allow in-lane passing whilst giving the required safe distance.I'm talking about 2 cyclists,I didn't say it was illegal it's just etiquette on the country roads here if your 2 abreast then filter in behind your buddy to let the car pass
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Where can he pull over to? it looks like he is fairly close to the barrier as it is.. Also going up Balach na Baa fully laden - if he come to a stop it's hard work to get going again..I fully expected this to be the first post:
While personally being very courteous and accommodating towards cyclists.............................
I'd have cheerfully pushed him over the barrier.
I think his answer to the biker was fair enough given his position, the gradient and his bike..
I would and have pulled over with drivers behind me - but that's if there is a space there to pull into. Also I'm on a lightweight bike - not a fully laden tourer..
let's talk about motorcyclist's; they all speed, overtake on zebra crossings and none of them seem to do a lifesaver look..
A disproportionate number of which are Audis in my experience. The drivers of which are often the ones that have to get past at all costs in order to save approximately 10 seconds on their journey time.
I agree with all of that.. I seem to get a whiff from a lot of white van men.. I do wonder if a percentage of the 'dodgy builder' experiences are due to a fair percentage of 'em being stoned on the job!
Sometimes, as a cyclist, you can disregard a red light without doing so posing a danger or inconvenience to yourself or other road users, or pedestrians, or anyone else. I did so a couple of times today.
Agree on cyclists riding two-abreast. I never do it and it annoys me when I'm driving, though I do still consider their safety when passing..
Some interesting thoughts here.
As a cyclist myself, who also drives and walks quite a lot, I see the frustrations of each to a number of the topics discussed.
One thing I've yet to see mentioned is the issue of pedestrians crossing roads between cars while motor traffic is stopped (due to weight of traffic). Repeatedly I've reached had to take evasive action whilst cycling alongside stationary traffic but pedestrians have deemed it safe to cross between cars without a glance. Sometimes on a crossing when the light for them is red and green for me, sometimes not even at a crossing. Surely it's time "jaywalking" was made illegal here? One man walked between buses and collided with the cyclist who was just in front of me causing him to fly over his handlebars onto his neck. The ambulance paramedics said it was a minor miracle he wasn't paralysed. The pedestrian just walked off.
Whether cyclists/motorists run red lights or not, surely the moment you enter the road as a pedestrian you also become a "road user" so some of the laws of the road must come into force?
The point here is you will never win in any situation against a cyclist.
I assume you can appreciate that once a manoeuvre is well underway, there becomes a point of no return?
Situation one.
If I had my crystal ball in the car I would have seen this cyclist coming from 20 yards away and paused....
He’s breaking the Highway Code cycling on a pavement, he’s also instructing his son to do likewise. Indicates some of the morals the man may have. For your info, son was maybe 8/9?
Situation 2
Said cyclist owns all the highway regardless of who else is using it.
The idiot is a danger to himself.
I’m glad that you can see fit to see the complete situation of both events from hundreds of miles away.
As pointed out elsewhere, and by myself... it’s all about being sensible, whether behind steering wheel or handlebars.
If idiots are prepared to risk themselves for a few seconds of time, maybe they need to revaluate their priorities....
This is how I broke my hip.
I was in a cycle lane, pedestrian walked from behind a tree so I had no chance.
I see no need for the tone of your response.
Situation 1: There is case law for duty of care. There are also bodies in the UK pushing for the adoption of presumed liability like they have in other nations such as the Netherlands.
I am not casting opinion on that just stating facts.
Situation 2: This individual may well be a danger to themselves but it does not change the fact cyclists have use of the roads as a legal entitlement.
As with any road user idiots are idiots.
Whilst there are no rules on speed on cycle paths if you are doing 15mph and above you are better on the road. I average 20-21mph over an average ride so do not use them if they are independant of the main road option.
RIAC
I think there is a rule in a Highway Code that if you’re doing over 15mph on a bicycle you should be on the road. Or that there’s a speed limit to the bike lane? Or am I talking bollo*ks?
We have quite a long stretch by the seafront where there’s a 2 way bike lane between a promenade and one lane of spaces for cars to park. If you try to ride on that cycle lane you get people getting out of the cars with dogs, kids, elderly. Others coming from the beach straight to the car without looking... not to mention whole families on bikes that are doing 10mph tops if they have some serious tailwind. It’s a total minefield and much safer for me and others to cycle on the road. I still get honked at all the time because I should be in the bike line.
20-21mph average on a ride? Beast.
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I don’t think there is a law regarding speed limits on a cycle Lane...I think it just says something like if you regularly go faster you may be better on the road.
Also,if there is a cycle Lane there is no legal requirement to use it according to the Highway Code.
I seem to remember being told that only cycles with 20” wheels or smaller were allowed on the pavement.
Can you? I don’t think it’s optional.
Do you not see how doing this just gives fuel to the anti cycling types?
They are absolutely policing what motorists do. I'm old enough to judge when a manoeuvre is safe, I don't need to be instructed on this.
Of course. It won't always pose a danger or inconvenience to yourself or other road users, or pedestrians, or anyone else.
We can carry on this they are / they are not argument ad nauseam.
It will not change the should and must statements in the highway code, traffic law in the UK or the advice and guidance given out by British Cycling and Cycling UK.
Cyclists riding in a protective manner is simply that and nothing more.
Wrong.
Highway Code for cyclists:
You MUST obey all traffic signs and traffic light signals.
Laws RTA 1988 sect 36 & TSRGD reg 10(1)
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