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Thread: Jury service. A bit of a rant!

  1. #1
    Grand Master Andyg's Avatar
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    Jury service. A bit of a rant!

    Earlier this month we received a letter addressed to my son (aged 18) requiring him to do jury service at the start of December.

    We appealed on a number of grounds.

    1) He is currently in his first term at university and this would impact his education.
    2) His university is over 100 miles away
    3) His university is in area which has a high Covid infection rate.

    Our appeal was rejected.

    I then rang them directly to again explain the situation, but was told he either had to attend (or face a summons and £1000 fine) or to change the date to some time in 2021 (which may or may not be accepted) In respect to Covid, they informed me, that my son should assume the Courts are open, but they would advise him of any changes with little or no notice.

    Anyway, my son has decided to leave Uni two weeks early (we will collect him and his laundry) so he get home and do his duty (assuming of course they donít cancel it). However I cannot help feeling that this a stupid for a number of reasons.

    1) He is 18 - so not an idea candidate as a jury (in my view).
    2) It will directly impact his studies, irrespective that he is paying rent for rooms he is unable to use. Plus he will miss the end of term party.
    3) He will move from a high risk Convid zone to a low risk area, but will certainly not be social distancing.

    I even offered to be his substitute because in 60 years neither me nor my wife have been selected for jury service, but alas not.

    The only upside is that he will come home early and gain experience of British Courts/Legal system without being in the dock.

    Still very annoying, but rant over.

    Whoever does not know how to hit the nail on the head should be asked not to hit it at all.
    Friedrich Nietzsche


  2. #2
    Grand Master
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    Why acknowledge the letter?

  3. #3
    Master
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    I did jury service a few years ago. The case started on a Friday morning and had collapsed by the following Monday morning. A few years later I got another letter about jury selection. I just ignored it and nothing happened. If Iíd been pulled up about it Iíd have denied ever receiving the letter.

  4. #4
    Grand Master TheFlyingBanana's Avatar
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    I do think that is rather ridiculous, particularly under the current circumstances.

    I've never been asked to do jury service either (in my late 40's now). I presume it is simply a lottery?

    I also agree that 18 is too young to be a juror in my opinion also. I don't know if there is anything else you can do though.
    So clever my foot fell off.

  5. #5
    Master village's Avatar
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    Did you ask for him to be excused from jury duty completely or did you ask for his date to be deferred?
    If it was the former then you got the answer expected. If you asked for a deferral then Iím very surprised you didnít get one as Iíve never heard of it being refused.

  6. #6
    Grand Master Saint-Just's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheFlyingBanana View Post
    I also agree that 18 is too young to be a juror in my opinion also. I don't know if there is anything else you can do though.
    I disagree. He can vote, he can serve in the Forces or the Police, there is no reason he canít be a juror.

    And yes, I believe it is randomised and that is also why Andy canít replace him.

    I am also surprised he couldnít differ it though.

    That said, the party excuse is a new low.
    'Against stupidity, the gods themselves struggle in vain' - Schiller.

  7. #7
    Master village's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saint-Just View Post
    I disagree. He can vote, he can serve in the Forces or the Police, there is no reason he canít be a juror.

    .........

    That said, the party excuse is a new low.
    I agree regards the age thing.

    I missed the comment about the party. Ridiculous comment and if it was actually used as an excuse I hope it was laughed at.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by seadog1408 View Post
    Why acknowledge the letter?
    This. Iíve binned a few over the years and heard nothing more. Each to their own.

  9. #9
    Master thieuster's Avatar
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    Learning new things here about the British Court and Justice system.

    I shouldn't express my opinion being a foreigner, but with a 19 y/o son at the uni, I can relate to your situation. I think that your arguments are (from a father's point of view) are valid. Simple, I would pay the fine for him.

    Again, my opinion is not an expression of what I think think about the Court system.

    Menno

  10. #10
    Master Tifa's Avatar
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    Yep.....the British justice system is SO inconvenient!!!
    Lets all just pay the fine, or not attend....WCPGW?

  11. #11
    Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saint-Just View Post
    ...why Andy canít replace him
    What a relief!

  12. #12
    As an adult he can appeal for himself if he wanted to.

    R
    Ignorance breeds Fear. Fear breeds Hatred. Hatred breeds Ignorance. Break the chain.

  13. #13
    Master
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    Iíve done it in the past. Itís an interesting way to realise how much money is wasted by cases coming to court to immediately fail due to lack of due diligence. I did lol at the time when the first prosecution witness immediately depth charged the case and the prosecutor just did not know what to do.

  14. #14
    Master Onelasttime's Avatar
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    End of term party? Is it a 70s fancy dress theme... The Joy of Six?

  15. #15
    Master
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    Iím sure everyone has their own excuses. Itís inconvenient but no more than and possibly less than many busy professionals, parents or others with busy schedules.

  16. #16
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    I did jury service about 12 years ago. It was a pretty turgid affair. Had to go through X-ray machines to get in and out, then you go into a pool with all the other jurors, and they pick 12 of you for each case as they come up. Youíre not allowed to leave the building once youíre in, they give you lunch tokens. You could in theory spend a fortnight there and not have your name pulled out of the hat. I sat around for 3 days reading my book (pre smartphone) and making small talk with fellow jurors
    then got called up on the Thursday, sat on a moderately interesting but fairly run of the mill affray and assault case (fight outside a pub) which was over by the next Monday afternoon. Sat around for a few more days before being sent home Thursday lunchtime and given the Friday off as by then they wouldnít call us again as our two weeks were nearly up.

    Some people will get a juicy case or spend the whole fortnight in court, but for most I think itís not nearly as exciting as people imagine, youíre mostly just killing time waiting for a call - itís like spending 2 weeks in an airport lounge!

  17. #17
    My parents (in their 70s) have never been called up.

    My partner and I about 6 times between us in 15 years

    I was picked for a case that fell apart within a couple of hours. The accused and defendant left hand in hand and the sheriff then lectured the jury in the perils of drink and youth.

    I've ignored the last couple of letters

  18. #18
    Craftsman
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    Heís no more qualified than you or I. Good for him to get it done now. Pain in the arse for working professionals with families etc.
    I did my service about 5 years ago now. Just over 2 weeks! Majority of cases that pass the courts are of a sex offence nature (sure I read that some where) so itís not enjoyable in the slightest. I was selected for a 6 week case which was a gang rape case which had video evidence.. luckily as I was walking to the juryís bench a guy I went to school with who was a junior defence barrister at the time had to make the court aware and back I turned! ... then the next case, another sex offence in the form of a class room assistant grooming two boys, who were now two young men.
    Good friend of mine had to do it soon after me and he was done and dusted in a morning.

  19. #19
    Master Reeny's Avatar
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    Check to see if there are any travel expenses allowances available, and state that the bus & train service are unavailable at 4am in the morning when he will need to set off to court for a 9am start, and do they want to have the receipts submitted for the 200-mile round trip by private taxi.
    I am sure there is an allowance available for public transport travel.

  20. #20
    Master Reeny's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andyg View Post
    I even offered to be his substitute because in 60 years neither me nor my wife have been selected for jury service, but alas not.
    Andy - maybe they are unaware of your balanced and unbiased views on the significant problems affecting our society today.

  21. #21
    Grand Master oldoakknives's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andyg View Post
    Earlier this month we received a letter addressed to my son (aged 18) requiring him to do jury service at the start of December.

    We appealed on a number of grounds.

    1) He is currently in his first term at university and this would impact his education.

    I'm sure a week or two at the most wouldn't be a game changer.

    2) His university is over 100 miles away

    2 or 3 hours away then.

    3) His university is in area which has a high Covid infection rate.

    Hardly surprising if there is a university in the area.

    Our appeal was rejected.

    I then rang them directly to again explain the situation, but was told he either had to attend (or face a summons and £1000 fine) or to change the date to some time in 2021 (which may or may not be accepted) In respect to Covid, they informed me, that my son should assume the Courts are open, but they would advise him of any changes with little or no notice.

    Anyway, my son has decided to leave Uni two weeks early (we will collect him and his laundry) so he get home and do his duty (assuming of course they donít cancel it). However I cannot help feeling that this a stupid for a number of reasons.

    1) He is 18 - so not an idea candidate as a jury (in my view).

    Jurors should be a mix of society, a younger viewpoint would be a plus.

    2) It will directly impact his studies, irrespective that he is paying rent for rooms he is unable to use. Plus he will miss the end of term party.

    A week or two probably at the most, and he stays with you so no extra cost involved.


    3) He will move from a high risk Convid zone to a low risk area, but will certainly not be social distancing.

    No doubt the courts will have social distancing measures in place. What he does outside that is up to him.


    I even offered to be his substitute because in 60 years neither me nor my wife have been selected for jury service, but alas not.

    The only upside is that he will come home early and gain experience of British Courts/Legal system without being in the dock.

    Still very annoying, but rant over.
    Last edited by oldoakknives; 19th October 2020 at 07:10.

  22. #22
    Master
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    Pretty sure there wonít be an end of term party at his uni, or any other uni, for that matter.

  23. #23
    Master Templogin's Avatar
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    Return a not guilty decision by post!

  24. #24
    Master reggie747's Avatar
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    Forward the letter to Lewis Hamilton. He might oblige you with being his #1 superfan ??

  25. #25
    Master
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    In relation to the OP's point my comment is only that I think 18 is probably too young for most young people to be making potentially life changing decisions for others. I fully appreciate this is a very general statement and that some 18yr olds could be more than capable.

    I'll never forget my jury experience at 49yrs of age. We were unable to reach a majority decision as 3 young ladies, early twenties, persistently refused to overlook basing their decision substantially on evidence which the judge specifically directed us to ignore. There really should be an IQ test to sit on a jury.

  26. #26
    Iíve done JS twice and agree with most of your points
    Only comment Iíd make is that despite his lack of life experience at 18 Iíll bet heís got more common sense than some of the utter retards Iíve encountered on juries.

  27. #27
    Grand Master Andyg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saint-Just View Post
    I disagree. He can vote, he can serve in the Forces or the Police, there is no reason he canít be a juror.

    And yes, I believe it is randomised and that is also why Andy canít replace him.

    I am also surprised he couldnít differ it though.

    That said, the party excuse is a new low.

    It wasnít used as an excuse.

    Whoever does not know how to hit the nail on the head should be asked not to hit it at all.
    Friedrich Nietzsche


  28. #28
    Grand Master Andyg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by thieuster View Post
    Learning new things here about the British Court and Justice system.

    I shouldn't express my opinion being a foreigner, but with a 19 y/o son at the uni, I can relate to your situation. I think that your arguments are (from a father's point of view) are valid. Simple, I would pay the fine for him.

    Again, my opinion is not an expression of what I think think about the Court system.

    Menno
    I would happily pay, however the summons would be against my son.

    Whoever does not know how to hit the nail on the head should be asked not to hit it at all.
    Friedrich Nietzsche


  29. #29
    Grand Master Saint-Just's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andyg View Post
    It wasnít used as an excuse.
    I have no doubt that you had the sense to avoid mentioning it in your request, but it was used by you here, albeit as a minor point.
    'Against stupidity, the gods themselves struggle in vain' - Schiller.

  30. #30
    Grand Master Andyg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by seabiscuit View Post
    Pretty sure there wonít be an end of term party at his uni, or any other uni, for that matter.
    Point missed I feel. He has already missed out on Freshers, he will continue to pay £156/week for his room whilst doing jury service, he will miss out on any activities the university, room mates, etc plan in the run up to Christmas through no fault of his own, simply because the Jury service are not prepared to delay his call up until his education is finished. They will after all have another 60 years (hopefully) to call him up.

    Whoever does not know how to hit the nail on the head should be asked not to hit it at all.
    Friedrich Nietzsche


  31. #31
    Master Alansmithee's Avatar
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    Isn't the correct TZ-UK answer:


    Clearly a snowflake who needs to get his dad to ring up for him. I blame the parents. Back in my day we would have done jury service but it's all human rights now - I blame the EU.

  32. #32
    Grand Master Saint-Just's Avatar
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    Itís called doing your duty. Itís not Ďat your convenienceí.
    If it had been during the summer holidays you would still be moaning that it spoiling his hard earned fun.
    'Against stupidity, the gods themselves struggle in vain' - Schiller.

  33. #33
    Master village's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andyg View Post
    Point missed I feel. He has already missed out on Freshers, he will continue to pay £156/week for his room whilst doing jury service, he will miss out on any activities the university, room mates, etc plan in the run up to Christmas through no fault of his own, simply because the Jury service are not prepared to delay his call up until his education is finished. They will after all have another 60 years (hopefully) to call him up.
    You havenít clarified yet whether you attempted to get his jury service cancelled altogether or have asked for it to be deferred.

  34. #34
    Master
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    bad luck, i have never been asked.

    i would imagine many people have a sudden illness on jury day and phone in sick

  35. #35
    Master MakeColdplayHistory's Avatar
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    Jury's should be made up of a cross-section of adult society. I wouldn't want a jury of twelve 18 year olds but one on the panel will provide balance to some of the old duffers.

    So sorry he can't make the party.

  36. #36
    I did jury service about 10 years ago, at the same time I was doing my MBA whilst working. It was perfect for me, I spent 2 weeks in a quiet room doing my coursework whilst getting paid from work! I did 2 cases, 1 was a fight and the other a dreadful child abuse case from the 60's. The guy was found guilty but was in his 80's at the time.

    We never had to stay overnight and the worse thing is we left the same way the public did, which I thought was a tad risky. The defendant in the assault case family clearly saw us all sat in the jury box then we had to walk past them outside as we left!

    Some aspects were a total farce, if it wasn't for my coursework sitting around idle for 2 weeks would have been painful. When we broke to deliberate for the assault case, one of the guy's jury service was due to end but he wanted to stay longer so just kept disagreeing with us all so the case ran into the next day. I did get called 1 hour before the end of my final day but I just explained to the judge that I had a wedding to attend the following day and he let me leave.

    I did defer the first request then got called again shortly afterwards.

    Makes no sense for your son to be called especially when he is 100 miles away!

  37. #37
    I donít think anyone has opened the letter informing them theyíve been selected for Jury Service and thought ďYippee!Ē.
    When I did mine it was in the summer, in a lovely part of England, I met some very nice people and I never actually got picked to sit on a jury. I remember going back to work a fortnight after with a nice tan.
    A bit like going to university without the party at the end.

  38. #38
    Master Wolfie's Avatar
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    Agree with most points you made Andy - other point 1 - jurors need to represent the whole of your societyÖ. Iím sure heíll offer some good insight

    I suppose at least he can use it as a leaning experience

    Maybe he could do his online studies, when heís sat around waiting for things to happen?

  39. #39
    Grand Master Andyg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by village View Post
    You havenít clarified yet whether you attempted to get his jury service cancelled altogether or have asked for it to be deferred.
    We asked for it to be delayed until after his Uni (so 2024), but that was considered to long. I did suggest to my son that he asked for a deferment until the summer holiday, but he rightly said that would prevent him from sorting a summer holiday/job without having fixed dates for his jury service. Hence decided to get it over and done with now.

    Whoever does not know how to hit the nail on the head should be asked not to hit it at all.
    Friedrich Nietzsche


  40. #40
    Grand Master oldoakknives's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andyg View Post
    Point missed I feel. He has already missed out on Freshers, he will continue to pay £156/week for his room whilst doing jury service, he will miss out on any activities the university, room mates, etc plan in the run up to Christmas through no fault of his own, simply because the Jury service are not prepared to delay his call up until his education is finished. They will after all have another 60 years (hopefully) to call him up.
    Most people would have to pay rent/mortgage whilst doing jury service.
    ďThe more I learn about people, the more I like my dog.Ē

  41. #41
    Master
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    Alternative view..... why donít we all do our civic duty, awkward and irritating as it may be. I did it and hated it, but it was a duty to which I am liable for as a British Citizen.

    Sorry, itís a suck it up situation.

  42. #42
    Grand Master Saint-Just's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by b11ocx View Post
    Alternative view..... why donít we all do our civic duty, awkward and irritating as it may be. I did it and hated it, but it was a duty to which I am liable for as a British Citizen.

    Sorry, itís a suck it up situation.
    Not so alternative, judging by this thread.
    'Against stupidity, the gods themselves struggle in vain' - Schiller.

  43. #43
    Master Man of Kent's Avatar
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    I did it at 18. I enjoyed it, and felt I contributed to the process as much as anyone.
    Everyone should do it. Being at uni was no excuse for me either, and it shouldn't be for anyone else.

  44. #44
    Master blackal's Avatar
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    Missed freshers weekĒ, ďWill miss end of term partyĒ........... they read whiny.

    I got jury duty request, but despite thinking - ďthis could be interestingĒ. Asked to be excused on the basis of being self-employed and having to commit (or not) to random work offshore and could cost work/revenue of 3-4 weeks quite easily, for even a 2 day trial.

    I wonder if Ďcelebritiesí or perceived Ďcelebritiesí get an automatic Ďoutí?

  45. #45
    Master MakeColdplayHistory's Avatar
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    As an aside, I've always fancied doing jury service but never been selected. This despite the fact that everyone I know who's done it tells me it's either mind-numbingly boring or harrowing with nothing in between.

    I did however nearly appear as a witness for the defence for someone who I was 99% sure was guilty as charged. His defence involved a number of different elements including the fact that 'person X did action Y on date Z'. That was what I was witness to and pretty much the only link in the defence chain that was true. I got a couple of days off work, train fare, and a night in a hotel (and a night out with some old mates where I used to live (though i paid for it myself)). Then the case collapsed (on a technicality relating to his arrest) before I was called so we all had a pint and I got an early train home.

  46. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by Alansmithee View Post
    Isn't the correct TZ-UK answer:


    Clearly a snowflake who needs to get his dad to ring up for him. I blame the parents. Back in my day we would have done jury service but it's all human rights now - I blame the EU.
    To which could be added: if you don't like the laws in this country then leave.

    R
    Ignorance breeds Fear. Fear breeds Hatred. Hatred breeds Ignorance. Break the chain.

  47. #47
    Grand Master Saint-Just's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by blackal View Post
    I wonder if Ďcelebritiesí or perceived Ďcelebritiesí get an automatic Ďoutí?
    I would think so, to avoid bringing undue attention to the case, and be a distraction to the process.
    'Against stupidity, the gods themselves struggle in vain' - Schiller.

  48. #48
    Master
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    Several thoughts;

    1) Definitely inconvenient and annoying for the OP’s son; agreed

    2) it’s his civic duty, so he should do it and not try to wriggle out

    3) it’s actually quite interesting (I’ve done it once. Rape case and assault case. Got to be the foreman too)

    4) 18 is too young these days. 18 year olds back in the 1940’s and especially earlier, for example, were very different and grew up faster, maturing more rapidly by necessity. 18 year old these days (including myself and my friends when we were 18) don’t for the most part have the maturity or life experience to be making such decisions, and are likely simply to be lead and persuaded by the older jurors).

  49. #49
    Grand Master Saint-Just's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ach5 View Post
    4) 18 is too young these days. 18 year olds back in the 1940ís and especially earlier, for example, were very different and grew up faster, maturing more rapidly by necessity. 18 year old these days (including myself and my friends when we were 18) donít for the most part have the maturity or life experience to be making such decisions, and are likely simply to be lead and persuaded by the older jurors).
    You could also argue that he is likely to dissent just because.
    Again, if he is old enough to vote to contribute to the choice of our government (regardless of what his elders may say to persuade him to vote differently), if he is old enough to die for his country, and if he is old enough to arrest you because you're tired and emotional, he is old enough to listen to the arguments from the prosecution and from the defence, to assess the evidence, to listen to the judge's instructions and to come up with his verdict.
    'Against stupidity, the gods themselves struggle in vain' - Schiller.

  50. #50
    Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saint-Just View Post
    You could also argue that he is likely to dissent just because.
    Again, if he is old enough to vote to contribute to the choice of our government (regardless of what his elders may say to persuade him to vote differently), if he is old enough to die for his country, and if he is old enough to arrest you because you're tired and emotional, he is old enough to listen to the arguments from the prosecution and from the defence, to assess the evidence, to listen to the judge's instructions and to come up with his verdict.
    I donít think most modern 18 year olds are capable of any of those things. But thatís a different discussion.

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