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Thread: Jury service. A bit of a rant!

  1. #51
    Grand Master Saint-Just's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ach5 View Post
    I don’t think most modern 18 year olds are capable of any of those things. But that’s a different discussion.
    And maybe quite a valid one. But if that is the case, the age of majority must be raised. It is not the way History is going...
    'Against stupidity, the gods themselves struggle in vain' - Schiller.

  2. #52
    Master Alansmithee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ach5 View Post
    4) 18 is too young these days. 18 year olds back in the 1940’s and especially earlier, for example, were very different and grew up faster, maturing more rapidly by necessity. 18 year old these days (including myself and my friends when we were 18) don’t for the most part have the maturity or life experience to be making such decisions, and are likely simply to be lead and persuaded by the older jurors).

    But all the time on here I'm told that our young people on here need to "man up" and so on - what could be better?

  3. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by bigvic View Post
    I don’t think anyone has opened the letter informing them they’ve been selected for Jury Service and thought “Yippee!”.
    I did. Ive always wanted to Jury service as the whole justice process intrigues me. I did two cases, one for a guy breaking a restraining order to see his daughter (RO was to stay away from mother). Second was drugs ring, multiple people and £86k found in cash in a flat.

    On my last day i finished early, so i went into the public gallery and listened to another case regarding illegal drugs.

    i found it all fascinating. In fact if i ever get some free time, i may even go back and sit in on a case.

  4. #54
    Craftsman Bluemoon7's Avatar
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    I was called to do jury service at 18. It was the first case of its kind In the UK and involved an assault on a police officer (biting) by a man that had what was called HIV-3 at the time. It was just before HIV / Aids hit the UK press. We had experts brought in from far flung places (India, USA, UK) and it was intriguing and a bit scary for us all at the time, as we had a few days of experts explaining what it was, how at that time it was thought to be transmitted and projection rates for the UK and the world. We could only find the man guilty of assault on the WPC as the data for transmission via saliva was not conclusive. I also did an assault and a minor shoplifting case too. A bit scary at the time for a young fella that had missed the last four years of secondary school and at that point had never sat an exam in his life. Never felt out of my depth though. Should be fine for a young lad studying at university and may broaden his life experience a bit more.

    I have never felt that 18 is too young for jury service. Some of the 18, 19 and 20 year olds that I have worked with over the years have a level of maturity that is on par with people much older in years. If you treat young people like kids they tend to behave like kids. We should be empowering young people not disempowering them.

  5. #55
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    I got asked once when I was working overseas 6 weeks on/2 weeks off. I explained and was "removed from the system" no questions asked.

  6. #56
    Grand Master wileeeeeey's Avatar
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    End of term party? Are you serious?

  7. #57
    Master mondie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ralphy View Post
    To which could be added: if you don't like the laws in this country then leave.

    R
    Very wry and pointed Ralphy.

  8. #58
    Master SeanST150's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by aa388 View Post
    At 18 I was in some ****** part of the world with a rifle with someone trying to get us before we got them so I’ve no sympathy. And the party excuse what a *****joke. What’s the world coming to? Does he still get his *** wiped as well.


    Sent from my iPhone using TZ-UK mobile app
    I'd edit your post, this is G&D.

  9. #59
    So many 'able' people find a reason not to do it that I wonder what's left. I have a theory that most juries end up short on critical thinking ability as a result of the type of people who are able to swerve the call up.

  10. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by thieuster View Post
    I was only a little older when I joined in the late 70s. Or better: we all hád to join (conscription). About 50% of my roommates (infantery - non commissioned officers) were pointes out to go under the UN flag maintaining the peace in Libanon. I wasn’t selected. 8 went, 5 returned alive. 4 of them suffered from mental problems later in their lives. 1 of those 4 was captured by Al Fatah when their post was overrun. Being the group’s leader he got tortured.

    Like being selected as a jury member, it’s not always your free will. And some events can be life-changing.

    I’ve tried to read up on the UK system. In 1999, a Dutch newspaper did a background article saying that the government wanted to abolish the jury system. How’s that now?

    Another question: one can be confronted by a really gruesome case. Is there a form of counseling or support during or after the court period?

    Menno
    I joined in 77. A friend of mine was protesting the Brit embassy in Beirut during the problems and killed himself not long after he came back because he couldn’t cope. Give it another few years and the mental issues with Afghan and Iraq bite hard.


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  11. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jdh1 View Post
    So many 'able' people find a reason not to do it that I wonder what's left. I have a theory that most juries end up short on critical thinking ability as a result of the type of people who are able to swerve the call up.
    I was called and deferred in 1991 - it was in the middle of my Finals - and not contacted since. I'd happily do it now

  12. #62
    Quote Originally Posted by thieuster View Post

    I’ve tried to read up on the UK system. In 1999, a Dutch newspaper did a background article saying that the government wanted to abolish the jury system. How’s that now?
    AFAIK there's no talk or suggestion for a change here.

    Another question: one can be confronted by a really gruesome case. Is there a form of counseling or support during or after the court period?
    Not in England and Wales, but there is support in Scotland for jurors who've experienced trauma.
    R
    Ignorance breeds Fear. Fear breeds Hatred. Hatred breeds Ignorance. Break the chain.

  13. #63
    I was called just before I started my post grad, I called the court and explained the situation regarding needing to be at Uni a couple hundred of miles away, they accepted my explanation and sent a letter excusing me. I wonder if I’d had a different response if my Dad had called up for me?

  14. #64
    Grand Master magirus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by aa388 View Post
    At 18 I was in some ******** part of the world with a rifle with someone trying to get us before we got them so I’ve no sympathy. And the party excuse what a ******* joke. What’s the world coming to? Does he still get his ****wiped as well.


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    Quote Originally Posted by SeanST150 View Post
    I'd edit your post, this is G&D.
    Indeed, and also anyone quoting it in full.
    F.T.F.A.

  15. #65
    Craftsman Go Big's Avatar
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    I was called when I was in the middle of my A-Levels, and got excused.

    Never been asked again, but would do it.

  16. #66
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    I've just had my third call up in 10 years and wished premium bonds used the same "random" computer that the court system is using.

    No issues doing my civic duty, but equally the last two times have only highlighted all the faults in the system, it was to say the least a largely unproductive experience and frankly an expensive one too if self-employed. The two year rule should be changed to a five year rule and a cap of say 3 call ups to try to spread the burden a bit wider.

    I gather anyone asking for a deferment will automatically be granted it in practice, even if accepting the date initially and asking to subsequently be deferred up to 11 days before the actual date.

    Also bear in mind that if lockdown does occur, the jurors are apparently excused and treated as having served, so if you do get a summons for a potential lockdown date, an option is to accept the date to see if lockdown does look likely and then defer closer to the date.

  17. #67
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    A week of my 2 week jury service was spent as a member of the jury on a paedophile case. 2 of the jury were 18/19 year olds and I can’t help thinking going from reading Harry Potter over lunch to hearing the facts of the case must have been a shock to the system for them.

    On the plus side the 19 year jail sentence was a good result but I still have doubts about holidaying with a well known activity break chain.

  18. #68
    Grand Master Neil.C's Avatar
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    I've been called up twice in the past.

    I wrote back saying I was self employed and it would be difficult and costly to attend.

    The service was deferred both times.
    Cheers,
    Neil.

    My Speedmaster website:

    http://www.freewebs.com/neil271052

  19. #69
    Craftsman Kevin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andyg View Post
    Earlier this month we received a letter addressed to my son (aged 18) requiring him to do jury service at the start of December.

    We appealed on a number of grounds.

    1) He is currently in his first term at university and this would impact his education.
    2) His university is over 100 miles away
    3) His university is in area which has a high Covid infection rate.

    Our appeal was rejected.

    I then rang them directly to again explain the situation, but was told he either had to attend (or face a summons and £1000 fine) or to change the date to some time in 2021 (which may or may not be accepted) In respect to Covid, they informed me, that my son should assume the Courts are open, but they would advise him of any changes with little or no notice.

    Anyway, my son has decided to leave Uni two weeks early (we will collect him and his laundry) so he get home and do his duty (assuming of course they don’t cancel it). However I cannot help feeling that this a stupid for a number of reasons.

    1) He is 18 - so not an idea candidate as a jury (in my view).
    2) It will directly impact his studies, irrespective that he is paying rent for rooms he is unable to use. Plus he will miss the end of term party.
    3) He will move from a high risk Convid zone to a low risk area, but will certainly not be social distancing.

    I even offered to be his substitute because in 60 years neither me nor my wife have been selected for jury service, but alas not.

    The only upside is that he will come home early and gain experience of British Courts/Legal system without being in the dock.

    Still very annoying, but rant over.
    What has it got to do with you?

    Your son is over 18 it has nothing to do with you
    What is all this WE got a letter and WE appealed ?

    I am glad you weren’t allowed to substitute for your son
    We had a control freak on the jury I was on who tried to tell everyone he would be the foreman of the jury.
    We told him we would vote and he was so pissed off When he didn’t get the job!

  20. #70
    Craftsman Kevin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ach5 View Post

    4) 18 is too young these days. 18 year olds back in the 1940’s and especially earlier, for example, were very different and grew up faster, maturing more rapidly by necessity. 18 year old these days (including myself and my friends when we were 18) don’t for the most part have the maturity or life experience to be making such decisions, and are likely simply to be lead and persuaded by the older jurors).
    That wasn’t my experience as a juror.
    We had a big age range on the jury with one 18 year old and two 19 year olds.
    It was a two week trial and we all saw quite a bit of each other in the jury room .
    They took their responsibilities very seriously and discharged them very well. The jury was strengthened by being a cross section of society including age and sex.

  21. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin View Post
    That wasn’t my experience as a juror.
    We had a big age range on the jury with one 18 year old and two 19 year olds.
    It was a two week trial and we all saw quite a bit of each other in the jury room .
    They took their responsibilities very seriously and discharged them very well. The jury was strengthened by being a cross section of society including age and sex.
    Your experience is similar to mine, fairly big age range including one very young woman who proved rather useful and interesting in the deliberations on what was largely a joke of a case that the vast majority of us agreed should never have got to court. Accused had lived through several years of hell, trial lasted almost 2 weeks, multiple counts of 'abuse' to minors. We acquitted within 3 hours, having almost reached verdicts within 30 minutes, however, the young lady held some interesting viewpoints that made some think more carefully. I'd like to think we served justice accurately. Was an interesting yet frustrating experience that also cost me a chunk financially (self employed) I'd do it again, if asked.

  22. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin View Post
    What has it got to do with you?

    Your son is over 18 it has nothing to do with you
    What is all this WE got a letter and WE appealed ?

    I am glad you weren’t allowed to substitute for your son
    We had a control freak on the jury I was on who tried to tell everyone he would be the foreman of the jury.
    We told him we would vote and he was so pissed off When he didn’t get the job!
    Don't be an arse. Man tries to help son, what a controversy!

  23. #73
    Grand Master Seamaster73's Avatar
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    I was called up a couple of years ago and got the one deferment you're allowed on the basis that I was working in Budapest at the time.

    Did my bit for civil society the second time. The most boring two weeks I've ever spent in my life. A fortnight hanging around what I can only describe as the airport departure lounge from hell.

    As for the actual business of deliberating on the facts of a case, there are strict rules about discussing such matters so I won't. What I will say however, is that I have no truck with woke idiots who bandy around the word "racist" to describe all and sundry — I spent hours in a room with several examples of the real thing and it made me despair for the whole concept of trial by one's peers.

  24. #74
    SydR
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    I’ve never been called but son has been called twice and my daughter once.

    My son has just turned 19 when first called. I left him to it.

    As for missing the end of term party! Surely you wrote that in jest?!

  25. #75
    Grand Master Saint-Just's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SydR View Post
    As for missing the end of term party! Surely you wrote that in jest?!
    Andy does many things but he doesn't do jest.
    'Against stupidity, the gods themselves struggle in vain' - Schiller.

  26. #76
    Grand Master ryanb741's Avatar
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    I've done it 3 times (and I'm 43). Twice at Isleworth Crown Court when I lived in Acton and once at Kingston Crown Court.

    The Isleworth cases were predominately Heathrow related drug smuggling cases. Kingston I can't really go into detail on.

  27. #77
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    I did jury duty a few years ago, the case was causing death by dangerous driving. More than half of the jury didn’t even have a driving license, so life experience of any given case appears irrelevant in the eyes of the law and court.
    I have a few friends who’ve received the ‘invitation” and have ignored it. The issue for the OP now, is that appealing against the summons has raised his head above the parapet and clearly shows the letter was received, so it may cause problems if he doesn’t appear, when requested, when the court knows he got it.

  28. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by ryanb741 View Post
    I've done it 3 times (and I'm 43). Twice at Isleworth Crown Court when I lived in Acton and once at Kingston Crown Court.

    The Isleworth cases were predominately Heathrow related drug smuggling cases. Kingston I can't really go into detail on.
    I used to live in Isleworth.

    Now I'm in Winchester, it's a tier 1 court and the bit I particularly object to is being paraded in front of a judge some of which try to belittle you even if you provide a perfectly valid reason why you can't spare 12 weeks to serve on some of the long trials. In fact a lot of the trials there last longer than the 2 weeks, so you spend the time asking to be put up for shorter trials (no sir - it is random selection) and being made to feel bad about spending your time asking to be excused from long trials.

  29. #79
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    Called up to do jury service 4 times....


  30. #80
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    Surely it would have come better from your son. I certainly won’t be making phone calls like this on behalf of my children when they’re 18.

  31. #81
    Quote Originally Posted by b11ocx View Post
    Alternative view..... why don’t we all do our civic duty, awkward and irritating as it may be. I did it and hated it, but it was a duty to which I am liable for as a British Citizen.

    Sorry, it’s a suck it up situation.
    +1, except I didn't hate the experience.

  32. #82
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    You gotta do what you gotta do, unless you don’t.

  33. #83
    Grand Master Mr Curta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stanford View Post
    +1, except I didn't hate the experience.
    I found it all very interesting.
    Don't just do something, sit there. - TNH

  34. #84
    Grand Master Andyg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Barton Red View Post
    I was called just before I started my post grad, I called the court and explained the situation regarding needing to be at Uni a couple hundred of miles away, they accepted my explanation and sent a letter excusing me. I wonder if I’d had a different response if my Dad had called up for me?
    We had already provided a written appeal. I tried speaking to them, but with the same result.

    But never mind, he only has to make 100+ mile journey, miss 2 weeks of his education, effectively lose 2 weeks rent on his rooms(both of his he is funding), so he can do his civil duty (assuming of course he is selected)

    It will be nice to have him home all the same.

    Whoever does not know how to hit the nail on the head should be asked not to hit it at all.
    Friedrich Nietzsche


  35. #85
    Master Kirk280's Avatar
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    Perhaps he’ll develop covid symptoms just before the trial.

  36. #86
    Grand Master Andyg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SydR View Post
    I’ve never been called but son has been called twice and my daughter once.

    My son has just turned 19 when first called. I left him to it.

    As for missing the end of term party! Surely you wrote that in jest?!
    It’s is first term at Uni and was looking forward to having a Christmas party with the other 9 students who share his flat, but that wasn’t the reason for the appeal.

    He is paying 9k a year for his education (about 34 weeks worth), but is losing 2 weeks (assuming of course it’s not a trial that runs over a few months, I which case it will be much more), plus the £158/weeks for a room he cannot even occupy. It just seems unfair on him especially given the number of people currently on furlough at the moment.

    As for those willing to judge his commitment to doing his bit for the community, he just completed his DoE Gold, for which he has done over 100 hours unpaid charity service in the past 12 months.

    Whoever does not know how to hit the nail on the head should be asked not to hit it at all.
    Friedrich Nietzsche


  37. #87
    Grand Master Saint-Just's Avatar
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    First proper life lesson: Life is not fair.
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  38. #88
    Craftsman Kevin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andyg View Post

    As for those willing to judge his commitment to doing his bit for the community, he just completed his DoE Gold, for which he has done over 100 hours unpaid charity service in the past 12 months.
    I don't think anyone has made any comment about your son or his commitment

  39. #89
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    i was called about 15 years ago, basically sat in a room reading for about 5 hours a day for a week as every case went to plea bargain. never got to a courtroom.
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  40. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andyg View Post
    Complain....moan....etc.
    I suspect this thread has not gone the way you wanted it to.

  41. #91
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    The landlord, one of a breed of well-known altrurists, with absolutely no self-interest or profit motive whatsoever, will surely refund his two weeks rent, after all your son is doing his civic duty? Otherwise, that's life Jim.

  42. #92
    Grand Master thieuster's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andyg View Post
    It’s is first term at Uni and was looking forward to having a Christmas party with the other 9 students who share his flat, but that wasn’t the reason for the appeal.

    He is paying 9k a year for his education (about 34 weeks worth), but is losing 2 weeks (assuming of course it’s not a trial that runs over a few months, I which case it will be much more), plus the £158/weeks for a room he cannot even occupy. It just seems unfair on him especially given the number of people currently on furlough at the moment.

    As for those willing to judge his commitment to doing his bit for the community, he just completed his DoE Gold, for which he has done over 100 hours unpaid charity service in the past 12 months.
    So it will cost him: 9K/34*2+2x158=845 gbp, travel costs not included. And the fine is 1000 gbp?

    Put it on a 'scale': civic life (civic duty) vs academic life. It costs about the same. Apart from that, I would not be too sure that the Christmas-party-with-10 will happen under these circumstances.

    M.
    Last edited by thieuster; 20th October 2020 at 06:57.

  43. #93
    Quote Originally Posted by Man of Kent View Post
    I did it at 18. I enjoyed it, and felt I contributed to the process as much as anyone.
    Everyone should do it. Being at uni was no excuse for me either, and it shouldn't be for anyone else.
    Agree. I too did it at 18/19. Fresh out of college and just started my first job. I enjoyed the experience and certainly contributed as much or more than anyone else on the jury.

  44. #94
    Grand Master number2's Avatar
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    ''thy fate is the common fate of all, Into each life some rain must fall'',
    "Once is happenstance. Twice is coincidence. The third time it's enemy action."

    'Populism, the last refuge of a Tory scoundrel'.

  45. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by chrisparker View Post
    and certainly contributed as much or more than anyone else on the jury.
    100% of people consider themselves ‘above average’ (TFIC!)

  46. #96
    Grand Master Andyg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by village View Post
    I suspect this thread has not gone the way you wanted it to.

    I was hoping that someone might be able to offer some advice based upon personal experience.

    Alas it would seem that the best advice was to simply ignore the letter, but that ship has sailed.

    Whoever does not know how to hit the nail on the head should be asked not to hit it at all.
    Friedrich Nietzsche


  47. #97
    Grand Master Andyg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Templogin View Post
    The landlord, one of a breed of well-known altrurists, with absolutely no self-interest or profit motive whatsoever, will surely refund his two weeks rent, after all your son is doing his civic duty? Otherwise, that's life Jim.
    The landlord is aligned to the same group who is charging my son for his education whilst also demanding him to attend Jury Service.

    Whoever does not know how to hit the nail on the head should be asked not to hit it at all.
    Friedrich Nietzsche


  48. #98
    Grand Master Onelasttime's Avatar
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    I’m still confused about how they thought a party of 10 was going to go ahead?

    Edit: classed as one household. Doh!
    Last edited by Onelasttime; 20th October 2020 at 08:34.

  49. #99
    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin View Post
    I don't think anyone has made any comment about your son or his commitment
    I don't think so either.

    As a factor in this rant is about the cost of the rent in the private sector, accommodation in the halls of residence would have been a better financial choice - assuming there is a hall of residence.

    R
    Ignorance breeds Fear. Fear breeds Hatred. Hatred breeds Ignorance. Break the chain.

  50. #100
    Grand Master number2's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andyg View Post
    The landlord is aligned to the same group who is charging my son for his education whilst also demanding him to attend Jury Service.
    Other groups are available but if we insist on ticking the same box we shouldn't be surprised if nothing changes.
    "Once is happenstance. Twice is coincidence. The third time it's enemy action."

    'Populism, the last refuge of a Tory scoundrel'.

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